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balke
09-17-2004, 04:27 AM
Since every thread has someone with an axe, let's just get it out of the way.

hold2dibber
09-17-2004, 08:59 AM
The team needs a major overhaul. Because the upper minors are bear and because they have big $ owed to a couple of premium players, all-out rebuilding won't work, so the Sox need to severely re-tool. That means moving players who are good players to free up some payroll and it means drastically altering the mix of the team. Here's the general philosophy I would employ:

(1) Trade C. Lee; I have been advocating trading PK, but with Everett coming back next year (presumably he'll exercise his option) and C Lee being younger, signed for a few years and more versatile, I think he'd have more trade value and is more readily replaceable from within the organization.

(2) Trade Garland; I'm not a Garland basher, but I think the Sox could get some decent value for him and I just feel like its time for him to move on. There are a lot of pitching starved teams out there who, like us, see Garland's potential, and will be willing to give up some decent talent for him (to Cincinnatti for Freel?).

(3) Goodbye to Valentin, Maggs, Schoenweiss, both Alomars, possibly Politte (depending upon what kind of $ he's looking for).

(4) I'd seriously shop Harris, Adkins, Borchard, Crede, Davis, Contreras and even Rowand. See what kind of value they have. I wouldn't be adverse to trading any of them if the price was right.

In terms of who to bring in, with respect to position players I'd be looking for a few slick fielding, decent OBP guys who can bunt and run and bust their humps every day. No superstars needed - guys like Freel, Mincihizeviecz, Kendall, Hairston (although he's too injury-prone), etc. With Everett, Thomas, Konerko and Rowand the Sox will have plenty of pop. They need fast, hustling, great defensive players around those guys.

And then, the most important piece of the puzzle, is pitching. The Sox need TWO starting pitchers and at least TWO new legit arms in the pen. Whether through trade or free agency, the team is going nowhere without an influx of pitching next year.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2004, 09:09 AM
Getting this franchise off its back is very simple.

1. "Fire" the owner
2. Install new front office
3. Get an experienced manager who knows how to win.

Take care of 1, 2, and 3, and everything else works out fine.

Jon Garland isn't traded unless we get a boatload for him. Otherwise he becomes #5.
"Sell High" on Paul Konerko. Ask the world for Carlos Lee and trade him if you get it.
Solidify the rotation with at least two more frontline pitchers. Unlike the previous regime, don't make excuses and be willing to pay the going rate.
Get a leadoff man. Retire Joe Crede. Put the Alomars out to pasture.
This is not brain surgery. The people who run the White Sox want us to think it is brain surgery, but that's because they're trying to do brain surgery on the cheap.

And that's why we have a brain dead outfit to cheer for.

Cheap, timid, and stupid.

Lem_Siddons
09-17-2004, 09:14 AM
The team needs a major overhaul. Because the upper minors are bear and because they have big $ owed to a couple of premium players, all-out rebuilding won't work, so the Sox need to severely re-tool. That means moving players who are good players to free up some payroll and it means drastically altering the mix of the team. Here's the general philosophy I would employ:

(1) Trade C. Lee; I have been advocating trading PK, but with Everett coming back next year (presumably he'll exercise his option) and C Lee being younger, signed for a few years and more versatile, I think he'd have more trade value and is more readily replaceable from within the organization.
Is it bare or can we readily replace one of our best young players?

Get healthy and reload do not rebuild. We lost our #1 and #2 at about the same time. Swapping #3 or #4 (Lee) and moving down isn't winning the division next year.

We have a solid 4 starters. Again we are looking, this time have a proven guy that can get you a 7-10 type record from the #5 spot. I will not even dream of a 8-8 or better.

poorme
09-17-2004, 09:41 AM
This is not brain surgery. The people who run the White Sox want us to think it is brain surgery, but that's because they're trying to do brain surgery on the cheap.

And that's why we have a brain dead outfit to cheer for.

Cheap, timid, and stupid.
I concur. It's not brain surgery. Not even close.

