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View Full Version : Mariners call up Jeremy Reed


A. Cavatica
09-07-2004, 09:43 AM
Now we find out what all the fuss was about. :smile:

JRIG
09-07-2004, 10:18 AM
Yeah, they were waiting until they got back to Seattle after the road trip to do it. Plus Tacoma was still in action.

I'm also excited because I've had Reed stashed away on my fantasy team for about a year now and I (hopefully) finally will see some return on that.

kittle42
09-07-2004, 11:00 AM
jeremyb1 has now ordered satellite so he can watch every AB.

Hangar18
09-07-2004, 11:40 AM
Notice how the Mariners got 3 really GOOD, and SERVICABLE players
for Freddy Garcia. The Pirates?
I hate to say this, I hope he doesnt do well, he shouldve still been in our
Minor Leagues ....... all because we were in a "Payroll Reduction" mode .....
resulting in the eventual loss of guys like Reed ..........

JB98
09-07-2004, 11:45 AM
jeremyb1 has now ordered satellite so he can watch every AB.
I can hardly wait for the daily updates to begin.

jeremyb1
09-07-2004, 11:58 AM
I can hardly wait for the daily updates to begin.

Ask and you shall receive.

"It's everything you dream about and more," said Reed, a top prospect who came over in the trade that sent Freddy Garcia to Chicago. "I've never once played with a jersey with my name on it. It's a big thrill."

Reed batted .305 in 61 games with Tacoma, driving in 36 runs and stealing 13 bases. He'll probably see time in center field.

"I'm very excited to see him," manager Bob Melvin said. "This is a guy who, during the Freddy trade, they were talking about being one of the best hitting prospects in the minor leagues."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/189733_mbok07.html

DrCrawdad
09-07-2004, 12:25 PM
I, for one, am glad that the Sox got Garcia. I think the Sox gave up too much but that's how it goes.

I wish Jeremy Reed the best.

doublem23
09-07-2004, 12:52 PM
Notice how the Mariners got 3 really GOOD, and SERVICABLE players
for Freddy Garcia.
Come on, Hangar. Olivo is a nice acquisition, no doubt, but I think we can all agree that Ben Davis is at least a decent replacement. Reed and Morse have seen zero action in the Majors, so who knows how they'll really preform?

kittle42
09-07-2004, 12:53 PM
I, for one, am glad that the Sox got Garcia. I think the Sox gave up too much but that's how it goes.

I wish Jeremy Reed the best.
Not me. Given the consistent KW bashing around here, I hope he's mediocre.

gosox41
09-07-2004, 01:12 PM
Not me. Given the consistent KW bashing around here, I hope he's mediocre.
Why? It's not Reed's fault he was traded. KW not being a good GM isn't Reed's fault.


Bob

thepaulbowski
09-07-2004, 01:51 PM
Why? It's not Reed's fault he was traded. KW not being a good GM isn't Reed's fault.


Bob
Reed is on another AL ballclub. I don't wish him ill-will, but I have no rooting intrest in him. If he fails, I don't care. I know some wish he would have played this last week and hit a game winning homer in each game off of the Sox just so they could get their KW digs in.

Who cares what he does, he doesn't play for the Sox?!?!

kittle42
09-07-2004, 01:57 PM
Reed is on another AL ballclub. I don't wish him ill-will, but I have no rooting intrest in him. If he fails, I don't care. I know some wish he would have played this last week and hit a game winning homer in each game off of the Sox just so they could get their KW digs in.

Who cares what he does, he doesn't play for the Sox?!?!
I guess I don't really care what he does at all. My comment had to do more with the fact that I'd rather see him play poorly so I don't need to see 10,000 more KW sucks and Jeremy Reed is god threads.

thepaulbowski
09-07-2004, 02:01 PM
I guess I don't really care what he does at all. My comment had to do more with the fact that I'd rather see him play poorly so I don't need to see 10,000 more KW sucks and Jeremy Reed is god threads.
No matter what happens some seem to have a vendetta. :(:

Wealz
09-07-2004, 02:24 PM
Not me. Given the consistent KW bashing around here, I hope he's mediocre.
Are you suggesting the bashing is unwarrented? I hope Reed is terrific as that can only hasten Williams' departure.

santo=dorf
09-07-2004, 02:41 PM
Are you suggesting the bashing is unwarrented? I hope Reed is terrific as that can only hasten Williams' departure.
Why? So he can be replaced by some other no-experience, work for the minimum, GM?

:reinsy

"Great minds think alike."

Frater Perdurabo
09-07-2004, 02:44 PM
Maybe if Reed performs well for the Mariners, Ichiro will become "expendable" and he'll seek a trade to play in front of what he calls the "smartest fans in baseball." :gulp:

Wealz
09-07-2004, 02:46 PM
Why? So he can be replaced by some other no-experience, work for the minimum, GM?

:reinsy

"Great minds think alike."
Yes like Hendry, Ryan, or Epstein.

Baby Fisk
09-07-2004, 04:00 PM
I hope Reed is terrific as that can only hasten Williams' departure.That must be different from wanting someone like Contreras for example to continue being a stud for the Sox, because that would delay Williams' departure. :rolleyes:

santo=dorf
09-07-2004, 04:05 PM
Yes like Hendry, Ryan, or Epstein.I fixed your post Wealz.

Also, how much of a better team do you think KW could put on the field if he had the same payrolls that Hendry and Theo get to play with?

doublem23
09-07-2004, 04:15 PM
Yes like Hendry, Ryan, or Epstein.
$1,000 says Kenny Williams could do just as good a job as Hendry or Epstein if he had the money at his disposal that they do.

thepaulbowski
09-07-2004, 04:33 PM
$1,000 says Kenny Williams could do just as good a job as Hendry or Epstein if he had the money at his disposal that they do.

What, money comes in the equation too?!?! Shocking. It's like some people say at my job " Do anything you can to better the business, but don't spend any money."

Hangar18
09-07-2004, 04:51 PM
$1,000 says Kenny Williams could do just as good a job as Hendry or Epstein if he had the money at his disposal that they do.

