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RKMeibalane
09-07-2004, 11:13 PM
If there was any doubt remaining about whether Sox hitters lack a solid understanding the strike zone, that doubt should be all but erased with this fact:

Frank Thomas leads this team in walks (64), and Paul Konerko (56) is second. If that doesn't tell you that this team needs to be overhauled, I don't know what will. The Sox cannot and will not win anything until they get rid of the free-swinging idiots (Valentin, Crede, Borchard) who are currently occupying sports on the Sox twenty-five-man roster.

What is really unsettling about this entire mess is the fact that nothing will be done to correct the problem during the off-season. Williams said last winter that he wanted to bring in "grinders," players who would do whatever it took to help the team win. Now, almost a full year after Jerry Manuel cost the Sox a trip to the playoffs, many of the same problems still remain. The ridiculous tinkering with the lineup is no longer a concern, but the questions about this team's ability to excute are still being asked. Nobody wants to do the little things to win ballgames. Some of the players seem more interested in padding their own stats and making excuses than they do in trying to make the team better.

When is this going to end? I'm not sure I want to know the answer.

batmanZoSo
09-07-2004, 11:28 PM
If there was any doubt remaining about whether Sox hitters lack a solid understanding the strike zone, that doubt should be all but erased with this fact:

Frank Thomas leads this team in walks (64), and Paul Konerko (56) is second. If that doesn't tell you that this team needs to be overhauled, I don't know what will. The Sox cannot and will not win anything until they get rid of the free-swinging idiots (Valentin, Crede, Borchard) who are currently occupying sports on the Sox twenty-five-man roster.

What is really unsettling about this entire mess is the fact that nothing will be done to correct the problem during the off-season. Williams said last winter that he wanted to bring in "grinders," players who would do whatever it took to help the team win. Now, almost a full year after Jerry Manuel cost the Sox a trip to the playoffs, many of the same problems still remain. The ridiculous tinkering with the lineup is no longer a concern, but the questions about this team's ability to excute are still being asked. Nobody wants to do the little things to win ballgames. Some of the players seem more interested in padding their own stats and making excuses than they do in trying to make the team better.

When is this going to end? I'm not sure I want to know the answer.
I meant to bring up that Thomas still leads this team in walks in a previous post, but forgot. That's quite disturbing. And Konerko's mere 56 walks with a .350 obp shows you how he's not worth 8 million.

These guys are not out for stats, this is just what they are. They can't change that. But we can...and better...by getting rid of them.

Brian26
09-07-2004, 11:31 PM
A very strange stat indeed. Similar to Jimenez leading our team in steals in 2003.

Tragg
09-07-2004, 11:35 PM
If there was any doubt remaining about whether Sox hitters lack a solid understanding the strike zone, that doubt should be all but erased with this fact:

Frank Thomas leads this team in walks (64), and Paul Konerko (56) is second. If that doesn't tell you that this team needs to be overhauled, I don't know what will. The Sox cannot and will not win anything until they get rid of the free-swinging idiots (Valentin, Crede, Borchard) who are currently occupying sports on the Sox twenty-five-man roster.

What is really unsettling about this entire mess is the fact that nothing will be done to correct the problem during the off-season. Williams said last winter that he wanted to bring in "grinders," players who would do whatever it took to help the team win. Now, almost a full year after Jerry Manuel cost the Sox a trip to the playoffs, many of the same problems still remain. The ridiculous tinkering with the lineup is no longer a concern, but the questions about this team's ability to excute are still being asked. Nobody wants to do the little things to win ballgames. Some of the players seem more interested in padding their own stats and making excuses than they do in trying to make the team better.

