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gosox41
09-01-2004, 09:57 AM
Looks like Ozzie won't be starting Felix Diaz again:

"That's take five for Felix."

and

"To me, he's not going to be in the big leagues as a starter unless he comes with something (other than a fastball and changeup)"


So basically Ozzie has determined that after 5 spot starts in the majors that Feliz can't be a starter but he is willing to stick with Borchard no matter how poorly he plays. What is the equivalent of 5 starts in terms of major league at bats? Or better yet, how soon before we see Ozzie give up on Borchard.

Personally, I think Diaz should start the rest of the year, if for no other reason then we have nothing else and I don't want to risk Garcia.

But if Ozzie has already given up on the kid, then I hope they trade him soon. I'd like to see him do well somewhere else. Then Felix could become the poster boy for the Sox player development system.


Bob

JasonC23
09-01-2004, 10:09 AM
Dude, chill, the Sox can afford to give up on Diaz so quickly because all of the team's other starting pitchers are healthy and throwing the ball really well.

Wait...

kittle42
09-01-2004, 10:42 AM
Come ON, Ozzie - Felix Diaz is your most consistent pitcher! He comes in with a 9.00 ERA and then basically gives up 2 runs an inning for the first three and keeps his ERA right near 9...I mean, you know what you're getting!

soxfan26
09-01-2004, 10:47 AM
Here's the article, for those who are tribune registered: link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-0409010300sep01,1,2107509.story?coll=cs-baseball-print)

Guillen indicated Diaz won't be getting another start. He's hoping that when that turn in the rotation comes up Sunday against Seattle, he will be able to use Freddy Garcia.
I don't like the idea of rushing Garcia back out there, not with the playoffs out of reach. There is no reason to risk injuring a big part of next seaon's rotation just to avoid watching Diaz pitch again.

Hangar18
09-01-2004, 11:02 AM
wait a second here ........... the kid Diaz looks like a latin version of a Greg Maddux, without the Control and the Extra Pitch personally. So we knew the guy only has 2 pitches, and we kept running him out there? Imagine if we SPENT THE MONEY, and signed KENNY ROGERS in the 5 spot? Thats 5-10 less losses ............ Were probably in 1st place, or at least tied ........
I hate this Organization. BUT LOOK AT THE MONEY WE SAVED THIS YR

balke
09-01-2004, 02:12 PM
I think ozzie's dumb for coming out and saying that, cause you know we're going to see this kid again. Someone will get injured, or Grilli will get lit up. It's only a matter of time.


I think maybe he said it as a heads up that cotts might get a start, I can live with that. But I expect the same results as if Diaz were out there.

fquaye149
09-01-2004, 03:07 PM
wait a second here ........... the kid Diaz looks like a latin version of a Greg Maddux, without the Control and the Extra Pitch personally. So we knew the guy only has 2 pitches, and we kept running him out there? Imagine if we SPENT THE MONEY, and signed KENNY ROGERS in the 5 spot? Thats 5-10 less losses ............ Were probably in 1st place, or at least tied ........
I hate this Organization. BUT LOOK AT THE MONEY WE SAVED THIS YR
a.) the sox have NEVER EVER EVER EVER had a shot at Rogers. He doesn't want to come here. Didn't 2 years ago, and this offseason he basically ONLY wanted to go to Texas.

b.) the plan at the beginning of the season was NOT to use Diaz. Yes Wright was probably a bad idea from day one (though he ended up being HURT), but you imply that we thought Diaz was going to make the opening day roster, which was never really even expected.

We only considered Diaz a fifth starter 1/4 of the way through the year when Wright was hurt and Diaz was pitching lights out in AA. So by then, do you really think we could have gotten Kenny Rogers?


This was not your best post, though JR is cheap.

Iguana775
09-01-2004, 03:12 PM
why not just throw the kid out there? does he still think the sox have a chance?