With a huge payroll, I COULD DO A BETTER JOB :angry:

Randar68
09-07-2004, 05:02 PM
With a huge payroll, I COULD DO A BETTER JOB :angry:
It really is humorous to see how people always perceive their jobs as being difficult, but everyone else has a piece of cake job...

thepaulbowski
09-07-2004, 05:30 PM
It really is humorous to see how people always perceive their jobs as being difficult, but everyone else has a piece of cake job...
Part of this is a result of all the fantasy leagues that people play. People feel they can be a fantasy league GM and do it well, why can't a certain somebody do the same thing in real life. It causes people who know nothing to think they know everything.

A. Cavatica
09-07-2004, 06:12 PM
I guess bringing up Reed is still touching a nerve.

Look, we all rooted hard for him in the minors, and I for one can't turn that off the moment he's traded. I'll probably root for him until he has enough success that he develops an attitude, just like many before him (Thomas & Bonilla come to mind).

JB98
09-07-2004, 06:20 PM
I have to admit I don't care what Reed does. He doesn't play for the White Sox. He never played for the White Sox, and I can't miss a player we never had.

Randar68
09-07-2004, 06:25 PM
I guess bringing up Reed is still touching a nerve.

Look, we all rooted hard for him in the minors, and I for one can't turn that off the moment he's traded. I'll probably root for him until he has enough success that he develops an attitude, just like many before him (Thomas & Bonilla come to mind).
I agree with you, especially if you follow/cover/see any of these guys when they're just prospects.

I'll always root for guys like Olivo, Rauch, and Reed, no matter what anyone tells me, but we don't need to revisit the topic weekly, daily, or even monthly for that matter...

balke
09-07-2004, 07:28 PM
Yes like Hendry, Ryan, or Epstein. What's up with the flub lovin from people on the page? You'd think from all the KW "mishaps" that are pointed out, someone would point out Jim Hendry and his failures to find a 3Bman before Ramirez. Like bringing the flubs the Strikeout leader of the Majors to fill in at 3rd (Jose Hernandez), in the midst of a pennant chase.

Hendry struck gold w/ Pitt, when none wanted to deal with the attitude of Ramirez. Big whoop. get off his jock, or start wearin blue. And why don't you ride Epstein for not closing the A-rod deal, or getting more out of the cubs for Garciaparra while you're at it?

nodiggity59
09-07-2004, 07:36 PM
And why don't you ride Epstein for not closing the A-rod deal, or getting more out of the cubs for Garciaparra while you're at it?
That is SOOOOOOOO true. Some people blame the Red Sox ownership, but still it didn't get done. Those are two major Fups. People get mad at KW for giving up 3 pitchers for Ritchie, but going for ARod, missing, and subsequently alienating a great shortstop forciong you to get less than his value in a trade is a BIG TIME Fup, IMO.

Wealz
09-07-2004, 07:42 PM
$1,000 says Kenny Williams could do just as good a job as Hendry or Epstein if he had the money at his disposal that they do.
As long as the Yankees are in the same division as the White Sox I'll take that bet. While we're at it give Ryan, Beane, or Beinfest Williams payroll and I bet they all do a better job.

santo=dorf
09-07-2004, 08:08 PM
As long as the Yankees are in the same division as the White Sox I'll take that bet. While we're at it give Ryan, Beane, or Beinfest Williams payroll and I bet they all do a better job.
The goal is to win the World Series, not just a bunch of division titles. Even your boy Beane knows that. Don't you think we will have to go throught the Yankees if we are ever going to win a WS?

jeremyb1
09-08-2004, 02:11 AM
Epstein has had less money to spend than KW his first two seasons on the job since KW has been responsible for nearly every player on the roster now due to his tenure while Theo inherited huge contracts and money still owed to players no longer on the roster.

Hendry has had a larger payroll but 70 million vs. 90 million isn't the difference between the Yanks and the Brewers even if it is considerable.

santo=dorf
09-08-2004, 02:32 AM
Epstein has had less money to spend than KW his first two seasons on the job since KW has been responsible for nearly every player on the roster now due to his tenure while Theo inherited huge contracts and money still owed to players no longer on the roster.
:whoflungpoo
OMG not this argument again. Please read win1forme's argument before you start spouting this gibberish off again.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38622&highlight=poor+theo

So Theo is at a disadvantage because Pedro, Manny, Varitek, Nomar, Lowe, and Wakefield were already under contract when he took over? Boston still has the second highest payroll in the MLB.

gosox41
09-08-2004, 10:25 AM
I guess I don't really care what he does at all. My comment had to do more with the fact that I'd rather see him play poorly so I don't need to see 10,000 more KW sucks and Jeremy Reed is god threads.
As long as I'm around and the Sox keep disappointing year in and year out I'll be here to provide the KW sucks threads. I'm not in the Reed is god category but I wish him well and hope he has a good career.


Bob

jeremyb1
09-08-2004, 12:57 PM
:whoflungpoo
OMG not this argument again. Please read win1forme's argument before you start spouting this gibberish off again.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38622&highlight=poor+theo

My apologies. I never saw that reply. Thank you for the link.

So Theo is at a disadvantage because Pedro, Manny, Varitek, Nomar, Lowe, and Wakefield were already under contract when he took over? Boston still has the second highest payroll in the MLB.

So what? You're acting as if those salaries are somehow burdens on the club and the players signed by the previous regime are not performing.

Yeah, poor Theo. He had to budget $50 million on filling out *half* the team to compliment 3 superstar players, whereas Kenny has to budget $67 million on the *entire* team. Pedro, Nomar, Damon, Varitek, Wakefield, and Manny really had nothing to do with the team's success. What an achievement by Theo and what a ridiculous post.

Just to set the record straight the argument that is being made is that KW is just as good a GM as Epstein, but Theo's team is far better because they have a larger payroll, correct? IE, KW spends money just as efficiently as Theo yet Theo wins because he has a larger payroll in which to spend, right?

Epstein had 73 million spent on 7 players coming into this season, I'd argue that the remaining 18 guys on his roster are just as good as any 18 guys on our roster. Let's look at who's actually signed players more efficiently. Would you rather have Schilling at 12 million or Garcia at 9? David Ortiz at 5 million or Konerko at 8 million? Meuller at 2.1 million or Jose at over 5? Millar at 3.3 or Carlos at 6.5 million? Foulke is really Epstein's only financially risky signing.

