PDA

View Full Version : Top 5 AL Rally Killers - Guess who?


FoulkeFan
09-09-2004, 09:00 AM
Top 5 AL Rally-Killers, by Double Plays Above Average (NETDP)

Player, Team, NETDP

Toby Hall, TBA, 11.66
Torii Hunter, MIN, 10.24
Matt Lawton, CLE, 9.76
Damian Miller, OAK, 9.65
Paul Konerko, CHA, 8.75

This is from Baseball Prospectus. FYI - no one else on the Sox even comes close to Paulie's #5 spot.

Frater Perdurabo
09-09-2004, 09:15 AM
This tells me we need to sign/trade for Hunter and Lawton

JB98
09-09-2004, 10:45 AM
Top 5 AL Rally-Killers, by Double Plays Above Average (NETDP)

Player, Team, NETDP

Toby Hall, TBA, 11.66
Torii Hunter, MIN, 10.24
Matt Lawton, CLE, 9.76
Damian Miller, OAK, 9.65
Paul Konerko, CHA, 8.75

This is from Baseball Prospectus. FYI - no one else on the Sox even comes close to Paulie's #5 spot.
In fairness to Paulie, he has a helluva lot more RBIs than the others on this list. He's killed some rallies, but he's also come through quite a bit. I'd have to say Crede and Valentin are the two biggest rally-killers on the Sox, due to strikeouts and lack of situational hitting.

RichFitztightly
09-09-2004, 11:27 AM
I'd have to say Crede and Valentin are the two biggest rally-killers on the Sox, due to strikeouts and lack of situational hitting.
Eh, my money's on Borchard. Though he hasn't had a full year to completely suck yet.

HITMEN OF 77
09-09-2004, 11:52 AM
Top 5 AL Rally-Killers, by Double Plays Above Average (NETDP)

Player, Team, NETDP

Toby Hall, TBA, 11.66
Torii Hunter, MIN, 10.24
Matt Lawton, CLE, 9.76
Damian Miller, OAK, 9.65
Paul Konerko, CHA, 8.75

This is from Baseball Prospectus. FYI - no one else on the Sox even comes close to Paulie's #5 spot.
And yet he's still batting around .275 35HR 90 some rbi. I think his plus sides are far greater for this team than the down side. Why do we keep coming back to Paulie in all the threads? Leave the guy alone.

balke
09-09-2004, 12:23 PM
And yet he's still batting around .275 35HR 90 some rbi. I think his plus sides are far greater for this team than the down side. Why do we keep coming back to Paulie in all the threads? Leave the guy alone.
HAHAHA hunter sucks, go after him. He has speed, and still has more DP's than Paulie. ha!

thepaulbowski
09-09-2004, 12:57 PM
Top 5 AL Rally-Killers, by Double Plays Above Average (NETDP)

Player, Team, NETDP

Toby Hall, TBA, 11.66
Torii Hunter, MIN, 10.24
Matt Lawton, CLE, 9.76
Damian Miller, OAK, 9.65
Paul Konerko, CHA, 8.75

This is from Baseball Prospectus. FYI - no one else on the Sox even comes close to Paulie's #5 spot.
I bet the amount of DP's Hunter hits into would go down if he didn't play in the Baggy Dome. The turf speeds the ball up & with his speed on grass.....

PorkChopExpress
09-09-2004, 01:11 PM
with his speed on grass.....
Tori Hunter on speed and grass might make him more interesting to watch. That being said, let's not defend the enemey.

Hondo
09-09-2004, 02:24 PM
And yet he's still batting around .275 35HR 90 some rbi. I think his plus sides are far greater for this team than the down side. Why do we keep coming back to Paulie in all the threads? Leave the guy alone.
Like Hawk says, don't tell me what you hit but WHEN you hit it. Sure Paulie is putting up monster stats but he's not a clutch hitter

balke
09-09-2004, 03:02 PM
Like Hawk says, don't tell me what you hit but WHEN you hit it. Sure Paulie is putting up monster stats but he's not a clutch hitter
Clutch smutch. how many times has Pauly continued a rally with a double? or been the guy who brings the team within one. SOmeone with his kinds of #'s are helping the team win, period. Just cause he doesn't hit with 2 men on when we are down by one, doesn't mean he doesn't score runs, or help the sox win. 30 less AB's then Clee, 10 more RBI's, leads the team in Total bases. 3rd in runs scored. Bringing people home means you helped this team win.

Overall Rowand was better than both of them this year, but they were all relatively just as important to this team. They are all the reason we still score runs, without Frank or Maggs in our lineup. Pauly with power, Clee with consistency, Ar-row with his ability to put himself in scoring position. These 3 guys lead in just about every category (excluding limited time players like gload and Burke, and injured for season players). So if you say Pauly sucks, might as well say C-lee and Rowand suck as well. then I'll shoot you.

