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View Full Version : Ozzie should be embarrassed


balboner
09-16-2004, 09:05 PM
This team has flat out quit on him, and it's been that way for a while. I know they had the 2 key injuries, but Ozzie didnt absolutely nothing to try and turn this thing around. He's turned into a joke in terms of what he says to the media, and his team has played like a bunch of pansies. He continues to play awful Valentin while not playing Borchard down the stretch. I honestly want him fired after the season, but I'm sure it won't happen. The best thing for this organization would be to get rid of KW and Ozzie, and start anew with a fresh approach.

JB98
09-16-2004, 09:10 PM
This team has flat out quit on him, and it's been that way for a while. I know they had the 2 key injuries, but Ozzie didnt absolutely nothing to try and turn this thing around. He's turned into a joke in terms of what he says to the media, and his team has played like a bunch of pansies. He continues to play awful Valentin while not playing Borchard down the stretch. I honestly want him fired after the season, but I'm sure it won't happen. The best thing for this organization would be to get rid of KW and Ozzie, and start anew with a fresh approach.

No. The best thing for this organization would be to get better players.

Soxzilla
09-16-2004, 09:12 PM
No. The best thing for this organization would be to get better players.
AND, a better manager.

You can't ride the bargain bins to the world series.

Daver
09-16-2004, 09:13 PM
No. The best thing for this organization would be to get better players.
I take it a real manager and better players is out of the question?

balboner
09-16-2004, 09:16 PM
Think about it, KW is responsible for the players on this team the last 4 years or so, and they havent won squat! I don't have any clue how he has a job still.

Patrick134
09-16-2004, 09:23 PM
Hold the phone on KW there. Last year's team had the division there for the taking and lost it all on their own. Kenny doesn't control the budget, so in some cases his hands are tied. Sure he's had horrible deals ( todd ritchie), but some very good pickups as well ( Loaiza year 1). The sox have gotten very good at handing the twins the division the past few years.

balboner
09-16-2004, 09:26 PM
Hold the phone on KW there. Last year's team had the division there for the taking and lost it all on their own. Kenny doesn't control the budget, so in some cases his hands are tied. Sure he's had horrible deals ( todd ritchie), but some very good pickups as well ( Loaiza year 1). The sox have gotten very good at handing the twins the division the past few years.
KW knows the budget, he just doesnt adjust well to it when dealing with players. What in the hell was he thinking saddling himself with Everett's contract for next year? Can the Sox really afford Contreras at 6 mil a yr for 2 years when he's so erratic? At least two straight years now where KW failed to get the Sox a true 5th starter heading into the year. KW"s continuing to sign Sandy Alomar each year. There's been too many screwups by KW for him to keep a job. If they were succeeding, that's allowable. But not when they suck as much as they do.

JB98
09-16-2004, 09:28 PM
Hold the phone on KW there. Last year's team had the division there for the taking and lost it all on their own. Kenny doesn't control the budget, so in some cases his hands are tied. Sure he's had horrible deals ( todd ritchie), but some very good pickups as well ( Loaiza year 1). The sox have gotten very good at handing the twins the division the past few years.

Valid points, but I wouldn't try reasoning with the anti-KW and anti-Ozzie contingent around here. They won't rest until somebody's head rolls over this season.

misty60481
09-16-2004, 09:53 PM
When we are officially out the team will probably win 8 out of the last 10 games and Ozzie will declare we are all set for next year....

Wealz
09-16-2004, 09:57 PM
A case could be made that this franchise is about to embark on its darkest period since '86-'87. the mid-to-late '90's were pretty dark too, but at least Thomas was in his prime and Ventura was at third for some of that timeand Ordonez and Durham were on their way up. The pitching staff still had Alvarez, Fernandez, and Hernandez too.

Daver
09-16-2004, 09:59 PM
:fireozzie

OEO Magglio
09-16-2004, 10:06 PM
A case could be made that this franchise is about to embark on its darkest period since '86-'87. the mid-to-late '90's were pretty dark too, but at least Thomas was in his prime and Ventura was at third for some of that timeand Ordonez and Durham were on their way up. The pitching staff still had Alvarez, Fernandez, and Hernandez too.
And why is that, cause we traded Jeremy Reed?

