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SoxxoS
09-14-2004, 01:05 PM
How about we have lists of the biggest Sox prospects busts of the past 10 years. We all know the hyped up prospects we had/have. You can count current players performance as what their career averages will be (or close to it). I.E. Borchard probably won't have a 700 OPS (or whatever) but you can't really say he is going to improve, either. So go by current players numbers, if possible. Injuries are relevent. I will be compiling my list later on today, I have to run out...but wanted to start the topic. Should be interesting/fun/embarassing.

jeremyb1
09-14-2004, 01:59 PM
You've got to figure Borchard, Snopek, and Ruffcorn are on the list. I'm not sure I followed the minors closely enough throughout the early to mid 90s to add anything more.

iwannago
09-14-2004, 02:23 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to list any prospects that have been kept and made it?

balke
09-14-2004, 03:08 PM
Maggs
Buerhle
Clee
Olivo
Cameron
Miles
Graffanino
Rowand
biggest busts all in order

doublem23
09-14-2004, 03:25 PM
Scott Ruffcorn

OurBitchinMinny
09-14-2004, 03:26 PM
Maggs
Buerhle
Clee
Olivo
Cameron
Miles
Graffanino
Rowand
biggest busts all in orderis this a list of busts? I hope not. The only guys on the list who could still be busts are olivo and miles.

Rowand needs to show me more than one year, but hes still wont be considered a bust if he reverts to his early major league career

Biggest busts have to include
the great borchardi
jeff abbott
rauch
ruffcorn
Crede is starting to look like a bust too

Daver
09-14-2004, 04:16 PM
Rod Bolton and Jason Dellearo have to make this list........

Randar68
09-14-2004, 04:20 PM
Rod Bolton and Jason Dellearo have to make this list........
Dellearo is right up there with the best of em, although even from the day he was drafted, I don't think anyone could have considered him a "top prospect".

Do Sox draftees even if they don't sign count? Bobby Seay (sp?)? Yikes.

juanuribe
09-14-2004, 09:43 PM
Dellearo is right up there with the best of em, although even from the day he was drafted, I don't think anyone could have considered him a "top prospect".

Do Sox draftees even if they don't sign count? Bobby Seay (sp?)? Yikes.
How about Mark Johnson?

Can we count Mike Caruso since he was a prospect, and a key to the WFT?

Wasn't Jason Dellearo like 5'4", 120lbs?

Chisoxfn
09-14-2004, 11:56 PM
How about Mark Johnson?

Can we count Mike Caruso since he was a prospect, and a key to the WFT?

Wasn't Jason Dellearo like 5'4", 120lbs? Dellaero was frankly a reach, plain and simple, and a big time bust. Had a heck of an arm and if I recall went to KC. For whatever reason he never seemed to interested in the Sox plans of making him a pitcher, but he sure couldn't hit. However, the guy was a gold glover.

California Sox
09-15-2004, 12:05 AM
For the hell of it, I'll add Eddie Pearson and Jimmy Hurst to the list. And how about Johnny Ruffin?

California Sox
09-15-2004, 12:43 AM
Oh, and I had dinner with a guy who was a super nice, great guy... but a bust nonetheless: Grady Hall.

Rex Hudler
09-15-2004, 01:40 AM
Dellearo is right up there with the best of em, although even from the day he was drafted, I don't think anyone could have considered him a "top prospect".

Do Sox draftees even if they don't sign count? Bobby Seay (sp?)? Yikes.
Yeah, but did you ever see the guy play SS? It was a thing of beauty to watch him play D at SS every day. Still the best I have seen.... If only he wasn't so freakin stubborn!

Rex Hudler
09-15-2004, 01:42 AM
Scott Christman was another 1st rounder that was a huge bust......

A. Cavatica
09-15-2004, 02:21 AM
This is fun. Let's go by position.

C: I remember when the Sox called up first-round pick Rick Seilheimer for a cup of coffee. He was never heard from again. Kurt Brown was drafted even higher, but I don't remember his career.

1B: Eddie Pearson, a first round pick who didn't even hit in the minors. There was also a (Matt?) Berger who had, according to Schueler, the most power he'd ever seen. He never got out of A ball.

2B: I'm going with Willie Harris, but I'm sure I'm forgetting someone.

SS: Jason Dellaero easily over Mike Caruso.

3B: Lorenzo Gray over Chris Snopek.

LF: Jeff Abbott.

CF: Daryl Boston, but don't forget Julio Ramirez.

RF: Joe Borchard.

SP: Too easy. Almost every starting pitcher drafted in the last 25 years.

RP: Also easy. Many of the failed starters went on to fail in the bullpen.

DrCrawdad
09-15-2004, 07:48 AM
Ok Lee "Bee Bee" Richard was not in the last ten years but "Bee Bee" was a huge flop. "Bee Bee" was the Sox first round pick (6th pick) of the 1970 draft.

"Bee Bee" made his debut with the Sox in 1971 and was traded after the 1975 season. "Bee Bee" had one more season and that was it.

