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View Full Version : Shingo not the closer in '05 (from Southtown)


Win1ForMe
09-01-2004, 08:59 AM
Can Takatsu be a closer for an entire season? That's where Cooper has his doubts.

"Closers for me are swing-and-miss guys," Cooper said. "Takatsu's more of a contact closer. He's going to get you outs with grounders, popouts, his savvy, his deception. But he's done a great job for us.

"You've got (New York's Mariano) Rivera, you've got (Los Angeles' Eric) Gagne, (Minnesota's Joe) Nathan maybe when those guys get into the game, it's basically over. If you don't have that type of guy you should keep your options open."

That's why Sox general manager Ken Williams will be in search of another arm for the back end of his bullpen during the offseason.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/011sd4.htm

That's pretty interesting. I can see us going after Urbina (not sure if I'm excited about that) if the Tigers don't pick up his option. Some other names available would be Percival, Dotel (if A's don't offer arbitration), Benitez, Mota (if Marlins don't offer arbitration), Wagner (if Phillies don't pick up his option), and Mesa.

JRIG
09-01-2004, 09:02 AM
"Closers for me are swing-and-miss guys," Cooper said. "Takatsu's more of a contact closer. He's going to get you outs with grounders, popouts, his savvy, his deception."


Not that I'm Takatsu's biggest fan, but is this quote from September 1, 2004, or the offseason of 2002?

Maybe we should bring Koch back.

PatK
09-01-2004, 09:09 AM
I've been wondering if Shingo hit the wall as well, since Japanese pitchers have a tendency to do so because of the shorter season.

One thing I've noticed is that when Shingo struggles, he gets behind in the count to the point where he has to serve up his fastball for an obvious strike, or else walk the batter.

LauraJ14
09-01-2004, 09:21 AM
Didn't Kenny Williams rade Foulke to Oakland for Koch because they wanted a closer that threw hard and see how wll that worked out?
I think if Shingo had 2 good setup guys in front of him and Ozzie used him more efficiently ( when losing, when up by more thatn 4 runs) that he will be fine as a closer for the full year.

Nick@Nite
09-01-2004, 09:25 AM
After compiling a streak of 26 2/3 consecutive scoreless innings from late April through June 29, Takatsu's changeup isn't as effective as it had been. The right-hander has an 8.68 ERA over his last 10 games.

"We've already seen people jumping on the fastball early in the count," Cooper said. "Our countermove is to throw his Frisbee (changeup) and the Asian-eephus early in the count to get ahead, then keep them off balance with the fastball."

Cooper isn't the only one to see the adjustments hitters have made.

"Compared to the beginning of the year, the approach is much different from the hitters," Takatsu said. "In baseball, hitters learn pitchers and pitchers learn hitters. That's part of the game."

Earlier this season, I got ridiculed for posting that baseball is a game of adjustments and that hitters would eventually adjust to Shingo's whiffle ball pitches. It wasn't a matter of if but when hitters adjusted, and it would be up to Shingo to counter that.

Hitters making adjustments? Go figure.

Blueprint1
09-01-2004, 09:41 AM
I myself think its the lefty factor he has trouble getting them out.

Clembasbal
09-01-2004, 10:04 AM
I myself think its the lefty factor he has trouble getting them out.
Singo is holding left handed hitters to a .195 average...I think that is solid enough.

Anyway, Marte was given $3 million + to be our closer, but 12 blown saves in the last two years doesn't cut it. He has major trouble with the Right-handed hitters and not good in the clutch.

Urbina is hit or miss, and Benitez is now too expensive...I say bring back Foulke...everybody loved him.

JasonC23
09-01-2004, 10:16 AM
Anyway, Marte was given $3 million + to be our closer, but 12 blown saves in the last two years doesn't cut it. He has major trouble with the Right-handed hitters and not good in the clutch.
Marte was never expected to be the Sox closer. Also, blown save statistics for a middle reliever are misleading, because while they are credited for blowing a save, they receive no credit for NOT blowing the game.

