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View Full Version : Walk and Coop...keepers?


LASOXFAN
09-17-2004, 12:56 AM
I haven't seen much from Greg Walker to make me think he deserves to come back except for the fact that he's a great guy, a former Sox and one of my favorites, but that shouldn't mean much. This team couldn't bunt in the spring when i saw them in Tucson and they still can't bunt. I'm constantly shaking my head at the approach players like Willie and Crede bring to the plate. You can watch a team like the Twins against a certain pitcher and tell that they're all on the same page and taking the same approach (we're going to lay off the inside pitch and take everything to right field, for example). I never see this from the Sox.

As for Cooper, the last couple of years speak for themselves. Nardi is NOT a tough act to follow but watching a guy like Garland with so much talent continue to wallow makes me wonder what he could do under the instruction of someone else.

I say show them both the door.

FightingBillini
09-17-2004, 01:00 AM
Keep Walker. Its not his fault guys if Crede wont listen to him.
As for Coop... HE GONE! When was the last time we got what we expected out of our pitching staff? They have been underachieving for several years now.

MisterB
09-17-2004, 01:07 AM
I find it ironic that a team that can't bunt is leading the AL in sacrifice hits. :?:

thepaulbowski
09-17-2004, 08:28 AM
Keep Walker. Its not his fault guys if Crede wont listen to him.
As for Coop... HE GONE! When was the last time we got what we expected out of our pitching staff? They have been underachieving for several years now.
Coop didn't help Loiaza at all last year with that cutter. Change for the sake of change is chaos.

mike squires
09-17-2004, 11:57 AM
Keep Walk and although I don't think Coop has done too bad a job bring up Dotson from the minors. Then assign Hoyt to the minor league affiliate. Then again, despite being gone from the game for awhile and some of his past problems maybe Hoyt would be good for this team. His confidence and knowledge of the game would benifet these players. We need a guy like Hoyt to light a fire under these guys.

JRIG
09-17-2004, 12:01 PM
I find it ironic that a team that can't bunt is leading the AL in sacrifice hits. :?:
Now, now. Don't let facts get in the way of people's arguments. This team needs to bunt a hell of a lot more if we're ever going to overtake Minnesota.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2004, 12:52 PM
JRIG:

It's not how often but WHEN you can execute a successful bunt.

Care to go over the number of times these brain dead buffoons couldn't? (and it wound up losing them the game...)

I thought it was extremely funny that according to the newspapers Kenny Williams took batting practice Thursday night in Minnesota. The newspaper notation said that he drew everyone's attention when he 'successfully laid down a bunt...'

That is called making a point to the players and you can bet your rear end they noticed it.

Lip

mealfred13
09-17-2004, 12:55 PM
JRIG:

It's not how often but WHEN you can execute a successful bunt.

Care to go over the number of times these brain dead buffoons couldn't? (and it wound up losing them the game...)

I thought it was extremely funny that according to the newspapers Kenny Williams took batting practice Thursday night in Minnesota. The newspaper notation said that he drew everyone's attention when he 'successfully laid down a bunt...'

That is called making a point to the players and you can bet your rear end they noticed it.

Lip
AHAHAHAHAH. That is great!

JRIG
09-17-2004, 01:07 PM
JRIG:

It's not how often but WHEN you can execute a successful bunt.

Care to go over the number of times these brain dead buffoons couldn't? (and it wound up losing them the game...)

I thought it was extremely funny that according to the newspapers Kenny Williams took batting practice Thursday night in Minnesota. The newspaper notation said that he drew everyone's attention when he 'successfully laid down a bunt...'

That is called making a point to the players and you can bet your rear end they noticed it.

Lip
I see your point and agree there are times when a bunt in necessary. I just wouldn't mind seeing the team end up with only a small number of sacrifice bunts at the end of the year as long as they are laid down at the correct times, and not in the 1st inning after the leadoff man walks.

WikdChiSoxFan
09-17-2004, 02:46 PM
Bunting can only be used in certain situations...Pitching is needed through all nine innings. Cooper has a laundry list of failures.

Failure to develop Garland
Is that Freddy Garcia on the mound?
Jose Contreras is now at least consistenly horrible.
Billy Koch!?
The Mysterious 5th Starter


And as for that sarcastic comment on Cooper helping Loaiza with his cutter. What happened? Loaiza throws as much trash in the general vicinity of the plate now as I will if Cooper walks into that dugout next season. I say we keep getting pitchers that can barely understand english. That way they can't listen to Cooper.

thepaulbowski
09-17-2004, 02:57 PM
Bunting can only be used in certain situations...Pitching is needed through all nine innings. Cooper has a laundry list of failures.

