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View Full Version : Boston Gammons on the upcomming Free Agent Class...


Randar68
09-07-2004, 04:49 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1875672

Interesting for the list at least. I for one would love to get Varitek and some bullpen help, maybe Pavano could be had? I don't know, but there are a lot of good names out there this year, going to be a buyers' market, IMO...

Daver
09-07-2004, 04:55 PM
It's been a buyers market for the last three years.

Baby Fisk
09-07-2004, 04:57 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1875672

Interesting for the list at least. I for one would love to get Varitek and some bullpen help, maybe Pavano could be had? I don't know, but there are a lot of good names out there this year, going to be a buyers' market, IMO...Man, what a list. Maybe we'll be buyers this year? :?:

:worship: VARITEK

Jjav829
09-07-2004, 04:59 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1875672

Interesting for the list at least. I for one would love to get Varitek and some bullpen help, maybe Pavano could be had? I don't know, but there are a lot of good names out there this year, going to be a buyers' market, IMO...You've just hit on 2 of my top 3 Free Agent wishes for the offseason. In order, 1.) Jason Varitek (unfortunately a Boras client) 2.) Carl Pavano 3.) Todd Walker. Probably not very realistic, but it's my wish list. I hope KW checks it twice. :smile:

AddisonStSox
09-07-2004, 05:08 PM
Do those lists depress anyone else? Maybe this year JR will spend some money...maybe.:(:

TimoPerez
09-07-2004, 05:11 PM
I read a prediction that the Sox will sign Jermaine Dye.

Randar68
09-07-2004, 05:29 PM
I read a prediction that the Sox will sign Jermaine Dye.
Well, he falls into a category like many others this year, it seems:

Players who MAY actually accept arbitration because they can't better their current deals on the open market...

The Sox definitely need Bullpen help, IMO, although they may be able to get by assuming everyone stays healthy, it still concerns me we don't have a trust-worthy RH'ed set-up man.

C, SS, 2B, RF, starter and setup-man/closer...

That's a TON of holes to fill for a team already projected to be at this year's starting payroll without making a single move....

SEALgep
09-07-2004, 05:47 PM
Varitek would definitely be a welcome addition, but I don't expect that. Despite Ben's recent slide, I'm still looking forward for him to contribute next year, while spending money elsewhere. My dream would be to sign Pavano and Beltran, and yes, I realize it will most likely not take place. My logic though would be to do this.

Harris 2nd
Rowand Left
Beltran CF
Thomas DH
Lee 1st
Koskie 3rd
Borchard Right
Davis Catcher
Uribe SS

Valdez Utility IF
Burke BU Catcher
Perez BU OF
Gload BU 1st/OF
Everett BU OF/DH

Garcia
Pavano
Buerhle
Contreas
(via trade*)

Trade Garland, Crede, and PK (not necessarily to the same team) for a fifth starter and either some prospects or possibly another backup (probably an infielder to cover third- unless Uribe remains a Utility Infielder and us acquiring a different SS.) This is one scenerio (unlikely as it is), but one I would be pretty satisfied with, especially with a pretty good option to trade for a starter (maybe one involving Garland and Crede.) Oh ya, and a slight pen work over as well. Of course this is probably a payroll at about $90 million, but how sweet it would be.

Randar68
09-07-2004, 05:52 PM
Varitek would definitely be a welcome addition, but I don't expect that. Despite Ben's recent slide, I'm still looking forward for him to contribute next year, while spending money elsewhere. My dream would be to sign Pavano and Beltran, and yes, I realize it will most likely not take place. My logic though would be to do this.

Harris 2nd
Rowand Left
Beltran CF
Thomas DH
Lee 1st
Koskie 3rd
Borchard Right
Davis Catcher
Uribe SS

Valdez Utility IF
Burke BU Catcher
Perez BU OF
Gload BU 1st/OF
Everett BU OF/DH

Garcia
Pavano
Buerhle
Contreas
(via trade*)

Trade Garland, Crede, and PK (not necessarily to the same team) for a fifth starter and either some prospects or possibly another backup (probably an infielder to cover third- unless Uribe remains a Utility Infielder and us acquiring a different SS.) This is one scenerio (unlikely as it is), but one I would be pretty satisfied with, especially with a pretty good option to trade for a starter (maybe one involving Garland and Crede.) Of course this is probably a payroll at about $90 million, but how sweet it would be.
With the market the way it is this year, the Sox could take a chance and look out over the next couple years:

Look who is leaving over 2005 and 2006: PK, Lee, Thomas, who am I missing? That's a lot of long-term money that they could spend if they're willing to take the hit this upcomming season... I know, deeppink...

SEALgep
09-07-2004, 05:57 PM
With the market the way it is this year, the Sox could take a chance and look out over the next couple years:

Look who is leaving over 2005 and 2006: PK, Lee, Thomas, who am I missing? That's a lot of long-term money that they could spend if they're willing to take the hit this upcomming season... I know, deeppink...I'm okay with that, if and only if, they have a major plan and are willing to see it through no matter the risk. However, I think we have a good nucleus of pitching now, and I'd hate to waste a year or two of it while it's here, healthy, and pretty young (and under contract.) I think we can really revamp this team this year, but if the market didn't allow it in a reasonable fashion, I would rather not force it. Again though, I think there are some good options out there, besides the one I've included.

