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View Full Version : Sox Can't Afford to Pay Konerko And Lee


DickAllen72
08-31-2004, 10:34 PM
I like Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko, but they just make too much money. According to a website I came across that lists all major league player's salaries, Carlos is making as much as Ichiro this year. Konerko makes $1.5million more!

If we are going to improve next year, we either have to have a payroll equal to teams like the Yankees, Red Sox or Cubs (not gonna happen) or we have to get rid of these two contracts. $16-18million is too much to pay for a LF and a 1B.

Carl Everett is a good replacement for Lee in Left at half the price and we already have him. Gload is dirt cheap at 1B and is an excellent defensive first baseman and although not the hitter Konerko is, he can probably hit for a decent average with a little bit of power and he can run fairly well. Plus he's a lefty who hits lefties very well, over .500 last time I heard.

Now with the money saved from Lee and Konerko, we can go out and not only get Pavano, which is a must, but ALSO someone like Odelis Perez or maybe even Carpenter. That allows us to trade Garland who will probably be making around $4million next year. We can then maybe afford to add a guy like Urbina to the bullpen.

We still haven't even figured on whom we can acquire in the trades for Konerko and Lee. A guy I'd love to get would be Chone Figgins who makes around $300,000 and can play either 3B or CF, moving Rowand to RF. Other guys to target would be versatile less expensive guys like Catalonotto, Mackowiak, etc.

If we're going to throw big bucks around, do it on a superstar up the middle like a Renteria or a Beltran. But that's not likely.

At any rate, we need to improve our pitching plus improve team speed, defense up the middle and strike out less. Getting rid of Valentin and his $5million also helps there.

We'll never be able to get the dominant pitching staff we need to carry us deep into the playoffs while we're paying a huge chunk of our payroll on corner players whose main reason for commanding a high salary is hitting home runs.

kittle42
08-31-2004, 10:39 PM
:reinsy

"I am so glad you bought the company line!"

mike squires
08-31-2004, 10:42 PM
I made the same comment to a guy at work today. Lee or Konerko will be gone by next year.

MRKARNO
08-31-2004, 10:42 PM
We'll never be able to get the dominant pitching staff we need to carry us deep into the playoffs while we're paying a huge chunk of our payroll on corner players whose main reason for commanding a high salary is hitting home runs. And you'll never have enough run support for those starters to get us anywhere either.....

What's your beef with Lee and Konerko? Lee is an absolute BARGAIN at 7 mil or whatever he'll be next year. They don't just hit home runs. Both of them can get on base at a fairly good clip (.360 is respectable, especially when you have Thomas in the same lineup) and hit for power.

I'll listen to arguements for getting rid of one to get a great SP in return, but getting rid of both is shortsighted because you need to be able to score runs.

And also, how is this arguement any different from your earier thread? Was a whole new thread seperate for you to say the same thing again?

bigfoot
08-31-2004, 10:45 PM
I like Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko, but they just make too much money. According to a website I came across that lists all major league player's salaries, Carlos is making as much as Ichiro this year. Konerko makes $1.5million more!

If we are going to improve next year, we either have to have a payroll equal to teams like the Yankees, Red Sox or Cubs (not gonna happen) or we have to get rid of these two contracts. $16-18million is too much to pay for a LF and a 1B.

Carl Everett is a good replacement for Lee in Left at half the price and we already have him. Gload is dirt cheap at 1B and is an excellent defensive first baseman and although not the hitter Konerko is, he can probably hit for a decent average with a little bit of power and he can run fairly well. Plus he's a lefty who hits lefties very well, over .500 last time I heard.

Now with the money saved from Lee and Konerko, we can go out and not only get Pavano, which is a must, but ALSO someone like Odelis Perez or maybe even Carpenter. That allows us to trade Garland who will probably be making around $4million next year. We can then maybe afford to add a guy like Urbina to the bullpen.

We still haven't even figured on whom we can acquire in the trades for Konerko and Lee. A guy I'd love to get would be Chone Figgins who makes around $300,000 and can play either 3B or CF, moving Rowand to RF. Other guys to target would be versatile less expensive guys like Catalonotto, Mackowiak, etc.

