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bc2k
09-02-2004, 06:59 PM
I do not understand all the Borchard bashing over the past month. The sum of all this bashing makes me believe that some posters think Borchard's month-long failures are the reason why the Sox won't win the division.

Maybe I'm more tolerant of Borchard because I haven't seen much of Borchard's daily failures; I stopped watching the Sox when I conceded we weren't going to the playoffs. But that is part of my point: The team, in my opinion, was done for by the time Bonus Baby touched Bossard's field. So Borchard's failures don't really bother me; I knew he nor his team were going to win the division.

2 questions for all the Borchard bashers: 1) Are you bashing him so fiercely because you thought he would come close to replacing Ordonez's numbers and help this team to the playoffs? That's a ridiculous expectation of a man who hasn't even succeeded in AAA. 2) Why bash an underachieving minor leaguer, a man who's only been on the team a month, a man with little expectations when you look at his baseball performances and not his draft status or signing bonus, when you have better alternatives on the team worthy of being bashed.

For example, Joe Crede. Crede is the one coming off what some would consider a good second-half major league-level performance. Crede is the one who has been with the team the whole season, contributing NOTHING! Surely those who bash Borchard realize Joe Crede is a bigger reason for the sinking of Lake Michigan's version of Edmund Fitzgerald.

JB98
09-02-2004, 07:14 PM
I do not understand all the Borchard bashing over the past month. The sum of all this bashing makes me believe that some posters think Borchard's month-long failures are the reason why the Sox won't win the division.

Maybe I'm more tolerant of Borchard because I haven't seen much of Borchard's daily failures; I stopped watching the Sox when I conceded we weren't going to the playoffs. But that is part of my point: The team, in my opinion, was done for by the time Bonus Baby touched Bossard's field. So Borchard's failures don't really bother me; I knew he nor his team were going to win the division.

2 questions for all the Borchard bashers: 1) Are you bashing him so fiercely because you thought he would come close to replacing Ordonez's numbers and help this team to the playoffs? That's a ridiculous expectation of a man who hasn't even succeeded in AAA. 2) Why bash an underachieving minor leaguer, a man who's only been on the team a month, a man with little expectations when you look at his baseball performances and not his draft status or signing bonus, when you have better alternatives on the team worthy of being bashed.

For example, Joe Crede. Crede is the one coming off what some would consider a good second-half major league-level performance. Crede is the one who has been with the team the whole season, contributing NOTHING! Surely those who bash Borchard realize Joe Crede is a bigger reason for the sinking of Lake Michigan's version of Edmund Fitzgerald.

Crede is having a poor year, but at least he has 16 HR and 54 RBIs. Borchard is batting .149. Big difference.

Now, Borchard hasn't had near the opportunities that Crede has, but he has shown little so far. I, for one, hope Borchard plays rightfield every game the rest of the season. This is his opportunity to show what he can do, and he better seize it. In my personal opinion, he will never make it, but we'll have to wait and see. I'm terrified that KW will go into next season thinking Borchard is our everyday RF. That would be a disaster.

I don't blame Borchard for the team's failure this year. In fact, none of it is his fault. It's just very frustrating to see a player who has come with so much hype fail so miserably.

beckett21
09-02-2004, 07:31 PM
I do not understand all the Borchard bashing over the past month. The sum of all this bashing makes me believe that some posters think Borchard's month-long failures are the reason why the Sox won't win the division.

Maybe I'm more tolerant of Borchard because I haven't seen much of Borchard's daily failures; I stopped watching the Sox when I conceded we weren't going to the playoffs. But that is part of my point: The team, in my opinion, was done for by the time Bonus Baby touched Bossard's field. So Borchard's failures don't really bother me; I knew he nor his team were going to win the division.

2 questions for all the Borchard bashers: 1) Are you bashing him so fiercely because you thought he would come close to replacing Ordonez's numbers and help this team to the playoffs? That's a ridiculous expectation of a man who hasn't even succeeded in AAA. 2) Why bash an underachieving minor leaguer, a man who's only been on the team a month, a man with little expectations when you look at his baseball performances and not his draft status or signing bonus, when you have better alternatives on the team worthy of being bashed.
Agreed.

whitesoxwilkes
09-02-2004, 07:33 PM
I've wanted to see Borchard do well for 3 years now...and the sad fact is that while he's got plenty of power, he obviously doesn't have the eye and mind necessary to be a major league hitter. I knew he wouldn't replace Ordonez's numbers, but I thought he'd at least be good for a .220 or .230 average.

