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jkrohn
09-17-2004, 11:57 AM
Anyone know where I can find pricing for Soxfest 05? I can't find anything for it on whitesox.com :mad:

Thanks,
Jkrohn

ewokpelts
09-17-2004, 12:39 PM
Anyone know where I can find pricing for Soxfest 05? I can't find anything for it on whitesox.com :mad:

Thanks,
JkrohnWait till mid-october.
Gene

Lip Man 1
09-17-2004, 12:45 PM
It's never to early to hope the fans cut loose as much venom as possible over this season towards the 'brian-trust' that runs the club. (I wonder who 'Hawk' is going to attack at this next one? I also hope someone asks him about his 'Willie Harris' prediction...LOL)

Lip

TommyJohn
09-17-2004, 12:48 PM
It's never to early to hope the fans cut loose as much venom as possible over this season towards the 'brian-trust' that runs the club. (I wonder who 'Hawk' is going to attack at this next one? I also hope someone asks him about his 'Willie Harris' prediction...LOL)

Lip
Here's hoping that Steff kicks some KW butt again in '05!! :D: :D:

Rocky Soprano
09-17-2004, 01:19 PM
I cant wait to say, you kept saying if the fans show up we will spend. Well the fans showed up early when we were still in it. And what did we get to show for it? Alomar and Everett again!

Thanks for the great improvement.

HITMEN OF 77
09-17-2004, 07:10 PM
We didn't make the playoffs or win the division, yeah I'm upset but not going to take it out on anyone. NO ONE should be be pissed at KW, we lost Maggs and Frank end of subject.

Foulke You
09-17-2004, 07:40 PM
It's never to early to hope the fans cut loose as much venom as possible over this season towards the 'brian-trust' that runs the club. (I wonder who 'Hawk' is going to attack at this next one? I also hope someone asks him about his 'Willie Harris' prediction...LOL)

Lip
LOL, I was thinking the same thing. However, I think it was DJ that had Willie Harris as his pre-season "Pick to Click" for 2004. The Hawkeroo didn't fair much better as he picked Jon Garland at Sox Fest for his pick and we all know how that one turned out too.:cool:

One thing I do know, if Magglio leaves town and there is no significant additions to replace him, there will be hell to pay at the Hyatt Regency this January. The venom from the fans will eclipse last year's Sox Fest for sure.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2004, 01:57 PM
Didn't hawk make the comment that Willie Harris was going to be one of the best second baseman he ever saw?

I know I read something like that here at WSI.

Lip

OEO Magglio
09-18-2004, 01:59 PM
Ha, funny this thread came up, I was just thinking a couple days back about how I can't wait for soxfest. Not to rip into anybody(I'll let steff handle that:tongue: ) but soxfest is just an awesome time, always hope before the season starts.

HITMEN OF 77
09-18-2004, 02:44 PM
Ha, funny this thread came up, I was just thinking a couple days back about how I can't wait for soxfest. Not to rip into anybody(I'll let steff handle that:tongue: ) but soxfest is just an awesome time, always hope before the season starts.
I can't wait either. I'm already checking plane ticket prices.

gosox41
09-18-2004, 05:29 PM
Ha, funny this thread came up, I was just thinking a couple days back about how I can't wait for soxfest. Not to rip into anybody(I'll let steff handle that:tongue: ) but soxfest is just an awesome time, always hope before the season starts.
Unless KW makes some intelligent, good, solid off season moves this season that gets me excited for 2005 I'm skipping SoxFest again.

OUtside of a couple of fans, inlcuding Steff, it's just a feel good time with guys talking out their butt. I don't need to be massaged with stupid figures like the Sox having the second best record in the 90's or to hear a player talk tough about Minnesota or hear Ozzie talk about new attitudes.

If KW makes some intelligent moves I'll find it worth my time to go. If not, then I hope to read in the papers how more and more are lambasting KW and the rest of managment.