OurBitchinMinny
09-16-2004, 10:09 PM
And why is that, cause we traded Jeremy Reed?
oh yes, the great jeremy reed who hasnt done a damn thing yet. I dont include freddy garcia among the numerous gutless wonders on this team and im glad to have him for next year

dcb33
09-16-2004, 10:10 PM
KW knows the budget, he just doesnt adjust well to it when dealing with players. What in the hell was he thinking saddling himself with Everett's contract for next year? Can the Sox really afford Contreras at 6 mil a yr for 2 years when he's so erratic? At least two straight years now where KW failed to get the Sox a true 5th starter heading into the year. KW"s continuing to sign Sandy Alomar each year. There's been too many screwups by KW for him to keep a job. If they were succeeding, that's allowable. But not when they suck as much as they do.The reason this garbage keeps happening is because this team is completely mismanaged at the upper levels, almost as bad as the Mets. Ownership thinks it's a small market team, but shells out a middle market payroll, then places demands on the GM to go out and win which forces the GM to make dramatic trades similar to what big market teams make in order to put themselves over the top (which never happens for us because we don't have the level of talent that teams like the Yankees or Red Sox or Dodgers do to begin with) in order to save his own rear end. The end result is a team that can win 80-90 games, always mediocre, but never good enough to win. We lack a clear focus- are we going to be a small market team like the A's and Twins that rely on player development and shrewd personnel decisions, or are we going to act like a big market team and spend like the Yankess, Red Sox and Angels? All we've done the last few years is sit on the fence and these are the results.

How can anyone want to blame Ozzie for what's happened when Crede is your 3rd Baseman, Jose is the Shortstop, and Joe Borchard is your starting right fielder for a significant chunk of the season? These players are not winners.

OEO Magglio
09-16-2004, 10:11 PM
oh yes, the great jeremy reed who hasnt done a damn thing yet. I dont include freddy garcia among the numerous gutless wonders on this team and im glad to have him for next year
No doubt minny, I hope you know that comment was being sarcastic, I thought it was obvious enough that it didn't need teal. :smile:

Wealz
09-16-2004, 10:28 PM
And why is that, cause we traded Jeremy Reed?
See excellent post #14 in this thread by DCB. Lack of a clear focus, lack of a plan.

soxtalker
09-16-2004, 10:29 PM
The reason this garbage keeps happening is because this team is completely mismanaged at the upper levels, almost as bad as the Mets. Ownership thinks it's a small market team, but shells out a middle market payroll, then places demands on the GM to go out and win which forces the GM to make dramatic trades similar to what big market teams make in order to put themselves over the top (which never happens for us because we don't have the level of talent that teams like the Yankees or Red Sox or Dodgers do to begin with) in order to save his own rear end. The end result is a team that can win 80-90 games, always mediocre, but never good enough to win. We lack a clear focus- are we going to be a small market team like the A's and Twins that rely on player development and shrewd personnel decisions, or are we going to act like a big market team and spend like the Yankess, Red Sox and Angels? All we've done the last few years is sit on the fence and these are the results.
...

A common theme among people on the board who support KW is that he is put in a difficult (some would say impossible) situation by the budget constraints of JR. However, I suspect that KW would still go for high-risk trades, even if he had a higher budget. The options would be different / better, but more money wouldn't change his personality. It something that a lot of people around here like and some dislike.