Fungo
09-01-2004, 03:18 PM
Looks like Ozzie won't be starting Felix Diaz again:

"That's take five for Felix."

and

"To me, he's not going to be in the big leagues as a starter unless he comes with something (other than a fastball and changeup)"


So basically Ozzie has determined that after 5 spot starts in the majors that Feliz can't be a starter but he is willing to stick with Borchard no matter how poorly he plays. What is the equivalent of 5 starts in terms of major league at bats? Or better yet, how soon before we see Ozzie give up on Borchard.

Personally, I think Diaz should start the rest of the year, if for no other reason then we have nothing else and I don't want to risk Garcia.

But if Ozzie has already given up on the kid, then I hope they trade him soon. I'd like to see him do well somewhere else. Then Felix could become the poster boy for the Sox player development system.


Bob
Bob, we agree on something!! This is an absolute bozo comment by Guillen. I understand his frustrations with the results, but exactly what does he expect when this kid has been jerked around all year and has never had a chance to get into any sort of rhythm at the big league level? The guy acts like we've got a dozen Mark Mulder's down on the farm. Ozzie, this isn't Atlanta or Florida. The season is over as far as the playoffs go, shut Garcia down if his arm is still bothering him and give Diaz an extended look. If the kid fails after that tryout, then I'll agree. Take five, what a crock.

cwsox
09-01-2004, 06:10 PM
I've seen enough of Ozzie, more than enough

mdep524
09-01-2004, 06:33 PM
I'll agree that Diaz has been simply awful in his spot starts, but this is a classless move by Ozzie and the Sox. Don't insult the kid because you put him in a position to fail, take responsibility as an organization for putting him, unprepared, in that position.

Plus, now you've hurt this kid's self-confidence AND trust in the Sox AND loyalty to the Sox by making that flip comment and undermining him. That's just bad business and bad baseball.

Paulwny
09-01-2004, 06:37 PM
I guess we're now seeing, when things go bad, the real Ozzie.

batmanZoSo
09-01-2004, 09:15 PM
Looks like Ozzie won't be starting Felix Diaz again:

"That's take five for Felix."

and

"To me, he's not going to be in the big leagues as a starter unless he comes with something (other than a fastball and changeup)"


So basically Ozzie has determined that after 5 spot starts in the majors that Feliz can't be a starter but he is willing to stick with Borchard no matter how poorly he plays. What is the equivalent of 5 starts in terms of major league at bats? Or better yet, how soon before we see Ozzie give up on Borchard.

Personally (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=410,28180399,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,1), I think Diaz should start the rest of the year, if for no other reason then we have nothing else and I don't want to risk Garcia.

But if Ozzie has already given up on the kid, then I hope they trade him soon. I'd like to see him do well somewhere else. Then Felix could become the poster boy for the Sox player development system.


Bob
There's no comparing hitting and pitching, those are two completely different beasts. If a pitcher is just throwing a fastball and a changeup, then yeah he's not gonna amount to a good starter.

SOXSINCE'70
09-01-2004, 09:28 PM
Looks like Ozzie won't be starting Felix Diaz again:

"That's take five for Felix."

and

"To me, he's not going to be in the big leagues as a starter unless he comes with something (other than a fastball and changeup)"


So basically Ozzie has determined that after 5 spot starts in the majors that Feliz can't be a starter but he is willing to stick with Borchard no matter how poorly he plays. What is the equivalent of 5 starts in terms of major league at bats? Or better yet, how soon before we see Ozzie give up on Borchard.

Personally, I think Diaz should start the rest of the year, if for no other reason then we have nothing else and I don't want to risk Garcia.

But if Ozzie has already given up on the kid, then I hope they trade him soon. I'd like to see him do well somewhere else. Then Felix could become the poster boy for the Sox player development system.


Bob
What do you expect when Reinsdork and his investors believe a pennant is for the birds?? The investors should go around chanting "cheap,cheap,cheap" all day.:(: :(: :(:

Mohoney
09-01-2004, 10:55 PM
Yes, Felix Diaz was done a disserviceby putting him in the majors this year. Yes, Ozzie is out of line saying this stuff in the press.

However, it's a good sign that they are finally ready to stop the bleeding on this kid's development by not leading him to the slaughterhouse every five days.

