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Lip Man 1
09-19-2004, 11:58 AM
From Tony Ginnetti's story in the Sun-Times:

"Home runs are not what manager Ozzie Guillen wants his team to be about, and he already has convinced general manager Ken Williams that a different type of team must be assembled for the Sox to become a winner.

''The way I want this team to be, it's not going to look like the White Sox to a lot of people. I want defense and people who can run, because those two things never struggle,'' Guillen said Saturday.

''And pitching. [Hitting coach] Greg Walker won't want to hear that, but that's the way I want to go.''

The Sox have hit an American League-leading 128 home runs at home, and 211 overall to rank third in the league.

But after seeing their power-hitting team fall by the wayside to the balanced Minnesota Twins the last three seasons, it hasn't been difficult for Guillen to bring Williams and the Sox brass around to his way of thinking.

''Kenny and I already have talked and we're on the same page,'' Guillen said. ''Who's going to be here, I don't know. I have to respect my players who are here with me now, but I don't know who will be here next year.''

Other faces will change, too, though Guillen doesn't think the rebuilding process will take years.

''The base is here. With the pitching staff we have, we believe we're not too far from getting one more [starter] and one more guy for the bullpen to help [as a setup man for] Shingo [Takatsu]. That's the base of my team. We have a long winter to work on it.

''This team had the same people for so many years. Let's see now [changing it]. We have to catch the ball and play defense and do baseball stuff. We hit home runs and RBI, but we're last [actually eighth] in on-base percentage.

''Anaheim and Florida did it with good pitching and speed,'' he said of the last two World Series winners.''

Also a story in the Tribune says the Williams is looking at replacing at least 5 of the 9 starting positions on the club. The story says Williams is considering changes at 3B (goodbye Mr. Crede), C, RF, SS, 2B and either LF or 1B.

Assuming that's true it will be interesting to see how many holes Williams can fill. It also will be painfully apparent that with his budgetary limitations he won't be able to fill them all. Coupled with the overwhelming odds that the Sox won't be able to jell right off the bat, it looks like another difficult season ahead in 2005. Short of a miracle of course (Sox ownership's best friend!)

Lip

batmanZoSo
09-19-2004, 12:12 PM
From Tony Ginnetti's story in the Sun-Times:

"Home runs are not what manager Ozzie Guillen wants his team to be about, and he already has convinced general manager Ken Williams that a different type of team must be assembled for the Sox to become a winner.

''The way I want this team to be, it's not going to look like the White Sox to a lot of people. I want defense and people who can run, because those two things never struggle,'' Guillen said Saturday.

''And pitching. [Hitting coach] Greg Walker won't want to hear that, but that's the way I want to go.''

The Sox have hit an American League-leading 128 home runs at home, and 211 overall to rank third in the league.

But after seeing their power-hitting team fall by the wayside to the balanced Minnesota Twins the last three seasons, it hasn't been difficult for Guillen to bring Williams and the Sox brass around to his way of thinking.

''Kenny and I already have talked and we're on the same page,'' Guillen said. ''Who's going to be here, I don't know. I have to respect my players who are here with me now, but I don't know who will be here next year.''

Other faces will change, too, though Guillen doesn't think the rebuilding process will take years.

''The base is here. With the pitching staff we have, we believe we're not too far from getting one more [starter] and one more guy for the bullpen to help [as a setup man for] Shingo [Takatsu]. That's the base of my team. We have a long winter to work on it.

''This team had the same people for so many years. Let's see now [changing it]. We have to catch the ball and play defense and do baseball stuff. We hit home runs and RBI, but we're last [actually eighth] in on-base percentage.

''Anaheim and Florida did it with good pitching and speed,'' he said of the last two World Series winners.''

Also a story in the Tribune says the Williams is looking at replacing at least 5 of the 9 starting positions on the club. The story says Williams is considering changes at 3B (goodbye Mr. Crede), C, RF, SS, 2B and either LF or 1B.

Assuming that's true it will be interesting to see how many holes Williams can fill. It also will be painfully apparent that with his budgetary limitations he won't be able to fill them all. Coupled with the overwhelming odds that the Sox won't be able to jell right off the bat, it looks like another difficult season ahead in 2005. Short of a miracle of course (Sox ownership's best friend!)

Lip

Thank god they're both in agreement and they both see the problem with the current team. Not only that, they want what we want, so if they go out and do it and we still lose, we fans can't b####.
:)

balke
09-19-2004, 12:16 PM
Thank god they're both in agreement and they both see the problem with the current team. Not only that, they want what we want, so if they go out and do it and we still lose, we fans can't b####.
:)
It just flip-flops. I hate small-ball, hehe. But if they don't trade Frank, I'll still go to games. I have a nervous sick feeling they are going to try to deal him though. Ozzie came onto the team taking hacks at Frank, no reason he wouldn't try to put the axe in his back while he has a chance this offseason.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2004, 12:19 PM
It just flip-flops. I hate small-ball, hehe. But if they don't trade Frank, I'll still go to games. I have a nervous sick feeling they are going to try to deal him though. Ozzie came onto the team taking hacks at Frank, no reason he wouldn't try to put the axe in his back while he has a chance this offseason.Your post reminds me of a very important truth.