If we're going to throw big bucks around, do it on a superstar up the middle like a Renteria or a Beltran. But that's not likely.

At any rate, we need to improve our pitching plus improve team speed, defense up the middle and strike out less. Getting rid of Valentin and his $5million also helps there.

We'll never be able to get the dominant pitching staff we need to carry us deep into the playoffs while we're paying a huge chunk of our payroll on corner players whose main reason for commanding a high salary is hitting home runs.
Why would a high-profile F/A pitcher(Pavano etc), choose to come to a team that has just dumped Maggs, Lee, Konerko; replaced them with Crazy Carl, Gload, Catalonotto; dumped Valentin, replaced by ____ ,nobody so far. Trade Garland for Urbina(do we need another closer?)
Even the best pitchers like to see runs on the board. They aren't always great.

Jerry, sell the team to Scott Boras and have him bring Beltre and Beltran as the ChiSox Killer B's!

JB98
08-31-2004, 10:47 PM
I like Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko, but they just make too much money. According to a website I came across that lists all major league player's salaries, Carlos is making as much as Ichiro this year. Konerko makes $1.5million more!

If we are going to improve next year, we either have to have a payroll equal to teams like the Yankees, Red Sox or Cubs (not gonna happen) or we have to get rid of these two contracts. $16-18million is too much to pay for a LF and a 1B.

Carl Everett is a good replacement for Lee in Left at half the price and we already have him. Gload is dirt cheap at 1B and is an excellent defensive first baseman and although not the hitter Konerko is, he can probably hit for a decent average with a little bit of power and he can run fairly well. Plus he's a lefty who hits lefties very well, over .500 last time I heard.

Now with the money saved from Lee and Konerko, we can go out and not only get Pavano, which is a must, but ALSO someone like Odelis Perez or maybe even Carpenter. That allows us to trade Garland who will probably be making around $4million next year. We can then maybe afford to add a guy like Urbina to the bullpen.

We still haven't even figured on whom we can acquire in the trades for Konerko and Lee. A guy I'd love to get would be Chone Figgins who makes around $300,000 and can play either 3B or CF, moving Rowand to RF. Other guys to target would be versatile less expensive guys like Catalonotto, Mackowiak, etc.

If we're going to throw big bucks around, do it on a superstar up the middle like a Renteria or a Beltran. But that's not likely.

At any rate, we need to improve our pitching plus improve team speed, defense up the middle and strike out less. Getting rid of Valentin and his $5million also helps there.

We'll never be able to get the dominant pitching staff we need to carry us deep into the playoffs while we're paying a huge chunk of our payroll on corner players whose main reason for commanding a high salary is hitting home runs.

I'm glad you're not GM.

Gload, Everett, Catalanotto, Figgins and Mackowiak? That lineup won't win 70 games regardless of who is pitching.

MRKARNO
08-31-2004, 10:56 PM
I'm glad you're not GM.

Gload, Everett, Catalanotto, Figgins and Mackowiak? That lineup won't win 70 games regardless of who is pitching.
Bingo. The Dodgers had incredible pitching last year, but they couldnt score runs! What was the end result of their season? No playoffs! There's this myth going around that you can win a world series with a smallball offense that doesnt hit homeruns and mostly pitching. This simply is not true. You have to have guys that are good at scoring runs, not making (productive or not) outs. The World Series winning team is going to have good pitching of course, but it's going to be able to score as well.

NonetheLoaiza
08-31-2004, 11:00 PM
Konerko OR Lee will be gone. No way both.

DickAllen72
08-31-2004, 11:02 PM
And you'll never have enough run support for those starters to get us anywhere either.....

What's your beef with Lee and Konerko? Lee is an absolute BARGAIN at 7 mil or whatever he'll be next year. They don't just hit home runs. Both of them can get on base at a fairly good clip (.360 is respectable, especially when you have Thomas in the same lineup) and hit for power.

I'll listen to arguements for getting rid of one to get a great SP in return, but getting rid of both is shortsighted because you need to be able to score runs.