OEO Magglio
09-16-2004, 10:30 PM
See excellent post #14 in this thread by DCB. Lack of a clear focus, lack of a plan.
Lack of a plan?? Have you not been reading all these articles floating around here for a while. He wants to add another top flight starter, add more speed, add more ozzieball type players. Sounds like the sox have a plan in place to me.

dcb33
09-16-2004, 10:42 PM
A common theme among people on the board who support KW is that he is put in a difficult (some would say impossible) situation by the budget constraints of JR. However, I suspect that KW would still go for high-risk trades, even if he had a higher budget. The options would be different / better, but more money wouldn't change his personality. It something that a lot of people around here like and some dislike.And that's as much of an indictment of KW as it is the ownership. JR has thrown down the gauntlet- this is how much you're going to have to spend on your team. Unfortunately, for KW, he has been able to do nothing but piddle away what resources we have on lightning in the bottle deals and schemes which won't help the team in the long run.
If ownership acts and thinks we're a small market team, so be it. The thing is, our "small market" team is bigger in terms of $$$ than either Oakland or Minnesota, so you could easily make the case that KW has been the biggest failure of all because he doesn't realize that if he were to build a strong farm system and make the same smart decisions on young talent, free agents, etc. as some of these other teams have done we could still blow them out of the water becuase we have 10-15 million more per year to spend than they do. We could probably actually win it all if we were more focused in that way because the Oaklands and Minnesotas of the world have missed one or two guys the past several years to put themselves over the top, the guy the Sox could easily afford if we were in the same position.

And no, adding a pitcher or two and some "grinders" to play "Ozzieball" in the offseason isn't going to do jack, because it's not a real plan, we're just tinkering with the same broken down team we've had to deal with the last 5 years.

JoseCanseco6969
09-16-2004, 10:49 PM
:fireozzie
Wow great insight! Fire a manager after one injury plagued year, very smart! Especially when a lot of his players arent those who fit his style of baseball/managing. I think we all know the list of who needs to go and it isnt Ozzie. So take your fire ozzie picture and fire it straight up your you know what. There I said it! Wow it sure is frustrating being a Sox fan.

Lip Man 1
09-16-2004, 10:50 PM
dcb33:

Excellent comments on not knowing what this team wants to be...small market or ???

If they are going to be 'small market' then they damn sure better fire the entire scouting / talent evaluating staff because our minor leaguers are AWFUL when they get to the bigs especially pitching.

If you want to be 'small market,' that's fine...then go out and hire the finest scouts and evaluators, spend whatever money is needed to get them.

I think your point was the Sox don't know if they want to s@#$, piss, run, walk or sleep. (and it shows...)

Lip

Wealz
09-16-2004, 10:56 PM
Lack of a plan?? Have you not been reading all these articles floating around here for a while. He wants to add another top flight starter, add more speed, add more ozzieball type players. Sounds like the sox have a plan in place to me.
That's next year's plan (I won't even debate its merit.) '06? Who cares, gotta win now. All the while the franchise gets further and further away from a World Series, because among other things management has zero patience. The Sox may not have revenue streams to support an $80-$90M payroll, but there's no excuse for not posessing a realistic game plan to win a World Series within their financial resources AND sticking to it. The only thing I've heard articulated by Williams on this subject is that they hope a playoff birth, pennant winning team, will increase revenues enough so that they can have a major market payroll. That plan simply isn't good enough for me.

Wealz
09-16-2004, 10:57 PM
dcb33:

Excellent comments on not knowing what this team wants to be...small market or ???

If they are going to be 'small market' then they damn sure better fire the entire scouting / talent evaluating staff because our minor leaguers are AWFUL when they get to the bigs especially pitching.

If you want to be 'small market,' that's fine...then go out and hire the finest scouts and evaluators, spend whatever money is needed to get them.

I think your point was the Sox don't know if they want to s@#$, piss, run, walk or sleep. (and it shows...)

Lip
Bingo Lip.

bigfoot
09-16-2004, 11:07 PM
Lip~If by "team", you refer to the ownership, I'm with you all the way. The ability of the "JR spin machine" to proclaim Chicago as a "small/medium" market, the inability of the local media to take them to task and the lack of demand of the fan-base to demand a better product on the field have all contributed to the play that we see every day. Maybe PT Barnum was right.