I would like to note a corollary to H. Vickery's Law (the one about good things for the Sox means disaster is looming around the corner). My corollary is simple:

"Never underestimate how cheap, timid, and stupid the Chicago White Sox can be."

Thank you. I'll be here all week.
:bandance:

jeremyb1
09-19-2004, 12:29 PM
These are going to be a really tough next few years in my opinion. The heartbreak of the last several seasons has been tough but personally I think I'm going to find it even harder if we're below .500 and I have to struggle to force myself to watch and attend games.

The pitching is more or less already in place with Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, and Garland. We'll add one more pitcher and we don't have a ton in the way of resources to do so. Does anyone really think swapping some stolen bases and defense for guys like Paully and/or Carlos is going to turn what's been a well below .500 team the last several months into a contender? I'm terrified.

RKMeibalane
09-19-2004, 12:31 PM
It just flip-flops. I hate small-ball, hehe. But if they don't trade Frank, I'll still go to games. I have a nervous sick feeling they are going to try to deal him though. Ozzie came onto the team taking hacks at Frank, no reason he wouldn't try to put the axe in his back while he has a chance this offseason.
Frank has an option in his contract for next season, which he has already said he will exercise. Besides, Thomas is 10-5 player, so the Sox cannot trade him unless he agrees to the deal. He will be here next season regardless of what Guillen and Williams want. Having said that, I don't think Ozzie and KW believe that Frank is the problem on this team. If anything, seeing how this team has come apart in Frank's absence should have convinced those two that Frank is the Chicago White Sox.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2004, 12:50 PM
....Having said that, I don't think Ozzie and KW believe that Frank is the problem on this team. If anything, seeing how this team has come apart in Frank's absence should have convinced those two that Frank is the Chicago White Sox.
Of course there was no reason for Ozzie to have taken the cheap shots at Frank he actually did make at Frank during his introductory press conference last year. However that didn't stop him for doing so, did it?

PHG's Corollary:
Never underestimate how cheap, timid, and stupid the Chicago White Sox can be.

mdep524
09-19-2004, 12:57 PM
I read the Cubune story today, but I am getting worried. I am outspoken in my desire for this team to be overhauled for next year, BUT.. the more I hear Ozzie talk about it, the worse I anticipate it turning out. I just don't have confidence in KW and Ozzie to do this the right way- I see them targeting the wrong players, a bunch of talentless scraps that haven't distinguished themselves in any way in the majors (likely with low OBP, good speed, not baseball smart). Those players, like Willie Harris, Juan Uribe, Wilson Valdez, etc., may be cheap and attainable, but they do NOT improve the team just because they're not HR hitters.

I'm all for trading Paulie, but you can't just drain that much power (PK + Maggs) out of your line up and replace it with Juan Uribes. I hope the Sox understand the nuances, subtleties and complexities of balance, and smart, winning baseball players. But I fear they might simply change this team as a knee-jerk reaction and not actually improve it.

I don't know...I hope I'm wrong. I really really hope I'm wrong, and I'll be overjoyed to see KW make some shrewd moves this winter. There certainly is talent available and the Sox do have some assets to trade, so the opportunity is there. How will KW handle it?

Tragg
09-19-2004, 01:08 PM
These are going to be a really tough next few years in my opinion. The heartbreak of the last several seasons has been tough but personally I think I'm going to find it even harder if we're below .500 and I have to struggle to force myself to watch and attend games.

The pitching is more or less already in place with Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, and Garland. We'll add one more pitcher and we don't have a ton in the way of resources to do so. Does anyone really think swapping some stolen bases and defense for guys like Paully and/or Carlos is going to turn what's been a well below .500 team the last several months into a contender? I'm terrified.The loss of CL or PK will hurt a lot if we don't get good starting pitching. But never underestimate the "power" of a lead-off hitter; that would be my first priority offensively considering we haven't had one in ages.


Year 1
Trade PK (CL if CL can't play first) for a defensive catcher, a good SS prospect and a lead-off hitter, preferably a CF.
Trade some of our pitching prospects for a SS prospect.
Sign one bullpen arm for 2-3 million.
Sign a starter for 5 millionish
Sign a veteran SS cheap for 1-2 years for 2 million.
Move CL to first (if not, perhaps trade CL instead of PK); move Rowand to left.
CF, Rowand, Frank, Lee, Everett, Uribe, Crede, SS, C
MB, FG, JC, JG, new pitcher
ST, DM, new pitcher
From salary, losing Valentin ($5 mill), Maggs ($9 mill), Koch ($3 mill), Konerko (8 mill) for a net loss of $25 mill; added Contreras ( 6 mill) Everett (4 mill), Garcia (9 mill), CF (say 6 mill), pitcher (5 mill), bullpen (3 mill) for a gain of $33 mill or a net gain of $8 mill, which seems to be within JR's parameters.

By year 2, one of the SS prospects should be ready, one of our bevy of outfield prospects should be ready. We might have to sign or trade for a 3B, but at least Crede can catch-not enough for a 3B, but we can wait another year. Anyway, the year 2 work could be done via free agency, adding another 8 mill seems reasonable.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2004, 01:10 PM
I read the Cubune story today, but I am getting worried. I am outspoken in my desire for this team to be overhauled for next year, BUT.. the more I hear Ozzie talk about it, the worse I anticipate it turning out....?I agree. This is a team that needs work, but it's a lot closer to reaching paydirt than anyone inside the Sox front office appears to understand. Instead of using a scalpel they appear ready to go after the Sox roster with a meat tenderizer. Predictably they'll pulverize all the good parts and leave us with all the cheap cuts and entrails... then get pissed off when the team loses and nobody shows up to watch.