Failure to develop Garland
Is that Freddy Garcia on the mound?
Jose Contreras is now at least consistenly horrible.
Billy Koch!?
The Mysterious 5th Starter


And as for that sarcastic comment on Cooper helping Loaiza with his cutter. What happened? Loaiza throws as much trash in the general vicinity of the plate now as I will if Cooper walks into that dugout next season. I say we keep getting pitchers that can barely understand english. That way they can't listen to Cooper.
:whiner:

A pitching coach can't teach velocity.

Daver
09-17-2004, 10:55 PM
:whiner:

A pitching coach can't teach velocity.

The main job of a pitching coach is to catch flaws in mechanics and correct them, to keep his staff healthy. Don Cooper is very good at this.

The main job of a hitting coach is to detect flaws in swing mechanics and correct them, to keep his staff productive, Greg Walker has failed in this in many ways.

ClaudelSleptHere
09-18-2004, 01:42 AM
The main job of a pitching coach is to catch flaws in mechanics and correct them, to keep his staff healthy. Don Cooper is very good at this.

The main job of a hitting coach is to detect flaws in swing mechanics and correct them, to keep his staff productive, Greg Walker has failed in this in many ways.
Why does Cooper only have to keep his staff healthy, but Walker has to keep his staff productive? Doesn't sound quite fair to me. Maybe Cooper needs to keep his staff productive. Are you quoting directly from the Sox coaching job description?

misty60481
09-18-2004, 09:27 AM
We are getting pretty bad when we start blaming the pitching coach and hitting instructer for our miserable showing. You cant make chicken salad out of chicken s*** we n need ballplayers with some talent, I dont see the ones coming up as being very good---Crede--seems lost,Borchard--same thing--Davis--like him but dont think he will be to much of hitter, Burke---good back-up,Perez, Gload, Valdez, Harris, all good bench players but not major league regulars. I think Uribe has a chance to be a good ballplayer--he seems to have the tools. So what are we left with--C. lee, PK, A-Row, we dont have a clue about Maggs you have to wonder about Big Frank being 36 and having foot and ankle problems at 260+ lbs., I think he has a couple more good years but will have to be babied,. and we cant afford to lose his bat.I think KW has a full winter ahead to try and make something from this...

gosox41
09-18-2004, 10:17 AM
JRIG:

It's not how often but WHEN you can execute a successful bunt.

Care to go over the number of times these brain dead buffoons couldn't? (and it wound up losing them the game...)

I thought it was extremely funny that according to the newspapers Kenny Williams took batting practice Thursday night in Minnesota. The newspaper notation said that he drew everyone's attention when he 'successfully laid down a bunt...'

That is called making a point to the players and you can bet your rear end they noticed it.

Lip
So KW laid down a bunt off a batting practice pitcher? If I were a player, I'd laugh. That's not saying much. How many bunts did he lay down successfully when he was a major leaguer? For a guy who failed he should be the last one to criticize other player's inabilities.

You know what would be a good skill? Putting together a winning team.


Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2004, 10:50 AM
We are getting pretty bad when we start blaming the pitching coach and hitting instructer for our miserable showing. You cant make chicken salad out of chicken s*** we n need ballplayers with some talent, I dont see the ones coming up as being very good....
Boy, I couldn't agree more. How did we ever sink to the level of blaming the hitting and pitching coach for this train wreck? I realize Jerry Manuel survived an extra 3 years by letting his coaches take the fall for his own incompetence, but since when did any of us who don't collect a paycheck inside Reinsdorf's gulag believe this was a smart move?
:?:

I'm also sickened to read even more posts about laying down bunts and eliminating home runs as the salvation of the White Sox franchise. It's like chronic brainwasting disease for Sox Fans. We won exactly ONCE in 87 years with this formula, and even the Sox players of the "golden era" admit the Go-Go Sox needed more PUNCH to compete.

"Nevermind that," scream the CBW-diseased Sox Fans! "We need to bunt! The dead ball era is bound to come back! It was nothing but a fluke the Bronx Bombers beat us like a drum back in the 50's and 60's!"

:kukoo:

SOXSINCE'70
09-18-2004, 10:59 AM
I'm in the middle.Half of me says fire them both,but the other half says they aren't the ones on the field who can't execute.When do the players take the blame for this?? That's what I'd like to know.:dunno: :dunno:

Lip Man 1
09-18-2004, 01:44 PM
George:

Of course you realize this team has never won by trying to smash 250 home runs a year.

Hey I'll take once over none any day of the day.

Lip

balke
09-18-2004, 02:09 PM
George:

Of course you realize this team has never won by trying to smash 250 home runs a year.

Hey I'll take once or none any day of the day.