To argue that he's benefitted greatly from the 73 million he had coming in is just atrocious in my opinion. If we're talking about whether a GM benefits or does not benefit from money, the key to the argument is how efficiently the GM signs players. If a GM acquires a player for 7 million a season that is terrible, he's doing a poor job. If he signs Loaiza for 500,000 and he almost wins the Cy Young he's doing well. First of all, talking about how well Dan Duquette allocated money in Boston has NOTHING to do with Epstein. Epstein has spent about 50 million there and how thrifty he was with it should be all that speaks to his efficiency with money, managing a payroll. KW has spent 67 million so we have to look to all 67 million to determine his efficiency.

If people are seriously going to argue that Epstein benefits from the manner in which the 73 million was already spent, there's no enough common ground for this conversation. Pedro and Nomar are free agents this offseason, do you think the market is going to dictate that they continue to make 17.5 and 11.5 million respectively? Unless they do it's completely unfair to say Epstein has the power of a 120 million dollar payroll because the majority of it was invested poorly prior to his arrival. Do you think Manny would fetch 20.5 million a season on the market right now? Texas traded Arod to avoid paying him 18 million.

santo=dorf
09-08-2004, 01:21 PM
Just to set the record straight the argument that is being made is that KW is just as good a GM as Epstein, but Theo's team is far better because they have a larger payroll, correct? IE, KW spends money just as efficiently as Theo yet Theo wins because he has a larger payroll in which to spend, right?

Epstein had 73 million spent on 7 players coming into this season, I'd argue that the remaining 18 guys on his roster are just as good as any 18 guys on our roster. Let's look at who's actually signed players more efficiently. Would you rather have Schilling at 12 million or Garcia at 9? David Ortiz at 5 million or Konerko at 8 million? Meuller at 2.1 million or Jose at over 5? Millar at 3.3 or Carlos at 6.5 million? Foulke is really Epstein's only financially risky signing.

No Jeremy. I say Theo looks like a great GM because of the payroll he gets to play with. I think KW would look like a GREAT GM with a 135 million dollar payroll.
Schilling is a great pitcher, but we can't afford him at 12 million. OUR PAYROLL IS TOO LOW TO AFFORD HIM.
David Ortiz signed a two year extension for 12.5 million. So put him closer to 6.25 million. I would take him over Paulie.
Meuller is a good buy at a 2 year 4.5 million dollar deal. But why are you comparing him to our SS in his final year of a 4-year deal?
Millar is just another Red Sox player taking advantage of the wall in left field. How many guys had their career year last year in Boston? Hell, Millar has only been hitting since July. I'd take Carlos over him considering how much Carlos' D has improved. Millar is a butcher in the outfield.
What about Trot Nixon? Didn't he sign a pretty big 3 year deal? How much do you think guys like Millar, Mueller, and Ortiz benefit from Fenway park and having the protection from expensive hitters that Theo didn't sign (Manny, Varitek, Damon, Nomar (last years case))?

cornball
09-08-2004, 03:36 PM
My apologies. I never saw that reply. Thank you for the link.





Just to set the record straight the argument that is being made is that KW is just as good a GM as Epstein, but Theo's team is far better because they have a larger payroll, correct? IE, KW spends money just as efficiently as Theo yet Theo wins because he has a larger payroll in which to spend, right?

Epstein had 73 million spent on 7 players coming into this season, I'd argue that the remaining 18 guys on his roster are just as good as any 18 guys on our roster. Let's look at who's actually signed players more efficiently. Would you rather have Schilling at 12 million or Garcia at 9? David Ortiz at 5 million or Konerko at 8 million? Meuller at 2.1 million or Jose at over 5? Millar at 3.3 or Carlos at 6.5 million? Foulke is really Epstein's only financially risky signing.

To argue that he's benefitted greatly from the 73 million he had coming in is just atrocious in my opinion. If we're talking about whether a GM benefits or does not benefit from money, the key to the argument is how efficiently the GM signs players. If a GM acquires a player for 7 million a season that is terrible, he's doing a poor job. If he signs Loaiza for 500,000 and he almost wins the Cy Young he's doing well. First of all, talking about how well Dan Duquette allocated money in Boston has NOTHING to do with Epstein. Epstein has spent about 50 million there and how thrifty he was with it should be all that speaks to his efficiency with money, managing a payroll. KW has spent 67 million so we have to look to all 67 million to determine his efficiency.

If people are seriously going to argue that Epstein benefits from the manner in which the 73 million was already spent, there's no enough common ground for this conversation. Pedro and Nomar are free agents this offseason, do you think the market is going to dictate that they continue to make 17.5 and 11.5 million respectively? Unless they do it's completely unfair to say Epstein has the power of a 120 million dollar payroll because the majority of it was invested poorly prior to his arrival. Do you think Manny would fetch 20.5 million a season on the market right now? Texas traded Arod to avoid paying him 18 million.
You also must understand Schilling would never play for the White Sox. Boston besides having a huge advantage in payroll flexiblity, also has the advantage of players wanting to play there. What is meant by this is if the Sox and the BoSox offered the same money...my guess the overwhelming majority of players would choose Boston. It is also my guess the Sox would be below seveal other teams if they had a preference to choose the team.

Why? Because the Sox do not show the willingness year after year to go for it. Plus the odds of winning are reduced with the budget as it is now............ and the list could go on forever.

Frater Perdurabo
09-08-2004, 03:58 PM
I agree with you, especially if you follow/cover/see any of these guys when they're just prospects.

I'll always root for guys like Olivo, Rauch, and Reed, no matter what anyone tells me, but we don't need to revisit the topic weekly, daily, or even monthly for that matter...

Randar, I guess I don't have the same "attachment" (for sheer lack of a better term) as you, although I do understand the way you and many others feel, especially given that scouting is your chosen field. (And I thank you profusely for your ongoing reports -- Minor Observations rapidly is becoming a favorite spot for me!)