Hondo
09-09-2004, 03:19 PM
Clutch smutch. how many times has Pauly continued a rally with a double? or been the guy who brings the team within one. SOmeone with his kinds of #'s are helping the team win, period. Just cause he doesn't hit with 2 men on when we are down by one, doesn't mean he doesn't score runs, or help the sox win. 30 less AB's then Clee, 10 more RBI's, leads the team in Total bases. 3rd in runs scored. Bringing people home means you helped this team win.

Overall Rowand was better than both of them this year, but they were all relatively just as important to this team. They are all the reason we still score runs, without Frank or Maggs in our lineup. Pauly with power, Clee with consistency, Ar-row with his ability to put himself in scoring position. These 3 guys lead in just about every category (excluding limited time players like gload and Burke, and injured for season players). So if you say Pauly sucks, might as well say C-lee and Rowand suck as well. then I'll shoot you.
So...we're you going to tell me how many times Paulie has continued a rally with doubles or was that a rhetorical question?
And I was talking about Paulie, you can't just lump in Lee and Rowand.
In my opinion, Paulie is not a clutch player and I would rather have an upgrade at two or more positions and lose Paulie than have Paulie playing first base next year.
If I say Paulie sucks, you'll shoot me?? Nice.

FWIW - Lee's Runs Created is 11 points higher than Konerko

balke
09-09-2004, 03:32 PM
If I say Paulie sucks, you'll shoot me?? Nice.

FWIW - Lee's Runs Created is 11 points higher than Konerko
No, Idle threat. And I was saying, if you say Lee and ROwand suck I'll do that.

Lee still has 30 more at bats, for those 11 points. They are near equals, Lee has more speed.

I personally don't care if we trade Paulie, I don't like people claiming he sucks. He's not a cancer to this team in anyway, he's just the most valuable piece of trade bait we have. Chicks dig the long ball.

Hangar18
09-09-2004, 03:47 PM
In fairness to Paulie, he has a helluva lot more RBIs than the others on this list. He's killed some rallies, but he's also come through quite a bit. I'd have to say Crede and Valentin are the two biggest rally-killers on the Sox, due to strikeouts and lack of situational hitting.

BINGO!!!!!!! Paulie has come thru many many times ............ so he gets a pass, JOE CREDE GETS THIS AWARD really. How many times during the SOX vs Evil Corporation at the urinal, did Crede just plain STINK?
All Season ......... hes been just completely BRUTAL. Ive said it, You can have a crede in the lineup, but then we cant have a Valentin/Timo/Uribe in the lineup either. for a long stretch ......... they were 3 auto outs

HITMEN OF 77
09-09-2004, 04:08 PM
BINGO!!!!!!! Paulie has come thru many many times ............ so he gets a pass, JOE CREDE GETS THIS AWARD really. How many times during the SOX vs Evil Corporation at the urinal, did Crede just plain STINK?
All Season ......... hes been just completely BRUTAL. Ive said it, You can have a crede in the lineup, but then we cant have a Valentin/Timo/Uribe in the lineup either. for a long stretch ......... they were 3 auto outs
EXACTLY. Thanks Hangar!

jenmcm76
09-09-2004, 05:19 PM
The only reason Paulie is such a rally-killer is because he's so damn slow!
If Konerko could run faster than 5 mph, he'd have a lot less GIDPs and a lot more FCs.
For comparison, I'd be curious to see how many fielder's choices over average quicker guys like Willie or Rowand has grounded into.

maurice
09-09-2004, 06:16 PM
how many times has Pauly continued a rally with a double?
Way less often than he has GiDP, mainly because he's really really slow. A fielder's choice for Lee is a GiDP for Konerko. A 2B for Rowand is a 1B for Konerko. He's pretty much a one-dimensional player . . . that dimension being that he hits HR at the Cell. There's value in that, but Lee and Rowand are better all-around players.

HITMEN OF 77
09-09-2004, 06:46 PM
Way less often than he has GiDP, mainly because he's really really slow. A fielder's choice for Lee is a GiDP for Konerko. A 2B for Rowand is a 1B for Konerko. He's pretty much a one-dimensional player . . . that dimension being that he hits HR at the Cell. There's value in that, but Lee and Rowand are better all-around players.
Rowand and C Lee are faster and better in field maybe, but at the plate Konerko is better. I don't care what ball park his Hr's are, half the games during the season at home. At the end of the year they don't care how many you hit here and there and left or right field, they care about your season stats.

batmanZoSo
09-09-2004, 07:06 PM
In fairness to Paulie, he has a helluva lot more RBIs than the others on this list. He's killed some rallies, but he's also come through quite a bit. I'd have to say Crede and Valentin are the two biggest rally-killers on the Sox, due to strikeouts and lack of situational hitting.
Yeah as much as I badtalk Konerko, he's not even close to being the biggest problem on the team. The only thing about him is he makes a lot more than we would be wise to spend on a first baseman. He doesn't give this particular team 8 million worth of bang for the buck. To another team, he can be worth it. In a lineup with 5 or 6 real power hitters and a limited budget, it doesn't make sense to spend 8 million on a guy unless he brings something that only he can deliver or is just an awesome player. Konerko fits neither of those--he's one of many sluggers on this team (when healthy) and not nearly the best.