Lip
I don't really think a hitter should be judged based on the HR or the Bunt. Good hitters get on base, and advance the runner. Good hitters normally know how to go yard, and can hit a double with a RISP. We have some good hitters on this team. We have a HR guy who's not such a "great" hitter (IMO) in PK. Our "bunters" are generally horrible hitters, because they aren't getting on base. Uribe is okay as a "small ball" hitter, but not great.

Rowand has been a good "hitter" most of the season. Frank is always a good "hitter" as is Maggs. Ichiro, Ricky Henderson, and Durham were/are all good hitter, and they could/would bunt. We do need some good hitting bunters on the team, but It would be great if we could keep some good hitting HR guys (I'm really curious to see if Maggs value goes down). and to weed out at least a couple of the not-so-good hitting HR guys (Crede Konerko Valentin Everett Borchard. NOTE: PK is not bad, but not great, sorry to lump him in the same category as the stache).

Whether you have an entire team of Ichiros, or an entire team of Franks, you're going to be overbalanced one way or the other. You need to get the right mix of speedy bunters and good hitting sluggers to win games and score runs.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2004, 04:00 PM
George:

Of course you realize this team has never won by trying to smash 250 home runs a year.

Hey I'll take once or none any day of the day.

LipFine. I'll remember this next time you complain about the Sox never winning anything. "I'll take once or none any day of the [week]."

I hope you plan on living another 40+ years. Following your prescription, that's how long it took last time.

gosox41
09-18-2004, 05:26 PM
I don't really think a hitter should be judged based on the HR or the Bunt. Good hitters get on base, and advance the runner. Good hitters normally know how to go yard, and can hit a double with a RISP. We have some good hitters on this team. We have a HR guy who's not such a "great" hitter (IMO) in PK. Our "bunters" are generally horrible hitters, because they aren't getting on base. Uribe is okay as a "small ball" hitter, but not great.

Rowand has been a good "hitter" most of the season. Frank is always a good "hitter" as is Maggs. Ichiro, Ricky Henderson, and Durham were/are all good hitter, and they could/would bunt. We do need some good hitting bunters on the team, but It would be great if we could keep some good hitting HR guys (I'm really curious to see if Maggs value goes down). and to weed out at least a couple of the not-so-good hitting HR guys (Crede Konerko Valentin Everett Borchard. NOTE: PK is not bad, but not great, sorry to lump him in the same category as the stache).

Whether you have an entire team of Ichiros, or an entire team of Franks, you're going to be overbalanced one way or the other. You need to get the right mix of speedy bunters and good hitting sluggers to win games and score runs.

I could handle being overbalanced with a buncch of Frank's. As far as I'm concerned having 9 guys win the line up that have a .420 OBP and hit 40 HR's isn't going to need to bunt too often. And I could live with station to station ball knowing the team was going to hit 360 HR's a season from its starters and odds are have fewer solo shots then this team.

Too bad we can't clone Frank.


Bob

Soxfest
09-18-2004, 08:01 PM
Cooper stays.....Walker should be gone.

balke
09-18-2004, 08:54 PM
I could handle being overbalanced with a buncch of Frank's. As far as I'm concerned having 9 guys win the line up that have a .420 OBP and hit 40 HR's isn't going to need to bunt too often. And I could live with station to station ball knowing the team was going to hit 360 HR's a season from its starters and odds are have fewer solo shots then this team.

Too bad we can't clone Frank.


Bobwell, there's only one frank unfortunately. I guess I don't know how to effectively demonstrate my point :(:

It just comes down to needing good hitters, not necessarily a good bunter or a good HR hitter. For the HR hitters you have, then need someone to drive home. For all the speedy bunters, they need someone to drive them home, and they need hitters in on base to advance with the bunt.

poorme
09-18-2004, 09:16 PM
what exactly has walker done wrong?

A. Cavatica
09-18-2004, 09:23 PM
They both should stay. Imagine how much further out to sea Ozzie would've been without them.

kitekrazy
09-19-2004, 12:59 AM
Coop has to go. I worry more about our pitching than hitting. The staff has gotten worse. I say fire Baines and make Coop the bench coach.

Mohoney
09-19-2004, 08:32 AM
If Ozzie is happy with the efforts turned in by Cooper and Walker, then they should be brought back. If Ozzie has other people in mind for these roles, then give him the guys he wants.

Ozzie got to pick Cora and Baines. Everybody else was a holdover from Manuel's regime. Managers all over the league are allowed to pick their own coaching staffs, yet Ozzie gets stuck with Manuel retreads.

I'm not as opposed to Walker as much as I am to Cooper. Our staff-wide problems with 2 outs are getting a little redundant. Granted, this guy was given unproven pitchers such as Garland, Cotts, and Adkins, but I think that a Duncan or Mazzone could have molded at least one of these guys into something servicable. And PLEASE don't say that Garland is servicable. The guy could give up home runs in the Grand Canyon.