Win1ForMe
09-07-2004, 06:03 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1875672

Interesting for the list at least. I for one would love to get Varitek and some bullpen help, maybe Pavano could be had? I don't know, but there are a lot of good names out there this year, going to be a buyers' market, IMO...Didn't the self proclaimed know-it-all's (I won't mention any names) shoot down the possibility of acquiring any Scott Boras clients? That would eliminate Varitek, Drew, Beltre, Beltran, Lowe, and Millwood.

I wouldn't mind us shopping the bargain bin, for position players or the bullpen at least. Guys that I would be interested in, and that wouldn't cost too much, are Damian Miller, JT Snow, Todd Walker (although he's poor defensively), Koskie, Vizquel, Jermaine Dye, and Catalanotto. Obviously we wouldn't sign every player from my list, and a lot depends which players we trade off or which positions we decide to upgrade. Urbina looks like a good bet as well.

Of course the #1 priority, and the Sox seem to be at least paying some lip service to it, is signing another good starter. I would target Ortiz or Radke, followed by Clement and Milton as backup options, and stay away from everyone else (that means Pavano, Odalis Perez, Lowe, and Millwood).

Randar68
09-07-2004, 06:12 PM
Didn't the self proclaimed know-it-all's (I won't mention any names) shoot down the possibility of acquiring any Scott Boras clients? That would eliminate Varitek, Drew, Beltre, Beltran, Lowe, and Millwood.
I think it's probably a long-shot to sign any premier Boras clients. The only thing that scares me about Varitek is the # of games he's caught the last 5 years and his age. If he's asking for a 5-year deal, that would be crazy for a team like the Sox to pay him 7-8 million, likely to be his asking price.

maurice
09-07-2004, 06:13 PM
Based on KW's recent coments, he intends to add at least two pitchers: a starter and a reliever. Given our ownership, I'd be suprised if there's any money left for any major position players, so I figure the likes of Varitek and Beltran are out of the question. For the Nth year in a row, I'll mention that it would be nice to add an IF who can both field and hit.

:angry:

hold2dibber
09-07-2004, 06:26 PM
C, SS, 2B, RF, starter and setup-man/closer...

That's a TON of holes to fill for a team already projected to be at this year's starting payroll without making a single move....
Realistically, I think the Sox can (and will have to) live with Uribe at SS and Everett in RF. That leaves C, 2B, starter and setup-man/closer. Still a lot of holes to fill and not a lot of money to fill them. I would expect them to deal Lee or Konerko to try to fill several holes with cheaper/younger players.

Rex Hudler
09-07-2004, 08:03 PM
I think it's probably a long-shot to sign any premier Boras clients. The only thing that scares me about Varitek is the # of games he's caught the last 5 years and his age. If he's asking for a 5-year deal, that would be crazy for a team like the Sox to pay him 7-8 million, likely to be his asking price.
I think you are on the right page on Varitek and every other catcher on earth. I wouldn't give ANY catcher a 5-year deal...... 3 years with catchers is pushing it.

Wealz
09-07-2004, 08:20 PM
It's going to take more than one off-season to rebuild this team and with that in mind deal Konerko and Lee and free up enough money to go after Beltre. Unlike Konerko or Lee, Beltre is a true cornerstone for a franchise.

SEALgep
09-07-2004, 08:27 PM
It's going to take more than one off-season to rebuild this team and with that in mind deal Konerko and Lee and free up enough money to go after Beltre. Unlike Konerko or Lee, Beltre is a true cornerstone for a franchise.He's definitely coming thorugh this season, but there are worries that this is a flash of brilliance. He obviously has talent, but I would be careful of investing in him as the cornerstone just yet. I agree that he is a pretty darn good player though.

TimoPerez
09-07-2004, 08:43 PM
Well, he falls into a category like many others this year, it seems:

Players who MAY actually accept arbitration because they can't better their current deals on the open market...

The Sox definitely need Bullpen help, IMO, although they may be able to get by assuming everyone stays healthy, it still concerns me we don't have a trust-worthy RH'ed set-up man.

C, SS, 2B, RF, starter and setup-man/closer...

That's a TON of holes to fill for a team already projected to be at this year's starting payroll without making a single move....Can Burke/Davis last another year? The same goes for Uribe at short and Willie Harris at second. I only expect Uribe and Harris to be better next year. Can Crede be the next Konerko and play very well next year? I htink catcher and some pitching are the biggest needs. You can keep Timo in right.

