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LincolnSquareOz
09-01-2004, 04:46 PM
Let me preface this by saying I think Ozzie is a great team guy/leader type and I think he knows the game and recognizes the way he wants his team to play. I even think he'll be more successful when he actually gets some players who want to get on base and run.

That being said, was Ozzie's hiring the right choice for the Sox this season? Should the Sox have gone in a different direction, to the "old school", for a Cito Gaston, Tom Kelly, or Charlie Manuel?

Hope to see a few response to this before the "This Thread Sucks" shows up...

DVsoxfan
09-01-2004, 05:04 PM
This was Ozzie's 1st yr. Let's see how he handles next yr. when he has more of a national league type team. I'm suprised things aren't worse than they are, all things considered.

mdep524
09-01-2004, 05:06 PM
I really don't think a different manager would have made that much of a difference with this team, unless he could magically heal legs.
Cito Gaston? Yawn. Charlie Manuel is interesting, he might get hired over in Philly to replace the intolerable Larry Bowa. Tom Kelly would have been great, and KW apparently asked him about the job and he refused. As did, IIRC, Jim Leyland.

Ozzie has made some bonehead calls this season, but I want to see what he does with his team before I make a final judgment on him.

chisoxt
09-01-2004, 05:36 PM
While I was against Ozzies hiring at first, I swung around and supported him when I realized that the Sox would do no better than hire the same typeof lap-dog push-button manager anyway. So, I thought that a change in the dynamics would be good.

In general, I give Ozzie a passing grade, realizing that he made a lot of good moves and a lot of bad ones as well. (trying to force a running game on a slow-footed team, not retaliating for the Torii Hunter cheap shot etc). I think that you have to grade Ozzie on a curve for this year, given the injuries to Maggs, and, that he was not given a full staff of competent pitchers to work with. That one I put on the GM's shoulders.

Now, the key for Ozzie going forward is to learn from his mistakes...If he keeps making the same ones, then I would not advocate his return for 2006. Then again, by that time we will probably be into a full-blown rebuilding phase so it most likely won't matter.

balke
09-01-2004, 05:44 PM
regardless of record or situation put in... I'm getting kind of sick of everything that comes out of the guys mouth. Telling people to step it up, get mean, pitch tough. Then turning around and saying "it was a clean play" for Torii Hunter... not retaliating. How tough are you Ozzie? When have you ever stuck up for your players? We haven't done it clean or dirty.

Now he's dogging Diaz, when he knows there's nothing better out there, save Grili, who will probably negate his last performance by getting lit up tonight.

I think the Manager should make friends with his team, not enemies. He's called out Thomas, Garland, Diaz, didn't stick up for Burke. What's positive that he has to say, except for patting his Buddy garcia on the back every now and then.


Screw Ozzie ball. Til he shows some stones.

OurBitchinMinny
09-01-2004, 06:32 PM
Bad hire. Big shock JR goes cheap. Ozzie may be a good manager one day, but he got fast tracked too soon. You dont go from just coaching 3rd to managing a team. I would have rather they hired hargrove. But ozzie is the guy now. Give him a few years with is type of players and lets see what he can do. Awful first year though. Granted there were injuries, but to be under .500 in the al central is embarrassing and sickening

Daver
09-01-2004, 06:36 PM
I hated the hiring of Ozzie Guillen in the offseason, and I haven't changed my opinion on it much.

cwsox
09-01-2004, 09:25 PM
I hated the hiring of Ozzie Guillen in the offseason, and I haven't changed my opinion on it much. I have to agree. I started an Ozzie Death Watch at sox and roll and too bad that board isn't around so my death watch would still be out there

I don't know if Cito Gaston was the answer but never thought that Ozzie was

A. Cavatica
09-01-2004, 09:29 PM
Wally Backman is the guy we should have hired.

SOXSINCE'70
09-01-2004, 09:32 PM
Wally Backman is the guy we should have hired.
Is he the no carbs version of Larry Bowa or a high fat
content version of Terry Bevington in disguise??:D: :D: :D:

Daver
09-01-2004, 09:33 PM
Wally Backman is the guy we should have hired.
You're kidding right?

santo=dorf
09-01-2004, 09:35 PM
Wally Backman is the guy we should have hired.
You mean the prick that was happy to see us "get our asses kicked" by the Twins in September? :mad:

cwsox
09-01-2004, 10:22 PM
You mean the prick that was happy to see us "get our asses kicked" by the Twins in September? :mad:
and that is why Backman was not the answer at all

A. Cavatica
09-01-2004, 10:23 PM
You're kidding right?
Not kidding. He's a bulldog and his teams Birmingham teams performed for him, even without any hitters. And he's a decent X's and O's guy.