I'm ssang, and I'm still an IDIOT!
09-02-2004, 07:54 PM
I do not understand all the Borchard bashing over the past month. The sum of all this bashing makes me believe that some posters think Borchard's month-long failures are the reason why the Sox won't win the division.

Maybe I'm more tolerant of Borchard because I haven't seen much of Borchard's daily failures; I stopped watching the Sox when I conceded we weren't going to the playoffs. But that is part of my point: The team, in my opinion, was done for by the time Bonus Baby touched Bossard's field. So Borchard's failures don't really bother me; I knew he nor his team were going to win the division.

2 questions for all the Borchard bashers: 1) Are you bashing him so fiercely because you thought he would come close to replacing Ordonez's numbers and help this team to the playoffs? That's a ridiculous expectation of a man who hasn't even succeeded in AAA. 2) Why bash an underachieving minor leaguer, a man who's only been on the team a month, a man with little expectations when you look at his baseball performances and not his draft status or signing bonus, when you have better alternatives on the team worthy of being bashed.

For example, Joe Crede. Crede is the one coming off what some would consider a good second-half major league-level performance. Crede is the one who has been with the team the whole season, contributing NOTHING! Surely those who bash Borchard realize Joe Crede is a bigger reason for the sinking of Lake Michigan's version of Edmund Fitzgerald.
I certainly do not blame this season's failure on Borchard. Not at all. I place the blame on 2 things: First and foremost, the injuries to Frank and Maggs. With those two healthy the Sox would be neck and neck with the Twins but we wouldn't have much hope for a world series appearance due to the overall holes in the White Sox roster. But certainly we'd at least have playoff aspirations. And second, I place blame on Kenny Williams for not beiing able to fix those holes on this roster....IN FOUR YEARS! Not to mention, KW is an ego-maniac whom I have issues with as an actual person.

As far is the hatred towards Borchard goes, I believe the reason everyone is hating on him is because of the way he actually looks at the plate. Just simply watch Joe's at-bats. I mean being called up and struggling (big time) early in your career is one thing. But to struggle and look absolutley cluless is another. I hate to say it but Borchard looks like your classic MLB bust. Low average, low On base %, lack of fundementals, and TONS of strikeouts. The thing that really scares me is that even if he maximizes his potential (and he is a LONG way from ever doing that) Joe is the type of player that it is difficult to CONSISTENTLY win with. All or nothing type players, if they are cold, can kill any rally. And they seem to struggle in the playoffs against good pitching (pitchers that don't let you jack HR's with meat balls over the heart of the plate). Jim Thome is the only one I can think of that has a lot of success being this type of hitter. But he also has great patience, takes a lot of walks, and is super cluth. Basically the antihesis of Borchard.

Folks, I hope I'm wrong about all of this. I will eat crow and enjoy it at the same time if Joe Borchard turns into a perennial all-star the Sox win with this type of lineup!

As far as Joe Crede is concerned. I CANNOT STAND HIM!!! I hope he decides to retire in the off-season, or better yet, gets traded so he can suck for another MLB ballclub, severly weakining their lineup. Damn, I WISH KW would have traded Crede instead.

P.S. Was it Reed or Olivo the Mariners wanted Crede instead of ?? If it was Reed I'm pissed cause at least we got Ben Davis in return for Olivo. Whatever, either way I wish it was Crede traded.

Sorry for the rant. I needed to vent. It's been a while.

Parrothead
09-02-2004, 08:59 PM
Crede is having a poor year, but at least he has 16 HR and 54 RBIs. Borchard is batting .149. Big difference.

Now, Borchard hasn't had near the opportunities that Crede has, but he has shown little so far. I, for one, hope Borchard plays rightfield every game the rest of the season. This is his opportunity to show what he can do, and he better seize it. In my personal opinion, he will never make it, but we'll have to wait and see. I'm terrified that KW will go into next season thinking Borchard is our everyday RF. That would be a disaster.