I believed the hype. I eagerly watched "Bee Bee" and waited for him to bust out. I remember my dad grinding and nashing his teeth about the bust known as "Bee Bee" Richard.

gosox41
09-15-2004, 08:01 AM
is this a list of busts? I hope not. The only guys on the list who could still be busts are olivo and miles.

Rowand needs to show me more than one year, but hes still wont be considered a bust if he reverts to his early major league career

Biggest busts have to include
the great borchardi
jeff abbott
rauch
ruffcorn
Crede is starting to look like a bust too
I thought Baldwin was a bust. He had a great curve and had one good half.


Bob

gosox41
09-15-2004, 08:05 AM
How about we have lists of the biggest Sox prospects busts of the past 10 years. We all know the hyped up prospects we had/have. You can count current players performance as what their career averages will be (or close to it). I.E. Borchard probably won't have a 700 OPS (or whatever) but you can't really say he is going to improve, either. So go by current players numbers, if possible. Injuries are relevent. I will be compiling my list later on today, I have to run out...but wanted to start the topic. Should be interesting/fun/embarassing.
This isn't in the last 10 years, but I've got 2 players:

1. The guy drafted right in front of Barry Bonds who never say a day in the majors.

2. Kenny Williams-Jerry Krause loved him. And injuries hampered him. But he was a hyped prospect who never lived up to the hype:


BA OBP SLG
.218 .269 .339


Bob

gosox41
09-15-2004, 08:07 AM
How about we have lists of the biggest Sox prospects busts of the past 10 years. We all know the hyped up prospects we had/have. You can count current players performance as what their career averages will be (or close to it). I.E. Borchard probably won't have a 700 OPS (or whatever) but you can't really say he is going to improve, either. So go by current players numbers, if possible. Injuries are relevent. I will be compiling my list later on today, I have to run out...but wanted to start the topic. Should be interesting/fun/embarassing.
Got another one. I don't kow if he wass overhyped or not but he was shuttled up and down from the Sox to their minor league affiliates for 4-5 years. And he was just in Maxim magazine. Unfortunately I was too young at the time to mispronounce his name and know what it means:


Rusty Kuntz



Bob

DrCrawdad
09-15-2004, 08:17 AM
Got another one. I don't kow if he wass overhyped or not but he was shuttled up and down from the Sox to their minor league affiliates for 4-5 years. And he was just in Maxim magazine. Unfortunately I was too young at the time to mispronounce his name and know what it means:

Rusty Kuntz


Yeah, but Mr. Kuntz has a World Series World Champions ring to go along with his silly name.

On Rusty's Baseball Reference page the guy who sponsored the page wrote this, "He had the critical sac fly in Game 5 of the 1984 World Series to put the Tigers ahead for good. Thanks Rusty!"

Fungo
09-15-2004, 08:53 AM
This isn't in the last 10 years, but I've got 2 players:

1. The guy drafted right in front of Barry Bonds who never say a day in the majors.

2. Kenny Williams-Jerry Krause loved him. And injuries hampered him. But he was a hyped prospect who never lived up to the hype:


BA OBP SLG
.218 .269 .339


Bob
1. Kurt Brown out of Glendora HS in California. We made up for it though by drafting Jose Mota and Glen Braxton in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Thigpen came in the 4th.

ja1022
09-15-2004, 08:59 AM
I remember a couple of highly touted CFs of the late 90s. Brian Simmons (2nd round pick) and McKay Christensen (6th pick overall for Angels in '94). As I recall, both these guys were can't miss types. They missed.

Randar68
09-15-2004, 09:42 AM
I thought Baldwin was a bust. He had a great curve and had one good half.How can we forget Mike "Smoke 'em if ya got 'em" Caruso? He wasn't drafted by us, but acquired as a very raw/young kid. In the majors by 20 or 21, out by 22 or 23?

gosox41
09-15-2004, 09:56 AM
How can we forget Mike "Smoke 'em if ya got 'em" Caruso? He wasn't drafted by us, but acquired as a very raw/young kid. In the majors by 20 or 21, out by 22 or 23?
But rumor has it he was a hit with the ladies. Scored more there then he did on the field. Too bad. I hope he got a big signing bonus.


Bob

Chisoxfn
09-15-2004, 04:17 PM
CF: Daryl Boston, but don't forget Julio Ramirez.

Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't Julio barely in the system. I was thinking the Sox claimed him from somewhere or something along those lines. I don't remember, but I'm 99.9% sure he wasn't with us. I can't remember if they got him from Florida or if he went to Florida after he left Chicgao (i know he landed in Anaheim for a while and did a solid job there).

Therefor I wouldn't consider him a bust, considering the Sox weren't the team to develop him.

Randar68
09-15-2004, 05:27 PM
CF: Daryl Boston, but don't forget Julio Ramirez.

Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't Julio barely in the system. I was thinking the Sox claimed him from somewhere or something along those lines. I don't remember, but I'm 99.9% sure he wasn't with us. I can't remember if they got him from Florida or if he went to Florida after he left Chicgao (i know he landed in Anaheim for a while and did a solid job there).

