PDA

View Full Version : Boston on the SS market


maurice
09-13-2004, 06:02 PM
Linky (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1880521)

The free agent shortstop pool includes Edgar Renteria (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5602), Nomar, Orlando Cabrera (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5900), Jose Valentin (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4948), Omar Vizquel (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4306), Pokey Reese (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5746) and likely Julio Lugo (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6451) and Cristian Guzman (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6186). Those potentially in the market include the Cardinals (if they don't sign Renteria), White Sox, Cubs (depending on Garciaparra), Giants, Diamondbacks, Red Sox (depending on Cabrera and/or Reese), Rangers and the Washington Lobbyists. "It's an interesting market," one GM said. "But where last year you had Miguel Tejada (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5888) being bid on by the Orioles, Tigers and Mariners, there are enough market options that it's unlikely any of those shortstops will get Tejada money."
Renteria for less than "Tejada money" (IIRC, $12 mil / year)? :gulp:

(This entire thread should be in deep pink.)

nodiggity59
09-13-2004, 06:11 PM
Honestly, and I've thought about this, I like Vizquel at 2 years $6mil total. I really like what he could do in the #2 spot with bunting and contact hitting. If Rowand can maintain a .290 avg or better in the leadoff and Vizquel hits .280, we would have a solid 1-2 for the first time since Raines-Cora (I believe). This would make the ensuing Lee-Thomas-Konerko-Everret much better IMO for a reasonable cost.

In terms of contracts around 10mil a year or more for the long term, I'd much rather see the Sox invest in a pitcher for 3-4 years than Renteria for 5.

Jjav829
09-13-2004, 06:19 PM
Linky (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1880521)


Renteria for less than "Tejada money" (IIRC, $12 mil / year)? :gulp:

(This entire thread should be in deep pink.)
No way in hell Renteria should get Tejada money. Don't get me wrong, I like Renteria and I would like to see him on this team, but he's having a real down year this year. It's looking more and more like 2003 was a fluke for him. Other than Renteria, none of those names really excites me. Nomar is likely to get overpaid and I don't think he's worth it. JoseK is hopefully gone. Pokey Reese? Eh. Cabrera would be a decent cheap option but is he better than Uribe for a full season? Maybe, maybe not. Guzman would give us a different type of player, but once again, is he better than Uribe? Same for Lugo. I'd say the best option there if we're playing for next year, which I'm assuming is KW's plan, is Vizquel. Other than that, the Konerko for a SS option is intriguing, but for who? Would Atlanta actually consider a Konerko for Furcal swap? I don't know, maybe with his recent troubles they might want to get rid of him. But that said, part of the reason they've been so good this year is that 1-2 combination of Furcal and Giles. Tough call for KW this offseason. Then again, he has plenty of tough calls coming up.

bigfoot
09-13-2004, 07:57 PM
Linky (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1880521)


Renteria for less than "Tejada money" (IIRC, $12 mil / year)? :gulp:

(This entire thread should be in deep pink.)
[This could be another thread, feel free mods to move it]

If all these teams are going after SSs, and the Sox can be comfortable with Uribe, wouldn't an obvious pos to expend $ be 3B? If there aren't that many monied suitors for Beltre, isn't he worth a shot, Scott Boras or not? Is there just no use pursuing anyone that Boras represents, at any price?

maurice
09-13-2004, 08:24 PM
2003 was definitely a career year for Renteria, but (if he's actually 29 years old) there's no reason he can't give you something around his career numbers (.289 / .346 / .400) + gold glove D + pretty good speed. He's no A-Rod, but that's pretty damn respectable (particularly compared to the sub-.300 OBP we're used to). Tejada -- with much more power / RBI, less speed, and no GGs -- got $12 mil per in a depressed market. What do you think is a reasonable figure for Renteria?

I wanted Viquel instead of Valentin this year, but his age and health are concerns (he failed a physical last offseason). OTOH, KW sure loves old, former Cleveland players, and I suppose a cheapo 2-year deal couldn't hurt (if a better, younger player is unavailable).

3B also would be a great position to upgrade, but I'm not sure if any of the available players are a good fit. Beltre is having a classic contract year surge, and Glaus has injury issues.

Win1ForMe
09-13-2004, 08:26 PM
2003 was definitely a career year for Renteria, but (if he's actually 29 years old) there's no reason he can't give you something around his career numbers (.289 / .346 / .400) + gold glove D + pretty good speed. He's no A-Rod, but that's pretty damn respectable (particularly compared to the sub-.300 OBP we're used to). Tejada -- with much more power / RBI, less speed, and no GGs -- got $12 mil per in a depressed market. What do you think is a reasonable figure for Renteria?
I see him getting $8 million, but I wouldn't even pay him that, not for those career numbers.