Carlos Lee is, and has been one of my favorite players on the team. I have been one to defend him because I think he hustles out there. He's one of our best hitters and one of our better base stealers. But he makes as much as Ichiro this year and I think he's due to make something like $8 or 8.5million next year.

Konerko I always liked until last year, but this year he has made a believer out of me again. I thought for sure he was going to go into another 2 for 50 streak after the all star break, but it seems that he has finally figured it out. And I think he's pretty good defensively too. But he makes $8million this year and due to make more next year.

Now I'd love to add a couple of good free agent pitchers, upgrade at either 3B or SS (with Uribe moving to third) get a RF and still keep Paulie and Carlos. But I was sitting around figuring out what that would cost. You'd be in the salary ballpark of the big spending teams, and you know that's not going to happen.

I hate the Cubs, but I've been watching what keeps them in contention. Despite having a garbage bullpen and not scoring a lot of runs consistently, the thing they have going for them is when healthy they throw a pitcher out there every day that is capable of shutting the other team down.

I want to see the Sox have a starting staff like that, and with the three pitchers we have now, it's in reach by adding two FA's that are curently available. We'd also be able to acquire a much better bulpen than the Cubs have. This would assure us a good chance to win every day.

Adding lower priced higher average hitters and guys with speed to the lineup with Frank Thomas, Carl Everett, and Aaron Rowand would be enough to score the runs needed with that pitching staff. While lacking the power we've become used to, there wouldn't be many automatic outs in the lineup.

bigfoot
08-31-2004, 11:16 PM
Who will play SS, RF, LF, 1b that will defend and hit and won't cost the salaries that are so worrisome in this thread? Uribe at 3b......good luck. Those other teams, Angels, etc aren't about to let their good lower priced talent go elsewhere just because the Sox happen to want them. As states earlier 70 wins might be as much as great pitching could make possible. Look at those clowns on the northside. when they don't hit/score. Ask Matt Clement's agent how much he's going to scream at the GM's during F/A negotiations that Clement's 3.3 era should have got him 20 wins this year, not a losing record.

DickAllen72
08-31-2004, 11:18 PM
Why would a high-profile F/A pitcher(Pavano etc), choose to come to a team that has just dumped Maggs, Lee, Konerko; replaced them with Crazy Carl, Gload, Catalonotto; dumped Valentin, replaced by ____ ,nobody so far. Trade Garland for Urbina(do we need another closer?)
Even the best pitchers like to see runs on the board. They aren't always great.

Jerry, sell the team to Scott Boras and have him bring Beltre and Beltran as the ChiSox Killer B's!

You sign Pavano, you sign Perez, then you TRADE (not dump) Konerko and Lee. You don't give them away.

I never said trade Garland for Urbina. Urbina's a free agent. I said you trade Garland and you can afford to add an Urbina.

Look, if you think the Sox are going to add quality FA's next year while paying Lee, Konerko, Valentin, etc. you're dreaming.

Besides, I'd rather have a Figgins at 3B than Crede. I'd rather have Uribe at SS than Valentin. I'd rather have a rotation of Pavano, Garcia, Buehrle, Perez and Contreras with Gload at first and Carl in LF than a rotation with Garland and Diaz as #4 & 5 with Konerko at first and Lee in Left.

Again, I'd rather they add the pitchers and keep Paulie and Carlos, but no way will they spend that kind of money.

balke
09-01-2004, 12:45 AM
Bingo. The Dodgers had incredible pitching last year, but they couldnt score runs! What was the end result of their season? No playoffs! There's this myth going around that you can win a world series with a smallball offense that doesnt hit homeruns and mostly pitching. This simply is not true. You have to have guys that are good at scoring runs, not making (productive or not) outs. The World Series winning team is going to have good pitching of course, but it's going to be able to score as well.
Yeah, we gotta find a balance there to at least keep enough numbers to get us 6-9 runs fairly regularly.

I can't wait to see what really goes down. I think this thread neglects to mention we not only want a starter, we also want a bullpen. There's so many holes in this team, we at least have a strong Offense. But I'd hate to see what's brewing in kenny's mind... no minor league pitchers... little starting pitching... no bullpen... average D... lots of big names. Maybe everyone's right, maybe this is the firesale year.