I don't blame Borchard for the team's failure this year. In fact, none of it is his fault. It's just very frustrating to see a player who has come with so much hype fail so miserably.
Well said.:mad:

RKMeibalane
09-02-2004, 11:05 PM
This is unbeliveable. The same man who has taken upon himself to criticize Frank Thomas on numerous occasions wants to know why people are down on a player who can't even stay above the .150-mark. Honestly, bc2k, I would have thought you had better things to do than defend Joe Borchard.

To answer your question though, I don't think anyone here expected Borchard to replace Ordonez' production. However, people did expect adequate production from Joe. One mammoth home run isn't going to change the fact that Borchard has sucked since the Sox called him up earlier this summer. Add that to the fact that Borchard has had three seasons to prove himself to Sox brass, and he has yet to even post respectable numbers.

Borchard is a bust. I know it. You know it. The rest of this board knows it. I only wish that Kenny Williams knew it.

mdep524
09-02-2004, 11:23 PM
Borchard is a bust. I know it. You know it. The rest of this board knows it. I only wish that Kenny Williams knew it.
He knows it. The problem is KW is as stubborn as Jerry Krause, and has a hard time admitting mistakes. To his credit, he did dump Koch after a season and a half of crap.

About Borchard, I wanted very badly for him to succeed. But it clearly not going to happen. The at bat he had against Dotel in the 9th innning today is one of the worst I have ever seen.

DrCrawdad
09-02-2004, 11:26 PM
This is unbeliveable. The same man who has taken upon himself to criticize Frank Thomas on numerous occasions wants to know why people are down on a player who can't even stay above the .150-mark. Honestly, bc2k, I would have thought you had better things to do than defend Joe Borchard.

To answer your question though, I don't think anyone here expected Borchard to replace Ordonez' production. However, people did expect adequate production from Joe. One mammoth home run isn't going to change the fact that Borchard has sucked since the Sox called him up earlier this summer. Add that to the fact that Borchard has had three seasons to prove himself to Sox brass, and he has yet to even post respectable numbers.

Borchard is a bust. I know it. You know it. The rest of this board knows it. I only wish that Kenny Williams knew it.

The big play Wednesday from Borchard was a sacrifice bunt. Hey, I'm glad the big guy can bunt successfully, but Borchard has shown very very little this month.

In addition to the woeful lack of hitting, I've been disappointed by Joe's outfield play. From what I've seen so far this year Joe is no better and perhaps a worse outfielder than Magglio.

I'm sure the Sox were hoping that Joe would come up and show everyone that he's a worthy replacement for Magglio. At this point all I can say is that if Borchard is the replacement for Magglio, Joe you had better get those earplugs from Samme.

chisox06
09-02-2004, 11:37 PM
I do not understand all the Borchard bashing over the past month. The sum of all this bashing makes me believe that some posters think Borchard's month-long failures are the reason why the Sox won't win the division. I honestly dont think any of us believe that. Borchard isnt even close to being a major league hitter. Even in fastball counts, he still gets blown away, the guy is terrible, bottom line

Maybe I'm more tolerant of Borchard because I haven't seen much of Borchard's daily failures; I stopped watching the Sox when I conceded we weren't going to the playoffs. But that is part of my point: The team, in my opinion, was done for by the time Bonus Baby touched Bossard's field. So Borchard's failures don't really bother me; I knew he nor his team were going to win the division. I dont understand the importance of that. Plus your defending a player when you admit that you havent consitantly watched him? Kind of hard to take your opinion seriously. The fact that this team has thrown in the towel is exactly why Borchard/Diaz/Munoz/Burke etc. are being given more playing time, thats how it works, it's an early spring training. In Borchards case, the franchise holds him in such high regard hes been our starting Rfer for a while now, finally given a chance to show what he can do with consitant playing time, and he has failed miserably.