Therefor I wouldn't consider him a bust, considering the Sox weren't the team to develop him.
IIRC he was a rule 5 draft pick.

MarkEdward
09-15-2004, 06:35 PM
IIRC he was a rule 5 draft pick.
According to bb-ref.com, he was traded by the Marlins to the Sox in early December of 2000 for Jeff Abbott.

Randar68
09-15-2004, 06:45 PM
According to bb-ref.com, he was traded by the Marlins to the Sox in early December of 2000 for Jeff Abbott.
YOU ARE CORRECT SIR... thanks.

MRKARNO
09-15-2004, 06:59 PM
Mark Buerhle

Parrothead
09-15-2004, 09:06 PM
This is fun. Let's go by position.

CF: Daryl Boston, but don't forget Julio Ramirez.

I can't disagree with any person except Daryl Boston because he play in MLB for 10 years. Sure he was not the best player but he was good enough to hang around for a long time.

jeremyb1
09-15-2004, 09:32 PM
But rumor has it he was a hit with the ladies. Scored more there then he did on the field. Too bad. I hope he got a big signing bonus.


Bob

Seriously? Caruso is NOT an attractive man.

OurBitchinMinny
09-15-2004, 10:43 PM
I thought Baldwin was a bust. He had a great curve and had one good half.


Bob
true but he was one of the only guys to show up for the playoff series vs seattle

Randar68
09-15-2004, 10:49 PM
Seriously? Caruso is NOT an attractive man.
That's what I thought when I read it too. He gave Officer Karkovice a run for his money in "Moon Crater Look-Alike Contest"

flo-B-flo
09-15-2004, 11:07 PM
Wasn't current GM and resident Riensdorf shill Kenny Williams a buster?:wink:

DVsoxfan
09-16-2004, 08:35 PM
What ever happened to Mike Caruso?
What ever happened to Lorenzo Barcelo?

gosox41
09-17-2004, 07:34 AM
Seriously? Caruso is NOT an attractive man.
But he was a ML basbeall player making great money for a 20 year old, and liked to party. It's just stories that have been going around. He liked to drink a lot. Hunt Club was his spot when he was in Chicago.



Bob

poorme
09-17-2004, 09:09 AM
Wasn't current GM and resident Riensdorf shill Kenny Williams a buster?:wink:
yes he was. he and daryl boston were the best "physical specimens" to come up through the sox organization in the past 25 years. he would swing at anything.

Randar68
09-17-2004, 10:37 AM
But he was a ML basbeall player making great money for a 20 year old, and liked to party. It's just stories that have been going around. He liked to drink a lot. Hunt Club was his spot when he was in Chicago.It was more than just booze, but less than full-blown narcotics... do the math :D:

he_gone_89
09-18-2004, 12:44 AM
This is fun. Let's go by position.

C: I remember when the Sox called up first-round pick Rick Seilheimer for a cup of coffee. He was never heard from again. Kurt Brown was drafted even higher, but I don't remember his career.

1B: Eddie Pearson, a first round pick who didn't even hit in the minors. There was also a (Matt?) Berger who had, according to Schueler, the most power he'd ever seen. He never got out of A ball.

2B: I'm going with Willie Harris, but I'm sure I'm forgetting someone.

SS: Jason Dellaero easily over Mike Caruso.

3B: Lorenzo Gray over Chris Snopek.

LF: Jeff Abbott.

CF: Daryl Boston, but don't forget Julio Ramirez.

RF: Joe Borchard.

SP: Too easy. Almost every starting pitcher drafted in the last 25 years.

RP: Also easy. Many of the failed starters went on to fail in the bullpen.
A couple of people you can add

C:Josh Paul [i dunno if he sucked in the minors or not]

2B:Liu Rodriguez [called up on sept 2 2000,played 3 games]

RP: Chad Bradford [he's aight in my book,was expecting more out of him;the reason why i pitch sidearm]

OurBitchinMinny
09-18-2004, 02:06 AM
What ever happened to Mike Caruso?
What ever happened to Lorenzo Barcelo?
what the hell did happen to barcelo. wasnt he in buerhles crop of pitchers. I remember both him and buerhle pitched out of the pen in '00 I believe. I know he had a lively arm. Im guessing he blew out his elbow or something

gosox41
09-18-2004, 09:38 AM
It was more than just booze, but less than full-blown narcotics... do the math :D:
Maybe him and Rashaan Salaam were buddies.:D:


Bob

Rex Hudler
09-18-2004, 03:44 PM
what the hell did happen to barcelo. wasnt he in buerhles crop of pitchers. I remember both him and buerhle pitched out of the pen in '00 I believe. I know he had a lively arm. Im guessing he blew out his elbow or something
Barcelo blew out everything, I think. He had a myriad of injuries and never could really get healthy after surgery. He went back to the Giants for a brief time could not make it there either. I am pretty sure he is out of baseball now.

SoxxoS
09-20-2004, 12:35 AM
Barcelo blew out everything, I think. He had a myriad of injuries and never could really get healthy after surgery. He went back to the Giants for a brief time could not make it there either. I am pretty sure he is out of baseball now.
Yeah. He was real solid out of the pen in 2000, I believe.