Bob

owensmouth
09-18-2004, 07:04 PM
We didn't make the playoffs or win the division, yeah I'm upset but not going to take it out on anyone. NO ONE should be be pissed at KW, we lost Maggs and Frank end of subject.
We will all be better off is JR has fired KW and found a proper general manager by the time of Soxfest.

Nothing that Williams has done has been successful.

When Williams took over the GM duties, the White Sox had the number one rated minor league system in baseball. Under him, it has collapsed.

Nothing shows the imprint of Kenny Williams like the lack of a fifth starter. He hasn't been able to buy or trade or develop a fifth starter. The past two years have been ridiculous, the worst in baseball, and he still has accomplished nothing.

The bullpen is a joke. On the south side of town, BP means batting practice.

Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras and Garland...how many of these do you really want to see again next year? My guess is that most would say two, but we're probably doomed to all four. One way or the other, we're gonna be paying El Cubano 12 million over the next two years.

Williams deserves to be roasted on a spit.

OEO Magglio
09-18-2004, 07:07 PM
We will all be better off is JR has fired KW and found a proper general manager by the time of Soxfest.

Nothing that Williams has done has been successful.

When Williams took over the GM duties, the White Sox had the number one rated minor league system in baseball. Under him, it has collapsed.

Nothing shows the imprint of Kenny Williams like the lack of a fifth starter. He hasn't been able to buy or trade or develop a fifth starter. The past two years have been ridiculous, the worst in baseball, and he still has accomplished nothing.

The bullpen is a joke. On the south side of town, BP means batting practice.

Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras and Garland...how many of these do you really want to see again next year? My guess is that most would say two, but we're probably doomed to all four. One way or the other, we're gonna be paying El Cubano 12 million over the next two years.

Williams deserves to be roasted on a spit.Jab, where's your poo post??

chisoxfan79
09-18-2004, 07:14 PM
Its not on Superbowl weekend again is it?

jabrch
09-18-2004, 07:34 PM
It's the same old ....

http://www.brownfido.com/DogPoopPOO1.jpg



Someone tell me what KW should have done differently on the budget that he had. I still have yet to hear more than one cogent thought on this one.

When Williams took over the GM duties, the White Sox had the number one rated minor league system in baseball. Under him, it has collapsed. So what that says to me is that maybe it wasn't as good as it was rated? What happened to all those great players? Did KW ruin them? Hardly - they just weren't as good as all the raters said they were. Did KW trade away all the great talent we had? I don't think so - you can't name a single STAR he traded away - and you can only name a few marginal guys.


Nothing shows the imprint of Kenny Williams like the lack of a fifth starter. He hasn't been able to buy or trade or develop a fifth starter.
Schoe was OK - until he got hurt. He traded to get Garcia - how was he to know that Schoe would shortly thereafter fall apart? And yeah - the franchise hasn't devleoped a 5th starter - but there are a lot of franchises that meet that description. Of the playoff teams, how many have homegrown staffs? And of them, how many have larger budgets than the Sox.

One way or the other, we're gonna be paying El Cubano 12 million over the next two years.
Would you rather we have paid 30mm for Fatolo over that period of time? I still have seen enough from Contreras to believe he has it in him to be a decent middle or back of the rotation guy.

Williams deserves to be roasted on a spit.That's silly. The GM had nothing to do with losing his two best hitters for the entire second half and on a 65mm team payroll (with alomst 1/3 of that sitting on the DL). He has a rookie manager. Sure - we'd all love to win it all, but who thought this was going to be the year anyhow? Going into it this team was not predicted by many who were independent and unbiased to win the division, much less more. The team didn't shape up that way.

Now is when a Lip - anti-JR post should come in....it's Jerry's fault...

Sorry gang - it is baseball economics - pure and simple. There are two ways to win. 1) Spend so much money that you increase your odds that way. or 2) Be so disasterously bad for many many many years that you can build up an army of prospects to develop and trade, hoping that you hit the jackpot on 4 or 5 at the same time - so you can supplement them with a few veteran stars.

Our fans are so whiney when we finish in second place - I can't imagine if we did what Oak did between 92 and 98 or what FLA did between 98-02. God forbid what Cleveland did between 90 - 94, etc, etc.