And we all know what happens after that.
:cool:

:ozzie :KW :reinsy
"It's all your fault!"

Tragg
09-19-2004, 01:20 PM
I agree. This is a team that needs work, but it's a lot closer to reaching paydirt than anyone inside the Sox front office appears to understand. Instead of using a scalpel they appear ready to go after the Sox roster with a meat tenderizer. Predictably they'll pulverize all the good parts and leave us with all the cheap cuts and entrails... then get pissed off when the team loses and nobody shows up to watch.

And we all know what happens after that.
The thing is, how much meat do we have?

Considering we won't trade Garcia, the two decent relievers we have, the only possible meat cleaver ops are:

Buerhle---that would be insane, against the trend of what KW's doing and what they say they want, but I guess it's possible.

Rowand---I seriously doubt it

Konerko/Lee---the fact is we have to trade ONE of these players; if they trade both, then it would be a cleaver.

Frank- possible I guess but unlikely and would go against the new OBP philosophy that they puport to hold. If they trade him, that would be a cleaver.

The rest I'm sure you'd agree are entrails.

Thus the only real meat that appears likely is if we trade BOTH PK and CL, which I admit they may do and which wouldn't be good, imo.

MRKARNO
09-19-2004, 01:34 PM
If we are positioning ourselves for a "pitching and smallball" team then we are headed towards disaster. Our park does not allow for that. It's a bigball and groundball/strikeout park. If you dont have power in this park, you will lose because that's what it's suited for. KW and Ozzie don't seem to understand that our pitching problems stem from our homer-happy ballpark and that getting rid of our home run hitters will make it so that we are not taking advantage of the benefits of playing in a homer happy park. Once again, KW and Ozzie are all talk, but this course of action will likely end it failure. I am not a big KW critic and actually have been a KW defender in the past, but this is just the wrong line of thinking.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2004, 01:34 PM
The thing is, how much meat do we have? I posted about this in the Point your finger (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=499271#post499271)thread last week.

The only obstacle to making the necessary moves is the stupidity of the Sox front office. Here are the key moves, none of them take a brain surgeon to figure out.

Jon Garland isn't traded unless we get a boatload for him. Otherwise he becomes #5.
"Sell High" on Paul Konerko. Ask the world for Carlos Lee and trade him if you get it.
Solidify the rotation with at least two more frontline pitchers. Unlike the previous regime, don't make excuses and be willing to pay the going rate.
Get a leadoff man. Retire Joe Crede. Put the Alomars out to pasture.
I say we need two frontline pitchers because this will strengthen our bullpen, too. Pitching is the only asset in baseball you can never have enough of precisely because every *better pitcher* you add knocks the absolute worst pitcher completely off the team. Thus Garland might be needed as a #5, but we could get lucky and be able to use him out of the 'pen, too. It depends on the performance and health of the other pitchers who are (obviously) better than he is.
:thumbsup:

I would trade Konerko and Lee if we get what we need to fill the holes noted above. I'm convinced Reinsdorf and Williams will never let that happen.

"Cheap, timid, and stupid" are the reasons why they won't.

Tragg
09-19-2004, 01:39 PM
If we are positioning ourselves for a "pitching and smallball" team then we are headed towards disaster. Our park does not allow for that. It's a bigball and groundball/strikeout park. If you dont have power in this park, you will lose because that's what it's suited for. KW and Ozzie don't seem to understand that our pitching problems stem from our homer-happy ballpark and that getting rid of our home run hitters will make it so that we are not taking advantage of the benefits of playing in a homer happy park. Once again, KW and Ozzie are all talk, but this course of action will likely end it failure. I am not a big KW critic and actually have been a KW defender in the past, but this is just the wrong line of thinking.
Is it a homer happy park because of the fences? If so, that should be easily correctable.

Wealz
09-19-2004, 01:50 PM
Aren't the Sox already a good defensive team? The pitching is there? This whole thing is backwards. Since when did the home run become a bad thing?

The Sox biggest problem is that they have too few good players who are cheap and too many "at best good" players who are expensive.

Tragg
09-19-2004, 02:08 PM
[QUOTE=Wealz]Aren't the Sox already a good defensive team? QUOTE]

Not from what I can see.

MRKARNO
09-19-2004, 02:11 PM
Not from what I can see.
Well where exactly are we weak defensively?

Daver
09-19-2004, 02:17 PM
Well where exactly are we weak defensively?


Catcher, second base, centerfield, and to some extent shortstop.

Pretty bad positions to be weak in.

balke
09-19-2004, 02:20 PM
Catcher, second base, centerfield, and to some extent shortstop.

Pretty bad positions to be weak in.
Also, in the head, and in the depth. We need STRONG D with pitching. I'll admit, the D was okay for a while, but there needs to be good relief off the bench.

RKMeibalane
09-19-2004, 02:47 PM
Of course there was no reason for Ozzie to have taken the cheap shots at Frank he actually did make at Frank during his introductory press conference last year. However that didn't stop him for doing so, did it?