Baby Fisk
09-17-2004, 11:14 AM
It's so clear what the solution has always been: Bert Blyleven.

ma_deuce
09-17-2004, 11:30 AM
:hitless

"Where is the "Replace Valentin with the Choice" option?"

bluestar
09-17-2004, 12:05 PM
It's so clear what the solution has always been: Bert Blyleven.
Speaking of Blyleven, you may have heard him whining for half the game last night about Buehrle's comments to the media. He wouldn't shut up about it!

Baby Fisk
09-17-2004, 12:16 PM
Speaking of Blyleven, you may have heard him whining for half the game last night about Buehrle's comments to the media. He wouldn't shut up about it!
Luckily, the Sox got their pathetic asses handed to them early enough in the game that I watched Survivor and the Apprentice instead. :cool:

Lip Man 1
09-17-2004, 12:48 PM
PHG's comment is right on the money. It all starts at the top folks and flows down from there.


Lip

voodoochile
09-17-2004, 12:51 PM
PHG's comment is right on the money. It all starts at the top folks and flows down from there.


Lip
Exactly. I made one vote - dump JR. The dork must go! :selljerry

No point in doing much else until that happens, IMO...:(:

hold2dibber
09-17-2004, 01:30 PM
Is it bare or can we readily replace one of our best young players?
It's bare - Lee would be replaced by Everett (not a minor leaguer) in LF.

Get healthy and reload do not rebuild. We lost our #1 and #2 at about the same time. Swapping #3 or #4 (Lee) and moving down isn't winning the division next year.
I'm not talking about giving Lee away - I think he probably has a lot of trade value and what he brings to the table (power) we already have plenty of. If the Sox could trade Lee for Furcal (great defense, great speed, young, consistent .350+ OBP and approx. $3 million/year less in salary), Juan Pierre, (same) or a solid middle of the rotation starter (Weaver? Lilly? Livan Hernanez), they'd be a better team. I'm not talking about "dumping" their 3rd or 4th best player, I'm talking about trading him for a different kind of 3rd or 4th best player.

We have a solid 4 starters. Again we are looking, this time have a proven guy that can get you a 7-10 type record from the #5 spot. I will not even dream of a 8-8 or better.
I completely disagree. The Sox have 2 solid starters, one huge question mark (Contreras) who could be a no. 2 starter or a no. 5 starter, and a solid no. 5 in Garland. The Sox desparately need two more starters.

Wealz
09-17-2004, 01:50 PM
While new ownership would be welcomed all it takes is one smart hire from Reinsdorf.

He's shown he's capable of admitting and correcting mistakes by figuring out a way to turn the park from the eyesore it was into a park I would put up against any in MLB.

Randar68
09-17-2004, 01:52 PM
While new ownership would be welcomed all it takes is one smart hire from Reinsdorf.

He's shown he's capable of admitting and correcting mistakes by figuring out a way to turn the park from the eyesore it was into a park I would put up against any in MLB.
Settle down Dan Evans.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2004, 01:55 PM
While new ownership would welcomed all it takes is one smart hire from Reinsdorf.

He's shown he's capable of admitting and correcting mistakes by figuring out a way to turn the park from the eyesore it was into a park I would put up against any in MLB.You're joking, right? The complaints about New Comiskey Park started back in 1991. Reinsdorf was still stonewalling the issue as recently as 1999. His entire organization denied there was any problem at all. THAT'S EIGHT YEARS!
:?:

When Pizer finally took the lead in 2000 to make retrofitted improvements (to a ballpark only 10 years old!), it was REINSDORF who said, "The fans don't want to win as much as I do."

Sorry, but you're waaay off base if you think Reinsdorf will do anything without kicking and screaming the whole way.

Wealz
09-17-2004, 01:56 PM
Settle down Dan Evans.
What are you talking about Wes?

fuzzy_patters
09-17-2004, 02:06 PM
I do not like the idea of trading PK and CL. They are our two best offensive players right now. If the Sox hope to compete next year, the best bet would be to expand the payroll. Rather than getting rid of good players, let's get rid of the bad players and replace them with better players to supplement the good players we already have. In other words, we need new ownership.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2004, 02:11 PM
I do not like the idea of trading PK and CL. They are our two best offensive players right now. If the Sox hope to compete next year, the best bet would be to expand the payroll. Rather than getting rid of good players, let's get rid of the bad players and replace them with better players to supplement the good players we already have. In other words, we need new ownership.
Konerko *still* hasn't put together a full-season. His value yoo-yoos. It's high right now. Sell high. We can get a streaky firstbasemen with comparable numbers for a lot less $.