When is this going to end? I'm not sure I want to know the answer.That's how I feel too, but many posters on here who seem to be informed suggest that Williams and Ozzie know that and want OBP players. Now I don't see any tangible evidence of that from Williams' history of trades and aquisitions (try to run a GREAT OBP man like Frank out of town; give a good obp man like durham away; actually trade for clayton, eg) or lineup cards, but we'll have to see.
Now Borchard and Crede are young players- they will either learn or they won't; I assume the coaches teach them to wait, but we'll see. But Valentin is hopeless. (and Sandy Alomar, God bless him, is the same way).
I think it would do wonders for this O, particularly since we have a real good power core in Frank, Konerko and Lee.

Parrothead
09-07-2004, 11:59 PM
Frank Thomas leads this team in walks (64), and Paul Konerko (56) is second.
Frightening !!!! :cower:

Hopefully something will be done to get a more balenced team.:thumbsup:

samram
09-08-2004, 12:19 AM
It's those damn umps, not giving the Sox the close ones. Oh wait, that's the Cubs' excuse. The Sox are just not very baseball smart and haven't been for a while.

balke
09-08-2004, 12:37 AM
Nobody wants to do the little things to win ballgames. Some of the players seem more interested in padding their own stats and making excuses than they do in trying to make the team better.


Who's padding stats? Our players stats are HORRIBLE. This team is not very good. We were with Frank and Maggs, they were the OBP guys. I'm sick of talking about the injuries... but to say this team this year didn't know how to score runs coming in... 15 10+ run games? We were insane with hitting with those 2 guys on the team. They were pretty good. :tongue:

What do you want from the rest of the scrubs? We had 4 all-star calibur players in the heart of our order (thomas maggs Konerko Clee) with a home run guy at the end (valentin) and some speedsters in the 1-2 spot (uribe, Harris, perez) Good speed in Rowand, then Joe C who had average power and hitting coming in, then Olivo cleanin up... oh man I salivate thinking of that lineup. Every game seemed to have that inning of never ending hits. We won't see run production like that again for a long long time sox fans.

Now we'll be seeing this scrapers... which is slang for low talents who appear to be trying hard. Jose's performance tonight has me fearful of our attempts to play small ball next year. Will our pitchers be able to pitch if we decide we aren't going to hit?

soxtalker
09-08-2004, 08:01 AM
I'm a bit surprised that you've put Borchard into this category. It seems like one of the areas in which he has been making significant improvements lately. He's generally working deeper into the count, and he seems to have a walk in most games in the past week or two.

gosox41
09-08-2004, 09:49 AM
If there was any doubt remaining about whether Sox hitters lack a solid understanding the strike zone, that doubt should be all but erased with this fact:

Frank Thomas leads this team in walks (64), and Paul Konerko (56) is second. If that doesn't tell you that this team needs to be overhauled, I don't know what will. The Sox cannot and will not win anything until they get rid of the free-swinging idiots (Valentin, Crede, Borchard) who are currently occupying sports on the Sox twenty-five-man roster.

What is really unsettling about this entire mess is the fact that nothing will be done to correct the problem during the off-season. Williams said last winter that he wanted to bring in "grinders," players who would do whatever it took to help the team win. Now, almost a full year after Jerry Manuel cost the Sox a trip to the playoffs, many of the same problems still remain. The ridiculous tinkering with the lineup is no longer a concern, but the questions about this team's ability to excute are still being asked. Nobody wants to do the little things to win ballgames. Some of the players seem more interested in padding their own stats and making excuses than they do in trying to make the team better.

When is this going to end? I'm not sure I want to know the answer.

:KW

Too bad there's not another Diminishing Skills Clause I could exercise on Frank. Did you see the year he had this year? He didn't even show up for games after July. He's not a grinder.


Bob

PorkChopExpress
09-08-2004, 10:30 AM
Who's padding stats?
They're padding the other teams stats, making average pitchers and average hitters look like all-stars.

As for this teams inability to walk, is it just me, or does every pitcher we face go right for the strike zone? It seems like PK, Crede, etc. always watch pitch 1 for a strike and then swing and miss/foul pitch 2 and all of sudden they're working an 0-2 count. And yet I never see this from our pitchers. Maybe I'm just focusing on the negative, but this is what it seems like when I watch our SOX.