Anyway, my opinion is this: while I may have "vestigal" rooting interest in former Sox players (Robin Ventura comes to mind) or minor league prospects, my interest is in the team, the uniform, the colors, etc. The players just happen to be the guys who are wearing the uniform and the colors. Once they exchange them for another uniform and colors, my overall interest in them ceases.

While there are players who I "like" or would "like to have" on the Sox (Beltran, Pujols, etc., of course!), as a fan of the Sox first, when I see such players play I want the Sox players to dominate - and humiliate - them on the field. I may not particularly "like" Carl Everett, for example, but I "want" him to hit for the cycle every game he plays with the Sox. Likewise, while I wish Jeremy Reed the best, and while I would have liked to have him at the top of the Sox order for the next decade, I want Sox pitchers to strike him out each and every time the Mariners play the Sox.

Similarly, when the Sox make a trade, I want KW and the Sox to "win" the deal. So far, he is "winning" the Garcia deal.

But every - and I mean every - "victory" is hollow as long as the Sox fail to win the World Series. Until such time, eventually I will be disappointed at some point during every baseball season. (Of course, I'd rather be disappointed in late October than August!)

:bandance:

OurBitchinMinny
09-08-2004, 05:15 PM
Yes like Hendry, Ryan, or Epstein.
Imagine if williams had budgets the size of those clowns. Not including ryan, but the twins have the best scouting in baseball which makes him look good. Twins fans are livid every all star break when he doesnt make a move that puts them over the top to actually go to a WS instead of losing in round 1. Williams does as good as he can with his hands tied. He didnt hurt maggs or frank. He puts the team in position to win. I dont agree with his managerial hires, especially guillen (i dont remember if he hired manuel, dont think he did) but i think that was more cheap JRs fault.

Wealz
09-08-2004, 05:31 PM
Honestly, what is Williams to be judged on if it's not the won/loss record of the teams he's put together?

Baby Fisk
09-08-2004, 05:41 PM
Honestly, what is Williams to be judged on if it's not the won/loss record of the teams he's put together?2001: 3rd place, 8 back
2002: 2nd place, 13 1/2 back
2003: 2nd place, 4 back
2004: 2nd place???

If this off-season resembles that of last year, I give KW one more year and then I'll join the shaggy horde of Kenny burners. 5 years without a title in this division is more than enough for one GM.

nodiggity59
09-08-2004, 05:48 PM
I just remembered that Epstein signed Byung Yung Kim to a two year $10mil dollar contract last winter.

Now, that didn't work out did it?

If KW made that mistake the Sox would have NO chance at anything. Period. Incidentally, he may have done so w/ Contreras.

The higher payroll allows Epstein to get away with mistakes of similar magnitude. His great moves aren't much better than KWs, but his mistakes are erased by payroll. Look, Koch made similar (I think 13mil) money to that and it absolutely killed our ability to have flexibility for two years.

Oh, and remember not too long ago (like 2 years) when the payroll was around $50mil? Can't make any mistakes then or you're $crewed.

jeremyb1
09-08-2004, 06:28 PM
No Jeremy. I say Theo looks like a great GM because of the payroll he gets to play with.

OK, you're saying "play with" in that sentence which very strongly implies "make moves with". As I said that's not true since he's had nearly 73 million in immovable playroll in his first two seasons on the job. KW has had more flexibility in adding new players to his clubs financially than Epstein.

I think KW would look like a GREAT GM with a 135 million dollar payroll. Schilling is a great pitcher, but we can't afford him at 12 million. OUR PAYROLL IS TOO LOW TO AFFORD HIM.

I'm sorry that's just not true on any level. If we can afford to pay Garcia and Contreras 15 million we can pay Schilling 12. If we can afford to pay Maggs 14 in one season we can afford to pay Schilling 12.

David Ortiz signed a two year extension for 12.5 million. So put him closer to 6.25 million. I would take him over Paulie.
Meuller is a good buy at a 2 year 4.5 million dollar deal. But why are you comparing him to our SS in his final year of a 4-year deal?

Well who does he favor more comparably to on our roster then? I can think of about two good low cost signings KW has made since he was here, Gordon and Loaiza. Epstein signed Mueller, Millar, and Ortiz in his first season!

Millar is just another Red Sox player taking advantage of the wall in left field. How many guys had their career year last year in Boston? Hell, Millar has only been hitting since July. I'd take Carlos over him considering how much Carlos' D has improved. Millar is a butcher in the outfield.

Where do you come up with some of this stuff? It looks so hard like you're forming your conclusion first and then coming up with any possible reason to justify it no matter whether there are any facts to support it or whether it's a logical argument. Millar has only been hitting since July? First of all since when do we punish players if they're streaky hitters? People always look at overall stats at the end of the season, they don't spend time obsessing over month to month splits. I've never seen a "Rowand sucks because he only got hot in July" post on this board from you or anyone else. Furthermore, you mean he's only been hitting since July THIS SEASON I guess since there is the matter of the FIVE OTHER SEASONS in Millar's career.

Your "taking advantage of the monster" argument might have some validity if not for the fact that Millar's home road splits were identical in more at bats last season and the fact that we can account for his performance at Fenway pretty easily by using park effects. It's not as though it's this huge enigma what effect playing in Fenway will have on his numbers. It's not as though perhaps he's a .600 OPS hitter away and a 1.000 hitter at home. No park effects are that strong and we're not talking about Coors here either.

What about Trot Nixon? Didn't he sign a pretty big 3 year deal? How much do you think guys like Millar, Mueller, and Ortiz benefit from Fenway park and having the protection from expensive hitters that Theo didn't sign (Manny, Varitek, Damon, Nomar (last years case))?

So basically your argument is then that it isn't possible for Epstein to be a good GM because any good hitter he signs is only going to be benefitting from the park and the rest of the lineup? Huh?

jeremyb1
09-08-2004, 06:30 PM
I just remembered that Epstein signed Byung Yung Kim to a two year $10mil dollar contract last winter.

Now, that didn't work out did it?

Kim was injured all season. I don't get it. Is it KW's fault that Thomas and Maggs went down?

Randar68
09-08-2004, 06:47 PM
Is it KW's fault that Thomas and Maggs went down?
Certainly doesn't stop Wealz from claiming so.