JB98
09-01-2004, 01:22 AM
Yeah, we gotta find a balance there to at least keep enough numbers to get us 6-9 runs fairly regularly.

I can't wait to see what really goes down. I think this thread neglects to mention we not only want a starter, we also want a bullpen. There's so many holes in this team, we at least have a strong Offense. But I'd hate to see what's brewing in kenny's mind... no minor league pitchers... little starting pitching... no bullpen... average D... lots of big names. Maybe everyone's right, maybe this is the firesale year.
I don't see how you can conduct a firesale when you don't have ANYBODY who is big-league ready in your farm system. If you're going to sell off veterans for prospects, you have to have some building blocks at AAA who are ready to step in, fill some spots, learn at the big-league level and keep the team competitive in the short-term. We simply don't have anybody who deserves that opportunity. Theoretically, we could trade this core and rebuild the entire team through free agency. However, that's not a good way to rebuild, nor is it consistent with the White Sox organization's philosophy. It will be an interesting offseason. I don't know what they'll do, but I have a bad feeling that KW is going to overreact to what he's seen during this disappointing second half and purge everybody. I think this offseason will ultimately define whether he is a success or a failure as a GM. Fans on this site can afford to overreact. KW can't. He has to act smartly now, or else we'll be in serious trouble both short-term and over the long haul.

GiveMeSox
09-01-2004, 02:03 AM
First of all you need to get your figures straight. Lee is slated to make 8 mil yes, but only 7.50 count against payroll (the cap) due to deffered payments and with Paulie his 8.75 mil only 7.67 count against payroll due to the same reason. Often we see backloaded contracts, but in essence is uniform payments under the contract year length and deffered payments there after. So for our LF and 1B in 2005 we will spend 15.17 mil. Here is the source on salary and payroll info http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_12_28_dugoutdollars_archive.html

Now look at there value. Both konerko and lee are going to bat anywhere between .270 and .300, hit 30+ homers, and drive in 100+ rbi. Put that along with Frank as your DH and possibly Everett in the outfield with Rowand and you have pretty solid core right there. You are getting production from you 7 and 8 mil guys. If you went any cheaper the production would drop off. A JD drew or Jermaine Dye will probably cost more than our in house guys. At this point there is no reason to get rid of any of them. With valentin gone, ELo gone, and Maggs gone this team will have some $ to spend on on-base % gusy, defense, and speed to go before and after our big rbi and homer guys. Thats how american league teams are built. Imagine a lineup with Harriston JR and Guzman ahead of Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Everett. Then you got rowand, uribe, and hopefully a new catcher. I think thats it right there along with a few more arms for the pen and a new starter.

Man Soo Lee
09-01-2004, 02:56 AM
First of all you need to get your figures straight. Lee is slated to make 8 mil yes, but only 7.50 count against payroll (the cap) due to deffered payments and with Paulie his 8.75 mil only 7.67 count against payroll due to the same reason. Often we see backloaded contracts, but in essence is uniform payments under the contract year length and deffered payments there after. So for our LF and 1B in 2005 we will spend 15.17 mil.
There is no "cap". The 7.5 and 7.67 figures are the average annual value of the contracts, which are used for calculating the payroll for luxury tax purposes.

The Sox will actually pay $8 mil to Lee and $8.75 mil to Konerko next year.

Deadguy
09-01-2004, 03:04 AM
I would hope that they get rid of one of the two, but not both. Personally, I hope Konerko takes a hike, since Lee is the better athlete of the two, and more reliable. Lee is also having the better season and the Sox have a club option at 8.5 million in 2006, while Konerko is under contract for just one more season. Konerko's higher HR and RBI numbers might make him more attractive in terms of trade bait.

samram
09-01-2004, 08:18 AM
Now with the money saved from Lee and Konerko, we can go out and not only get Pavano, which is a must, but ALSO someone like Odelis Perez or maybe even Carpenter. That allows us to trade Garland who will probably be making around $4million next year. We can then maybe afford to add a guy like Urbina to the bullpen.