As for the (alleged) quote about wanting the Sox to lose so Manuel would get fired and Backman could get his job...I think most of us agree Manuel needed to be fired, and I can't hold the comment (which was probably a joke) against him.

santo=dorf
09-01-2004, 10:27 PM
As for the (alleged) quote about wanting the Sox to lose so Manuel would get fired and Backman could get his job...I think most of us agree Manuel needed to be fired, and I can't hold the comment (which was probably a joke) against him.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Daver
09-01-2004, 10:42 PM
Not kidding. He's a bulldog and his teams Birmingham teams performed for him, even without any hitters. And he's a decent X's and O's guy.

As for the (alleged) quote about wanting the Sox to lose so Manuel would get fired and Backman could get his job...I think most of us agree Manuel needed to be fired, and I can't hold the comment (which was probably a joke) against him.
There is a huge difference between coaching minor leaguers that will go over their head to perform to coaching veteran MLB players.

A. Cavatica
09-01-2004, 10:51 PM
There is a huge difference between coaching minor leaguers that will go over their head to perform to coaching veteran MLB players.
And Ozzie would be better at this than Backman...why?

Daver
09-01-2004, 10:56 PM
And Ozzie would be better at this than Backman...why?I hated the hiring of Ozzie Guillen in the offseason, and I haven't changed my opinion on it much.
What part of this did you miss?

A. Cavatica
09-01-2004, 11:03 PM
What part of this did you miss?
My bad. We both hated the Ozzie hiring, but I think Backman was the best of the names that were bandied about, and you apparently wanted someone with ML experience.

Who was your choice? Cito didn't have the energy this team needed. Francona would've stroked the players' egos but had an awful track record in Philly.

Daver
09-01-2004, 11:06 PM
My bad. We both hated the Ozzie hiring, but I think Backman was the best of the names that were bandied about, and you apparently wanted someone with ML experience.

Who was your choice? Cito didn't have the energy this team needed. Francona would've stroked the players' egos but had an awful track record in Philly.
Nick Leyva.

A. Cavatica
09-01-2004, 11:09 PM
Nick Leyva.
.439 winning percentage over 2+ seasons.

Leyva was not the answer.

Daver
09-01-2004, 11:22 PM
.439 winning percentage over 2+ seasons.

Leyva was not the answer.
LOL

All numbers lie.

No one knows the Sox minor league system better than Nick does, he has managed every level of it, and now oversees all of it, He would be a better option than Ozzie right now.

TornLabrum
09-01-2004, 11:43 PM
regardless of record or situation put in... I'm getting kind of sick of everything that comes out of the guys mouth. Telling people to step it up, get mean, pitch tough. Then turning around and saying "it was a clean play" for Torii Hunter... not retaliating. How tough are you Ozzie? When have you ever stuck up for your players? We haven't done it clean or dirty.

Now he's dogging Diaz, when he knows there's nothing better out there, save Grili, who will probably negate his last performance by getting lit up tonight.

I think the Manager should make friends with his team, not enemies. He's called out Thomas, Garland, Diaz, didn't stick up for Burke. What's positive that he has to say, except for patting his Buddy garcia on the back every now and then.


Screw Ozzie ball. Til he shows some stones.
Some people don't get it. He also said, "That's how I'd like US to play." Get it?

cwsox
09-01-2004, 11:45 PM
.439 winning percentage over 2+ seasons.

Leyva was not the answer.
what was Torre's record before he got his current gig?

A. Cavatica
09-02-2004, 12:42 AM
what was Torre's record before he got his current gig?A fine question. .405 with the Mets (5 seasons); .529 with Atlanta (3 seasons); .498 with St. Louis (6 seasons).