2 questions for all the Borchard bashers: 1) Are you bashing him so fiercely because you thought he would come close to replacing Ordonez's numbers and help this team to the playoffs?That's a ridiculous expectation of a man who hasn't even succeeded in AAA.Do you honestly believe any of us belive that Borchard would replace Ordonez? The fact that you would believe some of us may think that this carp would come anywhere close to Ordonez's production is a mock to everyones intelligence. All Borchard has shown is that he is not ready for the majors, and considering this is his 3-4th call up over the last 2 years, it looks like he never will be. But thats a good thing, at least now we know. Except for the fact that his trade value is down the toilet

2) Why bash an underachieving minor leaguer, a man who's only been on the team a month, a man with little expectations when you look at his baseball performances and not his draft status or signing bonus, when you have better alternatives on the team worthy of being bashed. Now there's a contradicting statement. Kinda hard to imagine a first round draft pick, with a record 5 mil signing bonus(at the time) to have "little expectations" its quite the opposite, and thats whats so dissaspointing, Borchard has proven the sox dropped the ball on this one.

For example, Joe Crede. Crede is the one coming off what some would consider a good second-half major league-level performance. Crede is the one who has been with the team the whole season, contributing NOTHING! Surely those who bash Borchard realize Joe Crede is a bigger reason for the sinking of Lake Michigan's version of Edmund Fitzgerald.I hope Crede goes too. But in his defense, he's a third baseman not a right fielder, now of course no team wants to carry a 3rd baseman with a .220 avg. But Borchard is in RF and has done NOTHING, and hes been given the chance. At least Crede has shown spurts of bringing the lumber at times in his career. He can hit major league pitchers, Borchard simply cannot. He's a big disappointment, and deserves all the bashing he gets.

OurBitchinMinny
09-02-2004, 11:47 PM
Borchard is not to blame for the teams annual epic collapse. But he has proved that he doesnt deserve to be part of this teams future. If he cant produce in no pressure situations like they have everyday, how will he ever if they actually get into contention in the next decade. He is a career minor leaguer and a horrible scouting decision

bc2k
09-03-2004, 12:53 AM
I dont understand the importance of that. Plus your defending a player when you admit that you havent consitantly watched him? Kind of hard to take your opinion seriously. The fact that this team has thrown in the towel is exactly why Borchard/Diaz/Munoz/Burke etc. are being given more playing time, thats how it works, it's an early spring training. In Borchards case, the franchise holds him in such high regard hes been our starting Rfer for a while now, finally given a chance to show what he can do with consitant playing time, and he has failed miserably. No, I am not defending Joe Borchard. My first post of this thread described him as an "underachieving minor leaguer," and a failure. The objective of this thread was to question the constant bashing of him. I tried to make it very clear that I am not satisfied with Borchard's play. I was, and still am, questioning why people have been so passionate in their criticism of a man who joined the team after many had already conceded the 2004 season. I understand being passionate when bashing a man who deserves it, who was with the team all season and contributed to the lost season, but it just seems to me that Borchard is the least of our team's problems, so I wouldn't waste the energy bashing him.

All Borchard has shown is that he is not ready for the majors, and considering this is his 3-4th call up over the last 2 years, it looks like he never will be.

Now there's a contradicting statement. Kinda hard to imagine a first round draft pick, with a record 5 mil signing bonus(at the time) to have "little expectations" its quite the opposite, and thats whats so dissaspointing, Borchard has proven the sox dropped the ball on this one. Contradiction indeed! As you admit, all Borchard has shown is that he is not ready for the majors. My original "little expectations" comment in my first post answered this question before you even thought to ask it: Why bash an underachieving minor leaguer, a man who's only been on the team a month, a man with little expectations when you look at his baseball performances and not his draft status or signing bonus, when you have better alternatives on the team worthy of being bashed.
I hope Crede goes too. But in his defense, he's a third baseman not a right fielder, now of course no team wants to carry a 3rd baseman with a .220 avg. But Borchard is in RF and has done NOTHING, and hes been given the chance. At least Crede has shown spurts of bringing the lumber at times in his career. He can hit major league pitchers, Borchard simply cannot. He's a big disappointment, and deserves all the bashing he gets. This is where we differ. I believe that while Crede may be a better baseball player than Borchard, he has done more to hurt the 2004 White Sox team than the less productive Borchard has. Borchard will not be starting for the White Sox next year; Crede probably will be. Barring great advancement in Winter baseball (which I doubt he'll even attend), Crede will again hurt our team more than Borchard, whose expectations are so low that he won't even sniff the 25-man roster.

gosox41
09-03-2004, 07:48 AM
.