Wealz
09-07-2004, 08:59 PM
He's definitely coming thorugh this season, but there are worries that this is a flash of brilliance. He obviously has talent, but I would be careful of investing in him as the cornerstone just yet. I agree that he is a pretty darn good player though.
The number one objective for this team this off-season and every off-season until it is met should be to find a cornerstone. Spending significant money on anything else is rather pointless.

batmanZoSo
09-07-2004, 10:18 PM
Walker would be a good addition here. With the departure of Valentin, Uribe takes over full time duties at short and Walker plays about 80% of the games at second, with Willie filling in sparingly for his speed. Walker is one of those guys I think that is best when he's not out there day after day, but most of the time.

Unfortunately Walker doesn't have speed and can't lead off for you. Another option would be Cristian Guzman. He doesn't walk but he doesn't strike out. He also gets a lot of triples and doubles and can lead off for this team. Doesn't steal, but has very good speed and would score many a time on Rowand doubles in the two hold. He's basically the exact same person as Juan Uribe, they even look alike..it's uncanny. They both kind of look lackadaisical in the field, and always have their shirts half-untucked, but they're both really solid fielders. They both have about .315 obps, only with Uribe you have 20 homers instead of all those triples from Guzman.

That would give us a very solid combo up the middle in range, hands and arm strength. In this scenario you get to keep Uribe at second where his arm is probably tops in the game. Hell, it's up there for a shortstop. He makes 3.725 this year, isn't an eye popping free agent that'll garner a bidding war and the Twins can never hold on to anyone. Do you think 4.5 would land him here? I think he'd definitely be worth that.

batmanZoSo
09-07-2004, 10:25 PM
Realistically, I think the Sox can (and will have to) live with Uribe at SS and Everett in RF. That leaves C, 2B, starter and setup-man/closer. Still a lot of holes to fill and not a lot of money to fill them. I would expect them to deal Lee or Konerko to try to fill several holes with cheaper/younger players.
I agree. With catcher, we just need to find a good platoon partner for Davis. I don't like that idea too much, but it's all we can really afford. No sense spending more than a million on a catcher.

Konerko I agree should be dealt, if possible for a cheaper replacement as part of the deal. Someone in the Mark Grace mold (though I'm not expecting a .300 hitter) is all we need. I'd take the defense and freed up money for sure.

Win1ForMe
09-07-2004, 10:41 PM
It's going to take more than one off-season to rebuild this team and with that in mind deal Konerko and Lee and free up enough money to go after Beltre. Unlike Konerko or Lee, Beltre is a true cornerstone for a franchise.
That's probably one of the worst ideas I've heard up to this point.

Tragg
09-07-2004, 10:51 PM
It's going to take more than one off-season to rebuild this team and with that in mind deal Konerko and Lee and free up enough money to go after Beltre. Unlike Konerko or Lee, Beltre is a true cornerstone for a franchise.
I'm all for signing Beltran, but Boras is his agent, so back to reality.

Without Konerko and Lee, this team has zero power; mix zero power with the other hitters we have, and we win 65 games.

Losing Maggs plus an increase in payroll should be enough. Get three OBP players on offense somehow. Maybe deal ONE of Konerko/Lee but not both and I'm not comfortable with one.

Rex Hudler
09-08-2004, 12:23 AM
That's probably one of the worst ideas I've heard up to this point.
Beltre has widely been considered a failure and an underachiever in LA until this year, imagine that, a contract year. In fact, if Beltre hits like this last year, Dan Evans still likely has a job because the Dodgers would have been in the playoffs.

While that point is arguable, I think Beltre reeks of a guy who has a career year right at contract time who regresses back to mediocrity after he gets the big bucks.

hold2dibber
09-08-2004, 08:07 AM
Unfortunately Walker doesn't have speed and can't lead off for you. Another option would be Cristian Guzman. He doesn't walk but he doesn't strike out. He also gets a lot of triples and doubles and can lead off for this team. Doesn't steal, but has very good speed and would score many a time on Rowand doubles in the two hold. He's basically the exact same person as Juan Uribe, they even look alike..it's uncanny. They both kind of look lackadaisical in the field, and always have their shirts half-untucked, but they're both really solid fielders. They both have about .315 obps, only with Uribe you have 20 homers instead of all those triples from Guzman.

That would give us a very solid combo up the middle in range, hands and arm strength. In this scenario you get to keep Uribe at second where his arm is probably tops in the game. Hell, it's up there for a shortstop. He makes 3.725 this year, isn't an eye popping free agent that'll garner a bidding war and the Twins can never hold on to anyone. Do you think 4.5 would land him here? I think he'd definitely be worth that.
I want absolutely NO part of Guzman. All those triples he gets are largely a product of playing in the Metrodome. He doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, and doesn't steal bases. He's a solid fielder, but to spend (by your estimation) $4.5 million for a solid fielder is nuts. Especially, as you point out, when we already have a Guzman-like player in Uribe, but who has much more upside because he has way more power. And he's way cheaper. Put it this way, for the same price, would you rather have Guzman at SS and Uribe at 2B, or Uribe at SS, Harris at 2B and a top notch reliever in the pen ($4.5 million should be more than enough to add at least one, if not two, really good relief pitchers)?