Torre is a strange case. I can't fathom why he lasted 5 seasons with the Mets. I did find a Met fan site that addressed the question: (http://www.ultimatemets.com/profile.php?PlayerCode=0245&tabno=7)




You don't last five seasons managing the Mets unless you know what you're doing. From 1977 to 1981, Torre held on, despite a winning percentage from Hell. Why? He had a team of no-talents playing almost every game like it was the post-season. Those teams were bad, but they had character. They battled. They played hurt. They did NOT earn big money. Most of us remember some of those players with great fondness: Stearns, Maz, Flynn, Swannie, Krane, etc. That so many of those guys became coaches and managers after they retired from playing says quite a few things about Torre's leadership abilities even at that early stage of his second career. Torre has admitted he wasn't a great manager when he was with the Mets. He was a rookie with no minor league experience, MLB's last player-manager to date. Cashen fired him because he wanted his own man. For his part, Torre was neither upset nor surprised when he was let go.





Is it true that "You don't last five seasons managing the Mets unless you know what you're doing"? There might have been less pressure in 1980 than there is now, but unless Met ownership was horribly incompetent, Torre must have shown something. Since he had no minor-league experience, it's clear the Mets were willing to wait for him to improve; it's not like the Mets expected him to duplicate his minor-league success.

Unlike Daver, I don't think all numbers lie. On average, I expect a good minor-league record to translate to a good major-league record. Some minor leaguers will land in better situations in the majors and some will land in worse situations, and talent will win out on average.



Leyva was fired a few games into his third season, but to his credit, he has a 633-555 (.533) minor league record (or did, as of 6/21). Based on that he might deserve another shot. I certainly would have preferred him to Ozzie if you'd asked me at the beginning of the season.



But Backman was 152-125 in his two years with Birmingham and is 67-42 in the California League this year (or was, at the time this was written: http://www.jethawks.com/gamesummary.php?id=188). That works out to .567, while winning some titles and awards, and not posting any damning major league seasons that you have to explain away.

Edit: Backman is 82-52 this year.

(Aside to Daver: why do you think Leyva would handle established major leaguers better than Backman? I don't know much about Leyva's personality, but Backman is no shrinking violet.)

Many people believe Backman blew it when the story broke about his conversation with Gardenhire. Even if he said what was reported, it sounds like he was just joking around. I thought KW handled the matter very poorly, throwing out the best managerial prospect in the organization for no good reason.

ZachAL
09-02-2004, 12:50 AM
regardless of record or situation put in... I'm getting kind of sick of everything that comes out of the guys mouth. Telling people to step it up, get mean, pitch tough. Then turning around and saying "it was a clean play" for Torii Hunter... not retaliating. How tough are you Ozzie? When have you ever stuck up for your players? We haven't done it clean or dirty.


Screw Ozzie ball. Til he shows some stones.
100% exactly right...couldnt have put it better

pinwheels3530
09-02-2004, 12:56 AM
regardless of record or situation put in... I'm getting kind of sick of everything that comes out of the guys mouth. Telling people to step it up, get mean, pitch tough. Then turning around and saying "it was a clean play" for Torii Hunter... not retaliating. How tough are you Ozzie? When have you ever stuck up for your players? We haven't done it clean or dirty.

Now he's dogging Diaz, when he knows there's nothing better out there, save Grili, who will probably negate his last performance by getting lit up tonight.

I think the Manager should make friends with his team, not enemies. He's called out Thomas, Garland, Diaz, didn't stick up for Burke. What's positive that he has to say, except for patting his Buddy garcia on the back every now and then.


Screw Ozzie ball. Til he shows some stones.

Ohhh noooo......not the it's Ozzies fault thread.......:tsk:

balke
09-02-2004, 03:37 AM
Ohhh noooo......not the it's Ozzies fault thread.......:tsk:


Hey man, I didn't start the thread. But if he's going to do or say something wrong every week, I'm going to call him on it.

This is more like an ozzie sucks regardless thread, rather than a thread laying blame.

balke
09-02-2004, 03:45 AM
Some people don't get it. He also said, "That's how I'd like US to play." Get it?


Then.... why don't we?

Actions speak louder than words. If Schilling has the dirt in him to throw at Timo for hitting a fair homerun off of him, I think we can afford to stick up for our catcher in a play like in Minnesota. That's what winners do, that's what heart is. Ozzie can call that up and in, anytime he wants.

Fair or not, respectable or not, no retaliation for something like that is just a disgrace. But that wasn't my only gripe. Ozzie's got some work yet to do this season IMO.

SOXSINCE'70
09-02-2004, 08:24 AM
Then.... why don't we?