2) Why bash an underachieving minor leaguer, a man who's only been on the team a month, a man with little expectations when you look at his baseball performances and not his draft status or signing bonus, when you have better alternatives on the team worthy of being bashed.

Fitzgerald.
I'm actually in Borchard's corner but I can see why he is being bashed. The reality is he was a first round pick and was given big money. I don't begrudge the guy for taking it, I would have done the same thing if I were him. But I can understand questioning the White Sox deciding to so freely hand out that money when it could have been used on the ML club.

Joe B. has high expectations. KW all but said that he is untouchable. We've been hearing about him for 4 years now. Everything from his LTP to injuries slowing him down to his football mentality. To most fans it's time to show at least some promise. While I have seen a slight improvement in his at bats (shorter swing, slightly better pitch selection) most fans want to see results, And his numbers aren't good at all right now.

My guess is fans are becoming really frustrated with the 2004 season general. Add that to the fact that there is not much help in the upper level of the minor league system asnd I can see where it gets frustrating for most. I'm frustrated. I just haven't given up on Joe B yet. But I have long given up on KW. And if Joe B does turn out to be a bust or finally figures out hitting in his FA year when he is 30 then I'm going to be really PO'ed at KW (because as it was pointed out before KW ran the 2000 draft).




Bob

soxtalker
09-03-2004, 10:03 AM
I'm actually in Borchard's corner but I can see why he is being bashed. The reality is he was a first round pick and was given big money. I don't begrudge the guy for taking it, I would have done the same thing if I were him. But I can understand questioning the White Sox deciding to so freely hand out that money when it could have been used on the ML club.

Joe B. has high expectations. KW all but said that he is untouchable. We've been hearing about him for 4 years now. Everything from his LTP to injuries slowing him down to his football mentality. To most fans it's time to show at least some promise. While I have seen a slight improvement in his at bats (shorter swing, slightly better pitch selection) most fans want to see results, And his numbers aren't good at all right now.

My guess is fans are becoming really frustrated with the 2004 season general. Add that to the fact that there is not much help in the upper level of the minor league system asnd I can see where it gets frustrating for most. I'm frustrated. I just haven't given up on Joe B yet. But I have long given up on KW. And if Joe B does turn out to be a bust or finally figures out hitting in his FA year when he is 30 then I'm going to be really PO'ed at KW (because as it was pointed out before KW ran the 2000 draft).

Bob
I tend to agree with many of the points in your last paragraph. Also, I've noticed a general tendency on WSI (and probably with fans in general) to take a near- or short-term perspective. Players are usually evaluated by what they've done in the past month, trade suggestions often center on star players from other teams, KW is generally appreciated because he makes trades to "win it now", most talk of developing prospects is met with derision, etc. Now, I'd prefer a longer-term perspective, but I don't think that's what most White Sox fans care about. And these are the passionate fans who really care about the Sox. Most casual fans won't even pay attention to the team unless it is doing well.

Given this short-term perspective or preference, Borchard simply doesn't have much time in most fans' minds. He has taken awhile in the minors (though I would point out that injuries delayed him), and, unlike most minor leaguers, we've been hearing about him for awhile. KW put the untouchable label on him (though that didn't stop Reed from being traded), which added to the expectations.

PatK
09-03-2004, 10:23 AM
I honestly don't think that Joe is too bad defensively. He's made some really nice plays in the field. But it seems like each good one is usually followed up by a bonehead one.

Look at the second game against the A's. He makes a nice diving grab in the first, then in the second goes for another one and misses. Thank God Rowand was doing a great job of backing him up. But on that play, Joe should have realized that there WAS NO WAY HE WAS GETTING TO THAT BALL, and just played it on the hop.