MRKARNO
09-08-2004, 07:26 PM
Part of the issue is that the Red Sox have this aura around them and players are going to sign with them cheaper than they would because of it. They could get any player they want to go to Boston, while I dont really think we could on the South Side. The Red Sox' higher payroll to begin with has led to more confidence by the players that they'd be on a winner which in turn leads to them willing to sign for less. This clearly puts them at an advantage and less desirable team like the White Sox at a disadvantage, so even without the payroll discrepency, Kenny WIlliams is starting in the hole.

balke
09-08-2004, 08:03 PM
Part of the issue is that the Red Sox have this aura around them and players are going to sign with them cheaper than they would because of it. They could get any player they want to go to Boston, while I dont really think we could on the South Side. The Red Sox' higher payroll to begin with has led to more confidence by the players that they'd be on a winner which in turn leads to them willing to sign for less. This clearly puts them at an advantage and less desirable team like the White Sox at a disadvantage, so even without the payroll discrepency, Kenny WIlliams is starting in the hole.
Players look at marketablity when signing with teams as well. You can be in just about any part of America and find a Red Sox, Flub, or Yankme hat. They have huge fan bases. Signing for 8 mil with the Red Sox means more money from merch, more appearances on ESPN, more interviews, bigger ego. Players that are all-star calibur like being the face of the team, or part of a winning organization, or famous franchise, because it fattens their overall payroll/fame. This is why many thought Maggs was gone regardless of the White Sox checkbook. White Sox fans, in my life experience (and other posts on this board), are a rare breed outside of Chicago. Maggs was still splitting face time with Frank, and we aren't winning :(:

santo=dorf
09-08-2004, 08:39 PM
OK, you're saying "play with" in that sentence which very strongly implies "make moves with". As I said that's not true since he's had nearly 73 million in immovable playroll in his first two seasons on the job. KW has had more flexibility in adding new players to his clubs financially than Epstein.Boston's payrolls near 135 million. He had 7 players under contract for 73 million, which means he had 62 million to put about 2/3 of a teams together.
What part don't you understand that KW has 62 million to put an ENTIRE TEAM TOGETHER??? Don't you think Kenny would like to have 7 quality players signed and then get the green light from JR to spend 62 million?

I'm sorry that's just not true on any level. If we can afford to pay Garcia and Contreras 15 million we can pay Schilling 12. If we can afford to pay Maggs 14 in one season we can afford to pay Schilling 12. Garcia +Contreras=2 pitchers
Schilling=1 pitcher
Someone posted Garcia's similar numbers to Schilling's in a previous thread, and Contreras has shown a lot signs of being a good pitcher.
It's also silly to think that we CAN afford Maggs at 14 million with these two pitchers, depite the fact we tried trading him in the offseason, and I'm willing to bet he won't come back here next year because we won't give him 14 per. We can't afford it

Well who does he favor more comparably to on our roster then? I can think of about two good low cost signings KW has made since he was here, Gordon and Loaiza. Epstein signed Mueller, Millar, and Ortiz in his first season!And KW sign those two PITCHERS for much less than what Theo paid for those 3 batters he signed, whom all play in a hitter's park, and all played in a lineup that had Manny Ramirez, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Varitek, and Johnny Damon in the order. Poor Theo for being stuck with those guys, it doesn't help out any of his new signees.

Where do you come up with some of this stuff? It looks so hard like you're forming your conclusion first and then coming up with any possible reason to justify it no matter whether there are any facts to support it or whether it's a logical argument. Millar has only been hitting since July? First of all since when do we punish players if they're streaky hitters? People always look at overall stats at the end of the season, they don't spend time obsessing over month to month splits. I've never seen a "Rowand sucks because he only got hot in July" post on this board from you or anyone else. Furthermore, you mean he's only been hitting since July THIS SEASON I guess since there is the matter of the FIVE OTHER SEASONS in Millar's career.

Your "taking advantage of the monster" argument might have some validity if not for the fact that Millar's home road splits were identical in more at bats last season and the fact that we can account for his performance at Fenway pretty easily by using park effects. It's not as though it's this huge enigma what effect playing in Fenway will have on his numbers. It's not as though perhaps he's a .600 OPS hitter away and a 1.000 hitter at home. No park effects are that strong and we're not talking about Coors here either.How could you possibly take CLee over Millar?I bet you wouldn't have taken Millar over CLee at any point in the season before Millar actually started showin signs of life. I don't see anything too special in Millar's career stats. Even with his career year last year, he has still never hit more than 30 homers or had 100 RBI's in a single season.
As for Rowand, he hit .375 in June, .337 in July, .352 in August. Just to let you know.


So basically your argument is then that it isn't possible for Epstein to be a good GM because any good hitter he signs is only going to be benefitting from the park and the rest of the lineup? Huh?They can be could hitters but I'm still confusing as to why you took some Red Sox players over some of our Sox hitters. You also try to make it seem that Theo was in a much tougher position because he had "immovable" payroll going to All-Star players. Of those players you listed, I would say only Manny would be "immovable" as shown from the fact that noone claim him off of waivers this past offseason. Nomar was almost traded in the offseason, and was later traded during the season. What kind of numbers do you think CLee would put up if he hit in Fenway (he had great numbers in that series against the Red Sox) and played in a lineup that had Manny, Nomar and Damon hitting in front of him?

santo=dorf
09-08-2004, 08:42 PM
Kim was injured all season. He pitched at the major league level and was so crappy he was sent to Pawtuckett. Was he in the same situation as Danny Wrong this year? I was not aware of Kim being injured all year.

nodiggity59
09-08-2004, 08:58 PM
He pitched at the major league level and was so crappy he was sent to Pawtuckett. Was he in the same situation as Danny Wrong this year? I was not aware of Kim being injured all year.
Kim practically IS a Danny Wrong, except for some reason Theo thought he was worth 10mil for 2 years, and yes they're both injured. The bottom line is, Theo can get away with anything cause money talks. Their payroll is TWICE ours.