We still haven't even figured on whom we can acquire in the trades for Konerko and Lee. A guy I'd love to get would be Chone Figgins who makes around $300,000 and can play either 3B or CF, moving Rowand to RF. Other guys to target would be versatile less expensive guys like Catalonotto, Mackowiak, etc.
Am I the only one who thinks Chris Carpenter is this year's version of 2003 Esteban Loaiza? I can see him being really bad again next year.

As for Figgins, there's no way Anaheim's trading him. They're going to lose Glaus and replace him with McPherson (I would think), and they will probably trade Kennedy, Eckstein, Salmon (who may be a FA), or Guillen, so Figgins will be the leadoff hitter and play one of those spots. He's not coming here.

gosox41
09-01-2004, 08:23 AM
I don't see how you can conduct a firesale when you don't have ANYBODY who is big-league ready in your farm system. If you're going to sell off veterans for prospects, you have to have some building blocks at AAA who are ready to step in, fill some spots, learn at the big-league level and keep the team competitive in the short-term. We simply don't have anybody who deserves that opportunity. Theoretically, we could trade this core and rebuild the entire team through free agency. However, that's not a good way to rebuild, nor is it consistent with the White Sox organization's philosophy. It will be an interesting offseason. I don't know what they'll do, but I have a bad feeling that KW is going to overreact to what he's seen during this disappointing second half and purge everybody. I think this offseason will ultimately define whether he is a success or a failure as a GM. Fans on this site can afford to overreact. KW can't. He has to act smartly now, or else we'll be in serious trouble both short-term and over the long haul.
I think the Sox are already in serious trouble with KW as GM.


Bob

bigfoot
09-01-2004, 08:28 AM
Am I the only one who thinks Chris Carpenter is this year's version of 2003 Esteban Loaiza? I can see him being really bad again next year.

As for Figgins, there's no way Anaheim's trading him. They're going to lose Glaus and replace him with McPherson (I would think), and they will probably trade Kennedy, Eckstein, Salmon (who may be a FA), or Guillen, so Figgins will be the leadoff hitter and play one of those spots. He's not coming here.
Nice catch, Samram, CC will amaze even Larussa and Duncan if he can double up another stellar season.
The likes of Pavano/OPerez et.al. must have very low expectations of salaries to be F/A signings by JR. Though I really don't understand why the posters here should be concerned with JR's payroll. As fans, should we just be worried about the end result, not how it came to be? JR will either buy a team capable of winning or not. If he pleads poverty, then the public will judge him with their feet and wallets.

duke of dorwood
09-01-2004, 08:34 AM
They have plenty of $ to pay both of them.

Dont let the ownership brainwash you.

nccwsfan
09-01-2004, 08:44 AM
Am I the only one who thinks Chris Carpenter is this year's version of 2003 Esteban Loaiza? I can see him being really bad again next year.
You can put that in the bank- no way he duplicates his 2004 numbers.

samram
09-01-2004, 08:48 AM
They have plenty of $ to pay both of them.

Dont let the ownership brainwash you.
They can pay both of them- I think the question is whether they should, and the answer is no, assuming they can acquire solid talent in return making the team better. Reading Ozzie's quotes everyday in the papers gives a lot of insight into his thoughts about this team, and it's pretty clear he doesn't like its composition, and part of the changes will be the departure of one of these guys, unless payroll is increased significantly.

JRIG
09-01-2004, 08:49 AM
Ken Rosenthal says it might be Lee. (http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2846766)

ma_deuce
09-01-2004, 08:49 AM
They have plenty of $ to pay both of them.

Dont let the ownership brainwash you.
:reinsy

"You are getting very sleepy... at the snap of my fingers, you will believe that I will actually invest more money on the team if attendance rises... and after attendance rises, that I cannot afford to pay Konerko and Lee... *snap*"

...by the way, that "snap" was the sound of my spirit breaking...

*sigh*

Deuce

DickAllen72
09-01-2004, 04:25 PM
I figure if the Sox bring all their position players back except Maggs and Valentin, get rid of Schoeneweis and sign Pavano for around $9million, their team payroll will be around $78million.