I_Liked_Manuel
09-02-2004, 01:12 AM
I've seen enough of Ozzie, more than enough
that makes two of us

gosox41
09-02-2004, 01:38 PM
Bob, we agree on something!! This is an absolute bozo comment by Guillen. I understand his frustrations with the results, but exactly what does he expect when this kid has been jerked around all year and has never had a chance to get into any sort of rhythm at the big league level? The guy acts like we've got a dozen Mark Mulder's down on the farm. Ozzie, this isn't Atlanta or Florida. The season is over as far as the playoffs go, shut Garcia down if his arm is still bothering him and give Diaz an extended look. If the kid fails after that tryout, then I'll agree. Take five, what a crock.
But I would bet that Borchard is in the Sox starting OF next year, even if he hits below .200 this year. Shows you what atheltic ability and $5 mill. gets you.


Bob

Soxzilla
09-02-2004, 01:40 PM
that makes two of us
that makes three of us.

When can we give pena an interview.:smile:

gosox41
09-02-2004, 01:40 PM
There's no comparing hitting and pitching, those are two completely different beasts. If a pitcher is just throwing a fastball and a changeup, then yeah he's not gonna amount to a good starter.
Then why bring him up in the first place?

And yes, if you think this is going to come full circle on KW and his inability to draft and develop talent, you are correct.



Bob

gosox41
09-02-2004, 01:43 PM
I'll agree that Diaz has been simply awful in his spot starts, but this is a classless move by Ozzie and the Sox. Don't insult the kid because you put him in a position to fail, take responsibility as an organization for putting him, unprepared, in that position.

Plus, now you've hurt this kid's self-confidence AND trust in the Sox AND loyalty to the Sox by making that flip comment and undermining him. That's just bad business and bad baseball.
I agree. Felix did something right in the minors. It isn't his fault that KW can't find a capable starting pitcher and is forced to use him. But it doesn't help that he keeps getting sent up and down and shifted around. Let him get settled in and see how he does. 5 starts doesn't tell anything. Why bother bringing him up if KW and Ozzie thought he wasn't going to be any good to begin with?



Bob

Wealz
09-02-2004, 01:57 PM
Diaz wasn't anything special when the Sox acquired him from the Giants. That he was traded for Lofton should tell you enough. Just like the Sox organization loved to talk up Willie Harris. You don't get a major league starter in exchange for Chris Singleton. In other words don't ever believe Kenny's hype.

Fungo
09-03-2004, 09:54 AM
From today's Trib...

With Garcia unavailable Sunday, the Sox will turn to Felix Diaz, whom Guillen indicated wouldn't get another start after giving up six runs in five-plus innings Tuesday. "It's Diaz's turn," Guillen said. "At that point it will be Take Six."
I wish someone was keeping count of Ozzie's takes. What a tool.

balke
09-03-2004, 10:19 AM
With Garcia unavailable Sunday, the Sox will turn to Felix Diaz, whom Guillen indicated wouldn't get another start after giving up six runs in five-plus innings Tuesday. "It's Diaz's turn," Guillen said. "At that point it will be Take Six."
It was only a matter of time. How low on confidence does that kid have to be right now? Ozzie's such a moron lately.

Paulwny
09-03-2004, 12:05 PM
OZ says the kid shouldn't start another game yet he's starting. I often wonder how often KW calls the shots. This may not have been Ozzie's decision.

Baby Fisk
09-03-2004, 12:08 PM
Wow. How deep of an acrimonious pit is this team going to sink in the next 4 weeks? :(:

mdep524
09-03-2004, 12:08 PM
It was only a matter of time. How low on confidence does that kid have to be right now? Ozzie's such a moron lately.
I really hope Diaz pitches really solid on Sunday. He's facing the doormat of the AL West- the Mariners. The only thing I can say in his defense right now is that his "spot starts" have been against some pretty good offenses: Cleveland (twice), the Cubs (twice), Anaheim, Baltimore, Oakland.