I'm ssang, and I'm still an IDIOT!
09-16-2004, 11:39 PM
The reason this garbage keeps happening is because this team is completely mismanaged at the upper levels, almost as bad as the Mets. Ownership thinks it's a small market team, but shells out a middle market payroll, then places demands on the GM to go out and win which forces the GM to make dramatic trades similar to what big market teams make in order to put themselves over the top (which never happens for us because we don't have the level of talent that teams like the Yankees or Red Sox or Dodgers do to begin with) in order to save his own rear end. The end result is a team that can win 80-90 games, always mediocre, but never good enough to win. We lack a clear focus- are we going to be a small market team like the A's and Twins that rely on player development and shrewd personnel decisions, or are we going to act like a big market team and spend like the Yankess, Red Sox and Angels? All we've done the last few years is sit on the fence and these are the results.

How can anyone want to blame Ozzie for what's happened when Crede is your 3rd Baseman, Jose is the Shortstop, and Joe Borchard is your starting right fielder for a significant chunk of the season? These players are not winners.
This post is the best post I've seen this entire season! I agree 100%. This is THE problem. This is the first time I've actually seen a post that has hit the White Sox problems to a tee. The way this team is run is completley out of whack. We need to pick a strategy and go full steam ahead with it. Reinsdorf has failed big-time.

On another note. I think Ken Williams is an egotistical jerk and a very poor GM. But that's entirely different subject.

Soxzilla
09-17-2004, 09:00 AM
Wow great insight! Fire a manager after one injury plagued year, very smart! Especially when a lot of his players arent those who fit his style of baseball/managing. I think we all know the list of who needs to go and it isnt Ozzie. So take your fire ozzie picture and fire it straight up your you know what. There I said it! Wow it sure is frustrating being a Sox fan.
His style of baseball? So, your basically saying you want some 'grinders' in the pen? I say this because I haven't seen worse management of a bullpen since...well, gandhi was head honcho.

When shingo isn't out there for every save situation (After koch left), you know the manager has no idea what the hell he is doing.

balke
09-17-2004, 01:28 PM
A common theme among people on the board who support KW is that he is put in a difficult (some would say impossible) situation by the budget constraints of JR. However, I suspect that KW would still go for high-risk trades, even if he had a higher budget. The options would be different / better, but more money wouldn't change his personality. It something that a lot of people around here like and some dislike.
Baseball is nothing but risk. What if the sox acquired Jason Giambi? What if the sox traded Buerhle for Mike Mussina? Pettite? Why isn't Loaiza Loaiza anymore, Halladay HIMself? Look at the flubs "unbeatable" pitching staff. How about signing the A.L's reliever of the year as a 2nd year vet for 3 seasons? How about signing a SS for 20 mil a year for 15 mil #'s? or a 15 mil pitcher for 2 mil #'s (Bartolo). Some of the riskiest pickups have never faulted. Before this season, was Randy Johnson, or Barry Bonds a lock to be the best pitcher, and best hitter w/o any injuries? They're in their 40's now for crying out loud.

Baseball is crazy, like any sport. Two injuries can crumble a team. Pitchers are generally inconsistant one year to the next. Headcases are everywhere. I love baseball. I love the "risks" Kenny takes.

LVSoxFan
09-17-2004, 03:56 PM
And that's as much of an indictment of KW as it is the ownership. JR has thrown down the gauntlet- this is how much you're going to have to spend on your team. Unfortunately, for KW, he has been able to do nothing but piddle away what resources we have on lightning in the bottle deals and schemes which won't help the team in the long run.
If ownership acts and thinks we're a small market team, so be it. The thing is, our "small market" team is bigger in terms of $$$ than either Oakland or Minnesota, so you could easily make the case that KW has been the biggest failure of all because he doesn't realize that if he were to build a strong farm system and make the same smart decisions on young talent, free agents, etc. as some of these other teams have done we could still blow them out of the water becuase we have 10-15 million more per year to spend than they do. We could probably actually win it all if we were more focused in that way because the Oaklands and Minnesotas of the world have missed one or two guys the past several years to put themselves over the top, the guy the Sox could easily afford if we were in the same position.

