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SoxxoS
09-14-2004, 01:13 PM
If it seriously took him until late August to realize he had a problem, I don't want him on the team next year. That is just being moronic.

When his batting average dipped under .230 in late August, Crede finally realized he needed some extra help. So he went to Walker.
"Joe has a move in his lower half that creates a bad swing plane,'' Walker said. "As much as we've seen it and as much as we've talked about it, in the back of his mind he's always said, 'Well, I've hit like that before.' He didn't believe he needed to make a change.
Walker says: "My belief is you can hit with bad mechanics, but you're going to be a streaky hitter. When he got off to a bad start this season, his bad mechanics got worse. And his thought process got worse because he started pressing. About three weeks ago, it really hit him in the face that he needed to make a change.''
http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sox.asp

Flight #24
09-14-2004, 01:18 PM
If it seriously took him until late August to realize he had a problem, I don't want him on the team next year. That is just being moronic.




http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sox.asp
Even if he's a moron, if he's fixed his swing and is listening to the coaches now, it would be silly to dump him at his lowest value when improving, as this article suggests.

jeremyb1
09-14-2004, 01:20 PM
He sounds really coachable.

SoxxoS
09-14-2004, 01:22 PM
Even if he's a moron, if he's fixed his swing and is listening to the coaches now, it would be silly to dump him at his lowest value when improving, as this article suggests.
We thought the same thing in '03 when he had a 809 OPS the second half. That obviously didn't carry over.

Crede has been playing baseball for what...probably 20 years of his life? It's time the players start taking responsibility here. He should be open for opinions and tips after the first month. Waiting until late August is inexcuseable. He put himself and his thinking that he could fix his own problems ahead of the team.

Flight #24
09-14-2004, 01:50 PM
We thought the same thing in '03 when he had a 809 OPS the second half. That obviously didn't carry over.

Crede has been playing baseball for what...probably 20 years of his life? It's time the players start taking responsibility here. He should be open for opinions and tips after the first month. Waiting until late August is inexcuseable. He put himself and his thinking that he could fix his own problems ahead of the team.
All that being true, isn't it a bit foolish to dump a guy when he's at his lowest value and he's just starting to "get it"? If Sox coaches see evidence of him "getting it" and leveraging his talent, given that you'll get little in return for him it seems ludicrous to get rid of him when you can keep him around cheaply and reap the benefits if he turns it around.

If you can get something like a solid #3 SP or a 2B/SS with OBP for him, then fine. But otherwise, I can't see how you lose out by holding on to him. It's not like his salary will rpevent you from making any other moves.

SoxxoS
09-14-2004, 02:21 PM
I am all for buying low and selling high. I think, owever, the best we will see out of Crede is that 809 OPS...and that is a big "if." So KW has to evalutate him realistically, not with the retarded belief that he is going to be Scott Rolen-lite. He isn't going to be Vance Law the way he is headed.

iwannago
09-14-2004, 02:28 PM
Maybe Joe B should ask for some help too.

Tekijawa
09-14-2004, 02:48 PM
Maybe Joe B should ask for some help too.
I think we just have a problem with Joe's! Joe C., Joe B., and Joe V. just can't hit!

bc2k
09-14-2004, 04:03 PM
If Crede is really improving--which I highly doubt--then he can go to Puerto Rico and play winter ball to turn those improvements into habit/ muscle memory, allowing him to be a better Sox player in 2005. If Crede doesn't go to winter ball, he isn't serious about improving his play or team.

Crede deserves no more tolerance. Time to put in the effort or get off the team.

HebrewHammer
09-14-2004, 04:05 PM
:crede
"My average is how low? I don't see a problem, I've hit like this before. I blame it on the guy throwing the ball."
:angry:

bc2k
09-14-2004, 04:08 PM
Someone needs to let Crede borrow Rowand's old dirtbike.

batmanZoSo
09-14-2004, 04:40 PM
I am all for buying low and selling high. I think, owever, the best we will see out of Crede is that 809 OPS...and that is a big "if." So KW has to evalutate him realistically, not with the retarded belief that he is going to be Scott Rolen-lite. He isn't going to be Vance Law the way he is headed.
Scoot Rolen-lite, yeah...more like Scott Rolen No Sugar Added. No talent either.

Daver
09-14-2004, 04:56 PM
I take it no one feels that Greg Walker should be questioned why he would allow this to happen in the first place?

soxfan26
09-14-2004, 05:05 PM
If Crede is really improving--which I highly doubt--then he can go to Puerto Rico and play winter ball to turn those improvements into habit/ muscle memory, allowing him to be a better Sox player in 2005. If Crede doesn't go to winter ball, he isn't serious about improving his play or team.

Crede deserves no more tolerance. Time to put in the effort or get off the team.
Exactly. Crede should be put on notice for next year. The everyday 3B job is NOT yours, neither is a spot on the 25 man roster. Earn it with your play and committed approach to improving at the ML level. Playing in winter ball would be a great way for him to prove he wants to be here.