PHG's Corollary:
Never underestimate how cheap, timid, and stupid the Chicago White Sox can be.
Again, since Frank has said that he will exercise his option, what Guillen thinks doesn't really matter. Frank Thomas will be wearing a Chicago White Sox uniform in 2005, and beyond.

balke
09-19-2004, 02:58 PM
Again, since Frank has said that he will exercise his option, what Guillen thinks doesn't really matter. Frank Thomas will be wearing a Chicago White Sox uniform in 2005, and beyond.
Exercising the option, then being asked to change teams still isn't ruled out. I would like to think Frank is happy here, but look at the people he's working w/. we'll see. I hope you're right, and I'm wrong.

soxtalker
09-19-2004, 03:27 PM
Frank has an option in his contract for next season, which he has already said he will exercise. Besides, Thomas is 10-5 player, so the Sox cannot trade him unless he agrees to the deal. He will be here next season regardless of what Guillen and Williams want. Having said that, I don't think Ozzie and KW believe that Frank is the problem on this team. If anything, seeing how this team has come apart in Frank's absence should have convinced those two that Frank is the Chicago White Sox.

I also don't see any indication that Ozzie and KW think that Frank is the problem. He had a great season going when he was injured with very high OBP and clearly protecting other batters. He also seemed to be happy with Ozzie as manager. And if they did want him to leave, he probably doesn't have as much trade value as Konerko and Lee, due to his contract, age, and DH position. So, I don't understand the great concern about Ozzie and KW shoving him out the door.

batmanZoSo
09-19-2004, 03:30 PM
These are going to be a really tough next few years in my opinion. The heartbreak of the last several seasons has been tough but personally I think I'm going to find it even harder if we're below .500 and I have to struggle to force myself to watch and attend games.

The pitching is more or less already in place with Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, and Garland. We'll add one more pitcher and we don't have a ton in the way of resources to do so. Does anyone really think swapping some stolen bases and defense for guys like Paully and/or Carlos is going to turn what's been a well below .500 team the last several months into a contender? I'm terrified.

No, but getting a .430 on-base slugger back in the lineup won't hurt.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2004, 03:44 PM
I also don't see any indication that Ozzie and KW think that Frank is the problem. He had a great season going when he was injured with very high OBP and clearly protecting other batters. He also seemed to be happy with Ozzie as manager. And if they did want him to leave, he probably doesn't have as much trade value as Konerko and Lee, due to his contract, age, and DH position. So, I don't understand the great concern about Ozzie and KW shoving him out the door.
I guess you don't remember Williams taking shots at Frank when he refused to serve as a "decoy" sitting on the bench with a broken foot instead of getting treatment.

There is really no level of stupidity the Sox aren't capable of. If the Sox make Frank miserable enough, he'll waive his no-trade rights.

You still think Frank will be here next year and through the end of his career? Think twice.

Cheap, timid, and stupid.

RKMeibalane
09-19-2004, 04:09 PM
I guess you don't remember Williams taking shots at Frank when he refused to serve as a "decoy" sitting on the bench with a broken foot instead of getting treatment.

There is really no level of stupidity the Sox aren't capable of. If the Sox make Frank miserable enough, he'll waive his no-trade rights.

You still think Frank will be here next year and through the end of his career? Think twice.

Cheap, timid, and stupid.
If Williams does run Frank Thomas out of town, he's shooting himself in the foot. I've said numerous times that if Frank is shoved out the door, I'm done with this team until Reinsdorf sells. I don't see any point in supporting an organization that treats its greatest player like ****. A number of others here feel the same way. KW is welcome to do whatever he wants to change the look of the ballclub, but he needs to realize that fans may not be on board with all of the changes he has in mind.

Frater Perdurabo
09-19-2004, 04:45 PM
Catcher, second base, centerfield, and to some extent shortstop.

Pretty bad positions to be weak in.
Agreed. :angry:

Frater Perdurabo
09-19-2004, 04:47 PM
The only obstacle to making the necessary moves is the stupidity of the Sox front office. Here are the key moves, none of them take a brain surgeon to figure out.

Jon Garland isn't traded unless we get a boatload for him. Otherwise he becomes #5.
"Sell High" on Paul Konerko. Ask the world for Carlos Lee and trade him if you get it.
Solidify the rotation with at least two more frontline pitchers. Unlike the previous regime, don't make excuses and be willing to pay the going rate.
Get a leadoff man. Retire Joe Crede. Put the Alomars out to pasture.
I say we need two frontline pitchers because this will strengthen our bullpen, too. Pitching is the only asset in baseball you can never have enough of precisely because every *better pitcher* you add knocks the absolute worst pitcher completely off the team. Thus Garland might be needed as a #5, but we could get lucky and be able to use him out of the 'pen, too. It depends on the performance and health of the other pitchers who are (obviously) better than he is.
:thumbsup:
I second the motion, except for the part about Crede. I'd give him another year. I have hope he can turn it around and be 2005's version of the 2004 Paul Konerko. Otherwise, :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Tragg
09-19-2004, 05:09 PM
Well where exactly are we weak defensively?
Two key positions we're really bad defensively---Catcher and CF
We are below average at 2nd and average at Short--the other two key positions.