Wealz
09-13-2004, 08:31 PM
2003 was definitely a career year for Renteria, but (if he's actually 29 years old) there's no reason he can't give you something around his career numbers (.289 / .346 / .400) + gold glove D + pretty good speed. He's no A-Rod, but that's pretty damn respectable (particularly compared to the sub-.300 OBP we're used to). Tejada -- with much more power / RBI, less speed, and no GGs -- got $12 mil per in a depressed market. What do you think is a reasonable figure for Renteria?
Those are pedestrian numbers. Valentin @ $5M was/is a better option than Renteria @ $8-9M per.

Jjav829
09-13-2004, 08:44 PM
Those are pedestrian numbers. Valentin @ $5M was/is a better option than Renteria @ $8-9M per.
If Renteria's numbers are pedestrian, then what are Valentin's? Besides worthy of being a bench player? This guy has been awful this year. And he's no longer young. He's going to be 35 next year and his numbers have been in steady decline since the 2000 season when he joined us. What makes you think he's worth $5-6 million?

WSox8404
09-14-2004, 12:51 AM
Those are pedestrian numbers. Valentin @ $5M was/is a better option than Renteria @ $8-9M per.
Jose, is that you posting on WSI? Sure sounds like it.

HomeFish
09-14-2004, 12:57 AM
You assume that any of these FAs would want to play for us. I don't think that's likely.

balboner
09-14-2004, 01:01 AM
What I don't get is why dont the Sox make Uribe the everyday SS, and then try to get an upgrade at either 2b or 3b. Uribe plays very good defense, and is a very talented hitter who likely will continue to improve. It will be a travesty if Uribe is not starting on the Sox next year, but either Willie and/or Crede are starting.

balke
09-14-2004, 01:11 AM
What I don't get is why dont the Sox make Uribe the everyday SS, and then try to get an upgrade at either 2b or 3b. Uribe plays very good defense, and is a very talented hitter who likely will continue to improve. It will be a travesty if Uribe is not starting on the Sox next year, but either Willie and/or Crede are starting.
I'm sure it'll be one or the other. But Ozzie talking to the media about needing a leader at Short makes me think the sox might go for somebody big/semi-big there for next season. Uribe will probably never be considered, even though he deserves a shot at least.

batmanZoSo
09-14-2004, 11:33 AM
If you ask me Uribe can be the starting shorstop or second baseman, it doesn't matter. I don't know what makes shortstop some kind of mystical, leader position on the field, all we need is someone good to go along with Uribe. More importantly, I think we need the guy we get to be a leadoff hitter, that way Rowand bats second in front of Frank. Rowand has too much power to be leading off and on top of that he doesn't walk. He's an ideal two hitter if he keeps hitting like this.

I think Renteria's worth 8 million, but when we have so many holes to fill in one offseason, we're much better off getting a shortstop or second baseman without upgrading what we're currently paying our MI combo.

SEALgep
09-14-2004, 11:51 AM
I think adding a Vizquel and putting Uribe at second for next year would make us pretty strong up the middle.

batmanZoSo
09-14-2004, 11:54 AM
I think adding a Vizquel and putting Uribe at second for next year would make us pretty strong up the middle.
If Vizquel still has two good inury-free years left he'd be a great addition. And it would take away the Tribe's lone veteran presence. Don't forget we have to contend with them next year as well as the Twins.

Wealz
09-14-2004, 12:59 PM
If Renteria's numbers are pedestrian, then what are Valentin's? Besides worthy of being a bench player? This guy has been awful this year. And he's no longer young. He's going to be 35 next year and his numbers have been in steady decline since the 2000 season when he joined us. What makes you think he's worth $5-6 million?
If a choice had to be made between giving Valentin $5M or Renteria $40-$45M, I'd choose Valentin. Renteria's OPS v. righties this year is .647, Valentin's .823.

Yorke97
09-14-2004, 01:12 PM
I'd take valentin for one year at $1-$2 mil tops. He makes a really good replacement behind Uribe and a very serviceable Pinch Hitter. Give him a year and don't waste money on a bad FA market.

nitetrain8601
09-14-2004, 01:51 PM
Excuse me, but when did all of a sudden, a .286avg, 10HR, 65RBI's, and 15SB's become piss poor. That's tons better than Valentin and Uribe. Renteria is a consistent hitter. Uribe is a streaky one. Plus he's not a leader. What Ozzie means is he needs someone who knows whats going on all the time and who could direct the field and knows what he's doing. While Uribe has a strong arm, at times, he doesn't even know how many outs there are. I would definately take Renteria at 8-9 mil. He'd be perfect at the #2 spot.