And no, adding a pitcher or two and some "grinders" to play "Ozzieball" in the offseason isn't going to do jack, because it's not a real plan, we're just tinkering with the same broken down team we've had to deal with the last 5 years.I feel the same way, and my baseball-nut co-workers have pointed this out as well. Why not be the small-market team to the Cubs big-market team (and pocketbook). Our problem, IMO, is marquee players at huge pricetags mixed in with scrubs. Riding the fence. Trying to have it both ways and achieving neither.

I say as you say: forget trying to fork out for these lightning-in-a-bottle big pricetags or former glories (Alomar, Everett, etc.) and start putting together a farm system that can bring us a TEAM.

Let's face it, save for Santana and a couple of others, Milwaukee ain't exactly the All Star lineup that NY Yankees are--but they play so damn well as a TEAM--made painfully honest these last three games--that they're awesome. And for all the slugfests that we enjoyed first half with our big guns, to go from that to the get-shutout-or-score-13-runs feast or famine of the 2nd half was just traumatic. I'd rather see small-ball wins then either slugfest-or-shutout.

As much as I want to blame KW--which is reasonable--the problem in the end is JR. I remember Hawk and DJ talking about the new Anaheim owner who bought the team from Disney and turned it around. The guy loves the team, will spend the money, loves the fans, and actually LOWERED concession prices in the park. He goes to the games, mingles with the fans, enjoys the experience. JR is a penny-pinching troll who already ruined one Chicago franchise and has consistently torched this one, not the least of which was the White Flag trade.

It's too early to tell with Ozzie. I personally love him and was glad to see him arrive. But just as we've described, how do you manage a mishmash team of big-money superstars, inconsistent head cases (Crede, Harris, etc.) and flat-out scrubs (Borchard)? The mix is all wrong. I'd rather see a bunch of mediocre players gell as a team than a schizophrenic mix of great, good, so-so and lame.

DJ pointed out last night that you never seen Uribe--who's a keeper--and Perez (another) played consistently. Hell, boot Crede (or at least make him a backup) and retire Valentin and put these guys in the infield with Willie (give him one last chance) and see what these cats could do, by giving them time to play together. We've got Lee and Rowand in the outfield already--I'm sure we can find a decent right fielder.

I don't care--anything. But it all begins, IMO, with what you say. Quit trying to be a poor-man's Yankees, while staying above Minnesota when it comes to big names. It hasn't worked, it doesn't work, and it's not gonna work--under Ozzie or anybody else.

Let the Cubs spend the big money, which they can afford. As we're seeing, even filling your roster with bonafide superstars isn't necessarily a trip to the playoffs--they still may make it, but everybody thought they would absolutely roll this year. And who did roll? You guessed it--a "small market" team that plays team ball amazingly.

I realize that Frank and Ordonez were out 1/2 the season, but it didn't stop Minnesota when they had big injuries. It's called having a bench...

Tragg
09-17-2004, 10:44 PM
How can anyone want to blame Ozzie for what's happened when Crede is your 3rd Baseman, Jose is the Shortstop, and Joe Borchard is your starting right fielder for a significant chunk of the season? These players are not winners.Okay but what about Ozzie suggests that he's a professional manager?

In my view he has mishandled the pitching staff pretty consistently and then, frankly, has acted unprofessionally with his big mouth. It's funny to read and to root for him, but his public yakking about his beef with the ump was not professional and did not help the Sox; and his comments toward Schowalter (who could outmanage Guillen any time, any place---look how many games he won with that medioce collection of players this year) were petty and unprofessional as well.

hose
09-18-2004, 12:48 AM
As a fan I don't see much to get excited about.

I've lost hope in our farm system to be of any help for next season, may be in a few years guys like BMac, Honel, Sweeny, Gio, or Anderson can make a impact.

I don't have any confidence in KW to make the right decision on trading players or signing mid level and up free agents.