hold2dibber
09-08-2004, 08:12 AM
The number one objective for this team this off-season and every off-season until it is met should be to find a cornerstone. Spending significant money on anything else is rather pointless.
I don't even know what that means. If it means doing like the Rangers did when they signed A-Rod, I'll take a pass (I'm sure they considered him a cornerstone). I believe I ready recently that no team (or maybe, no team in the last 30 years or something) has won the WS with as much as 1/6 of team payroll devoted to a single player. Assuming the Sox will have a payroll of no more than $65 million, this suggests they probably shouldn't devote more than $11 or $12 million/year to any one player. If signing a "cornerstone" means signing one big star to bulid around, you'd have to be real careful about how much you're spending. Did the Angels have a cornerstone? Did the Marlins? Did the Yankees of the late '90's? The thing all those teams have in common is that they were just that - teams, not a big star with a supporting cast. I prefer that model by a long shot.

fledgedrallycap
09-08-2004, 08:28 AM
I would expect them to deal Lee or Konerko to try to fill several holes with cheaper/younger players.
That seems to be the word at the Cell per reporters like Levine. If that is the case, Paulie is the odd man out.

jabrch
09-08-2004, 08:36 AM
Count em - 1. Beltre has never hit before this year in any fashion resembling what he is doing now. Are you sure you'd want to tie up a lot of money in this guy? I wouldn't - not a chance. We also just drafted a college 3B in Fields. Why should we be signing Beltre?

gosox41
09-08-2004, 08:46 AM
I think it's probably a long-shot to sign any premier Boras clients. The only thing that scares me about Varitek is the # of games he's caught the last 5 years and his age. If he's asking for a 5-year deal, that would be crazy for a team like the Sox to pay him 7-8 million, likely to be his asking price.
:KW
Me overpay??? There's no deal that's too big or too stupid for me.



Bob

PorkChopExpress
09-08-2004, 09:40 AM
The number one objective for this team this off-season and every off-season until it is met should be to find a cornerstone. Spending significant money on anything else is rather pointless.
But we already have Borchard.

Randar68
09-08-2004, 11:58 AM
I don't even know what that means. If it means doing like the Rangers did when they signed A-Rod, I'll take a pass (I'm sure they considered him a cornerstone). I believe I ready recently that no team (or maybe, no team in the last 30 years or something) has won the WS with as much as 1/6 of team payroll devoted to a single player. Assuming the Sox will have a payroll of no more than $65 million, this suggests they probably shouldn't devote more than $11 or $12 million/year to any one player. If signing a "cornerstone" means signing one big star to bulid around, you'd have to be real careful about how much you're spending. Did the Angels have a cornerstone? Did the Marlins? Did the Yankees of the late '90's? The thing all those teams have in common is that they were just that - teams, not a big star with a supporting cast. I prefer that model by a long shot.
I agree, but the sum of the pieces still must be something fantastic.

mdep524
09-08-2004, 12:48 PM
Another option would be Cristian Guzman. He doesn't walk but he doesn't strike out. He also gets a lot of triples and doubles and can lead off for this team. Doesn't steal, but has very good speed and would score many a time on Rowand doubles in the two hold. He's basically the exact same person as Juan Uribe, they even look alike..it's uncanny. They both kind of look lackadaisical in the field, and always have their shirts half-untucked, but they're both really solid fielders. They both have about .315 obps, only with Uribe you have 20 homers instead of all those triples from Guzman.
I want absolutely NO part of Guzman. All those triples he gets are largely a product of playing in the Metrodome. He doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, and doesn't steal bases. He's a solid fielder, but to spend (by your estimation) $4.5 million for a solid fielder is nuts. Especially, as you point out, when we already have a Guzman-like player in Uribe, but who has much more upside because he has way more power. And he's way cheaper. Put it this way, for the same price, would you rather have Guzman at SS and Uribe at 2B, or Uribe at SS, Harris at 2B and a top notch reliever in the pen ($4.5 million should be more than enough to add at least one, if not two, really good relief pitchers)?
I agree with dibber on this one. I've seen Guzman's name banded about here lately- I DESPISE Christian Guzman and want him nowhere near the White Sox next year. As dibber mentioned, he doesn't do the things the Sox need very well, and IMO his defense is overrated (bad footwork, wild throws). From what I've seen, I'll take Uribe in the field over him any day. We could also get similar production at the plate out of Uribe, who is cheaper and less of a thug. Guzman belongs with Coco Crisp, CC Sabathia and the Crooked Hat Thug Cleveland Indians.

Wealz
09-08-2004, 01:18 PM
I don't even know what that means. If it means doing like the Rangers did when they signed A-Rod, I'll take a pass (I'm sure they considered him a cornerstone). I believe I ready recently that no team (or maybe, no team in the last 30 years or something) has won the WS with as much as 1/6 of team payroll devoted to a single player. Assuming the Sox will have a payroll of no more than $65 million, this suggests they probably shouldn't devote more than $11 or $12 million/year to any one player. If signing a "cornerstone" means signing one big star to bulid around, you'd have to be real careful about how much you're spending. Did the Angels have a cornerstone? Did the Marlins? Did the Yankees of the late '90's? The thing all those teams have in common is that they were just that - teams, not a big star with a supporting cast. I prefer that model by a long shot.
Would you trade Konerko and Lee for Beltre? I would and that's essentially what I'm proposing. It's not adding payroll necessarilly, though I'd be surprised if teams would take Konerko and Lee's full salary, so there might be some.