But I don't define rally-killer by double plays. Crede and Valentin, like you said, are the culprits.

I would take Damian Miller. He's a catcher and he hits a lot of singles and grounballs--that equals DPs. But he's batting .286 with 55 rbis. Wouldn't you love to have that production coming from the C spot? Realistically speaking, he makes about 4 mill and isn't good enough for us to go out and sign him and add 3 mill or more to our current payroll at the position. I'm not saying we get him, just arguing against DPs defining someone as a rally-killer which everyone seems to accept right now.

balke
09-09-2004, 07:38 PM
Way less often than he has GiDP, mainly because he's really really slow. A fielder's choice for Lee is a GiDP for Konerko. A 2B for Rowand is a 1B for Konerko. He's pretty much a one-dimensional player . . . that dimension being that he hits HR at the Cell. There's value in that, but Lee and Rowand are better all-around players.
All around, you're right. I won't deny that. But It's very very close in terms of production. Especially between him and Lee. But Lee is younger, and has had a wierd hitting season. Lee's more valuable overall due to consistancy and speed, and has had a better season. Pauly still doesn't suck.

This season PK has 20 GIDP as compared to 20 2Baggers and 35 HR. 20 is horrible (on both counts), but 35 is pretty good. 55 extra base hits, to 20 rally killers. He's batted in 97. He's much better than he is bad.

idseer
09-09-2004, 08:47 PM
everybody keeps saying it just that paul makes too much money.
well .... PROVE IT!

i've tried to find a complete list of player's salaries for 2004 but all i can find (other than looking up each individual player) is a top 25 list.
the 25th place player makes approx. $12.5 million. over 4 million more than paul. frankly he's worth more than a few of those on that list.

another way to look at it ...
jose makes $5 mil. and that figure was given to him based on last year. paul's a steal by comparison.

so, i'm thinking he isn't all that overpaid afterall. prove to me that he is.

maurice
09-09-2004, 09:31 PM
Off the top of my head, two guys who hit as well or better than Konerko but have smaller, fairly new contracts are David Ortiz and Jose Guillen. I agree that Valentin's contract is ridiculous.

BTW, here are the season AVE / OBP / SLG for . . .
Rowand: .317 / .371 / .559
Lee: .306 / .367 / .528
Konerko: .274 / .355 / .542

idseer
09-09-2004, 09:34 PM
Off the top of my head, two guys who hit as well or better than Konerko but have smaller, fairly new contracts are David Ortiz and Jose Guillen. I agree that Valentin's contract is ridiculous.

BTW, here are the season AVE / OBP / SLG for . . .
Rowand: .317 / .371 / .559
Lee: .306 / .367 / .528
Konerko: .274 / .355 / .542do you feel that if aaron and paul switched places in the batting order, aaron would have 100+ rbi's then?
i think ops and slg are good stats but i still believe rbi's mean something.

owensmouth
09-09-2004, 09:43 PM
Try it this way: PK is now tied for second in the American League for home runs. If the White Sox put Paulie on irrevokable waivers, would somebody grab him at 8 million a year? Now, Mannie leads the league, and he was put on irrevokable waivers. No one would touch him.

idseer
09-09-2004, 09:47 PM
Try it this way: PK is now tied for second in the American League for home runs. If the White Sox put Paulie on irrevokable waivers, would somebody grab him at 8 million a year? Now, Mannie leads the league, and he was put on irrevokable waivers. No one would touch him.wasn't manny making twice as much and for twice as long or more?
big difference.


EDIT: HELL yeah! manny is signed thru '08 (with a 2 year team option after that) in the $20 million range.

try again. :smile:

WinningUgly!
09-09-2004, 10:55 PM
Like Hawk says, don't tell me what you hit but WHEN you hit it. Sure Paulie is putting up monster stats but he's not a clutch hitter
This is like winning the lottery & bitching about the taxes. :rolleyes:

Gosox1917
09-09-2004, 11:49 PM
Hank Aaron grounded into the most DP than any other player in the history of the game...ok ok i know Paulie no Hammerin' Hank but it's an interesting fact nevertheless.

OurBitchinMinny
09-10-2004, 12:05 AM
Like Hawk says, don't tell me what you hit but WHEN you hit it. Sure Paulie is putting up monster stats but he's not a clutch hitter

hes more clutch than rowand

batmanZoSo
09-10-2004, 06:48 PM
do you feel that if aaron and paul switched places in the batting order, aaron would have 100+ rbi's then?
i think ops and slg are good stats but i still believe rbi's mean something.
He'd be close because he'd have guys on base. The only thing is he won't drive in himself nearly as often.

Rowand is a total number 2 hitter. If this Rowand bats in front of a healthy Frank, it would be a force to be reckoned with.