OEO Magglio
09-20-2004, 03:28 PM
Yeah. He was real solid out of the pen in 2000, I believe.
He was, I really thought he had a chance to be very good but like Rex said he just blew his whole arm up.

Rex Hudler
09-20-2004, 05:21 PM
I think I have to call Jason Dellaero the biggest bust. For a guy who was damned near perfect defensively, he had the dumbest approach to hitting I have ever seen. He was completely unteachable and just wrong, wrong, wrong in his approach. But to watch him everyday at SS was a thing of beauty.

Clembasbal
10-07-2004, 03:14 PM
Ummmm..

Jeff Abbot #1, Greg Norton, Craig Wilson, Kip Wells and Sammy Sosa (White Sox Busts), Lyle Mouton, Scott Ruffcorn, Mario Valdez, Jeff Inglin, Mitch Wylie, Almost any pitcher from the 1999 Class - Corwin Malone, Dan Ulacia, Rob Purvis, Jason Strumm, etc, I am sure our Providence Catholic Boy is about to become a bust, Jeff Liefer, Kevin Beirne, and so on.

TheBull19
10-14-2004, 12:41 AM
Daryl Boston

dpbyron
10-26-2004, 12:33 PM
Scott Ruffcorn

SoxxoS
10-26-2004, 01:03 PM
Ummmm..

Jeff Abbot #1, Greg Norton, Craig Wilson, Kip Wells and Sammy Sosa (White Sox Busts), Lyle Mouton, Scott Ruffcorn, Mario Valdez, Jeff Inglin, Mitch Wylie, Almost any pitcher from the 1999 Class - Corwin Malone, Dan Ulacia, Rob Purvis, Jason Strumm, etc, I am sure our Providence Catholic Boy is about to become a bust, Jeff Liefer, Kevin Beirne, and so on.
You look at that list, and you just have to wonder...

Although Kevin Bierne, Inglin and Purvis really weren't "prospects" as much as just minor league "players."

MikeW
10-26-2004, 10:02 PM
Here is a couple that I remember, although it is more than ten years. Tom Drees and Russ Morman. And several from many years back, Jim Otten, Ken Frailing, Dennis O'Toole, Hugh Yancy, Cleo Kilpatrick, Mike Colbern and a guy who was the number #1 pick twice, Danny Goodwin.(once by us the other time by the Angels.

Whitesox029
10-27-2004, 01:09 AM
The Big Four:
Mike Caruso
Larry Thomas
Matt Karchner (still laughing about that trade, but maybe not much longer)
Jim Parque

Clembasbal
10-27-2004, 12:45 PM
You look at that list, and you just have to wonder...

Although Kevin Bierne, Inglin and Purvis really weren't "prospects" as much as just minor league "players."
I will half-heartly argee with you.

I always thought they were prospects because they actually had baseball cards printed by Topps. Maybe that means nothing, but to have a card when you are in the minors might give the impression that you are supposed to make it.

Rex Hudler
10-27-2004, 01:23 PM
I will half-heartly argee with you.

I always thought they were prospects because they actually had baseball cards printed by Topps. Maybe that means nothing, but to have a card when you are in the minors might give the impression that you are supposed to make it.
Bierne did make it, just not big. He spent parts of three seasons in the bigs, with the ChiSox, Toronto and the Dodgers. Inglin is/was a career minor leaguer (very good AA hitter), and Purvis has been hurt a lot. I doubt he would have made it anyway, but we'll never know.

jackbrohamer
10-29-2004, 09:16 PM
Here is a couple that I remember, although it is more than ten years. Tom Drees and Russ Morman. And several from many years back, Jim Otten, Ken Frailing, Dennis O'Toole, Hugh Yancy, Cleo Kilpatrick, Mike Colbern and a guy who was the number #1 pick twice, Danny Goodwin.(once by us the other time by the Angels.

Mike Colbern was touted pretty heavily, IIRC.

Cecil Espy?

MHOUSE
12-19-2004, 06:00 PM
In my time paying close attention to the Sox I would say:
Jon Rauch and Joe Borchard

I also vaguely remember a few guys from the mid-late 90s:
Mike Caruso, Brian Simmons, and Scott Ruffcorn

I don't think you can call Parque, Baldwin, Wells, Cameron etc. all "busts" because they have/will/did contribute at the major league level for some period of time for us and/or other teams. In the crapshoot that is minor-league prospects, I think if you get more than a full season of serviceable to decent production from a guy then you can't call him a bust.

champagne030
12-24-2004, 03:58 PM
caruso gets a pass in my book.....he beat the dubs with a homer in the basket at the urinal. ruffcorn is my poster child of a bust.

johnny_mostil
12-24-2004, 04:11 PM
This is fun. Let's go by position.

C: I remember when the Sox called up first-round pick Rick Seilheimer for a cup of coffee. He was never heard from again.
Not only did they call him up, he was what, 19? He must have gotten hurt because he didn't even play minor league ball for long. He lives in Brenham, Texas, where he grew up. He's in the phone book, somebody oughta follow up.