LVSoxFan
09-08-2004, 10:33 AM
They're padding the other teams stats, making average pitchers and average hitters look like all-stars.

As for this teams inability to walk, is it just me, or does every pitcher we face go right for the strike zone? It seems like PK, Crede, etc. always watch pitch 1 for a strike and then swing and miss/foul pitch 2 and all of sudden they're working an 0-2 count. And yet I never see this from our pitchers. Maybe I'm just focusing on the negative, but this is what it seems like when I watch our SOX.
I DO notice that we have an awful lot of watched first strikes! I never got that! You'd think with the sluggers we have, we'd make those obvious first-strike fastballs a big mistake with teams. Guess not.

PorkChopExpress
09-08-2004, 10:43 AM
I DO notice that we have an awful lot of watched first strikes! I never got that! You'd think with the sluggers we have, we'd make those obvious first-strike fastballs a big mistake with teams. Guess not.
C. Lee does sometimes, but I also get so pissed at him for swinging on the first pitch a lot. If a pitcher know you're a first pitch hitter, he won't through that obvious first pitch strike, but with a guy like Paulie, he never swings first pitch (or so it seems) so why not get ahead in the count with a first pitch strike.

Clembasbal
09-08-2004, 12:04 PM
This all comes back to getting Soriano is not the answer (29 BB's this year).

mdep524
09-08-2004, 12:15 PM
They're padding the other teams stats, making average pitchers and average hitters look like all-stars.

As for this teams inability to walk, is it just me, or does every pitcher we face go right for the strike zone? It seems like PK, Crede, etc. always watch pitch 1 for a strike and then swing and miss/foul pitch 2 and all of sudden they're working an 0-2 count. And yet I never see this from our pitchers. Maybe I'm just focusing on the negative, but this is what it seems like when I watch our SOX.You're not just focusing on the negative PCE, that's the way it is with this team. The other irritating thing you may have noticed is "our Sox" will swing at anything on a 3-2 count. ANYTHING. It's like all plate judgement goes out the window when the count goes full, and the hitters decide in advance to swing at whatever the pitcher throws up there.

Bobby Thigpen
09-08-2004, 12:25 PM
Frank's ALWAYS watched the first pitch, but he's always had a ton of walks. Watching the first pitch doesn't always mean you're going to strike out.

In fact I've never understood why anyone throws anything other than something right down the middle on the first pitch to Frank. 90% of the time he doesn't swing.

PorkChopExpress
09-08-2004, 02:02 PM
Frank's ALWAYS watched the first pitch, but he's always had a ton of walks. Watching the first pitch doesn't always mean you're going to strike out.

In fact I've never understood why anyone throws anything other than something right down the middle on the first pitch to Frank. 90% of the time he doesn't swing.
Because Frank is good enough that if it comes right down the middle, he can adjust and send it a mile.

Deadguy
09-08-2004, 02:15 PM
If there was any doubt remaining about whether Sox hitters lack a solid understanding the strike zone, that doubt should be all but erased with this fact:

Frank Thomas leads this team in walks (64), and Paul Konerko (56) is second. If that doesn't tell you that this team needs to be overhauled, I don't know what will. The Sox cannot and will not win anything until they get rid of the free-swinging idiots (Valentin, Crede, Borchard) who are currently occupying sports on the Sox twenty-five-man roster.


This is just plain sad. Thomas hasn't played in about 9 or 10 weeks, and he's still leading the team in walks. We just have too many players who go off on their own with err-filled personal hitting philosophies, that makes having a hitting instructor on the staff rather pointless. It must be difficult for Walker to get these selfish, egotistical jerks to even listen to him or get on the same page with him. It's apparent that guys making a lot more money than GW probably aren't going to give him the respect that he desreves as a hitting instructor.

To think, in the early 90's, you could see Hriniak's influence on just about everyone in the lineup. And even though it may have been a style that forced Cory Snyder out of Chicago, at least it worked well with the big guns, and everyone seemed to be on the same page.