I say bring back Foulke...everybody loved him.
I have a funny feeling that the Red Sox wouldn't trade Foulke for anything the White Sox have.

HebrewHammer
09-01-2004, 10:26 AM
Sure, why give a job to the one pitcher on this staff I have faith in, he's been too consistent, maybe he'd fit in better with our team concept if he blew a few more games. Remember what happened the last time we brought in a hard throwing closer? His on mop up duty in Florida. The bottomline is Shingo has proven effective at getting the last three outs in close ballgames, he was UNHITTABLE for over a month, a freakin' month! When was the last time we had that kind of performance out of a reliever? When Zero-San is in the game I can relax. He gave up a homer to Jim Thome, oh no! Sky is falling, Thome hits homeruns off EVERYONE, hard thrower or soft tosser, if it were say, Willie Harris, I'd be concerned, but it was The Thominator. The next story I'm expecting is "Rowand to Platoon with Timo"

gosox41
09-01-2004, 11:21 AM
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/011sd4.htm

That's pretty interesting. I can see us going after Urbina (not sure if I'm excited about that) if the Tigers don't pick up his option. Some other names available would be Percival, Dotel (if A's don't offer arbitration), Benitez, Mota (if Marlins don't offer arbitration), Wagner (if Phillies don't pick up his option), and Mesa.
Koch can probably be had for cheap.


Bob

SSN721
09-01-2004, 11:43 AM
Sure, why give a job to the one pitcher on this staff I have faith in, he's been too consistent, maybe he'd fit in better with our team concept if he blew a few more games. Remember what happened the last time we brought in a hard throwing closer? His on mop up duty in Florida. The bottomline is Shingo has proven effective at getting the last three outs in close ballgames, he was UNHITTABLE for over a month, a freakin' month! When was the last time we had that kind of performance out of a reliever? When Zero-San is in the game I can relax. He gave up a homer to Jim Thome, oh no! Sky is falling, Thome hits homeruns off EVERYONE, hard thrower or soft tosser, if it were say, Willie Harris, I'd be concerned, but it was The Thominator. The next story I'm expecting is "Rowand to Platoon with Timo"

I cant agree more. Hitter have adjusted to SHingo, but I dont think he has been given the innings to adjust to them. I still trust him on the mound and he only looked really bad against Thome, but so does nearly any pitcher. I want him in the same role next year until he proves to me completely he cant adjust. I think he is able to, he just needs a little more work then he has been getting.

StepsInSC
09-01-2004, 11:49 AM
I've been wondering if Shingo hit the wall as well, since Japanese pitchers have a tendency to do so because of the shorter season.

Traditionally Japanese pitchers throw a lot more over the course of an even shorter season than MLB pitchers though, so I'm hesitant to say thats the case even if it appeared as though Shingo had hit some kind of wall, which frankly I don't agree with either.

pudge
09-01-2004, 12:36 PM
I cant agree more. Hitter have adjusted to SHingo, but I dont think he has been given the innings to adjust to them. I still trust him on the mound and he only looked really bad against Thome, but so does nearly any pitcher. I want him in the same role next year until he proves to me completely he cant adjust. I think he is able to, he just needs a little more work then he has been getting.
I don't know, I have mixed feelings. I am concerned that this organization doesn't learn from its past mistakes (Foulke vs. Koch), but at the same time, it's probably wise to try and get someone and keep the options open. It would be nice to have a lock-down closer and have Marte and Shingo setting him up.

Clembasbal
09-01-2004, 12:46 PM
Marte was never expected to be the Sox closer. Also, blown save statistics for a middle reliever are misleading, because while they are credited for blowing a save, they receive no credit for NOT blowing the game.


I have a funny feeling that the Red Sox wouldn't trade Foulke for anything the White Sox have.
As much as I like to agree with middle reliever blown saves do not matter, I would say that at least 75% of Marte's blown saves have been when he has tried to close out games. Though I will also agree that he was not paid to be our closer, the fact that we spent $3 million + on a middle reliever is not something the Sox typcially do, so something was probably behind that...not to mention that whenever Shingo blows it our Hispanic lover - Guillen - always respinds by putting Marte out there again.