Firing KW will solve absolutely none of this team's problems. Abosulte none of them.

MRKARNO
09-18-2004, 07:55 PM
Didn't hawk make the comment that Willie Harris was going to be one of the best second baseman he ever saw?

I know I read something like that here at WSI.

Lip
I dont know about that but I know he said something along those lines about Miguel Olivo

HITMEN OF 77
09-18-2004, 08:06 PM
Its not on Superbowl weekend again is it?
I think they moved it up to mid Jan now, 14-16th I think?

Lip Man 1
09-18-2004, 11:03 PM
Jabrch says: "Our fans are so whiney when we finish in second place."

If it was in a great division like the A.L. East in the 70's / 80's or the A.L. West right now, that would certainly be no shame.

However finishing second in the A.L. 'Comedy' Central (and perhaps with a losing record to boot) is nothing to be proud of, regardless of how optimistic your tendencies are. This has been a bad division for years.

Personally I think it's shameful but you're entitled to your dream world opinions.

Lip

StillMissOzzie
09-19-2004, 01:12 AM
However finishing second in the A.L. 'Comedy' Central (and perhaps with a losing record to boot) is nothing to be proud of, regardless of how optimistic your tendencies are. This has been a bad division for years.

Unfortunately, I must agree. I highly doubt if the AL wild card will ever come out of the Central division, which means that the Sox will have to win the division to get into the playoffs.

SMO
:(:

bc2k
09-19-2004, 02:11 AM
It's the same old ....

Schoe was OK - until he got hurt. He traded to get Garcia - how was he to know that Schoe would shortly thereafter fall apart? And yeah - the franchise hasn't devleoped a 5th starter - but there are a lot of franchises that meet that description. Of the playoff teams, how many have homegrown staffs? And of them, how many have larger budgets than the Sox. I hate the argument that we shouldn't attempt to improve our 5th starter spot because most teams don't have a good 5th starter either. ***? Don't we improve over other teams that don't have a good #5 by having one on the Sox? Why should the Sox handicap themselves just because every other team is? Since we're not currently the best team in baseball, we can help get to that point by replacing our bad 5th starter with a good one.

If you want to argue that we can't replace the 5th starter because JR is too cheap, or the farm system is too weak, or that KW is too dumb to find a good one, you can. But you can't say the ~30 starts a year that a #5 makes is irrelevant.


You defend KW by saying it is because of the JR payroll that he cannot improve the team. Well, the reason doesn't matter, only the end result: THE SOX HAVE FAILED ALL FOUR YEARS UNDER HIS COMMAND! Since JR is unlikely to give any GM much greater payroll flexibility, why not hire a man who could do better than Williams under the same JR payroll constraints? Unless you argue that KW is the greatest GM in the world and that nobody can do a better job than him. KW may be a good GM, but he can't succeed with the Sox payroll, so he needs to be fired to allow the opportunity for a smarter man to architect the next White Sox World Series team.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2004, 12:48 PM
You'd figure having five top guys would give the Sox an extreme advantage when they go up against an opponents garbage 5th starter.

Guess the dream worlder's didn't figure that. They say it's fine for our garbage to pitch against an opponents garbage.

Unfortunately the 5th starters record the past three years blows that argument right out of the water.

Lip

Still a Sox fan after 44 years of basically miserable teams! Now that's 'loyalty' (or stupidity!)

owensmouth
09-19-2004, 06:44 PM
Someone tell me what KW should have done differently on the budget that he had. I still have yet to hear more than one cogent thought on this one.
He should have developed his minor league system, not traded it away. You ask where are all the stars he traded? Remember it takes time in the majors for these guys to develop. And several of them are still in that category. By the way, where are the stars that KW traded for and what did they do for us?
How many times is KW going to trade to get Alomar and Everett?

I would rather that we kept Loaiza, or just released him, rather than have an excessively overpaid double A pitcher. Then I would have used the 12 million on someone that can throw strikes.

