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View Full Version : Too Much Talk, Too Little Heart


LincolnSquareOz
09-16-2004, 07:37 AM
I'm tired of all the jabbering coming from this team. Has it come to this? Must we do the talking in the papers to compensate for our lack of fight on the field?

Buehrle is too good a player to let himself look and sound so petty complaining about the Twins going to the playoffs. We've got no room to whine. We could even learn a few things about playing hard baseball. CLee did a great job of that the other night with the hard slide into 2nd. You get plunked and you get a little angry. You respond forcefully within the course of the ballgame. It's natural. You can't even fault Hunter for being mad after getting hit by Freddy. Do you expect him to have enjoyed it?

Thankfully Ozzie understands this part of the game and once he gets "his" pieces in place we're going to see better results. It may not be reflected in the W-L column right away, but I guarantee you will notice a vast difference in effort...

Fungo
09-16-2004, 08:53 AM
Thankfully Ozzie understands this part of the game and once he gets "his" pieces in place we're going to see better results. It may not be reflected in the W-L column right away, but I guarantee you will notice a vast difference in effort...Garbage. Anyone on this board could manage "once he gets "his" pieces in place". You earn your stripes as a manager managing the team & playeres you have. Maybe Ozzie should have a talk with his former boss, Bobby Cox, who made something out of nothing this year.

SOXSINCE'70
09-16-2004, 08:58 AM
I'm tired of all the jabbering coming from this team. Has it come to this? Must we do the talking in the papers to compensate for our lack of fight on the field?

Buehrle is too good a player to let himself look and sound so petty complaining about the Twins going to the playoffs. We've got no room to whine. We could even learn a few things about playing hard baseball. CLee did a great job of that the other night with the hard slide into 2nd. You get plunked and you get a little angry. You respond forcefully within the course of the ballgame. It's natural. You can't even fault Hunter for being mad after getting hit by Freddy. Do you expect him to have enjoyed it?

Thankfully Ozzie understands this part of the game and once he gets "his" pieces in place we're going to see better results. It may not be reflected in the W-L column right away, but I guarantee you will notice a vast difference in effort...
What would really help is an ownership that realises Chicago is not a small or mid-city market and start acting like a big city market.Make trades and free agent acquisitions that will help this ballclub in 2005.The farm system is barren,so you can't go there.The White Sox are going to have to look at first,second and third tier FA's this offseason.The impossible mission rests in the hands of KW and Ozzie:convincing Reinsdork and the investors that if you want to draw 2 mill plus each year,you have to make people excited to come to the park.This is not the north side Urinal.They can draw 4 million flies without trying.The "we'll add on to our team if the fans show up" days must end here and now.
But they won't.This is Reinsdork we're dealing with isn't it??

:reinsy

"You'll get nothing and like it".:angry: :angry:

PorkChopExpress
09-16-2004, 09:08 AM
Garbage. Anyone on this board could manage "once he gets "his" pieces in place". You earn your stripes as a manager managing the team & playeres you have. Maybe Ozzie should have a talk with his former boss, Bobby Cox, who made something out of nothing this year.
Give me a break. Look at the players and team Ozzie was given to manage. From the beginning of the year he's had a pitching rotation with glaring holes that were never addressed, a bullpen that leaves something to be desired, and a slump-happy offense, the two best of which went down with injuries for half the season. Yet, we are a .500 team right now. I'd say Ozzie has done just fine. This team just fell apart as usual. Don't tell me there is someone else who has some special skills that Ozzie doesn't that could have done better.

iwannago
09-16-2004, 10:22 AM
Give me a break. Look at the players and team Ozzie was given to manage. From the beginning of the year he's had a pitching rotation with glaring holes that were never addressed, a bullpen that leaves something to be desired, and a slump-happy offense, the two best of which went down with injuries for half the season. Yet, we are a .500 team right now. I'd say Ozzie has done just fine. This team just fell apart as usual. Don't tell me there is someone else who has some special skills that Ozzie doesn't that could have done better.
I'll second that!

ma-gaga
09-16-2004, 11:07 AM
I freaking lost the thread I was going to put this into. But Lip mentioned the talking the other day and chisoxinminny was talking about the St.Paul papers and "phenom" Mauer and standings. So I 'geeked' out a bit:

To the victors belong the spoils...

...

I was embarassed by Buehrle's comments today in the Daily Southtown. The make the Sox look petty and vindictive. The Twins are going to the playoffs for the third year in a row, something the Sox have never done in over 100 years of baseball.

...

The Twins will have finished better then the Sox for four straight seasons now. That is NOT a fluke, that's not luck. It's time for this organization (and fans) to deal with it.



I hate the way the Twin Cities media perpetuates the "disrespect", but this article really made me mad as well. The W.Sox are a better team than to continuously complain about their fate.



Last I checked it was a team game. Lose two players and you have to adjust.





wrote that he figured the twins would be five games better if joe mauer had played making their lead even more insurmountable. Dont know how he did the math on that one





That's a pretty easy one if you like Win Shares. If Mauer was healthy, and maintained his offensive productionthat 900 OPS, which isn't very likely, but who knows, he was a #1 pick. Anyways, he earned 5.8 Win Shares in 35 games, Blanco 2.5 in 100 games. Hmm... Let's say they reverese each other. Mauer plays in 100 games, Blanco 35.



JM: 100/35 * 5.8 = 16.6

HB: 35/100 * 2.5 = 0.9

Delta WS = 17.5

WS/3 = 5.8 games. The Twins easily win 5 games more IF Mauer is healthy and continues to pound the ball.