And of the rest of the positions, only at 3rd are we above average: Lee's okay, Konerko is not okay (but it's first so not critical) and if Everett is playing right, then we're not okay there either.

Wealz
09-19-2004, 05:55 PM
Two key positions we're really bad defensively---Catcher and CF
We are below average at 2nd and average at Short--the other two key positions.
I disagree that they're really bad anywhere defensively. They're 3rd in the league in range factor, 4th in zone rating, and 7th in fielding percentage.

They should fix a pitching staff that leads the league in home runs allowed before addressing this defensive "problem".

soxtalker
09-19-2004, 05:57 PM
I guess you don't remember Williams taking shots at Frank when he refused to serve as a "decoy" sitting on the bench with a broken foot instead of getting treatment.

There is really no level of stupidity the Sox aren't capable of. If the Sox make Frank miserable enough, he'll waive his no-trade rights.

You still think Frank will be here next year and through the end of his career? Think twice.

Cheap, timid, and stupid.

I did forget about that one, though I had taken it as more of an example of KW's short fuse and lack of managerial people sense. But you are right; it certainly does indicate that KW doesn't have a tremendous love / respect for Frank. There are a few players for whom he may, I suppose. For example, I can't remember him making any such statements about Valentin, who has had a pretty bad season.

But Frank's not that easy to trade. He makes a lot of money (IIRC, more if he's traded) for a fellow that only can fill the DH role. The fact that he has already indicated that he'll be exercising his option next year is probably a good indication that he can't get a better deal on the open market. And I don't mean that as a knock on him. I don't want to see him traded. I just think that the Sox and Frank both realize that they are locked in a contract for which it makes it sense for Frank to stay.

Oh, and I don't doubt the ability of the organization -- at all levels -- to make stupid decisions. I'm awaiting these many off-season changes with anticipation, but also great trepidation.

DVsoxfan
09-19-2004, 06:21 PM
If KW decides to trade PK, which I think he should do, then he'd better realize that he's in the drivers seat in that type of trade. There's not many 40 hr. 100 RBI type 1b on the market. Sure there's Delgado, but he'd cost a fortune. What I'm saying is he should look to the Richie Sexson trade from last year. Milwakee got a lot of talent in that deal, and we should set the bar just as high. KW needs to demand a lot for PK. Maybe instead of signing a SP, we could get one in a trade for PK? I mean who knows, there are a lot of ways in which they could attack this. Bottom line is I hope with whoever KW decides to trade, I hope he doesn't get screwed. It should be a very active and interesting offseason for us.

MRKARNO
09-19-2004, 06:27 PM
Two key positions we're really bad defensively---Catcher and CF
We are below average at 2nd and average at Short--the other two key positions.

And of the rest of the positions, only at 3rd are we above average: Lee's okay, Konerko is not okay (but it's first so not critical) and if Everett is playing right, then we're not okay there either.
I'm going to take issue with pretty much all you've said.

We've had decent defense from our catchers the whole year. Burke and Davis have done a fine job behind the plate, especially Burke. Alomar is a bit of a defensive liablity however. At Centerfield, Aaron Rowand is one of the better fielding Centerfielders in the league due to his incredible range.

At second base we've had Harris, who's done a decent job and Uribe, who is one of the best defensive infielders in baseball. Only when Alomar has played 2nd have we had trouble. At Shortstop, Valentin hasnt been as bad as everyone likes to make it out because he has pretty good range to make up for some of his errors, but it we slide Uribe over, we're set. Lee hasn't made an error this year with 10 assists and good range. I dont know what else you want out of left field. Konerko is below average at first because of his range, but doesnt make too many mistakes. Everett isnt that great but whatever, it's right field. Crede has been a liability at third this year.

Overall we have a good defense so if Ozzie wants pitching and defense, he's got half of it. The other half will prove elusive.

Daver
09-19-2004, 06:56 PM
I'm going to take issue with pretty much all you've said.

We've had decent defense from our catchers the whole year. Burke and Davis have done a fine job behind the plate, especially Burke. Alomar is a bit of a defensive liablity however. At Centerfield, Aaron Rowand is one of the better fielding Centerfielders in the league due to his incredible range.

At second base we've had Harris, who's done a decent job and Uribe, who is one of the best defensive infielders in baseball.

What is your definition of a fine job?

Alomar is the only catcher on the staff that can call pitches and call a game.

Your assessment of Rowand is amusing, inaccurate, but amusing.

If you were to somehow combine both Uribe and Harris you might have a semblence of a good second baseman, but since that is impossible the position needs an upgrade, neither one of them is all that great at actually fielding the position.

I'll sit back while you dig up meaningless stats like range factor and fielding percentage to back your argument.

Wealz
09-19-2004, 07:24 PM
What is your definition of a fine job?

Alomar is the only catcher on the staff that can call pitches and call a game.

Your assessment of Rowand is amusing, inaccurate, but amusing.

If you were to somehow combine both Uribe and Harris you might have a semblence of a good second baseman, but since that is impossible the position needs an upgrade, neither one of them is all that great at actually fielding the position.

I'll sit back while you dig up meaningless stats like range factor and fielding percentage to back your argument.
You can't defense the home run.