Let me repeat, their payroll is twice that of ours. That is the biggest reason they are better. All other factors are minimal in the face of one team having twice as much breathing room for mistakes in player pesonnel. Every single mistake KW has made has HAUNTED the Sox b/c of their lower payroll.

With Epstein (Kim, not having a closer last year, Suppan being a waste of a trade, alienating Nomar, no team speed), his mistakes are okay b/c money ensures he has a greater base talent to start with and it also makes it easier for him to acquire new players to correct those mistakes.

santo=dorf
09-08-2004, 10:22 PM
With Epstein (Kim, not having a closer last year, Suppan being a waste of a trade, alienating Nomar, no team speed), his mistakes are okay b/c money ensures he has a greater base talent to start with and it also makes it easier for him to acquire new players to correct those mistakes.Terry Adams, Curtis Leskanic, and Mike Myers haven't been that special for Boston this year either.

Flight #24
09-08-2004, 11:49 PM
I'm sorry that's just not true on any level. If we can afford to pay Garcia and Contreras 15 million we can pay Schilling 12. If we can afford to pay Maggs 14 in one season we can afford to pay Schilling 12. Not if you can't trade for him because he's got a no-trade. Or did I miss the part where Schilling was signed by Boston as an FA?:?:



So basically your argument is then that it isn't possible for Epstein to be a good GM because any good hitter he signs is only going to be benefitting from the park and the rest of the lineup? Huh?
I think Epstein looks like a better GM because he started with a hugely better talent base (which helps him in terms of production and in terms of recruiting the Schillings/A-Rods to accept trades to Boston). He's also got a much greater payroll to operate with. The combination is a really big advantage

row18
09-09-2004, 12:01 AM
What's up with the flub lovin from people on the page? You'd think from all the KW "mishaps" that are pointed out, someone would point out Jim Hendry and his failures to find a 3Bman before Ramirez. Like bringing the flubs the Strikeout leader of the Majors to fill in at 3rd (Jose Hernandez), in the midst of a pennant chase.

Hendry struck gold w/ Pitt, when none wanted to deal with the attitude of Ramirez. Big whoop. get off his jock, or start wearin blue. And why don't you ride Epstein for not closing the A-rod deal, or getting more out of the cubs for Garciaparra while you're at it?
Thank you,
I'm buying what are you drinkin?

Fungo
09-09-2004, 09:28 AM
For the record, Reed was 0-1 last night in a PH role. Ground out to SS.

SOXSINCE'70
09-09-2004, 01:16 PM
Not if you can't trade for him because he's got a no-trade. Or did I miss the part where Schilling was signed by Boston as an FA?:?:
Schilling was traded to the Red Sawx (the D-Backs got Shea Hillenbrand and a couple of minor leaguers).After the trade,Schilling signed an extension.At least that's what I remember.And no Sox fan in their right mind should even think about Schilling pitching on the South Side.After his run in with Reinsdork during the talks before the '94 strike,Schilling must love the White Sox as much as someone loves a root canal.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

santo=dorf
09-09-2004, 01:20 PM
Schilling was traded to the Red Sawx (the D-Backs got Shea Hillenbrand and a couple of minor leaguers).After the trade,Schilling signed an extension.At least that's what I remember.
Hillebrand was traded to the D'Backs last year for Kim. Theo made out like a bandit there.

jeremyb1
09-09-2004, 01:54 PM
Boston's payrolls near 135 million. He had 7 players under contract for 73 million, which means he had 62 million to put about 2/3 of a teams together.
What part don't you understand that KW has 62 million to put an ENTIRE TEAM TOGETHER??? Don't you think Kenny would like to have 7 quality players signed and then get the green light from JR to spend 62 million?

The Red Sox payroll is 129 million so the figure is 56 million. How many players were already signed is not the issue here because we're talking about how much money each GM had to sign players himself. You said Epstein had 130 million to play with and that's completely false. So if you misspoke fine I understand, otherwise your statement was incorrect.

Garcia +Contreras=2 pitchers
Schilling=1 pitcher
Someone posted Garcia's similar numbers to Schilling's in a previous thread, and Contreras has shown a lot signs of being a good pitcher.
It's also silly to think that we CAN afford Maggs at 14 million with these two pitchers, depite the fact we tried trading him in the offseason, and I'm willing to bet he won't come back here next year because we won't give him 14 per. We can't afford it

Garcia's similar numbers to Schilling?! Were they fake?! One guy has a career 3.38 ERA and 4.3 K/BB ratio the other is 3.94 and 2.2 respectively. Garcia and Contreras are two pitchers and I'm confident you could sign an additional pitcher with the 3 million leftover (15 mil - 12) that would equal a combo better than Garcia and Contreras (such as Arroyo, another Epstein move who has a 4.2 ERA for the minimum). I wasn't saying we should afford Maggs with our current contract just that we could have Schilling too or players like Schilling at least if we wanted to acquire them.

And KW sign those two PITCHERS for much less than what Theo paid for those 3 batters he signed, whom all play in a hitter's park, and all played in a lineup that had Manny Ramirez, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Varitek, and Johnny Damon in the order. Poor Theo for being stuck with those guys, it doesn't help out any of his new signees.

Well position players are always going to cost more to sign than pitchers because there's less variance in there performance and there are fewer fring position players floating around. I don't think paying Gordon 1 million was a better signing for the value than Meuller who got 2.2 million and won the batting title at 3B. That's not the point though, the point is how often these types of moves are made because any GM is going to get lucky with these types of moves sometime. KW has signed Gordon and Loaiza in four seasons. Epstein has acquired Millar, Ortiz, Meuller, Arroyo, and Bellhorn in two seasons. So five great signings in two seasons or 2 in four seasons? It's clear to me that Epstein is thriftier and makes more economically efficient moves.

How could you possibly take CLee over Millar?I bet you wouldn't have taken Millar over CLee at any point in the season before Millar actually started showin signs of life. I don't see anything too special in Millar's career stats. Even with his career year last year, he has still never hit more than 30 homers or had 100 RBI's in a single season.
As for Rowand, he hit .375 in June, .337 in July, .352 in August. Just to let you know.