We all know how clueless he looks at the plate, but is it me, or does he have the weakest arm you've ever seen from a college QB?

soxtalker
09-03-2004, 10:38 AM
I honestly don't think that Joe is too bad defensively. He's made some really nice plays in the field. But it seems like each good one is usually followed up by a bonehead one.

Look at the second game against the A's. He makes a nice diving grab in the first, then in the second goes for another one and misses. Thank God Rowand was doing a great job of backing him up. But on that play, Joe should have realized that there WAS NO WAY HE WAS GETTING TO THAT BALL, and just played it on the hop.

We all know how clueless he looks at the plate, but is it me, or does he have the weakest arm you've ever seen from a college QB?
I was at a game a few weeks back, and I thought he made a pretty strong throw to the plate from the field. So, my impression was that is one of his strong points. Maybe it is the same inconsistency as you cite in the diving catches. Hopefully, he'll develop that baseball sense. My question, though, is why don't they develop those things in our minor league system? It's not just Joe. Is hitting the only thing that they focus on down there?

kittle42
09-03-2004, 10:43 AM
I tend to agree with many of the points in your last paragraph. Also, I've noticed a general tendency on WSI (and probably with fans in general) to take a near- or short-term perspective. Players are usually evaluated by what they've done in the past month,
What?! Don't you know that new Twins 3B is a future HOF?

kittle42
09-03-2004, 10:44 AM
I was at a game a few weeks back, and I thought he made a pretty strong throw to the plate from the field.
Did they kick the XP or go for two?

cornball
09-03-2004, 10:54 AM
Borchard is not to blame for the teams annual epic collapse. But he has proved that he doesnt deserve to be part of this teams future. If he cant produce in no pressure situations like they have everyday, how will he ever if they actually get into contention in the next decade. He is a career minor leaguer and a horrible scouting decision
I am not Borchard bashing, but it is obvious he is not ready, I'm not sure if he will ever be able to hit at this level. Like most of the posters here, I am rooting for him. He has not performed time and time again. The only reason he is here is the investment the team has made in him. If they have not spent the 5MM+ bonus, he would be long gone.

It seems many of the opinions I read are biased. Either toward prospects or against. It is a huge jump from minor ball to the majors, aside from talent players have to deal with the pressure. Not all can do it.

MisterB
09-03-2004, 11:17 AM
I was at a game a few weeks back, and I thought he made a pretty strong throw to the plate from the field. So, my impression was that is one of his strong points. Maybe it is the same inconsistency as you cite in the diving catches. Hopefully, he'll develop that baseball sense. Watching this Oakland series, I was singulary unimpressed with Borchard's defense. For a guy who was thought of as a potential CF he doesn't seem to cover much ground. He kind of lopes around the field and on a couple of those diving plays he either wasn't going all-out to get there or else his foot speed has been exaggerated.

My question, though, is why don't they develop those things in our minor league system? It's not just Joe. Is hitting the only thing that they focus on down there?This has been a huge failing of the Sox farm system. They've been cranking out fundamentally unsound players for years. Can anyone name the last well-rounded position player they produced? Ventura?

gosox41
09-03-2004, 01:37 PM
This has been a huge failing of the Sox farm system. They've been cranking out fundamentally unsound players for years. Can anyone name the last well-rounded position player they produced? Ventura?
Probably Ventura, and he came from a strong baseball program where he probably learned the basics. Maybe the Sox should stop focusing on drafting HS kids and players who don't have much baseball expereince to begin with (but are good athletes) It's one thing to get used to hitting a 90 MPH fastball with a wood bat, but it's another to actually learn the game and become fundamentally sound.

Either that or the Sox need to find a way to teach these kids the fundamentals. That's probably what they should be doing more often is actually teaching the game.


Bob

A. Cavatica
09-03-2004, 07:19 PM
Can anyone name the last well-rounded position player they produced? Ventura?
Remember that guy named Ordonez who used to play for us?

kitekrazy
09-03-2004, 09:07 PM
I honestly don't think that Joe is too bad defensively. He's made some really nice plays in the field. But it seems like each good one is usually followed up by a bonehead one.

That's what happens when you have guys like Jose Valentn over extend their stay. I guess it just catches on to someone else.