Guillen prioritizing a defensive upgrade means we're further from a World Series than I originally thought.

daveeym
09-19-2004, 07:40 PM
I posted about this in the Point your finger (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=499271#post499271)thread last week.

The only obstacle to making the necessary moves is the stupidity of the Sox front office. Here are the key moves, none of them take a brain surgeon to figure out.

Jon Garland isn't traded unless we get a boatload for him. Otherwise he becomes #5.
"Sell High" on Paul Konerko. Ask the world for Carlos Lee and trade him if you get it.
Solidify the rotation with at least two more frontline pitchers. Unlike the previous regime, don't make excuses and be willing to pay the going rate.
Get a leadoff man. Retire Joe Crede. Put the Alomars out to pasture.
I say we need two frontline pitchers because this will strengthen our bullpen, too. Pitching is the only asset in baseball you can never have enough of precisely because every *better pitcher* you add knocks the absolute worst pitcher completely off the team. Thus Garland might be needed as a #5, but we could get lucky and be able to use him out of the 'pen, too. It depends on the performance and health of the other pitchers who are (obviously) better than he is.
:thumbsup:

I would trade Konerko and Lee if we get what we need to fill the holes noted above. I'm convinced Reinsdorf and Williams will never let that happen.

"Cheap, timid, and stupid" are the reasons why they won't. I agree with you here but how does that match up with you saying they need a scalpel and not a meat tenderizer???? That's the glaring holes and moves to be made and right there I would call that an attack by a meat tenderizer not a scalpel. There may be 6 potnetial all-stars in the day to day line up but they suck together.

Daver
09-19-2004, 07:41 PM
You can't defense the home run.

Guillen prioritizing a defensive upgrade means we're further from a World Series than I originally thought.

Guillen being the manager means the Sox are a long way from the world series.

Tragg
09-19-2004, 07:41 PM
I'm going to take issue with pretty much all you've said.

We've had decent defense from our catchers the whole year. Burke and Davis have done a fine job behind the plate, especially Burke. Alomar is a bit of a defensive liablity however. At Centerfield, Aaron Rowand is one of the better fielding Centerfielders in the league due to his incredible range.

At second base we've had Harris, who's done a decent job and Uribe, who is one of the best defensive infielders in baseball. Only when Alomar has played 2nd have we had trouble. At Shortstop, Valentin hasnt been as bad as everyone likes to make it out because he has pretty good range to make up for some of his errors, but it we slide Uribe over, we're set. Lee hasn't made an error this year with 10 assists and good range. I dont know what else you want out of left field. Konerko is below average at first because of his range, but doesnt make too many mistakes. Everett isnt that great but whatever, it's right field. Crede has been a liability at third this year.

Overall we have a good defense so if Ozzie wants pitching and defense, he's got half of it. The other half will prove elusive.
You probably see us play much more than I do so maybe you're right. But from my admittedly limited viewings, I have not seen good D from the catcher at all, and Rowand's range has escaped me. Konekro made a lot of key errors in prior years. Crede may have severe range limitations, that I haven't seen him enough to discern, but he seems to make most plays. If Valentin made 1.5 million instead of $5 million, I'd be willing to stick with him for another year or two. Our 2b look goofy out there to me, but again, maybe you're right- I see us play once a week.
An outfielder with an arm can keep a lot of runs from scoring- both in assists and threat of assists.

balke
09-19-2004, 07:49 PM
Guillen being the manager means the Sox are a long way from the world series.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:u-4jeGAVVBkJ:ca.yimg.com/i/ca/reuters/20031104/i/1611604031.jpg
"I already been once. Its nothing special".

Tragg
09-19-2004, 07:50 PM
If KW decides to trade PK, which I think he should do, then he'd better realize that he's in the drivers seat in that type of trade. There's not many 40 hr. 100 RBI type 1b on the market. Sure there's Delgado, but he'd cost a fortune. What I'm saying is he should look to the Richie Sexson trade from last year. Milwakee got a lot of talent in that deal, and we should set the bar just as high. KW needs to demand a lot for PK. Maybe instead of signing a SP, we could get one in a trade for PK? I mean who knows, there are a lot of ways in which they could attack this. Bottom line is I hope with whoever KW decides to trade, I hope he doesn't get screwed. It should be a very active and interesting offseason for us.
I agree with you- you need to be a good horsetrader. One suggestion, don't sound desparate. Don't pull a Mike "i'll trade my whole draft for Ricky Williams" Ditka.

DickAllen72
09-19-2004, 07:54 PM
Catcher, second base, centerfield, and to some extent shortstop.

Pretty bad positions to be weak in.

Both Willie Harris and Juan Uribe have been excellent defensively at second base. With Uribe at SS, Harris at 2B and Rowand in CF, the Sox are strong defensively up the middle.

A. Cavatica
09-19-2004, 07:58 PM
You can't defense the home run.
Yes, you can -- by moving the fences a long way back.

But you're right about us being a long way from a World Series. It doesn't matter if we have a power-oriented team in a bandbox or a speed-and-defense team in a big park. We're not going to win under the current regime.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2004, 08:01 PM
Gang:

The Sox will have three big boppers in the lineup next season, Thomas, Everett and either Konerko or Lee.