Haha. Ok, we'll modify July to June for Rowand. The point remains the same, no one cares when players hit. There are tons of streaky MLB hitters and that's perfectly accepted. As for CLee vs. Millar, it's simple: Millar puts up comperable numbers at half the salary. If I'm a GM I want that extra 3 million to upgrade the pen, the catching, etc. Millar doesn't hit home runs because he's not that type of player. He hits doubles, hits for average, and walks. His value is different that CLee's but not inferior for that reason.


They can be could hitters but I'm still confusing as to why you took some Red Sox players over some of our Sox hitters. You also try to make it seem that Theo was in a much tougher position because he had "immovable" payroll going to All-Star players. Of those players you listed, I would say only Manny would be "immovable" as shown from the fact that noone claim him off of waivers this past offseason. Nomar was almost traded in the offseason, and was later traded during the season. What kind of numbers do you think CLee would put up if he hit in Fenway (he had great numbers in that series against the Red Sox) and played in a lineup that had Manny, Nomar and Damon hitting in front of him?

You're right with Nomar. He wasn't immovable but because he only had a year left on his contract. I really don't think you'd find a taker on Pedro's 17.5 million. Starting pitchers just aren't getting that type of money and Pedro has health concerns. If he was in the form of several years, teams would jump at that just not now.

I'm not saying that Theo is hindered by having those players signed necessarily because the payroll is still 130 million. BUT it is inaccurate to say he has 130 million at his disposal because it was spent before him and not particularly well in some cases. As a GM with a 130 million payroll he is in a poor situation. Would KW have a better team that he does now in the same situation? Probably but I'm convinced he wouldn't have a team nearly as good as the one Epstein has put together because I think the two GMs track records strongly indicate that Epstein is much more shrewd when it comes to managing a payroll.

santo=dorf
09-10-2004, 12:25 AM
Reed 0-4 tonight. It speaks volumes of Williams' ability of drafting quality players.

balke
09-10-2004, 02:45 AM
Reed 0-4 tonight. It speaks volumes of Williams' ability of drafting quality players.
O-4 you say? WHAT A BUM! I hope a year from now people can look back and go "Jeremy who?" Although he'd be so unimportant, I'd forget to rub it in to KW bashers :(

Side Note: no real ill-will meant towards Jeremy. Good luck mang!

DrCrawdad
09-10-2004, 10:18 AM
0-4? Hey, Jeremy...

http://www.oneposter.com/UserData/Poster/Poster_8238.jpg

:)

Hangar18
09-10-2004, 10:22 AM
0-4? Hey, Jeremy...

http://www.oneposter.com/UserData/Poster/Poster_8238.jpg

:)
Crawdaddy .............. thats excellent heh heh heh heh
thanks again for the tickets

Flight #24
09-10-2004, 02:31 PM
I wasn't saying we should afford Maggs with our current contract just that we could have Schilling too or players like Schilling at least if we wanted to acquire them.
I believe we've had this argument before, but I just dont' believe there are guys liek that available on any sort of a regular basis, and if/when they are available they go for a lot more than you seem to think. Bartolo Colon is the closest recent example, and he's a lot closer to Freddy Garcia caliber than Curt Schilling caliber. The only reason that those types of palyers get traded is because they have albatross-like contracts (ala Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson) or because they have a say in where they play (Schilling). Epstein was able to acquire Schiling when almost no one else could acquire him or a similar player. Why - because he's got a big payroll, he's got a pretty awesome (and expensive) established core, and he's got the BoSox "mystique" working for him.



I'm not saying that Theo is hindered by having those players signed necessarily because the payroll is still 130 million. BUT it is inaccurate to say he has 130 million at his disposal because it was spent before him and not particularly well in some cases. As a GM with a 130 million payroll he is in a poor situation. Would KW have a better team that he does now in the same situation? Probably but I'm convinced he wouldn't have a team nearly as good as the one Epstein has put together because I think the two GMs track records strongly indicate that Epstein is much more shrewd when it comes to managing a payroll.
Poor Theo, he has to live with having Manny, Pedro, Nomar (to start the year), and only having $10mil less left over to "play with" as the White Sox do for their whole team.....

Poor compared to the Yankees, maybe. But Poor compared to almost anyone else in baseball? No. It's a lot easier to be "shrewd" when managing a $130mil payroll (witthe capability to bump it higher) than it is when managing a $65mil payroll.

doublem23
09-10-2004, 02:34 PM
0-4? Hey, Jeremy...

http://www.oneposter.com/UserData/Poster/Poster_8238.jpg

:)
This has to be the only good post in this mess of a thread. I love it.

:supernana:

ma-gaga
09-10-2004, 03:56 PM
The Red Sox payroll is 129 million so the figure is 56 million. How many players were already signed is not the issue here because we're talking about how much money each GM had to sign players himself.
...
I'm not saying that Theo is hindered by having those players signed necessarily because the payroll is still 130 million. BUT it is inaccurate to say he has 130 million at his disposal because it was spent before him
...
I think the two GMs track records strongly indicate that Epstein is much more shrewd when it comes to managing a payroll.
I think I see what you are saying... But, Epstein didn't have to sign a #1 pitcher, or a SS, or a LF, or a Catcher, or a... geeze. (Who did they have signed to all that money? Manny, Nomar and Pedro take up something like $54MM, so who else did they have signed?)

I mean, I see WHAT you are saying, and I think you have a point, but I don't know if you are arguing it correctly. What I'm saying is that you can use the same arguments FOR KW as well. He had Magglio signed before this season, he had Buerhle locked up before this season, I think you need to look at each transaction these two have made over the last two years to get a good handle on which have worked and which haven't.

Theo has obviously made some astute signings, especially David Ortiz, but KW traded for Colon. Epstein has made some mistakes as well, but so has KW. I think the two are fairly close in terms of effectiveness per dollar spent. We should find Pappas's old cost per marginal wins table. Boston made it to the ALCS last year, but they HAVE a $120+ MM payroll. That has to be part of the equation.

Or just take the players that each GM has acquired and look at their Win Shares per dollar or something like that, and subtract what they've traded away to date. Maybe KW is close now, but if J.Reed and M.Olivo turn into all-stars, then he drops.