I would love to see him go out there relaxed on Sunday and really pitch well. 6 IP, 1 ER. Then what woud Ozzie's reaction be?

balke
09-03-2004, 12:13 PM
OZ says the kid shouldn't start another game yet he's starting. I often wonder how often KW calls the shots. This may not have been Ozzie's decision.
I would imagine he has little to say about Borchard or Diaz. He's not the one calling these players up. The brass wants Borchard to turn it around at least a little bit so this organization can save face. They probably hope the same for Diaz, or just realize he's about our only real option. God only knows who Ozzie would send out there if it was up to him. Probably go to the 3-man (grili buerhle contreras) and tell pitchers to pitch tough.

gosox41
09-03-2004, 02:41 PM
It was only a matter of time. How low on confidence does that kid have to be right now? Ozzie's such a moron lately.
Ozzie's been a moron for awhile, since his playing days. He's always running his yap. Now he's in a position of leadership, start acting like one..

Ozzieball in general seemed to be a myth. The excitement of the first part of the year is way gone. Most knew Uribe and Harris weren't going to stay hot forever. Now that there are 2 major injuries and the scrubs have come down to earth with a thud Ozzie has had to face adversity as a manager for the first time. And he does it by ripping on his players to the media and making snide comments.

What a leader!!!

But at least KW hired someone similar to himself to manage the team.


Bob

batmanZoSo
09-03-2004, 02:56 PM
Then why bring him up in the first place?

And yes, if you think this is going to come full circle on KW and his inability to draft and develop talent, you are correct.



Bob

Don't you think Borchard's presence has just a little influence from higher up in the organization? I think he sucks, but the facts are he's a number one pick and he was given 5 million dollars to sign. They're going to give him every chance possible. So, for that reason alone, you shouldn't wonder why Borchard is getting more slack than guys like Diaz. Besides, Borchard is merely struggling (mightily) while Diaz is showing with his arsenal of two pitches that he can never be a starter. With Borchard, you really can't be certain at this point. There was nothing wrong with Ozzie's statement. A starter throwing a fastball and change and nothing else is like an everyday hitter who can't hit righties.

balke
09-03-2004, 03:08 PM
Ozzie's been a moron for awhile, since his playing days. He's always running his yap. Now he's in a position of leadership, start acting like one..
.....Ozzie has had to face adversity as a manager for the first time. And he does it by ripping on his players to the media and making snide comments.

What a leader!!!


Bob

I missed this article a couple days ago about Lee's return.



Ozzie Guillen surprisingly mentioned Lee was out there on a trial basis, despite his .303 average, 24 home runs and 83 RBIs. Of course, Guillen's wry commentary dripped with sarcasm "We will see what Carlos can do," Guillen said with a mischievous smile. "My 'B' team played pretty well yesterday."


it went on to say:
When Spring Training 2005 rolls around in February, Guillen wants both Thomas and Ordonez back in his lineup. But he also wants a slightly different look to the core group that has won one American League Central title since 1999.

Why didn't he mention Clee, Is that a hint Lee will be dealt? We've got outfield woes as it is. I guess if the deal is right, but if Maggs really isn't coming back, and you're subtracting Lee, and Frank is a question mark with his foot... Looks like we'll have 5 Ozzie Guillen's in that lineup (minus Rowand and Thomas and PK from that list).

career Ozzie-ball #'s:
.264 average .287 OBP .338 Slg%
Look at dem gloves though!

Hangar18
09-03-2004, 03:10 PM
That's just bad business and bad baseball.