How in the hell many slow footed, swing for the fences, station to station guys do you need in the lineup? Isn't three home run hitters enough? This isn't beer league softball folks despite the factors of Comiskey Park.

And as far as the pitching unless you get a 5th starter AND make a massive overhaul to this garbage bullpen, it won't matter how many home run hitters you have in the lineup.

Lip

Daver
09-19-2004, 08:06 PM
Both Willie Harris and Juan Uribe have been excellent defensively at second base.

You have a strange and twisted perception of excellent that I am not familiar with.

batmanZoSo
09-19-2004, 08:35 PM
What is your definition of a fine job?

Alomar is the only catcher on the staff that can call pitches and call a game.

Your assessment of Rowand is amusing, inaccurate, but amusing.

If you were to somehow combine both Uribe and Harris you might have a semblence of a good second baseman, but since that is impossible the position needs an upgrade, neither one of them is all that great at actually fielding the position.

I'll sit back while you dig up meaningless stats like range factor and fielding percentage to back your argument.

What are you backing your argument with? Uribe's the best fielder we have. Yes, this is a mediocre defensive team, but he's certainly capable of holding down the defensive side of his position. I don't know where you get your opinion, we must not be watching the same guy. And he's got 19 homers while batting .270. He's easily good enough to hit 7-9 evry day. Look to Uribe's right in the field to see the need for an upgrade.

TornLabrum
09-19-2004, 08:39 PM
What are you backing your argument with? Uribe's the best fielder we have. Yes, this is a mediocre defensive team, but he's certainly capable of holding down the defensive side of his position. I don't know where you get your opinion, we must not be watching the same guy. And he's got 19 homers while batting .270. He's easily good enough to hit 7-9 evry day. Look to Uribe's right in the field to see the need for an upgrade.
Unfortunately, Uribe offensively had a great first third and a great last third. The problem is that in the middle third he just plain stank.

Daver
09-19-2004, 08:45 PM
What are you backing your argument with? Uribe's the best fielder we have. Yes, this is a mediocre defensive team, but he's certainly capable of holding down the defensive side of his position. I don't know where you get your opinion, we must not be watching the same guy. And he's got 19 homers while batting .270. He's easily good enough to hit 7-9 evry day. Look to Uribe's right in the field to see the need for an upgrade.

If you want to defend Uribe's poor range, as well as his inability to make consistent throws, as well as his inability to consistently turn a double play, feel free to do so.

Don't mention his offensive numbers as a means to back your argument though, they have nothing to do with it.

batmanZoSo
09-19-2004, 08:47 PM
Unfortunately, Uribe offensively had a great first third and a great last third. The problem is that in the middle third he just plain stank.

That may be but his struggles didn't kill us like Crede's year long "slump" and Valentin's god awful play since the all-star break. Uribe started off hot and the league adjusted to him, but he adjusted right back.

batmanZoSo
09-19-2004, 08:54 PM
If you want to defend Uribe's poor range, as well as his inability to make consistent throws, as well as his inability to consistently turn a double play, feel free to do so.

Don't mention his offensive numbers as a means to back your argument though, they have nothing to do with it.

His hitting is relevant because you stated that we need to upgrade the position. Even if he does have faults on defense (which you greatly exaggerate), he has a big power upside that most shortstops don't. He doesn't air-mail throws like Valentin, he doesn't make stupid plays like Harris and he's got above average hands. On the DP, he's not Robbie Alomar in his prime, but he doesn't hold the team back in it, he's solid enough.

Rex Hudler
09-19-2004, 08:59 PM
The Sox will have three big boppers in the lineup next season, Thomas, Everett and either Konerko or Lee.

I hate to see what 2005 will bring if Everett is counted on as being a big bopper. Everett has a good year about one out of every three years. There is no way I would bet on him being a big contributor as an everyday player. If you are okay with him hitting .265 with 17 HR and 65 RBI, then fine, but I don't see that as a big bopper.

bigfoot
09-19-2004, 09:58 PM
The 2005 Sox, without PK &/or CLee, may make us all recall the 2004 Mariners, sans Ichiro. What F/A SP will be enticed to come to Chicago with little run support available? The pressure placed upon a starting staff to be close-to-perfect in "Coors Field East" will lead to more BBs and fewer wins, IMO. KW may wish to be very careful, when backing up the truck, this off-season. Careful that the truck doesn't run him over.

TornLabrum
09-19-2004, 10:45 PM
That may be but his struggles didn't kill us like Crede's year long "slump" and Valentin's god awful play since the all-star break. Uribe started off hot and the league adjusted to him, but he adjusted right back.
"Right back" took the better part of 2 months, and his slump hurt us every bit as much as anyone else's during that time period. It's nice that he's come back lately, but unfortunately, it was after we were out of the hunt.

TornLabrum
09-19-2004, 10:48 PM
The 2005 Sox, without PK &/or CLee, may make us all recall the 2004 Mariners, sans Ichiro. What F/A SP will be enticed to come to Chicago with little run support available? The pressure placed upon a starting staff to be close-to-perfect in "Coors Field East" will lead to more BBs and fewer wins, IMO. KW may wish to be very careful, when backing up the truck, this off-season. Careful that the truck doesn't run him over.
Right here in a nutshell is the whole problem. People (and I don't exclude Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams from this) seem to see the choices as "big boppers" or "small ball."