Certainly there are risks with Beltre, but those risks might lower his cost. With Rowand in center, Uribe at short, and Belte at third the Sox would have three of the most difficult positions to fill for years to come.

santo=dorf
09-08-2004, 01:21 PM
Would you trade Konerko and Lee for Beltre? I would and that's essentially what I'm proposing. It's not adding payroll necessarilly, though I'd be surprised if teams would take Konerko and Lee's full salary, so there might be some.


GOD THAT IS A STUPID IDEA!!!

mdep524
09-08-2004, 01:25 PM
Would you trade Konerko and Lee for Beltre? I would and that's essentially what I'm proposing. It's not adding payroll necessarilly, though I'd be surprised if teams would take Konerko and Lee's full salary, so there might be some.
Wow, I think that is an awful trade off, straight up. And I don't even like Konerko.

thepaulbowski
09-08-2004, 02:47 PM
Would you trade Konerko and Lee for Beltre? I would and that's essentially what I'm proposing. It's not adding payroll necessarilly, though I'd be surprised if teams would take Konerko and Lee's full salary, so there might be some.

Certainly there are risks with Beltre, but those risks might lower his cost. With Rowand in center, Uribe at short, and Belte at third the Sox would have three of the most difficult positions to fill for years to come.
By doing this you creat yet another hole on this team, it doesn't make sense.

Wealz
09-08-2004, 03:35 PM
By doing this you creat yet another hole on this team, it doesn't make sense.
LF'ers and first basemen grow on trees relatively speaking. 25-year-old gold glove third basemen coming off a 40+ homer season in an extreme pitcher's park are a much rarer commodity to say the least.

Cowch44
09-08-2004, 03:46 PM
the $17 million-plus numbers enjoyed by Alex Rodriguez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5275), Derek Jeter (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5406), Manny Ramirez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5132), Sammy Sosa (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4344), Carlos Delgado (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5178) and Jason Giambi (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5386).
God I hate the Yankees...:angry:

Cowch44
09-08-2004, 03:47 PM
LF'ers and first basemen grow on trees relatively speaking. 25-year-old gold glove third basemen coming off a 40+ homer season in an extreme pitcher's park are a much rarer commodity to say the least.Name 10 other LFs that are as good as or better than Lee...

Wealz
09-08-2004, 04:38 PM
Name 10 other LFs that are as good as or better than Lee...
Bonds
Sheffield
Ramirez
Berkman
Alou
Rowand
Beltran
A. Jones
C. Jones
B. Giles
Edmonds

To name a few ...

SoxFanForever
09-08-2004, 04:39 PM
Name 10 other LFs that are as good as or better than Lee...
Manny Ramirez, Miguel Cabrera, Hideki Matsui, Moises Alou, Barry Bonds, Adam Dunn, Jose Guillen, Chipper Jones(Played LF until earlier this year and plays 3B), Pujols(played LF, 1B and a few other spots), Burnitz(not every year but this year atleast), Aubrey Huff, Geoff Jenkins.....just to name a few :D:

soxfanreggie
09-08-2004, 04:44 PM
I would definitely not trade Lee and Konerko straight up for Beltre alone. Crede can field, so hopefully, he will start contributing some offense.

If we don't resign Mags, Everett, Valentin, the Alomars, and Schoey, we'd free up about $25 million. If Beltran would agree to a 6 year $75-90 million deal, we could still have about 10-12 million to spend on a shortstop...like Vizquel and bullpen pitching like Urbina or others plus some other cash to spend on other players. Having Perez, Gload, Rowand, Borchard, Mags/Beltran/?, Lee, etc. to partrol the outfield we can afford to not resign Everett and worry about adding to the infield and pitching staff.

Let's hope Jerry opens up the checkbook a little more this year to add better players...

thepaulbowski
09-08-2004, 04:48 PM
Bonds
Sheffield
Ramirez
Berkman
Alou
Rowand
Beltran
A. Jones
C. Jones
B. Giles
Edmonds

To name a few ...
Alou...:rolling:

You have named CF'ers, third basemen, too. C Lee probably makes less than everybody listed except Rowand. CLee has proven what he can do for a few years now, Rowand hasn't. Check back in a few years with him.

SoxFanForever
09-08-2004, 04:48 PM
Bonds
Sheffield
Ramirez
Berkman
Alou
Rowand
Beltran
A. Jones
C. Jones
B. Giles
Edmonds

To name a few ...You ready my mind! :o:

Except like someone said, they aren't all LF's

Wealz
09-08-2004, 04:55 PM
Alou...:rolling:

You have named CF'ers, third basemen, too. C Lee probably makes less than everybody listed except Rowand. CLee has proven what he can do for a few years now, Rowand hasn't. Check back in a few years with him.
Point is LF is a luxury for a team with big holes at third, short, and second.