The starting pitching is weak , the bull pen is one of the worse in MLB , we have no second baseman that can hit, , Valentin is washed up, Borchard is hitting .150, Crede's bat is not getting it done...:(:

Ozzie's honeymoon period is over with the local media and he is going to get ripped on every comment he makes this winter going into spring training. It is going to get real ugly with drill rods like Moronotti , Burns and Boerstein belittling everything about the Sox their fans ......next year will be a nightmare.

dcb33
09-18-2004, 01:23 AM
Okay but what about Ozzie suggests that he's a professional manager?

In my view he has mishandled the pitching staff pretty consistently and then, frankly, has acted unprofessionally with his big mouth. It's funny to read and to root for him, but his public yakking about his beef with the ump was not professional and did not help the Sox; and his comments toward Schowalter (who could outmanage Guillen any time, any place---look how many games he won with that medioce collection of players this year) were petty and unprofessional as well.
I didn't say that Ozzie was a professional manager. I said how can anyone blame Ozzie for what has happened considering the lack of talent he has to work with.
To say that Ozzie is unprofessional because he talks by comparing him to the king of the MLB manager mouth-runners Buck Schowalter is flat out hilarious- Ozzie speaks his mind, Schowalter is just an arrogant jerk that goes over the top. Schowalter fired the first shots in that argument, and he got a well-deserved response. If only we would've done the same with Torii Hunter.
Also, I don't know if I would call Texas mediocre, considering they have one of the best young infields in MLB...

SEALgep
09-18-2004, 07:49 AM
We're all disappointed from this season, and it's natural to look for a fall guy. However, Ozzie isn't it. This is the same team that has fallen short for the past four years. Now all of a sudden it's Ozzie being inexperience and unprofessional. That's crap, we need pitching and a balanced lineup. I'm more inclined to give him a bad rap after a couple seasons with a team he helped put together.

TornLabrum
09-18-2004, 09:12 AM
If Ozzie is so bad, how come this team is only slightly worse without Thomas and Ordonez than Manuel's was WITH them?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2004, 09:25 AM
The only person who *ought* to be embarrassed by this team is Jerry Reinsdorf.

These are HIS players,
acquired by HIS GM,
developed by HIS farm system,
managed by HIS manager,

and served up at major league prices to be purchased by us HIS fans.

Jerry Reinsdorf OUGHT to be embarrassed. He's not.

And if he says he is embarrassed, it is only because he sees it as a convenient excuse for gutting this team of its high-priced talent so he can send all of us on another 5 year sojourn in search of cheap winless talent. We've been down this path with him before... most infamously in 1997.

:selljerry

Hangar18
09-18-2004, 12:27 PM
The only person who *ought* to be embarrassed by this team is Jerry Reinsdorf.

These are HIS players,
acquired by HIS GM,
developed by HIS farm system,
managed by HIS manager,

and served up at major league prices to be purchased by us HIS fans.

Jerry Reinsdorf OUGHT to be embarrassed. He's not.

And if he says he is embarrassed, it is only because he sees it as a convenient excuse for gutting this team of its high-priced talent so he can send all of us on another 5 year sojourn in search of cheap winless talent. We've been down this path with him before... most infamously in 1997.


Agreed. Wholeheartedly. Im ANXIOUSLY waiting for the offseason, to
see just what Uncle Jerry does next. I can begin to tell you how ANGRY I will be, if he tries to peddle the " Were-Small-Market " BS to us, so that he can use the excuse of "hey, theyre not winning with big contracts, Were going with Young and Hungy (read: Cheaper) Players!!" This is the same guy, Jerry Reinsdorf, who pays Consulting Firms $100,000 to do a study and tell him that FANS WANT TO WIN. WHat a bunch of BS. I did a Study for him just the other nite ....... IN Minneapolis. FREE OF CHARGE Jerry.
Any my STUDY says, Minnesotans believe THEY are SMALL MARKET and CHICAGO IS BIG MARKET. So .....Mr Reinsdorf, who are you gonna
believe now ?

:reinsy
" er wait a second ...did you say FREE? As in I dont have to pay?"

Soxfest
09-18-2004, 07:03 PM
This his team has laid down since August 1st like a cheap hooker.