SoxxoS
09-14-2004, 05:13 PM
I take it no one feels that Greg Walker should be questioned why he would allow this to happen in the first place?
I figure you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

balke
09-14-2004, 05:27 PM
I take it no one feels that Greg Walker should be questioned why he would allow this to happen in the first place?
Walker helped Konerko. They used to have similar swings. Paulie was super dedicated to breaking his slump. I don't know if Crede is or not, but he better be if he wants to adjust. HE'll probably have to reinvent his swing altogether.

Mohoney
09-14-2004, 05:54 PM
I take it no one feels that Greg Walker should be questioned why he would allow this to happen in the first place?
I agree that this coaching staff should shoulder some of this burden. Walker to an extent, and Cooper to an even bigger extent.

Maybe now they will let Ozzie pick some of his coaches instead of just leaving him with Manuel holdovers.

So far, the only coaches Guillen has been allowed to pick are Cora and Baines. Let the man pick his pitching and hitting coaches.

If Ozzie's happy with the jobs that Walker and Cooper have done this year, then fine. Otherwise, let Ozzie pick his own coaches.

Daver
09-14-2004, 06:13 PM
I'm not sure why Cooper is viewed with such a critical eye, aside from Shoenweiss getting hurt he has done what he should, keep his staff healthy. He was stuck with a lot of pitchers in the fifth starter spot that were beyond his immediate control.


Greg Walker however, has done a rather poor job of recognizing problems and addressing them before they turned into habits. I don't remember this happening when Von Joshua was the hitting coach in 2001.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-14-2004, 06:31 PM
....Greg Walker however, has done a rather poor job of recognizing problems and addressing them before they turned into habits. I don't remember this happening when Von Joshua was the hitting coach in 2001.
Well, it was Von's fault that Manuel kept writing in "Ramirez" and "Clayton" in the #8/9 hole for most of the month of May '01.

And it was Von's fault that Royce Clayton had some important music to listen to with his headphones inside the clubhouse rather than taking extra BP.

And of course it was Von's fault that the players needed to watch "Meet the Parents" rather than do their pre-game workouts.

And that's why Gary Ward got the job. The hitting coach wasn't getting the job done back in 2001.
:wink:

:jerry
"Butter wouldn't melt in my mouth."

mdep524
09-14-2004, 06:46 PM
If Crede is really improving--which I highly doubt--then he can go to Puerto Rico and play winter ball to turn those improvements into habit/ muscle memory, allowing him to be a better Sox player in 2005. If Crede doesn't go to winter ball, he isn't serious about improving his play or team.

Crede deserves no more tolerance. Time to put in the effort or get off the team.I think Crede has been terrible this year too, but dumping him now could backfire bigtime. After Aramis Ramirez's big breakout year in '01, he had a pretty dismal '02 campaign, which is eerily similar to Crede's '04. Look at this:

Crede 2004: .236 BA 17 HR 59 RBI 77 SO .296 OBP in 127 games
Ramirez 2002: .234 BA 18 HR 71 RBI 95 SO .279 OBP in 142 games

Is Crede destined to be Aramis Ramirez? Uh, probably not. For one thing, Ramirez had that solid '01 season under his belt while this will be Crede's second disappointing season in a row. But still, does anyone remember how bad Ramirez was in '02?? (I do, especially because he was on my fantasy team.) He was a butcher in the field, and an undisciplined whiffer at the plate. Then in '03, poof, it's like a different player. So you never know.

balke
09-14-2004, 06:50 PM
I think Crede has been terrible this year too, but dumping him now could backfire bigtime. After Aramis Ramirez's big breakout year in '01, he had a pretty dismal '02 campaign, which is eerily similar to Crede's '04. Look at this:

Crede 2004: .236 BA 17 HR 59 RBI 77 SO .296 OBP in 127 games
Ramirez 2002: .234 BA 18 HR 71 RBI 95 SO .279 OBP in 142 games

Is Crede destined to be Aramis Ramirez? Uh, probably not. For one thing, Ramirez had that solid '01 season under his belt while this will be Crede's second disappointing season in a row. But still, does anyone remember how bad Ramirez was in '02?? (I do, especially because he was on my fantasy team.) He was a butcher in the field, and an undisciplined whiffer at the plate. Then in '03, poof, it's like a different player. So you never know.
don't forget the 22 doubles. it's that whole "streaky" thing that's bothersome. That and sox fans had pretty high hopes for him this season. I definitely think if he works on it, he can turn things around. But Joe's never been that "confident" take charge kinda player, so the likelihood of him turning things around might be pretty slim.

SoxxoS
09-14-2004, 07:11 PM
Crede has one of the longest swings I have ever seen. Ramirez has a much quicker bat...especially the past 2 seasons.

GiveMeSox
09-14-2004, 07:20 PM
If it seriously took him until late August to realize he had a problem, I don't want him on the team next year. That is just being moronic.




http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sox.asp
As adam sandler said in Happy Gilmore, "Yeah ya know it is about time"!