Wealz
09-08-2004, 04:58 PM
You ready my mind! :o:

Except like someone said, they aren't all LF's
If you can play center . . .

Win1ForMe
09-08-2004, 05:24 PM
LF'ers and first basemen grow on trees relatively speaking. 25-year-old gold glove third basemen coming off a 40+ homer season in an extreme pitcher's park are a much rarer commodity to say the least.
Lee and Konerko are both 2nd in the AL in OPS at their respective positions.

Both players have been more productive than Beltre in their careers, and each will cost less than Beltre. So you think that's a good trade?

BTW, here's what Beltre's numbers should like next season: .280/26 HR/85 RBI.

hold2dibber
09-08-2004, 05:32 PM
If we don't resign Mags, Everett, Valentin, the Alomars, and Schoey, we'd free up about $25 million. If Beltran would agree to a 6 year $75-90 million deal, we could still have about 10-12 million to spend on a shortstop...like Vizquel and bullpen pitching like Urbina or others plus some other cash to spend on other players. Having Perez, Gload, Rowand, Borchard, Mags/Beltran/?, Lee, etc. to partrol the outfield we can afford to not resign Everett and worry about adding to the infield and pitching staff.
The Sox aren't going to have nearly the amount of money to throw around that you suggest. First, Everett (as I understand it) has a player option for about $4 million for next year. I seriously doubt that he'd be able to better that on the open market, so I would expect him to exercise that option and be with the team next year, barring a trade. Second, although the other guys you mention will be off of payroll next year, the Sox have already added Garcia ($9 million), Contreras ($6 million) and presumably Everett ($4 million) to the payroll for next year and the other players remaining under contract will receive raises of about $12 million total. So as things stand right now, the Sox payroll going into next year will be about the same as it was going into this year (Loaiza also comes off the payroll, as does Politte). Which means that there will be room to add free agents only if (1) the Sox trade some payroll (e.g., Lee, Konerko, Garland); and/or (2) ownership ups the payroll.

Randar68
09-08-2004, 05:48 PM
Bonds
Sheffield
Ramirez
Berkman
Alou
Rowand
Beltran
A. Jones
C. Jones
B. Giles
Edmonds

To name a few ...
*****! Half those guys aren't even LF'ers. Reading comprehension lacking again in a pathetic grasp at making a weak-ass point.

Wealz
09-08-2004, 06:08 PM
*****! Half those guys aren't even LF'ers. Reading comprehension lacking again in a pathetic grasp at making a weak-ass point.
Well, you've annointed yourself "Head Scout" here at WSI so if you think Beltran couldn't play left . . . I'll take your word for it.

Randar68
09-08-2004, 06:13 PM
Well, you've annointed yourself "Head Scout" here at WSI so if you think Beltran couldn't play left . . . I'll take your word for it.:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:
I haven't anointed myself anything.

BTW, I bet ARod could play LF too. But that wasn't the question, now was it?

Don't bother trying to actually make a point, as I see you've already anointed yourself "Village Idiot."

Fabricate something else to answer another question by ignoring the basis of the question at hand.

Classic.

stl_sox_fan
09-08-2004, 06:18 PM
I got to see Drew play a lot in STL before they shipped him to ATL. He would be a nice left handed bat and right fielder in the post Mags days to come. Except he cannot take 50mph fastballs from David Wells.

Who knows more about this quote?

Didn't the self proclaimed know-it-all's (I won't mention any names) shoot down the possibility of acquiring any Scott Boras clients? That would eliminate Varitek, Drew, Beltre, Beltran, Lowe, and Millwood.

Wealz
09-08-2004, 06:23 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:
I haven't anointed myself anything.

BTW, I bet ARod could play LF too. But that wasn't the question, now was it?

Don't bother trying to actually make a point, as I see you've already anointed yourself "Village Idiot."

Fabricate something else to answer another question by ignoring the basis of the question at hand.

Classic.
Surely the scout in you understands that if you can play center, you can play left and it's just that point that underscores how much easier it is to find a LF'er than it is a third baseman. If you can play center or right you can play left.

Randar68
09-08-2004, 06:25 PM
Surely the scout in you understands that if you can play center, you can play left and it's just that point that underscores how much easier it is to find a LF'er than it is a third baseman. If you can play center or right you can play left.
Obviously. And obviously, that was not the question. CF'ers are hard enough to find that they don't play LF. Nobody asked if Carlos was the best OF'er.

But that was "obvious"

Wealz
09-08-2004, 06:29 PM
Obviously. And obviously, that was not the question. CF'ers are hard enough to find that they don't play LF. Nobody asked if Carlos was the best OF'er.

But that was "obvious"
Don't you think the Sox would be a better team with Beltran in center and Rowand in left rather than their current configuration?

Randar68
09-08-2004, 06:31 PM
Don't you think the Sox would be a better team with Beltran in center and Rowand in left rather than their current configuration?
Ummmm. DUH. Again, was that the question? Would they be a better team with Rowand in RF, Lee in LF and Beltran in CF?