Lee is valuable and (in theory) could lengthen his career moving to 1B down the line. I wouldn't trade him unless we got a lot in return -- like a frontline pitcher. SP's are waaay more valuable than LF's.

balke
09-17-2004, 02:14 PM
Konerko *still* hasn't put together a full-season. His value yoo-yoos. It's high right now. Sell high. We can get a streaky firstbasemen with comparable numbers for a lot less $.

Lee is valuable and (in theory) could lengthen his career moving to 1B down the line. I wouldn't trade him unless we got a lot in return -- like a frontline pitcher. SP's are waaay more valuable than LF's.I like your thinking. Like you said, only trade lee if you get back the moon and stars. Trade PK only if you get more than what he's given us. PK is 28, so he could look good to teams still. He's on catchers legs, so that age may be older than it appears. I'd like to see him bring us some speed/OBP in the outfield, and/or a pitcher.

Wealz
09-17-2004, 02:24 PM
Konerko *still* hasn't put together a full-season. His value yoo-yoos. It's high right now. Sell high. We can get a streaky firstbasemen with comparable numbers for a lot less $.
I think Konerko has to be moved. I predict people will be surprised by how little the Sox get in return for him too. Konerko's flaws can't be easily hidden. Whether or not the deal is a good one will depend on how much salary relief Williams is able to get and probably not the talent in return.

WikdChiSoxFan
09-17-2004, 02:27 PM
Now I don't know Cooper personally, but his track record seems to think very little of him. He finally convinced Freddy Garcia to throw like crap and it seems Jose Contreras has now become consistently bad. We can also look at the failure to develop Garland....who I think could be really good...Billy Koch!? Wasn't he at least better than average before he came to the Sox. Now, I know you can't blame it all on the coach...but good coach should have been able to avoid most of this crap. There's my 2 cents. I vote Cooper should be left behind.

duke of dorwood
09-17-2004, 03:43 PM
If these clowns think small ball will win in the AL, we are in for YEARS of this same crap we are seeing now.

Gut upper management and ownership

nodiggity59
09-17-2004, 04:01 PM
I think Konerko has to be moved. I predict people will be surprised by how little the Sox get in return for him too. Konerko's flaws can't be easily hidden. Whether or not the deal is a good one will depend on how much salary relief Williams is able to get and probably not the talent in return.In any case, we will get some more $ to throw at pitching if he goes, even if the talent we receive in the deal isn't great.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2004, 05:44 PM
If you are going to get a new pitching coach the Sox may want to consider a guy they USED to have but fired (naturally...) Rick Petersen, the guy who Jack McDowell called the best coach he ever had...the guy who made winners out of Oakland's starters and the guy who for most of this year had the Mets near the top of the pitching stats in the N.L.

With Howe being fired he may be available.

Lip

KingXerxes
09-17-2004, 06:07 PM
Hey, I've got a great idea.

The first move to make is to dump Jose Valentin.

Because if I have to watch one more second of Jose Valentin out there, when he should be long gone - well then I'll just lose my mind.

Some of us may miss Jose Valentin's neatly trimmed mustache and faux tough guy look but I sure won't, because I thought they should have started the season without Jose Valentin and never should have picked up that ridiculous option for $5,000,000.

balke
09-17-2004, 06:11 PM
Hey, I've got a great idea.

The first move to make is to dump Jose Valentin.

Because if I have to watch one more second of Jose Valentin out there, when he should be long gone - well then I'll just lose my mind.