Deadguy
09-08-2004, 02:22 PM
Frank's ALWAYS watched the first pitch, but he's always had a ton of walks. Watching the first pitch doesn't always mean you're going to strike out.

In fact I've never understood why anyone throws anything other than something right down the middle on the first pitch to Frank. 90% of the time he doesn't swing.
Get over yourself and quit second guessing the approach of a guy who has had over 8,000 PAs in the MLs.

I remember Thomas sending a first pitch ball from Danny Baez into the stands in the seventh inning of a game last year that was a three run homer that took us from a one run deficit to a two run lead. Thomas said after the game, "I wasn't going up there looking to hit a single. I knew I had to be aggressive, which is why I went after the first pitch".

I don't know where you get that 90% figure from, but it's the other 10% that pitchers worry about. I'd much rather see that type of patience than the first swinging pop ups that are about as irritating to watch as it is to listen to Mila Kunis' voice. Driving up pitch counts and drawing walks are good things.

PorkChopExpress
09-08-2004, 03:54 PM
I just happened across another stat, maybe you already know, but did you realize that Frank Thomas is fifth all-time in OBP? He's behind Ted Williams at number 1, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Barry Bonds. That's impressive, not that I wasn't impressed before.

PorkChopExpress
09-09-2004, 04:35 PM
I just realized that Frank Thomas is 12th in the AL in walks, so I do not know that his leading our team is indicative of our players lack of understanding of the strike zone unless it is the same for all of the american league. 8 of the 14 teams in the american league do not have anyone on their team with more walks. Frank just had a ton of walks this year before he got hurt.

balke
09-09-2004, 04:38 PM
I just realized that Frank Thomas is 12th in the AL in walks, so I do not know that his leading our team is indicative of our players lack of understanding of the strike zone unless it is the same for all of the american league. 8 of the 14 teams in the american league do not have anyone on their team with more walks. Frank just had a ton of walks this year before he got hurt.
Frank came back looking the best I'd seen him in 3 years, regardless of BA. He finally had a counter attack in his swing to the thigh high inside pitch. I was expecting great #'s out of him this season overall.

PorkChopExpress
09-09-2004, 06:43 PM
Frank came back looking the best I'd seen him in 3 years, regardless of BA. He finally had a counter attack in his swing to the thigh high inside pitch. I was expecting great #'s out of him this season overall.
I agree. It's really too bad he got hurt, although it helps us hold on to him for one more year. If he put up the numbers he was well on his way to do, then he might have tested the free agent market and someone like the Yanks would have scooped him up.

Realist
09-09-2004, 07:03 PM
Frank's ALWAYS watched the first pitch, but he's always had a ton of walks. Watching the first pitch doesn't always mean you're going to strike out.

In fact I've never understood why anyone throws anything other than something right down the middle on the first pitch to Frank. 90% of the time he doesn't swing.
Maybe he's sitting on the "right down the middle" pitch and that accounts for the the other 10% of the time he swings at the first pitch. If it ain't the pitch he's lookin' for, he's got a fresh example of the pitcher's motion, release point and ball trajectory in his head for the next pitch.

RKMeibalane
09-09-2004, 09:54 PM
I agree. It's really too bad he got hurt, although it helps us hold on to him for one more year. If he put up the numbers he was well on his way to do, then he might have tested the free agent market and someone like the Yanks would have scooped him up.
Actually, I think the Yankees are one of the last teams Frank would play for. He has gone on record as saying that Yankee Stadium is his least favorite place to hit in, and the Yankees are the team he has done the least amount of damage against during the course of his career. They are, in fact, the only American League team other than Tampa Bay that Frank has not hit more then twenty home runs against in his career.

A team like Baltimore or Boston seems like a more realistic fit for Frank, should he ever decide to leave the South Side (*shudders*). Thomas could put up huge numbers playing eighty one games at Fenway, and the same holds true of Camden Yards, which he says is his favorite road park to play in.