BigEdWalsh
02-24-2005, 10:41 AM
I remember a couple of highly touted CFs of the late 90s. Brian Simmons (2nd round pick) and McKay Christensen (6th pick overall for Angels in '94). As I recall, both these guys were can't miss types. They missed.

I have to agree about Christensen. I had high hopes for him and seriously thought he was gonna be a good hitter. As I recall he went to the Dodgers and started out well for them. Don't know what happened after that.
Simmons, I don't think was so much as a bust, as he was victim to a couple of freakish injuries. :whiner:

mikehuff
02-24-2005, 11:44 AM
I don't think you can call Parque, Baldwin, Wells, Cameron etc. all "busts" because they have/will/did contribute at the major league level

I agree with this. Baldwin and Parque were real fun to watch when they were on. Same with Kip Wells. I can't call these guys "busts," just inconsistent. These guys were very frustrating at times.
I used to love seeing Baldwin out there with that big hunk of chew in his cheek. The better he did that inning, the slower he would walk back to the dugout and he would do that slight fist pump too. Man he was great to watch.

Fake Chet Lemon
02-24-2005, 09:38 PM
I didn't see the great Joel Davis mentioned, did I?

TDog
02-24-2005, 11:53 PM
caruso gets a pass in my book.....he beat the dubs with a homer in the basket at the urinal. ....

When Cubs fans were talking about Sosa hitting a lot of home runs, they shut up when I said, "Big deal. Mike Caruso hit a home run in Wrigley Field."

I think that was half his career output.

SoxxoS
02-25-2005, 11:10 AM
When Cubs fans were talking about Sosa hitting a lot of home runs, they shut up when I said, "Big deal. Mike Caruso hit a home run in Wrigley Field."

I think that was half his career output.

How can anyone forget opening day at Texas in 1999...

I was so excited...it was opening day, and we had a completely different team. I was REALLY excited to see the highly touted Caruso play SS. First pitch of game, hit to Caruso. Booted. That is when I did my best:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2003/07/26/hall_uecker_ap/t1_uecker_ap.jpg

Impression, when he looked into the window after Willie Mays Hayes got picked off.

charlotteknights
02-25-2005, 01:35 PM
having watched the triple A team for Chicago ever since they have come to Charlotte, I have to say that the White Sox themselves have been the bust on alot of the players. Miles a bust? Made the all star team while in Charlotte, hitting over 300, double A player of the year before, and we trade him to the Rockies where he hit over 300 for them. Daryl Boston? White Sox have him as a minor league rover, teaching their farm teams......won't say any more on that. Wells and Fogg leave the Sox and have both been pretty succesful. You're going to see the same thing with Majewski this coming year. Once he settles down he'll be okay. Just so you know, even though I agree that he was a huge bust, Dalero didn't want to be a pitcher. White Sox p.c. Kirk Champion insisted that they try and pitch him because of his weak bat. Alot goes on at this level that gets twisted and misreported. I think that, unless the White Sox mess it up, they have great potential coming up. Kenny Williams, in my opinion, is one of the biggest bust that they've had. I think Ozzie will have greater input than past managers, but Williams and his crone Dave Wilder can turn things up in a hurry.

Randar68
02-25-2005, 02:54 PM
having watched the triple A team for Chicago ever since they have come to Charlotte, I have to say that the White Sox themselves have been the bust on alot of the players. Miles a bust? Made the all star team while in Charlotte, hitting over 300, double A player of the year before, and we trade him to the Rockies where he hit over 300 for them. Daryl Boston? White Sox have him as a minor league rover, teaching their farm teams......won't say any more on that. Wells and Fogg leave the Sox and have both been pretty succesful. You're going to see the same thing with Majewski this coming year. Once he settles down he'll be okay. Just so you know, even though I agree that he was a huge bust, Dalero didn't want to be a pitcher. White Sox p.c. Kirk Champion insisted that they try and pitch him because of his weak bat. Alot goes on at this level that gets twisted and misreported. I think that, unless the White Sox mess it up, they have great potential coming up. Kenny Williams, in my opinion, is one of the biggest bust that they've had. I think Ozzie will have greater input than past managers, but Williams and his crone Dave Wilder can turn things up in a hurry.

I think there are some terrifically unfair remarks in this post.

Wells, Fogg, Dallero, Miles? That's the basis for the Sox being failures?

It's understandable that the Charlotte people are unhappy with the way Williams goes about his business. He's clearly less concerned about the Knight's well-being. Trading so many high-level prospects, concerned more about his MLB roster, and using Birmingham as the launching pad for so many of their prospects...

However, if you talk to the people in Birmingham or Winston-Salem, I think you'll find the polar-opposite viewpoint from my experience.

maurice
02-25-2005, 03:46 PM
Wells is a pretty good ptcher, but Fogg blows, and Majewski has been passed around more than Ryan Sandberg's wife. And then there's Aaron Miles. . . .