Some of us may miss Jose Valentin's neatly trimmed mustache and faux tough guy look but I sure won't, because I thought they should have started the season without Jose Valentin and never should have picked up that ridiculous option for $5,000,000.
You and me both brother. The stache is .154 since the break. Borchard should be playing short. If anyone wants to criticize KW for keeping this bum around, I'll sit back and listen. That was the FIRST thing I thought he would do in the offseason, ponying up 5mil was the last thing any sane person would commit to.

batmanZoSo
09-17-2004, 07:25 PM
It's bare - Lee would be replaced by Everett (not a minor leaguer) in LF.


I'm not talking about giving Lee away - I think he probably has a lot of trade value and what he brings to the table (power) we already have plenty of. If the Sox could trade Lee for Furcal (great defense, great speed, young, consistent .350+ OBP and approx. $3 million/year less in salary), Juan Pierre, (same) or a solid middle of the rotation starter (Weaver? Lilly? Livan Hernanez), they'd be a better team. I'm not talking about "dumping" their 3rd or 4th best player, I'm talking about trading him for a different kind of 3rd or 4th best player.


I completely disagree. The Sox have 2 solid starters, one huge question mark (Contreras) who could be a no. 2 starter or a no. 5 starter, and a solid no. 5 in Garland. The Sox desparately need two more starters.


I disagree with that...say we get a great starter this offseason...Buehrle, Garcia and so-and-so lead the way with Contreras as the 4th and Garland the 5th. They're already good enough for those roles, and they both have a chance to improve. We only need one starter and there's question to whether we can afford that, let alone two.

The best thing offensively is to trade Konerko hopefully for a shortstop/second baseman who has speed and leadoff ability in return. If not, take prospects along with a good reliever for Konerko and make a separate trade for the middle infielder in question.

Get rid of Alomar and get a decent .260 hitting veteran catcher in a platoon with Davis.

Get a first baseman who bats left handed and hits line drives for cheap. There's gotta be someone like that out there. Someone who's worthy of playing every day and makes no more than 3 million.

kitekrazy
09-17-2004, 08:48 PM
Now I don't know Cooper personally, but his track record seems to think very little of him. He finally convinced Freddy Garcia to throw like crap and it seems Jose Contreras has now become consistently bad. We can also look at the failure to develop Garland....who I think could be really good...Billy Koch!? Wasn't he at least better than average before he came to the Sox. Now, I know you can't blame it all on the coach...but good coach should have been able to avoid most of this crap. There's my 2 cents. I vote Cooper should be left behind.
Exactly. You are ONE of the Few that actually sees this. Our staff sucks right now. There is not one guy on the mound now that I have confidence in a win.
Look at how Mark B. is declining as well. Is Cotts better this year?

kitekrazy
09-17-2004, 08:53 PM
In any case, we will get some more $ to throw at pitching if he goes, even if the talent we receive in the deal isn't great.
Like last year? Somehow they lost that 12 mil a year they were going to offer Colon when he refused.

Where were the grinders Kenny wanted?

I'm not sure I could trust this organization to do anything to improve the team except for lowering the payroll.

balke
09-18-2004, 02:17 AM
WSI Welcome your 2005 Chicago White Sox:

Roberto/willie 2nd
Timo RF
Gload 1B
Sandy DH
Everett CF
Davis/Burke C
Borchard LF
Valentin / Valdez SS
Crede 3rd

Garland
Cotts
Grilli
Wright
Diaz

Adkins
Shingo
Canyonaro
Person
Politte
Munoz

All "names" have been traded away for prospects and draft picks.

sigh. Saddest part is half of these names probably will be here and starting.
I need to hide from sports news this offseason.... did I say half, I meant 90%

kitekrazy
09-18-2004, 03:39 AM
WSI Welcome your 2005 Chicago White Sox:

Roberto/willie 2nd
Timo RF
Gload 1B
Sandy DH
Everett CF
Davis/Burke C
Borchard LF
Valentin / Valdez SS
Crede 3rd

Garland
Cotts
Grilli
Wright
Diaz

Adkins
Shingo
Canyonaro
Person
Politte
Munoz

All "names" have been traded away for prospects and draft picks.

sigh. Saddest part is half of these names probably will be here and starting.
I need to hide from sports news this offseason.... did I say half, I meant 90%
The Bill Wirtz model.