DUH...

That doesn't make it any more relevant.

Wealz
09-08-2004, 06:34 PM
Ummmm. DUH. Again, was that the question? Would they be a better team with Rowand in RF, Lee in LF and Beltran in CF?

DUH...

That doesn't make it any more relevant.
LF is one of the easiest positions to fill.

batmanZoSo
09-08-2004, 11:09 PM
I want absolutely NO part of Guzman. All those triples he gets are largely a product of playing in the Metrodome. He doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, and doesn't steal bases. He's a solid fielder, but to spend (by your estimation) $4.5 million for a solid fielder is nuts. Especially, as you point out, when we already have a Guzman-like player in Uribe, but who has much more upside because he has way more power. And he's way cheaper. Put it this way, for the same price, would you rather have Guzman at SS and Uribe at 2B, or Uribe at SS, Harris at 2B and a top notch reliever in the pen ($4.5 million should be more than enough to add at least one, if not two, really good relief pitchers)?
How does the metrodome create triples? It's not a huge outfield like Comerica or anything. It's an average field, if anything it's a little small. He gets a lot of triples because he's fast and he hits a lot of gappers. He's got about 30 doubles, probably end up with close to 40. He's not just a solid fielder.

Furthermore, Harris cannot play every day, Guzman is a legitimate everyday starting shortstop. Harris sucks. Maggs and Valentin are history, and we trade 40 home run Konerko and get a stud reliever in return along with whatever. Then we sign Guzman. So what would you rather have--Guzman and Guillermo Mota or Harris and Guillermo Mota?

I agree that Guzman's no better than Uribe, but he's been playing a lot longer. And with success. This is Uribe's first year doing anything, if he keeps it up he's not gonna be making 500k for long. It would be ideal to repeat the Uribe find and have another solid middle infielder making under a million but what are the odds it's gonna happen two years in a row?

Another guy I'd like to have is Cesar Izturis. He's 24, has 22 steals, a pretty solid .330 obp (for a speedy middle infielder anyway, still better than Uribe or Guzman), .289 average. I don't know how he is in the field, but I think he's pretty good from the few things I've heard about him. LA would probably be interested in Konerko.

Just throwing out ideas. Guzman is just one option I see, and I disagree with your evaluation of him.

Rex Hudler
09-09-2004, 12:15 AM
I'll add this just once more for emphasis....... not that Wealz or others will agree..........

I think Beltre reeks of a guy who has a career year right at contract time who regresses back to mediocrity after he gets the big bucks. He has been a constant disappointment for the last 5 years in LA. They talked about him like Sox fans talk about Crede. Maybe he finally "got it" or maybe he finally got motivated?

I don't see the Sox having that great of a need to risk a high percentage of their budget on a guy that in two years may not be any better than Crede.

santo=dorf
09-09-2004, 12:18 AM
I'll add this just once more for emphasis....... not that Wealz or others will agree..........

I think Beltre reeks of a guy who has a career year right at contract time who regresses back to mediocrity after he gets the big bucks. He has been a constant disappointment for the last 5 years in LA. They talked about him like Sox fans talk about Crede. Maybe he finally "got it" or maybe he finally got motivated?

I don't see the Sox having that great of a need to risk a high percentage of their budget on a guy that in two years may not be any better than Crede.
DING DING DING!!!!!

And isn't Beltre playing with bone chips in his foot? With our luck we would sign him and then he'd beout for the season. :rolleyes:

jordan23ventura
09-09-2004, 03:49 AM
Beltre has widely been considered a failure and an underachiever in LA until this year, imagine that, a contract year. In fact, if Beltre hits like this last year, Dan Evans still likely has a job because the Dodgers would have been in the playoffs.

While that point is arguable, I think Beltre reeks of a guy who has a career year right at contract time who regresses back to mediocrity after he gets the big bucks.
That's ridiculous. Look at the numbers:
2002 159G .257AVG 21HR 75RBI .303OBP .426SLG 96K 37BB
2003 158G .240AVG 23HR 80RBI .290OBP .424SLG 103K 37BB
2004 133G .340AVG 44HR 102RBI .386OBP .649SLG 74K 40BB

While it's normal to see numbers go up in a contract year, this jump is ridiculous. The numbers that he's putting up this year are what LA thought he would eventually put up consistently. Can't it just be a coincidence that he breaks out during his contract year?

mjmcend
09-09-2004, 04:24 AM
That's ridiculous. Look at the numbers:
2002 159G .257AVG 21HR 75RBI .303OBP .426SLG 96K 37BB
2003 158G .240AVG 23HR 80RBI .290OBP .424SLG 103K 37BB
2004 133G .340AVG 44HR 102RBI .386OBP .649SLG 74K 40BB

While it's normal to see numbers go up in a contract year, this jump is ridiculous. The numbers that he's putting up this year are what LA thought he would eventually put up consistently. Can't it just be a coincidence that he breaks out during his contract year?
It could be a coincidence and maybe he will hit over .330/40/100 for the next 5 years or isn't it more likely he will find some not so happy medium of around .280/30/90. For a team with our payroll it is not even close to being worth that risk.