:iverson
Aaron Miles. Are we really talking about Aaron Miles? Come on man -- Aaron Miles?!?

It's hard to cry over the loss of a fellow with a career 700 OPS, little defense, little speed, and little power. Miles hit .293 in 2004, but he had a .329 OBP and only a .368 SLG while playing his home games in Coors Field. Miles' road numbers were .277 / .301 / .348. (Just for the sake of comparison, Juan Uribe was .283 / .327 / .506 with outstanding defense at three IF positions.) The Rockies were so pleased with Miles' performance, that they demoted him to AAA mid-season, where he continued to post a decent average, but still failed to show power or the ability to take a walk. While you'd generally expect a rookie to improve, Miles is a 28-year-old career minor leaguer with very limited tools.

charlotteknights
02-25-2005, 06:04 PM
I know that you all think that all we do is whine down here in Charlotte, but the fact is that since Kenny Williams has taken over, Charlotte is lucky to have a team that can play 500 ball. And don't give me the stuff that it's all about the majors and not the minors. If that were so, then why did they have such a time finding a 5th starter last year? Because they all sucked down here. Even a bad Fogg would have been better than the crap we had in that spot last year. Look, I'm a huge White Sox fan and want us to go the whole way this year. I just think that if you look at other teams minors, Columbus, Pawtucket, their triple A teams are stacked. I know because they usually beat the hell out of us. I think it's great using Birmingham as a launching pad but when they take these guys up too early and they crash and burn, they send them to us, wasted. That's why we're all so happy that Cotts has made it. Then there's Dave Wilder, Kenny's top man from Stanford. He sends such crap here that it's impossible for the coaches to do anything with them. We'll see this year what happens. A new set of coaches who probably aren't burned out by Wilder's games. Very few teams that he was with has anything nice to say about him, but hey, we'll take him. Just like the Jeff Judan fiasco and the Jose Canseco fiasco. I wish all the guys in Spring training good luck and hope that they do so well that they won't need any of our guys down here.

munchman33
02-26-2005, 02:26 AM
I know that you all think that all we do is whine down here in Charlotte, but the fact is that since Kenny Williams has taken over, Charlotte is lucky to have a team that can play 500 ball. And don't give me the stuff that it's all about the majors and not the minors. If that were so, then why did they have such a time finding a 5th starter last year? Because they all sucked down here. Even a bad Fogg would have been better than the crap we had in that spot last year. Look, I'm a huge White Sox fan and want us to go the whole way this year. I just think that if you look at other teams minors, Columbus, Pawtucket, their triple A teams are stacked. I know because they usually beat the hell out of us. I think it's great using Birmingham as a launching pad but when they take these guys up too early and they crash and burn, they send them to us, wasted. That's why we're all so happy that Cotts has made it. Then there's Dave Wilder, Kenny's top man from Stanford. He sends such crap here that it's impossible for the coaches to do anything with them. We'll see this year what happens. A new set of coaches who probably aren't burned out by Wilder's games. Very few teams that he was with has anything nice to say about him, but hey, we'll take him. Just like the Jeff Judan fiasco and the Jose Canseco fiasco. I wish all the guys in Spring training good luck and hope that they do so well that they won't need any of our guys down here.

You'll feel a lot different once B-Mac and Honel are in the Charlotte rotation.

Randar68
02-26-2005, 08:35 PM
You'll feel a lot different once B-Mac and Honel are in the Charlotte rotation.

And if they aren't, or are only there a short while, everyone will complain and cry about Williams. Welcome the world of mid-market teams trying to compete...

It sucks for their AAA team, and I've been there and seen it in person. What you're saying is basically the bitter attitude everyone I've talked to in Charlotte has had. However, I don't find, from the MLB level, anything wrong with what KW has done in relation to AAA. It's not pretty at times and you wind up with quite a few journeymen and roster-fillers.

No, Charlotte basically had only a guy or 2 in the bullpen some night, and that sucks, don't get me wrong. What do you want KW to do? Sit around on his hands and wait for all the mediocre-at-best prospects you mentioned do squat and never benefit the MLB club?

Like I said, if you ask Birmingham, W-S, or Bristol if they are impressed with the way KW brings talent through there, I doubt you'll find too many complaints.

Your complaints are valid, but inferring that KW is a bad GM because he hasn't catered to the AAA team is naive at best...

charlotteknights
02-27-2005, 04:13 PM
Maybe Bristol, Winston, and Birmingham don't have any complaints about williams; by the time the talent gets to Charlotte it's either been traded away or called up prematurely. Some, I do agree do make it to the bigs from there. However, that does not erase the fact that when Williams took over in Chicago they were Central Division Champions. I can't recall them winning since he's been there. Maybe I missed it. So if the talent is so good in Birmingham, why doesn't it translate to the majors? It sure isn't coming here. I understand completely the pecking order with the farm teams and agree that there is great talent in Birmingham. It just infuriates us Charlotteans when he brags about how deep his farm team is. Sure, it will be great if BMac comes here, but knowing Kenny, he'll go straight up to Chicago. And the most frustrating thing is when he calls up the talent and they sit for weeks, never play, then he sends them to us, disappointed and dejected. I have talked to so many of the Knights who feel so hopeless with this team. Several of them were called up just to sit and would probably not be called off the bench. Alot of this is business. It depends on their contracts as to how many times they get the call up. And most of, if not the majority of what you said is true. The minors are here to feed the majors and we are always excited when they get that call up. I just think that he should call it as it is and quit playing games with everyone. Like everything else, there are those who like Kenny and those who don't. And I'm one of the latter. But we'll see what goes on between the lines this year. Hopefully Guillen will settle things down.