Getting Foulke is not going to happen, it just would be nice...Garland seems to pitch well only there, add him to the mix of a nice off-season trade and Foulke can be a pale hose again.

maurice
09-01-2004, 02:04 PM
Earlier this season, I got ridiculed for posting that baseball is a game of adjustments and that hitters would eventually adjust to Shingo's whiffle ball pitches.
At least two people posted the same thing right after Takatsu was signed.

DickAllen72
09-01-2004, 04:12 PM
Shingo has earned that closer job and up to this point has done nothing to deserve losing it.

I'm all for keeping options open and obtaining better players to improve the club. But if and when a guy like Urbina is brought in, he should be coming in with the understanding that he is a set-up guy unless and until he can win the job from Shingo (or Shingo loses the job).

That was the situation with Shingo. One reason he chose the Sox was he felt he had a good chance at becoming the closer. But he was not handed the job, he had to earn it.
Just a thought: How would it go over with Shingo and his teammates if Ozzie's personal friend Urbina were brought in and handed the job? :?:

MRKARNO
09-01-2004, 05:17 PM
Shingo's problems are coming from a lack of control, not from hitters figuring him out. He hasn't been hitting the corners with the fastball as much as he was earlier in the season and is instead leaving it over the plate a lot more.

thezeker
09-01-2004, 05:20 PM
Sometimes the White Sox brain trust really scares me.

With all the holes this team has they are thinking about replacing a very pleasant surprise and amazingly consistent performer!!

White Sox Baseball. No wonder it's been 97 years!!!!!!!

mdep524
09-01-2004, 05:50 PM
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/011sd4.htm

That's pretty interesting. I can see us going after Urbina (not sure if I'm excited about that) if the Tigers don't pick up his option. Some other names available would be Percival, Dotel (if A's don't offer arbitration), Benitez, Mota (if Marlins don't offer arbitration), Wagner (if Phillies don't pick up his option), and Mesa.
FWIW, a friend of mine from Philly who is a diehard Phillies fan says Billy Wagner is tired of Philly- especially Larry Bowa- and the Phils might not pick up his option or they might trade him (if Bowa comes back next year).

Of all the available names, Wagner is the ONLY one I would prefer to Shingo as the closer. Mesa? Dotel? Urbina? Come on.

Foulke You
09-01-2004, 06:26 PM
While I would hesitate to pull the rug out on Shingo as our closer, I'm all for having depth in the bullpen. I really feel that this year's pen was the weakest it has been in a while. There isn't much past Polite, Shingo, and Marte.
I've always been a big Troy Percival fan. I'd pick him up if he is healthy. World Series ring and 99mph GAS. I've always felt Urbina was a tad overrated. His asking price would be too high for us anyway. Anyone know what Percival's contract status is?

Paid Santiago
09-01-2004, 06:55 PM
Get Scott Williamson Please!!!!!!!!!!!!

balke
09-01-2004, 06:58 PM
FWIW, a friend of mine from Philly who is a diehard Phillies fan says Billy Wagner is tired of Philly- especially Larry Bowa- and the Phils might not pick up his option or they might trade him (if Bowa comes back next year).

Of all the available names, Wagner is the ONLY one I would prefer to Shingo as the closer. Mesa? Dotel? Urbina? Come on.
Very True. Urbina, no thank you. Dotel, I'll listen. Wagner I'll listen... together, they were magic.

batmanZoSo
09-01-2004, 07:18 PM
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/011sd4.htm

That's pretty interesting. I can see us going after Urbina (not sure if I'm excited about that) if the Tigers don't pick up his option. Some other names available would be Percival, Dotel (if A's don't offer arbitration), Benitez, Mota (if Marlins don't offer arbitration), Wagner (if Phillies don't pick up his option), and Mesa.
The less you use this guy the better. Not that he's bad or that he can't close well, but we can't go into next year with him as the only closer option. We need like Guillermo Mota or Percival to go along with him. I think he's maximized by getting about 10-12 saves, doing a good deal of setup, doing a good deal of middle relief and a lot of one or two batter matchup outings a la Kelly Wunsch. Make it so the other team isn't gearing up to face him. He should be a nice weapon, but not the main feature.

kitekrazy
09-01-2004, 10:02 PM
I think the real problem is Don Cooper. Our staff was bad last year and it's gotten worse. Mark B., Garland, Cotts, Schoenweiss-they've gotten worse. I think it's time to take a look at the pitching coach.