If it's all about money, kindly explain how come Minnesota can consistently pull up minor leaguers that outperform KW's acquisitions. Why is it that the absolute cheapest owner in the league, Pohland, and his team. whip the schnotts out of KW's team.

KW is the General Manager. It's his responsibility to produce, at the major league level and the minor league level. HE HAS FAILED! He deserves to be replaced.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2004, 09:06 PM
Just wondering...

Is it Williams job to draft, sign and train the minor leaguers to get them ready to perform at the major league level? I though that was the scouting director's job and the minor league coaches.

Me thinks that all of those morons should be fired first don't you think?

Lip

misty60481
09-19-2004, 09:38 PM
Why do they think they should bring a kid up from minor leagues after 2 or 3 years? When I first started following baseball ( late 40s ) most players spent a good 5 years in minors and they were ready for major leagues now you hear-- give him time he is still learning. That is what minors is for-- development, not learn in the big show. I think it ruins some kids who could be good ballplayers because the media and fans expect too much too soon and can be very hard on youngsters..especially now that we have all the talk sports shows which seem to want to tear down a team every chance they get...so what if a kid doesnt make it to big leagues until he is 28 or 29 most players stay in good enough shape to play until there late 30s---thats 10 years which makes a pretty good career...

Lip Man 1
09-20-2004, 12:14 AM
Misty:

I've asked that about the Sox myself for a long time. My only reason that I can come up with is because they always have holes on the club and are always desperately hoping that lightning will somehow strike.

Not the way to win a championship is it? (i.e. 'hoping'

Gary Peters spent over five years in the minor leagues. Today if you aren't called up you become a minor league free agent I think after five years, plenty of time to keep a kid down there for three years and him him learn his trade.

That's one thing the Twins do very well.. it's part of their philosophy. Most hitters get 1,500 minor league at bats, Hunter got almost 2,000. Their minor league pitchers generally spend at least three years down there before getting a September call up. Then the twins see how they did before determining the future.

Sounds like a plan and obviously it's working.

Lip

ewokpelts
09-20-2004, 01:13 AM
I think they moved it up to mid Jan now, 14-16th I think?it was moved in anticipation of a baseball world cup.
Gene

StillMissOzzie
09-20-2004, 01:18 AM
it was moved in anticipation of a baseball world cup.
Gene
I thought it ws because they didn't want to have a ghost town on Super Bowl Sunday again.

SMO

ewokpelts
09-20-2004, 01:23 AM
I thought it ws because they didn't want to have a ghost town on Super Bowl Sunday again.

SMOCheck your info. They have had it historically at the end of January. They have often collide dwith Super Sunday. BUT, Soxfest ENDS at 3. SuperBowl's at 530. I dont really see a conflict.This coming one was scheduled so that the players will be in Spring Training ealry due to a then-scheduled World Cup.
Gene
p.s. Soxfest will run alongside nfl playoffs this year. Who knows? There might be a ghost town after all this year!

Foulke29
09-20-2004, 10:14 AM
.

A.L. 'Comedy' Central

Lip
I like the Daily Show.

:bandance: :bandance:

Foulke29
09-20-2004, 10:20 AM
If it's all about money, kindly explain how come Minnesota can consistently pull up minor leaguers that outperform KW's acquisitions. Why is it that the absolute cheapest owner in the league, Pohland, and his team. whip the schnotts out of KW's team.

That would be because from about '93 or '94 the Twins were so bad that they were able to get cream of the crop, high round picks in all the drafts. They were a cellar team. Furthermore, when they did have someone performing halfway well, they could trade him away knowing fully well that they were going no where (i.e. the Post Season) and get a couple of extra draft picks for those trades.

How do you think that the Sox got guys like Bere, Fernandez, Ventura and Big Frank in the early '90s. It's because in the '80s - other than '83, we were pretty bad.

gosox41
09-20-2004, 10:45 AM
Just wondering...

Is it Williams job to draft, sign and train the minor leaguers to get them ready to perform at the major league level? I though that was the scouting director's job and the minor league coaches.