hold2dibber
09-09-2004, 07:51 AM
How does the metrodome create triples? It's not a huge outfield like Comerica or anything. It's an average field, if anything it's a little small. He gets a lot of triples because he's fast and he hits a lot of gappers. He's got about 30 doubles, probably end up with close to 40. He's not just a solid fielder.
You may be right - but I would think the fast turf at the metrodome would turn a lot of balls that would be caught or cut off into gappers or extra base hits down the line. For whatever it's worth, over the last 3 years, he has almost twice as many doubles at home as on the road (22 on the road, 12 at home). Also, while he does have decent 2B totals, he is lousy offensively; no power and no ability to get on base. For his career, he has a .303 OBP and an OPS of .684. He's a solid fielder and that's about it.


Furthermore, Harris cannot play every day, Guzman is a legitimate everyday starting shortstop. Harris sucks. Maggs and Valentin are history, and we trade 40 home run Konerko and get a stud reliever in return along with whatever. Then we sign Guzman. So what would you rather have--Guzman and Guillermo Mota or Harris and Guillermo Mota?.
I don't know if Harris can play every day; Ozzie hasn't given him the chance. He really should. Harris has a .344 OBP right now, way better than Guzman. He, unlike Guzman hasn't had the chance to show what he can do as an everyday player, but to me, there's every indication that Harris can be at least as good. And in any event, the issue I guess is whether Guzman is $4.5 million better than Harris. The question, under your hypothetical, isn't whether you'd rather have Guzman and Mota or Harris and Mota; it's whether you'd rather have Guzman and Mota, or Harris and Mota and $4.5 million to sign more players. For $4.5 million, you can get some arms - and this teams needs some arms way more than it needs another infielder that can't hit a lick.

I agree that Guzman's no better than Uribe, but he's been playing a lot longer. And with success. This is Uribe's first year doing anything, if he keeps it up he's not gonna be making 500k for long. It would be ideal to repeat the Uribe find and have another solid middle infielder making under a million but what are the odds it's gonna happen two years in a row?

Another guy I'd like to have is Cesar Izturis. He's 24, has 22 steals, a pretty solid .330 obp (for a speedy middle infielder anyway, still better than Uribe or Guzman), .289 average. I don't know how he is in the field, but I think he's pretty good from the few things I've heard about him. LA would probably be interested in Konerko.

Just throwing out ideas. Guzman is just one option I see, and I disagree with your evaluation of him.[/QUOTE]

Tragg
09-10-2004, 10:14 PM
Point is LF is a luxury for a team with big holes at third, short, and second.That's backwards- if you want to have big offensive players at short and second, you have to pay a huge premium because there are so few offensive players at those positions. It's much easier and cheaper to take your offensive holes at catcher, and short.
We have a hole at RF and at lead-off; I'd concentrate on those because they are easier to fill. Tying a bunch of payroll up for a good hitting SS or Catcher when they hit no better than an average left-fielder, doesn't make sense, imo

akingamongstmen
09-11-2004, 12:39 AM
Maggs and Valentin are history, and we trade 40 home run Konerko and get a stud reliever in return along with whatever. Then we sign Guzman. So what would you rather have--Guzman and Guillermo Mota or Harris and Guillermo Mota?

...

LA would probably be interested in Konerko.

I just don't get it. What more can Konerko do to make people happy? 50 homers? 130 RBIs? While standing on his head??? Paul Konerko is not a throw-away. He's a dangerous power hitter that more often than not will come through in the clutch. I'm all for adding arms in the bullpen, but who's going to play 1B? Ross Gload?! :unsure:

batmanZoSo
09-11-2004, 05:37 PM
I just don't get it. What more can Konerko do to make people happy? 50 homers? 130 RBIs? While standing on his head??? Paul Konerko is not a throw-away. He's a dangerous power hitter that more often than not will come through in the clutch. I'm all for adding arms in the bullpen, but who's going to play 1B? Ross Gload?! :unsure:
Any guy that can have a year like he did in 03--while healthy--is not a guy you want to keep around for 8 million in a limited budget, especially when you have a ton of power on your team already. If Konerko got on base at a .400 clip, he'd be alright, but he's .350 at best and doesn't take a walk with zero speed and zero range in the field.

gosox41
09-13-2004, 09:58 AM
I just don't get it. What more can Konerko do to make people happy? 50 homers? 130 RBIs? While standing on his head??? :unsure:
He can take a paycut until he proves this year was no fluke.



Bob

batmanZoSo
09-13-2004, 04:33 PM
He can take a paycut until he proves this year was no fluke.



Bob
Well calling this year a fluke implies that it's some kind of monster year he's having when it really isn't. He's hit a handful of extra homers than in years past because the Cell has become a hitter's haven. And almost all of his long ones have come at home. He only has 21 doubles, batting .274 and a .350 on-base. He's just been on a steady home run binge since late June or so. Basically if he's not hitting home runs he isn't doing anything. It's been that way with him all year. He was much more fearsome and productive in 02.