Ok, let's do Maggs/Thomas:

MO: 7.6 in 52 games

FT: 11.7 in 74 games

Their replacements:

TP: 5.2 in 95 games

CE: 3.4 in 42 games

RG: 3.5 in 92 games

JB: -1.2 in 45 games



Iím going to prorate and add Magglio and Thomas for 135 games, then subtract all of Everetts, Borchards and ľ of Perez/Gloads since that looks like that is kind of the way the playing time was split up (please correct me if Iím wrong, and Iíll rerun the numbers):



MO: 7.6 * 135/52 = 19.8

FT: 11.7 * 135/74 = 21.3

Total WS to add: 41.1

ľ TP: 1.3

CE : 3.4

ľ RG: 0.9

JB: -1.2 (ouch, this guy hurts me too look at)

Total WS to subtract: 4.4

Delta WS = 41.1 Ė 4.4 = 36.7

WS/3 = 12.3



So, the Twins gain 5.8 wins, and the W.Sox gain an astounding 12.3 wins. Both are a little unrealistic, and I know that Winshares ARENíT supposed to be used as a projection tool, but it really gives a good idea of where the teams would be at fully healthy.



So the Twins would probably still be in first with an 87-58 record (added 2 wins and subtracted 2 losses), but the W.Sox ONLY gain 6 wins (and subtract 6 losses) to go to 78-66. Itís respectable, but only Texas Rangersí respectable. They would still be 8.5 games back.



:gulp:

nodiggity59
09-16-2004, 11:11 AM
Garbage. Anyone on this board could manage "once he gets "his" pieces in place". You earn your stripes as a manager managing the team & playeres you have. Maybe Ozzie should have a talk with his former boss, Bobby Cox, who made something out of nothing this year.
Oh come on. Cox has Leo Mazzone. Leo Mazzone = good pitching staff.

It's a lot easier when your pitching is always good.

balke
09-16-2004, 11:28 AM
Give me a break. Look at the players and team Ozzie was given to manage. From the beginning of the year he's had a pitching rotation with glaring holes that were never addressed, a bullpen that leaves something to be desired, and a slump-happy offense, the two best of which went down with injuries for half the season. Yet, we are a .500 team right now. I'd say Ozzie has done just fine. This team just fell apart as usual. Don't tell me there is someone else who has some special skills that Ozzie doesn't that could have done better.
Yeah, and Manuel was great too! Ozzie hadn't made a solid decision all season. This is his first year, let him slide a litte, fine. Lou Pinella, Bobby Cox, Mckeon, heck Grady Little could do a better job than Ozzie right now!

Saying we'd be in 1st is a stretch, but besides little, those managers could have, and have worked miracles on teams. Don't tell me a coach doesn't matter, when Mckeon inherits a team 11 1/2 games back at the All-Star Break, and wins them the world Series.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:u-4jeGAVVBkJ:ca.yimg.com/i/ca/reuters/20031104/i/1611604031.jpg
"Don't blame me, blame my gut".

bluestar
09-16-2004, 12:24 PM
Oh come on. Cox has Leo Mazzone. Leo Mazzone = good pitching staff.

It's a lot easier when your pitching is always good.
I've been guilty of this same opinion in the past, but after this year, I disagree. Mazzone is probably as good as it gets, but Cox has proven himself this year (if not in past years). That pitching staff has not been dominant this year. Cox has managed his ass off this year, and I think he deserves the Manager of the Year award in the NL.

Flight #24
09-16-2004, 12:28 PM
So, the Twins gain 5.8 wins, and the W.Sox gain an astounding 12.3 wins. Both are a little unrealistic, and I know that Winshares ARENíT supposed to be used as a projection tool, but it really gives a good idea of where the teams would be at fully healthy.

So the Twins would probably still be in first with an 87-58 record (added 2 wins and subtracted 2 losses), but the W.Sox ONLY gain 6 wins (and subtract 6 losses) to go to 78-66. Itís respectable, but only Texas Rangersí respectable. They would still be 8.5 games back.


:gulp:
The problem is that in the past few weeks, the lead has moved from around 7 to double digits as the team has kind of given up. That wouldn't have happened if we were a couple out, so the real differential would probably be in the 3 game range. I'd take being 3 games out right now, with 4 to play (3 at USCF) and a bunch of other games. It also doesn't factor in that you keep Rauch/Majewski, enabling you to deal them for more bullpen/5th starter help.

Any way you slice it, I think it's highly likely that we were either in or within a few games of first if healthy.

balke
09-16-2004, 01:21 PM
So, the Twins gain 5.8 wins, and the W.Sox gain an astounding 12.3 wins. Both are a little unrealistic, and I know that Winshares ARENíT supposed to be used as a projection tool, but it really gives a good idea of where the teams would be at fully healthy.

So the Twins would probably still be in first with an 87-58 record (added 2 wins and subtracted 2 losses), but the W.Sox ONLY gain 6 wins (and subtract 6 losses) to go to 78-66. Itís respectable, but only Texas Rangersí respectable. They would still be 8.5 games back.

:gulp:
Mad Props to Ma-gaga for using FACTS to support the idea that we wouldn't be in 1st w/o our studs.

Although as a hopeless optimist, I would argue the variables are too great to conclude this. Frank and Maggs affected trades possible, their presence in the lineup pushes bad stats out (see Roberto, Borchard, Everett) and we'd still have all those scoreless innings from Rauch.