SoxxoS
02-27-2005, 04:48 PM
I don't understand how AA being the "tools" league where the top prospects traditionally go is KW's fault. :?: If the said prospect tears up AA, then there is much hype about him and that puts the pressure of a callup to the Majors (especially with a mid market team with holes) that much more intense. See- Wells, Kip, Garland, Jon, Wright, Danny, Munoz, Arnie and Buerhle, Mark...etc.

California Sox
02-27-2005, 04:50 PM
I understand your frustration. And this may not be a banner year for the Knights either. (If B-Mac and Anderson start at Birmingham, there may not be one decent prospect on the Knights.) But I do believe there is some good news on the horizon. Given the two-year contract for Dye, I think there is a chance that you'll see a full year of Brian Anderson at Charlotte in 2006. It's likely Sweeney will play at least one year in Charlotte if not two, given his age. A player like Casey Rogowski figures to spend quite a bit of time there if the Sox resign Konerko. Pedro Lopez, Robert Valido and Chris Young are all either very young or very raw. Those types of players often spend at least one year at Triple A. I agree B-Mac will blow through Charlotte. I believe he'll start the season in Birmingham, make a few starts in Charlotte and be in the major league rotation by 2006 at the latest. But by that time Tyler Lumsden, Ray Liotta, Wes Whisler, Gio Gonzalez, Daniel Haigwood, and Ryan Rodriguez figure to be knocking on the door of Triple A. KW can't trade all of them. Can he?

WoogSox
02-27-2005, 06:22 PM
Don know if this counts as a bust but More of a let down is Jason Bere. I used to love to watch him pitch, then the injuries and what not. Just disappointed with the way things turned out with him.

Randar68
02-28-2005, 12:36 PM
Maybe Bristol, Winston, and Birmingham don't have any complaints about williams; by the time the talent gets to Charlotte it's either been traded away or called up prematurely. Some, I do agree do make it to the bigs from there. However, that does not erase the fact that when Williams took over in Chicago they were Central Division Champions. I can't recall them winning since he's been there.

I really don't know how many times we have to rehash this., it's such a Red Herring, where do I begin... Williams took over a team without a starting rotation. Did it win the previous season? Yes. Did it have Charles Johnson (key down the stretch), Eldred, Sirotka, Baldwin (never healthy since), and Parque returning? Barcelo blew his arm up again and again, and Foulke/Howry/Buehrle was all he was left with after turning Sirotka into a failed year of David Wells. He inherited a team with one good starter (totally unproven at that time), and 2 young head-cases who have failed to develop into anything more than mediocre MLB starters (Kip Wells and Jon Garland). Several of those players had career years. Jose, Durham, and Frank all had their best year out of the last 5 or 6 in that one season and Singleton is out of baseball. WHAT IN THE HELL DID HE REALLY INHERIT?

Answer: Not much.


Maybe I missed it. So if the talent is so good in Birmingham, why doesn't it translate to the majors? It sure isn't coming here. I understand completely the pecking order with the farm teams and agree that there is great talent in Birmingham. It just infuriates us Charlotteans when he brags about how deep his farm team is. Sure, it will be great if BMac comes here, but knowing Kenny, he'll go straight up to Chicago. And the most frustrating thing is when he calls up the talent and they sit for weeks, never play, then he sends them to us, disappointed and dejected. I have talked to so many of the Knights who feel so hopeless with this team. Several of them were called up just to sit and would probably not be called off the bench. Alot of this is business. It depends on their contracts as to how many times they get the call up. And most of, if not the majority of what you said is true. The minors are here to feed the majors and we are always excited when they get that call up. I just think that he should call it as it is and quit playing games with everyone. Like everything else, there are those who like Kenny and those who don't. And I'm one of the latter. But we'll see what goes on between the lines this year. Hopefully Guillen will settle things down.

Look, I understand why Charlotte is pissed. Ron Schueler drafted crappy players and lived off Larry Himes for years, while Ron's draftees were very often AAAA players who got to Charlotte and stalled, leaving veteran, experienced, winning teams in Charlotte. That is obviously not the way Ken Williams does things, and it's obvious to anyone that it pisses the Charlotte people off.

Meanwhile, Ken Williams will have 5 players in the Baseball America top 100 and has remade the ball club with 5 veteran startes now in place for the first time in his tenure.

The only thing that stops the cycle is having a veteran experienced team that stays healthy. Then there is no need to rush prospects. With a 70 million dollar payroll, that's almost impossible. I really don't know what you expect. You want to go back to Ron Schueler? I sure as hell don't.