:reinsy " Watch yourself bub, or I'll get rid of Nancy Faust
and let her end up with the Cubs"

MisterB
09-03-2004, 03:50 PM
Don't you think Borchard's presence has just a little influence from higher up in the organization? I think he sucks, but the facts are he's a number one pick and he was given 5 million dollars to sign. They're going to give him every chance possible. So, for that reason alone, you shouldn't wonder why Borchard is getting more slack than guys like Diaz. Besides, Borchard is merely struggling (mightily) while Diaz is showing with his arsenal of two pitches that he can never be a starter. With Borchard, you really can't be certain at this point. There was nothing wrong with Ozzie's statement. A starter throwing a fastball and change and nothing else is like an everyday hitter who can't hit righties.
I don't see how Borchard's performance thus far makes him any more worthy of regular playing time than Diaz' 2-pitch arsenal does. BTW, Borchard isn't 'merely struggling' - he can't hit major league pitching. He couldn't even hit AAA pitching with authority (even in his 3rd time around the league).

gosox41
09-03-2004, 04:29 PM
I don't see how Borchard's performance thus far makes him any more worthy of regular playing time than Diaz' 2-pitch arsenal does. BTW, Borchard isn't 'merely struggling' - he can't hit major league pitching. He couldn't even hit AAA pitching with authority (even in his 3rd time around the league).

But he's got the tools to be a superstar. :tongue:


Bob

Foulke29
09-03-2004, 05:25 PM
Ozzie's been a moron for awhile, since his playing days. He's always running his yap. Now he's in a position of leadership, start acting like one..

Ozzieball in general seemed to be a myth. The excitement of the first part of the year is way gone. Most knew Uribe and Harris weren't going to stay hot forever. Now that there are 2 major injuries and the scrubs have come down to earth with a thud Ozzie has had to face adversity as a manager for the first time. And he does it by ripping on his players to the media and making snide comments.

What a leader!!!

But at least KW hired someone similar to himself to manage the team.


Bob
Amen brother - look what KW's comments on Rauch got us in trade! :bandance:

Freaking hell! I'm drinking tonight! :gulp:

batmanZoSo
09-03-2004, 05:41 PM
I don't see how Borchard's performance thus far makes him any more worthy of regular playing time than Diaz' 2-pitch arsenal does. BTW, Borchard isn't 'merely struggling' - he can't hit major league pitching. He couldn't even hit AAA pitching with authority (even in his 3rd time around the league).
He had 16 homers in less than half a season down there. In 01 he hit 27 and drove in 98. Another year he got hurt. That's asinine.

MisterB
09-03-2004, 06:09 PM
He had 16 homers in less than half a season down there. In 01 he hit 27 and drove in 98. Another year he got hurt. That's asinine.Yet Diaz' 10-2 record and 2.97 era mean nothing...:?:

I don't really see a difference here. Diaz put up very good numbers in AAA facing inferior batters and did so despite having only 2 good pitches. Borchard put up good numbers against inferior pitching and did so despite poor strike zone judgement and trouble making contact. Frankly considering the bandbox they played in I'd expect Borchard to have big HR numbers, but a .266 BA in AAA isn't that impressive.

cwsox
09-04-2004, 11:00 PM
:reinsy " Watch yourself bub, or I'll get rid of Nancy Faust
and let her end up with the Cubs"
after the cubs signed Harry, they made an offer to Nancy -

Nancy was forever grateful because oy gave her more bargaining power for where she wanted to be and the Sox were receptive because they couldn't take the PR blow of losing both

Nancy's attendance is Ripken-esque and she is the most continuous public presence the Sox have had

she is a treasure - and one of the nicest people ever too

Mohoney
09-05-2004, 07:21 PM
I would love to see him go out there relaxed on Sunday and really pitch well. 6 IP, 1 ER. Then what woud Ozzie's reaction be?
Uh...wow.

Miss Cleo? Is that you?

mmmmmbeeer
09-05-2004, 07:40 PM
Appears that you guys were right, Ozzie doesn't know what he's doing when he uses negative reinforcement.

Fungo
09-05-2004, 11:04 PM
Appears that you guys were right, Ozzie doesn't know what he's doing when he uses negative reinforcement.mmmmmmmmmmmNO. Ozzie isn't that smart.

balke
09-06-2004, 10:24 AM
mmmmmmmmmmmNO. Ozzie isn't that smart.
HOw can you say that, You've seen how Garland and Borchard have turned it around now that Ozzie's used that negative reinforcement of his. Just think how better Diaz would've looked, had Ozzie gotten his way, and prevented Diaz from starting the rest of the season. CY YOUNG!! hello!