Me thinks that all of those morons should be fired first don't you think?

Lip
Who do you tihnk hires all these guys? KW has guys around him that share his philosophy. Isn't there a saying that in order to be a good boss you need to have strong people working underneath you?

You're right, they should all be fired. But all, including KW, should be fired at the same time. What's stopping KW from moving more incompetent people in to these places?


Bob

gosox41
09-20-2004, 10:48 AM
That would be because from about '93 or '94 the Twins were so bad that they were able to get cream of the crop, high round picks in all the drafts. They were a cellar team. Furthermore, when they did have someone performing halfway well, they could trade him away knowing fully well that they were going no where (i.e. the Post Season) and get a couple of extra draft picks for those trades.

How do you think that the Sox got guys like Bere, Fernandez, Ventura and Big Frank in the early '90s. It's because in the '80s - other than '83, we were pretty bad.
I don't think it's all about having top 10 draft picks in teh draft. It helps but how many of them actually made it on to the Twins?

And the Twins were smart (or cheap) enough to know that when the team sucked it's a good idea to move mor expensive players for prospects. At least they were smart enough to get good players in return.


Bob

owensmouth
09-20-2004, 11:10 AM
That would be because from about '93 or '94 the Twins were so bad that they were able to get cream of the crop, high round picks in all the drafts. They were a cellar team. Furthermore, when they did have someone performing halfway well, they could trade him away knowing fully well that they were going no where (i.e. the Post Season) and get a couple of extra draft picks for those trades.

How do you think that the Sox got guys like Bere, Fernandez, Ventura and Big Frank in the early '90s. It's because in the '80s - other than '83, we were pretty bad.
Granted, the Twins drafted earlier than the Sox back then, once each year. Every other player that the Twins drafted was available to the White Sox, and passed upon. Also, while the Sox may have missed out on one per year, the White Sox have had additional picks for vetrans signed by other teams.

The people in charge of minor league operations work for... the General Manager. If they don't do the job, and the GM doesn't react, then it's time to replace the General Manager.

Williams is like the little Dutch boy sticking his finger in a dike and saying "I made a trade. This will win the series for us." Problem is, he's not doing anything about all the other holes. Worse, the trades have not been good, bringing in old players that are beyond their useful lives.

His trades are bad and he's gutted the minor league system. Now, he's down to the last two or three players we have that any value. Get rid of them and you have nothing, which is what the Sox will have next year.

A major league team has to be able to pull up players from their own system to consistently perform. If you try and build a team with vetrans, you go broke. There has to be a mix. Under Williams, the minor leaguers have been traded away for immidiate gratification. The trades didn't work, Williams failed. Get rid of him.

MisterB
09-20-2004, 01:05 PM
I don't think it's all about having top 10 draft picks in teh draft. It helps but how many of them actually made it on to the Twins?
Let's run this down:

2001 - Joe Mauer - Little playing time due to injuries, but has hit well in the time he has played. Overall: a minor factor this year.

2000 - Adam Johnson - At AAA all year. Non-factor

1999 - B.J. Garbe - Did so well in the minors he was traded to Seattle straight up for Pat Borders. Non-factor.

1998 - Ryan Mills - Minors. Non-factor.

1997 - Mike Cuddyer - Utility man, has hit OK but not great. Minor factor.

1996 - Travis Lee - did not sign. non-factor.

1995 - Mark Redman - traded for Todd Jones in 2001. Non-factor.

1994 - Todd Walker - Traded for Todd Sears, 2000. Non-factor.

It ain't the high draft picks...

Lip Man 1
09-20-2004, 01:13 PM
Bob:

Did Williams actually hire the people in charge of scouting / talent? Were they already in place when he got the job? Does he even have the ability to fire these type of high level people? To do something like that does he need Uncle Jerry's permission?

Questions, questions, questions.

Lip

thepaulbowski
09-20-2004, 01:34 PM
It's amazing the this went from a Soxfest question into another KW Sucks/KW doesn't suck thread.