:gulp: I have the ideas, just not the motivation to follow thru on defending someone elses arguments.

balke
09-10-2004, 04:00 PM
This has to be the only good post in this mess of a thread. I love it.

:supernana:

Seconded, and I posted in this thread :cool:

jeremyb1
09-10-2004, 07:10 PM
I believe we've had this argument before, but I just dont' believe there are guys liek that available on any sort of a regular basis, and if/when they are available they go for a lot more than you seem to think. Bartolo Colon is the closest recent example, and he's a lot closer to Freddy Garcia caliber than Curt Schilling caliber. The only reason that those types of palyers get traded is because they have albatross-like contracts (ala Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson) or because they have a say in where they play (Schilling). Epstein was able to acquire Schiling when almost no one else could acquire him or a similar player. Why - because he's got a big payroll, he's got a pretty awesome (and expensive) established core, and he's got the BoSox "mystique" working for him.

I agree you're right that they're not available often. It's one of many examples of good values that can be found in the market. Seperate from the Boston deal, the DBacks obviously did a great job with Schilling's extension (or the Phillies, I'm not positive who his current deal was signed with). So it wasn't only the Red Sox that could acquire Schilling at such a good price but also the DBacks and possibly the Phils. Also, a big payroll isn't necessarily enough to make large acquisitions. Teams like the Dodgers under Malone certainly managed payroll poorly enough in the past to lack the money to take on large salaries.

Poor Theo, he has to live with having Manny, Pedro, Nomar (to start the year), and only having $10mil less left over to "play with" as the White Sox do for their whole team.....

Poor compared to the Yankees, maybe. But Poor compared to almost anyone else in baseball? No. It's a lot easier to be "shrewd" when managing a $130mil payroll (witthe capability to bump it higher) than it is when managing a $65mil payroll.

Haha. You do realize that's about the fifth time that same sarcastic comment has been made in these two threads. In THE SEGMENT OF MY POST YOU'RE QUOTING I say "I'm not saying that Theo is hindered by having those players signed necessarily because the payroll is still 130 million." So if you're going to make sarcastic comments Flight, I'd appreciate it if they're actually somehow related to what I'm writing.

My position remains that while Epstein is not hindered by his large payroll, it is completely unfair and illegitimate to say HE (EPSTEIN) has a 130 dollar payroll to play around with when THEO EPSTEIN HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO ALLOCATE THE MAJORITY OF THE TEAM'S 130 MILLION PAYROLL. Epstein doesn't have 130 million to spend if he doesn't get to choose how most of it is spent. I think that's irrefutable and most are choosing not to refute it or address it.

It's easier to be shrewd when managing a 130 million payroll? Huh? It's not a complicated concept flight. If you sign a guy who performs significantly better than similar players with his salary you're making shrewd moves. Maybe sometimes couldn't make the shrewd move of signing Schilling because he makes 12 million but these are ussually smaller deals. Are you saying most teams couldn't pay a few million dollars to Ortiz, Meuller, or Millar?

Flight #24
09-10-2004, 11:03 PM
I agree you're right that they're not available often. It's one of many examples of good values that can be found in the market. Seperate from the Boston deal, the DBacks obviously did a great job with Schilling's extension (or the Phillies, I'm not positive who his current deal was signed with). So it wasn't only the Red Sox that could acquire Schilling at such a good price but also the DBacks and possibly the Phils. Also, a big payroll isn't necessarily enough to make large acquisitions. Teams like the Dodgers under Malone certainly managed payroll poorly enough in the past to lack the money to take on large salaries.Convers doesn't necessarily prove the rule. Just because come teams couldn't manage a large payroll well doesn't mean that it isn't easier to run a team with a large payroll. You get all kinds of advantages, not just those from signing guys that take large $$$(i.e. the ancillary stuff like getting Schilling-like guys because you have big money guys signed). My point still stands. It's very rare for players like that to be available, and in Schilling's case, not many other teams could go get him. IIRC, he selected Arizona to be traded to from Philly, and Boston from Arizona.



Haha. You do realize that's about the fifth time that same sarcastic comment has been made in these two threads. In THE SEGMENT OF MY POST YOU'RE QUOTING I say "I'm not saying that Theo is hindered by having those players signed necessarily because the payroll is still 130 million." So if you're going to make sarcastic comments Flight, I'd appreciate it if they're actually somehow related to what I'm writing.Yeah, I couldn't resist. But your comment that "As a GM of a 130 mil team he's in a poor position" was just ludicrous. He may be in a poor position relative to the Yanks, but relative to juse about any other team, he's in a GREAT position.

My position remains that while Epstein is not hindered by his large payroll, it is completely unfair and illegitimate to say HE (EPSTEIN) has a 130 dollar payroll to play around with when THEO EPSTEIN HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO ALLOCATE THE MAJORITY OF THE TEAM'S 130 MILLION PAYROLL. Epstein doesn't have 130 million to spend if he doesn't get to choose how most of it is spent. I think that's irrefutable and most are choosing not to refute it or address it.

It's easier to be shrewd when managing a 130 million payroll? Huh? It's not a complicated concept flight. If you sign a guy who performs significantly better than similar players with his salary you're making shrewd moves. Maybe sometimes couldn't make the shrewd move of signing Schilling because he makes 12 million but these are ussually smaller deals. Are you saying most teams couldn't pay a few million dollars to Ortiz, Meuller, or Millar?
I'm still not sure what the fascination is with Millar. His road OPS is .698 this year, last year is was a nice, but not spectacular .812. He's something of a Fenway creation, which is good for Epstein, but doesn't make him worth $3mil to other teams. As for the others, they're good signings, but KW has signed or traded for his own good guys: Loaiza, Marte, Gordon, Uribe (6th in OPS in MLB 2B), Olivo. Epstein's had his own mishaps with trades or signings as well. Off the top of my head: Kim, Timlin, Adams, John Burkett. But none of those hamstring him because he can go out and try again if the guy flops, whereas KW cannot.

I'd say the 2 would be fairly similar given similar resource bases. It's all speculation, but seems to me that they've both had their good and bad moves, but that the basic fact of being the Boston Red Sox has enabled Theo to overcome his bad moves and leverage his good moves to better results.