Randar68
02-28-2005, 12:42 PM
Don know if this counts as a bust but More of a let down is Jason Bere. I used to love to watch him pitch, then the injuries and what not. Just disappointed with the way things turned out with him.

That was just an injury. He was great in his short time prior to that... The next Rocket...

maurice
02-28-2005, 05:27 PM
It's true that Charlotte has seen few of the Sox recent quality prospects, but there's no need to overstate the case. It's not unusual for top prospects to skip AAA. (Lack of AAA ABs never seemed to bother Frank Thomas, et al.) Besides, it's not like Charlotte is completely bereft of any talented or productive players. (For example, Diaz kicked ass at AAA in 2004.) If you keep your fingers crossed, you'll get to see plenty of Anderson and McCarthy by the end of this year.

SoxxoS
02-28-2005, 05:30 PM
If you keep your fingers crossed, you'll get to see plenty of Anderson and McCarthy by the end of this year.

No, KW has a personal vendetta against Charlotte.

TDog
03-01-2005, 11:52 AM
... (Lack of AAA ABs never seemed to bother Frank Thomas, et al.) ...

Lack of AA at bats didn't hurt Frank Thomas either. He walked a lot in Birmingham.

Medford Bobby
03-08-2005, 11:46 PM
:?: Who pitched 2 No-Hitters in the minors?? was it Bruce Tanner or Tom Drees........?:o:

StillMissOzzie
03-09-2005, 12:15 AM
:?: Who pitched 2 No-Hitters in the minors?? was it Bruce Tanner or Tom Drees........?:o:

That was Tom Drees, but if Bruce Tanner got any I have no idea.

SMO
:gulp:

Brian26
03-11-2005, 12:07 PM
That was Tom Drees, but if Bruce Tanner got any I have no idea.

SMO
:gulp:

Just read that Bruce Tanner is a coach on the Pirates now.

Stroker Ace
03-12-2005, 10:50 PM
is this a list of busts? I hope not. The only guys on the list who could still be busts are olivo and miles.

Rowand needs to show me more than one year, but hes still wont be considered a bust if he reverts to his early major league career

Biggest busts have to include
the great borchardi
jeff abbott
rauch
ruffcorn
Crede is starting to look like a bust too

Rowand?:?:

Stroker Ace
03-12-2005, 10:51 PM
I say Borchard and Rauch

Iguchi_4_MVP
03-22-2005, 08:06 PM
The entire first round draft class of 1997.
1. Jason Dellaero, No. 15 overall
1. Kyle Kane, No. 33 (for losing Alex Fernandez via free agency)
1. Brett Caradonna, no. 34 (for losing Kevin Tapani via FA)
1. Aaron Myette, no. 43 (for losing Alex Fernandez)
1. Jim Parque, no. 46 (for losing Fernandez)
1. Rocky Biddle, no. 51 (for failure to sign 1996 first rounder Bobby Seay)

I really don't care about 2000 boys. Parque and Biddle helped for a very, very brief time and were NOT stellar. We're talking BUSTS, so as first round picks they were just that. Just cuz Stacey King won a few rings doesn't mean he wasn't a bust (if you need some perspective).

The Cubs drafted Garland No. 1 in 1997 as well...but as the No. 10 overall pick in the draft that year...and for all the hype we heard when Karchner went North...he belongs on this list too.

Also in 1997....
round 2. Jeff Weaver, no. 62 (for losing Tapani)
((Say what you want, but I wish he had come aboard instead of Parque))
2. No. 67 gone to Cleveland for Albert Belle.

Just for fun...
round 3. J.R. Mounts
round 4. Curtis Whitley
round 5. Pat Danaker.

SoxxoS
03-22-2005, 10:28 PM
Thanks for recaping...I now realize that is the worst draft class of all time.

rmusacch
03-22-2005, 10:54 PM
According to bb-ref.com, he was traded by the Marlins to the Sox in early December of 2000 for Jeff Abbott.

And unfortunately he was our starting CF on opening day the next year.

AJPosguchi
03-22-2005, 11:02 PM
How about Michael Jordan? Saw him play a few times in Brimingham a few times, it was not pretty.

A. Cavatica
03-22-2005, 11:22 PM
The entire first round draft class of 1997.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Six first/sandwich round choices and they all flame out. One legitimate talent (Weaver) who doesn't sign. No steals in the lower rounds at all.

We've had even worse drafts (see: 1995) but never have we squandered so many high picks.

We drafted Dellaero at 15. #16? Lance Berkman.

Randar68
03-23-2005, 10:50 AM
We drafted Dellaero at 15.

Don't get me started on that classic Ron Scheuler move...

SOXSINCE'70
03-25-2005, 12:02 PM
Rod Bolton and Jason Dellearo have to make this list........

So,too, does Scott Ruffcorn.

SoxxoS
03-29-2005, 01:08 PM
You know who just came across my mind? Chris Snopek.

I thought he was going to be solid...