OurBitchinMinny
09-01-2004, 10:42 PM
Shingo is not the answer at closer. He is old and the league if figuring him out. He is not automatic anymore and makes things a lot more interesting than he has to

michned
09-01-2004, 11:05 PM
Traditionally Japanese pitchers throw a lot more over the course of an even shorter season than MLB pitchers though, so I'm hesitant to say thats the case even if it appeared as though Shingo had hit some kind of wall, which frankly I don't agree with either.
I don't remember where I saw it, but I believe Shingo averaged about 40 innings of work over the past few seasons. He has thrown more this year.

But here is one of the few real clutch baseball players on this team. He is a smart, savvy veteran, and they want to replace him. Incredible.

JB98
09-02-2004, 12:06 AM
Shingo is not the answer at closer. He is old and the league if figuring him out. He is not automatic anymore and makes things a lot more interesting than he has to

Who is to say he can't adjust back? Baseball is a game of constant adjustments, and all players must adjust. Really, I think his recent struggles are due to control problems more than anything. Despite that, he has still blown only one save. Even though he hasn't been sharp, he's still doing his job.

That being said, I'd love to get Wagner for our bullpen. If Shingo and Marte were setting up for him, we'd have a pretty good record of holding leads in the late innings. Of course, that may be wishful thinking.

No way I would replace Shingo with guys like Urbina or Mesa, though. Urbina is not bad, but he hasn't had a particularly good year with Detroit. Not sure he'd be an upgrade over Takatsu. I don't want Mesa in any role under any circumstance. That guy is a head case.

batmanZoSo
09-02-2004, 12:15 AM
I think the real problem is Don Cooper. Our staff was bad last year and it's gotten worse. Mark B., Garland, Cotts, Schoenweiss-they've gotten worse. I think it's time to take a look at the pitching coach.
The boys have been overworked with both pitch counts and number of starts. IT has nothing to do with Cooper. He's done an excellent job. If anything, Buehrle and Garland are better than last year. I don't know where you get off saying something like htat.

JB98
09-02-2004, 12:22 AM
The boys have been overworked with both pitch counts and number of starts. IT has nothing to do with Cooper. He's done an excellent job. If anything, Buehrle and Garland are better than last year. I don't know where you get off saying something like htat.

Quite a few have forgotten that Buerhle was 2-10 at one point last year and rallied to finish 14-14. I'd say Buerhle is better than last year. Garland is still the same as he's always been. <sigh>

One thing about our starters, they don't ever get an extra day off in between starts. They have to go every four days, even at the start of the year, due to the lack of a fifth starter. The pitches and innings pile up more quickly for our guys than they do for other teams.

I'm not going to give Cooper a ringing endorsement, but I don't see how firing him will solve anything. Didn't we already go through a phase where we canned all the assistant coaches? That didn't seem to improve things.

ClaudelSleptHere
09-02-2004, 01:06 AM
Singo is holding left handed hitters to a .195 average...I think that is solid enough.

Anyway, Marte was given $3 million + to be our closer, but 12 blown saves in the last two years doesn't cut it. He has major trouble with the Right-handed hitters and not good in the clutch.

Urbina is hit or miss, and Benitez is now too expensive...I say bring back Foulke...everybody loved him.
I, for one, didn't love him...........

nodiggity59
09-02-2004, 11:21 AM
The Braves have an option on Smoltz next year for the first time in a while - up to now it was all guaranteed. I would LOVE to see him in a Sox uni