Do you think JR is going to spend that much? If he does, we still haven't addressed our bullpen problems. Adding a good reliever pushes the team salary up over $80million. Does anyone see JR OKing that?

If we bring Maggs back at $11million (assuming he's healthy), add Pavano and a reliever, and keep the rest of the team intact (except of course for Valentin--good riddance) we become a bona fide WS contender but now we're over $90million. That's what I'd really like to see happen. Hopefully someone can convince JR that this would be good business!

Flight #24
09-01-2004, 05:12 PM
If we bring Maggs back at $11million (assuming he's healthy), add Pavano and a reliever, and keep the rest of the team intact (except of course for Valentin--good riddance) we become a bona fide WS contender but now we're over $90million. That's what I'd really like to see happen. Hopefully someone can convince JR that this would be good business!
I didn't think there was any chance of Maggs coming back, but in the paper today they said he might actually accept arbitration (where he could make a minimum of a 10% decrease in salary, IIRC - or $12.6mil).

The question is - will someone offer him more than that on a long-term deal. Out of hte usual suspects, I can think of only 2 that might: Mets & Dodgers. Both will have to temper their offers by the fact that in the NL he can't DH so he's more likely to get reinjured. The others aren't a good fit. Bosox have more pressing needs with SP, C, SS and a viable OF with Manny, Damon, Nixon. Yanks already have Sheff & Matsui and need SP. Angels have Vlady, Garrett, Guillen already. Cubs have Alou & Sammy and needs at SS, bullpen, and need to prepare for Prior's likely landmark deal.

If maggs accepts arbitration, I'd say it's 99% certain that we deal Konerko/Lee (more likely Koney), and use that $$$ to get a cheaper #4 starter than Pavano along with some bullpen help and maybe a cheaper 2B option like Catalanotto, Bellhorn, Loretta, etc.

And FWIW - I think the only way we even sniff a payroll in the 80-mil range is if JR approves a 1-yr deal for Maggs. It'd give the team another realistic shot at the WS, and if things go south, it's not a long-term commitment and there are ways to cut costs if necessary (trading Maggs, Koney, even Contreras since they'll all be at most 1.5 years from FA).

misty60481
09-01-2004, 05:13 PM
Remember teams like Yankees, Indians, even Cardinals are looking for pitching and Pavano, Perez are top of the list so I dont think we have a ghost of a chance at getting them. If you were top flite pitcher and had teams like Yanks wanting you would you want to play for JR especially since Ozzie wants to play Ozzie ball oe smallball?????

Lets get serious we are not the most attractive team right now...

Flight #24
09-01-2004, 05:48 PM
Remember teams like Yankees, Indians, even Cardinals are looking for pitching and Pavano, Perez are top of the list so I dont think we have a ghost of a chance at getting them. If you were top flite pitcher and had teams like Yanks wanting you would you want to play for JR especially since Ozzie wants to play Ozzie ball oe smallball?????

Lets get serious we are not the most attractive team right now...
I don't matter. As always, unless there's some really unique situation (i.e. Andy Pettite wanting to go home to Houston), the players will all of a sudden find a significant yearning to play in the town that coincidentally happens to offer them the most $$$. If that's the Sox, they'll come here. If not, they won't.

That combined with the other moves that need to be made lead me to believe that the Sox will be shooting for a mid-tier guy like Perez much more than the top tier of available guys like Pavano, Pedro, Clement.

Paulwny
09-01-2004, 05:55 PM
I don't matter. As always, unless there's some really unique situation (i.e. Andy Pettite wanting to go home to Houston), the players will all of a sudden find a significant yearning to play in the town that coincidentally happens to offer them the most $$$. If that's the Sox, they'll come here. If not, they won't.

That combined with the other moves that need to be made lead me to believe that the Sox will be shooting for a mid-tier guy like Perez much more than the top tier of available guys like Pavano, Pedro, Clement.

Agree, the sox will go after a mid tier pitcher. This type of pitcher will only command a 2-3 yr contract from any team. A-One pitchers will command money and yrs. We all know how JR feels about long term contracts and pitchers.