Actions speak louder than words. If Schilling has the dirt in him to throw at Timo for hitting a fair homerun off of him, I think we can afford to stick up for our catcher in a play like in Minnesota. That's what winners do, that's what heart is. Ozzie can call that up and in, anytime he wants.

Fair or not, respectable or not, no retaliation for something like that is just a disgrace. But that wasn't my only gripe. Ozzie's got some work yet to do this season IMO.If you wanted to "stick it" to the Twinkies,here's an idea for you.Have someone other than Aaron Rowand show a little pride.Hey,Hunter takes out your catcher,I say next baserunner who gets to second on a DP grounder tries to cleanly break it up.
Or hey,how about this idea:if a Sox runner can score from 3rd on
a Sac Fly,take out Henry Blanco or the oft-injured Joe Maurer.

"Sox Pride" my butt!!:angry: :angry: :angry:

34 Inch Stick
09-02-2004, 08:32 AM
I really don't think a different manager would have made that much of a difference with this team, unless he could magically heal legs.
.
Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid would have brought us a championship!

I did not like the Ozzie hiring. As with any first time manager I was resigned to reserve judgement until he had at least a year to know what he was doing. I will give him at least another half year before bashing him. That is how long the Sox will give him as well, as he is signed through the end of next year.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2004, 11:32 AM
If you wanted to "stick it" to the Twinkies,here's an idea for you.Have someone other than Aaron Rowand show a little pride.Hey,Hunter takes out your catcher,I say next baserunner who gets to second on a DP grounder tries to cleanly break it up.
Or hey,how about this idea:if a Sox runner can score from 3rd on
a Sac Fly,take out Henry Balnco or the oft-injured Joe Maurer.

"Sox Pride" my butt!!:angry: :angry: :angry:

I was at the July 26 game when Hunter steamrolled Burke. If I was Ozzie, I would have ordered the next Sox baserunner to plow the Twins catcher. (As it turns out, IIRC, the next time a Sox player got on base was LTP's solo shot. Wouldn't that have been something to see? LTP, upon circling the bases, runs full speed coming around third and takes out the Twins' catcher? :redneck If he had done that, he probably would have been suspended for 10 games, getting his .150 average out of the lineup for the games that the Sox tanked against the Twins and Tigers later that week.) Maybe they still would have a winning record today?

mdep524
09-02-2004, 11:45 AM
Then.... why don't we?

Actions speak louder than words. If Schilling has the dirt in him to throw at Timo for hitting a fair homerun off of him, I think we can afford to stick up for our catcher in a play like in Minnesota. That's what winners do, that's what heart is. Ozzie can call that up and in, anytime he wants.

Fair or not, respectable or not, no retaliation for something like that is just a disgrace. But that wasn't my only gripe. Ozzie's got some work yet to do this season IMO.
You gotta have tough, scrappy, agressive, "grinder" players to do that. Ozzie has a bunch of chokers and wimps.

:walnuts
You want me to run over the catcher? Hey, I may be a big guy, but I don't swing that way. Just let me pop out peacefully please...

:jon
Why throw at a batter when I can just get him 0-2 and then let him hit a homerun? That's the ultimate retaliation.

TornLabrum
09-02-2004, 08:56 PM
Then.... why don't we?

Actions speak louder than words. If Schilling has the dirt in him to throw at Timo for hitting a fair homerun off of him, I think we can afford to stick up for our catcher in a play like in Minnesota. That's what winners do, that's what heart is. Ozzie can call that up and in, anytime he wants.

Fair or not, respectable or not, no retaliation for something like that is just a disgrace. But that wasn't my only gripe. Ozzie's got some work yet to do this season IMO.
Good question. Maybe because the players are too stupid to do it.

TornLabrum
09-02-2004, 08:57 PM
I was at the July 26 game when Hunter steamrolled Burke. If I was Ozzie, I would have ordered the next Sox baserunner to plow the Twins catcher. (As it turns out, IIRC, the next time a Sox player got on base was LTP's solo shot. Wouldn't that have been something to see? LTP, upon circling the bases, runs full speed coming around third and takes out the Twins' catcher? :redneck If he had done that, he probably would have been suspended for 10 games, getting his .150 average out of the lineup for the games that the Sox tanked against the Twins and Tigers later that week.) Maybe they still would have a winning record today?
The problem was the Twins weren't sticking around the bases long enough for the two runners who tried (Rowand and Lee, iirc) to plow into them.