What about a balanced attack? Would that be too much to ask for?

Brian26
09-19-2004, 10:51 PM
Right here in a nutshell is the whole problem. People (and I don't exclude Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams from this) seem to see the choices as "big boppers" or "small ball."

What about a balanced attack? Would that be too much to ask for?
I agree 100%. Our boppers are fine as long as the guys around them can get on base.

OEO Magglio
09-19-2004, 11:00 PM
If you want to defend Uribe's poor range, as well as his inability to make consistent throws, as well as his inability to consistently turn a double play, feel free to do so.


Daver, me and you must be watching a completely different player. Uribe's got very good range and he's about as consistant as they come with his throws to first base. I think he's a great defensive ss but that's jmo.

mdep524
09-19-2004, 11:12 PM
Right here in a nutshell is the whole problem. People (and I don't exclude Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams from this) seem to see the choices as "big boppers" or "small ball."

What about a balanced attack? Would that be too much to ask for?
Yes! Somebody sees the light!! I'm with you 100% on this somehow foreign idea of balance. Unfortunately there are people on both sides who think this is some kind of polarized all-or-nothing dichotomy. I wish we could exempt our general manager and field manager from those dichotomous thinkers, but I'm afraid we might not be able to. :(: What they do this offseason will let us know.

soxnut
09-20-2004, 11:53 AM
Right here in a nutshell is the whole problem. People (and I don't exclude Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams from this) seem to see the choices as "big boppers" or "small ball."

What about a balanced attack? Would that be too much to ask for?

Exactly, I think too many on here have their panties in a bind. Take it easy folks.

maurice
09-20-2004, 12:45 PM
Uribe is an outstanding defensive IF who has been shuffled among three positions all year. Harris also has been shuffled back and forth, but really has improved his play a 2B. Rowand is no worse than an average defensive CF.

The problem with the Sox this year has not been the defense.

Tragg
09-20-2004, 07:52 PM
Uribe is an outstanding defensive IF who has been shuffled among three positions all year. Harris also has been shuffled back and forth, but really has improved his play a 2B. Rowand is no worse than an average defensive CF.

The problem with the Sox this year has not been the defense.
Maybe not.
BUT looking to the future, if small ball is the game, you need to be impeccable defensively. You're already giving up one are of the game, power; it's got to be overcome by well-above average play in all other areas.
I'm not convinced Ben Davis, Uribe, Harris and Rowand bring the level of play necessary to support a pitching staff under "Small ball" philosophy.

Rex Hudler
09-20-2004, 09:53 PM
I think a better term for what the Sox would like to get to is "smaller ball", as opposed to small ball. Someone else mentioned it earlier, but a balanced attack is ideal here. A team that can get on base, run, bunt, move runners and hit for power is the ultimate goal. I think the answer lies somewhere in between as opposed to going to the polar opposite.

MRKARNO
09-20-2004, 10:00 PM
If you want to defend Uribe's poor range, as well as his inability to make consistent throws, as well as his inability to consistently turn a double play, feel free to do so.

This statement is dissagreeable on so many levels that I wont even start up with an arguement that I know is going to fall on deaf ears, but Uribe in my opinion is among the best defensive shortstops in baseball in my opinion.

Daver
09-20-2004, 10:18 PM
This statement is dissagreeable on so many levels that I wont even start up with an arguement that I know is going to fall on deaf ears, but Uribe in my opinion is among the best defensive shortstops in baseball in my opinion.
Translation;

You can't argue against the truth.

Uribe can't hold Derek Jeter's jock, and Jeter is one of the most OVER rated shortstops in the game, Uribe is not even the SS Jose is.

dickallen15
09-21-2004, 04:46 AM
If the White Sox are serious about winning next year, they have to correct some mistakes.The biggest mistake is the moron managing the team. They need to replace Ozzie now, before things spiral even further downward. If it is true that Lou Piniella wants out of Tampa, give him what he wants to come here. He'll know how to fix this mess.

soxtalker
09-21-2004, 07:02 AM
If the White Sox are serious about winning next year, they have to correct some mistakes.The biggest mistake is the moron managing the team. They need to replace Ozzie now, before things spiral even further downward. If it is true that Lou Piniella wants out of Tampa, give him what he wants to come here. He'll know how to fix this mess.

I understand (and share) the frustration with the state of the team. I also would agree that Ozzie has made a number of mistakes, though we should expect that with a new young manager. But I fail to see where a stellar manager would make up for all the deficiencies of this organization.

Foulke29
09-21-2004, 08:32 AM
I second the motion, except for the part about Crede. I'd give him another year. I have hope he can turn it around and be 2005's version of the 2004 Paul Konerko. Otherwise, :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Agreed. I mean, look at what Beltre finally did this season. Imagine what the nay-sayers would say if we traded away Crede and he hit 30+ HR with a .300+ Avg and won a GG or something. If he did that for another team, I'd say that would be bad.

thepaulbowski
09-21-2004, 08:35 AM
Agreed. I mean, look at what Beltre finally did this season. Imagine what the nay-sayers would say if we traded away Crede and he hit 30+ HR with a .300+ Avg and won a GG or something. If he did that for another team, I'd say that would be bad.
Betre is in a contract year....that was his incentive to live up to expectations.