I swear, some posters are spoiled as hell. You guys basically want A-Rod or nobody. Well too damn bad, he isn't coming here.

Wealz
09-14-2004, 01:58 PM
Excuse me, but when did all of a sudden, a .286avg, 10HR, 65RBI's, and 15SB's become piss poor. That's tons better than Valentin and Uribe. Renteria is a consistent hitter. Uribe is a streaky one. Plus he's not a leader. What Ozzie means is he needs someone who knows whats going on all the time and who could direct the field and knows what he's doing. While Uribe has a strong arm, at times, he doesn't even know how many outs there are. I would definately take Renteria at 8-9 mil. He'd be perfect at the #2 spot.

I swear, some posters are spoiled as hell. You guys basically want A-Rod or nobody. Well too damn bad, he isn't coming here.
It'd be insane for this team to sign Renteria for the dollars he's likely to command. He's an okay player, but nowhere near the differencemaker his salary says he'll have to be.

Flight #24
09-14-2004, 02:14 PM
Excuse me, but when did all of a sudden, a .286avg, 10HR, 65RBI's, and 15SB's become piss poor. That's tons better than Valentin and Uribe. Renteria is a consistent hitter. Uribe is a streaky one. Plus he's not a leader. What Ozzie means is he needs someone who knows whats going on all the time and who could direct the field and knows what he's doing. While Uribe has a strong arm, at times, he doesn't even know how many outs there are. I would definately take Renteria at 8-9 mil. He'd be perfect at the #2 spot.

I swear, some posters are spoiled as hell. You guys basically want A-Rod or nobody. Well too damn bad, he isn't coming here.
For all of Valentin's flaws, he's still maintained a solid OPS (.747 as compared to Renteria's .727), built primarily on a pretty good SLG of .464. He's also got 7SB/4CS as compared to 15SB/9CS for Edgar. He's also a better defensive SS than Renteria. He makes more errors, but he gets to a lot more balls, a tradeoff I'll take any day of the week.

This is not meant to say that I'd rather have Jose than Edgar, just that the differential in performance is NOT as great as it's being made out to be. It's a tradeoff of OBP for SLG. Since the Sox are a bit unbalanced with a shortage of OBP guys, that tradeoff can work for the team. But factoring in Edgar's likely 8+mil salary and long-term contract against Jose's likely $3-4mil and short-term contract makes it at worst even to keep Jose and at best an advantage to the team(depending on what you do with the 4-5mil).

$4-5mil buys you a solid #3 or 4 starter, or possibly 2 solid relievers. If the salary differential between Jose & Edgar is indeed 4-5mil, I'd rather keep Jose, bat him #7, and go get the pitching help than blow our $$$ on a player that's not a marked improvement and ensures that we continue to have some holes in other key areas.

wdelaney72
09-14-2004, 02:32 PM
No Jose Valentin on this team next year - at any price.

I don't mind keeping Uribe at SS and upgrading 2B. Crede will still be on this team next year - like it or not, so I don't see a change at 3B happening.

I'm not thrilled abuot Uribe as an everyday player, but I realize we have a limited budget and we can't fix all of our problems in one offseason. That said, I'll take Uribe as a position starter, as long as Willie and Jose are not his counterpart.

maurice
09-14-2004, 03:34 PM
My initial post assumes that KW will keep his promise to acquire a good SP and a good RP this offseason, and that Uribe will start at either 2B or 3B next year. I realize that leaves no money to pay Renteria, which is why I made the "deep pink" comment. There is a very good chance that the we'll have Harris, Uribe, and Crede all starting in 2005.

I appreciate the opinion of the SABR community that Valentin is a good defensive SS, but I expect him to win a few Gold Gloves before anybody definitively claims that he's better than Renteria defensively. Obviously, Valentin has more power, but Renteria's decided advantage in OBP more than makes up for it, particularly given our extreme need for top-or-the-order hitters.

An upgrade at 2B or 3B would be a fine alternative, but who will give you more value than Renteria for less money?

Wealz
09-14-2004, 03:52 PM
An upgrade at 2B or 3B would be a fine alternative, but who will give you more value than Renteria for less money?
Renteria's contract is very likely to be an albatross for whoever signs him.