Whitesox029
09-02-2004, 11:14 PM
In my honest opinion, the decision to hire one manager over another in this particular situation and in most situations is hardly ever relevant to the tune of 3 games or more difference, if that. Ozzie did the best with what he was given, and what he was given just happened to be a bunch of undependable fence swingers. Ozzie doesn't bunt them enough? That's because none of them can bunt. I firmly believe that Ozzie himself could bunt better right now than every single player on our roster.

Daver
09-02-2004, 11:34 PM
(Aside to Daver: why do you think Leyva would handle established major leaguers better than Backman? I don't know much about Leyva's personality, but Backman is no shrinking violet.)

Simple, Nick knows what it takes to manage, at all levels, he has experience at every level. Nick knows the difference between coaching a kid fresh out of HS and what it takes to build his confidence, to dealing with veteran MLB players and what it takes to get them to buy into his philosophy. Wally Backman has always been, and probably always will be, a my way or the highway guy. There are very few managers that can pull that off on the MLB level, it works in the minors, but MLB players would revolt under that type of attitude.

whitesoxwilkes
09-02-2004, 11:38 PM
Simple, Nick knows what it takes to manage, at all levels, he has experience at every level. Nick knows the difference between coaching a kid fresh out of HS and what it takes to build his confidence, to dealing with veteran MLB players and what it takes to get them to buy into his philosophy. Wally Backman has always been, and probably always will be, a my way or the highway guy. There are very few managers that can pull that off on the MLB level, it works in the minors, but MLB players would revolt under that type of attitude.
Think we may see Leyva as a bench coach on the South Side next year?

mdep524
09-02-2004, 11:44 PM
Think we may see Leyva as a bench coach on the South Side next year?
Not a bad idea.

You know who also would make a GREAT bench coach for this team? Steve Stone. Probably a pretty good GM as well. He has one of the best baseball minds in all of Chicago, and he is wasting away in the Cubs TV booth. Anybody think he'd be a good hire?

A. Cavatica
09-02-2004, 11:54 PM
Not a bad idea.

You know who also would make a GREAT bench coach for this team? Steve Stone. Probably a pretty good GM as well. He has one of the best baseball minds in all of Chicago, and he is wasting away in the Cubs TV booth. Anybody think he'd be a good hire?
He's my fifth starter.

Wait, should that be in teal? :D:

A. Cavatica
09-02-2004, 11:57 PM
Wally Backman has always been, and probably always will be, a my way or the highway guy. There are very few managers that can pull that off on the MLB level, it works in the minors, but MLB players would revolt under that type of attitude.
Yes, they would. Unless the team was winning -- which I think it would have done more of under Backman than any of the other candidates.

Daver
09-03-2004, 12:14 AM
Think we may see Leyva as a bench coach on the South Side next year?
I think Harold Baines has a job for life, someone had to become Joe Nossecks replacement as the chairmans spy in the clubhouse.

Daver
09-03-2004, 12:14 AM
Yes, they would. Unless the team was winning -- which I think it would have done more of under Backman than any of the other candidates.
Wally would lose the team in ST.

cwsox
09-03-2004, 12:16 AM
Not a bad idea.

You know who also would make a GREAT bench coach for this team? Steve Stone. Probably a pretty good GM as well. He has one of the best baseball minds in all of Chicago, and he is wasting away in the Cubs TV booth. Anybody think he'd be a good hire?
Stone pitched for us, is a quality guy, won a Cy Young although not for us, and has a fine baseball mind.

But I can't picture him coaching for anyone.

Now him buying a a team, that I can see.

I am not suggesting he buy the Sox. I am one of the few who is ok with JR, I know, but when his time passes and his son takes over, I think we all may be very pleased.

whitesoxwilkes
09-03-2004, 02:12 PM
I think Harold Baines has a job for life, someone had to become Joe Nossecks replacement as the chairmans spy in the clubhouse.
Yeah, but somehow Harold just lacks that crusty old career baseball guy persona that Nossek has.

Foulke29
09-03-2004, 05:58 PM
If we wanted someone to light fire under the arses of our players and stick up for them in the same breath, Bobby Valentine was the best choice in my opinion.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - LaRussa's contract expires this year.