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View Full Version : Thought for those that didn't believe in Fogg


Foulke29
08-31-2004, 05:13 PM
Josh Fogg (http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/request.dll?PLAYERCARD&nPlayerID=6770), who is almost certainly hiding an arsenal of mirrors in his cap. How else to explain Fogg's success, despite marginal supporting numbers? Fogg worked 6.2 scoreless innings on Monday, allowing just five hits and lowering his ERA to 2.62 in his last 10 starts. He hasn't struck out more than five batters in a game since before you heard of Ashley Simpson, and he gives up a lot of hits, but Fogg keeps getting outs.

I know he's not great, but he's better than a 'throw in' for a guy that nearly lost 20 games.

:bandance:

kittle42
08-31-2004, 05:19 PM
:threadsucks

I can see it ten years from now...."Kip Wells, blah, blah, Josh Fogg, blah, blah, Jeremy Reed, blah, blah...."

Can everyone shut up?

pudge
08-31-2004, 05:33 PM
Can everyone shut up?
they'll shutup after the sox get to a world series, so I wouldn't count on it anytime soon.

jeremyb1
08-31-2004, 05:35 PM
Well a 4.7 ERA in the NL isn't particularly good. Fogg is never going to be any better than an adequate number five. Fans on this board want to crucify Garland who is substantially better so I don't think you're going to find too many willing to shed tears over Fogg's departure. Wells is a different story.

MRKARNO
08-31-2004, 06:07 PM
Wait, wait a second. Are we talking about the Josh Fogg whose WHIP on the year is 1.49? I think that's a lot more telling than anything when talking about a pitcher who can't strike people out. He's been getting lucky (and when you still have a 4.71 ERA, that's not a good thing either). Fogg is garbage. Wells looked a lot more like the guy we gave up this year, but it will take a few more years to see which is the real Kip Wells, the one that posted 3.4ish ERAs in back to back years or the one that posted a 4.5 this year

NonetheLoaiza
08-31-2004, 06:36 PM
hindsight is always 20/20. A 4.7 ERA in the NL is not the same as a 4.7 ERA in the AL. Fogg on any other team is a long reliever at best. As for Kip Wells, KW took a risk on getting Todd Ritchie...it failed miserably. It's been 3 years now...and the trade is on the opposite spectrum of say, a bagwell-larry anderson trade. KW made a bad trade, it happens.

chisoxt
08-31-2004, 06:40 PM
:threadsucks

I can see it ten years from now...."Kip Wells, blah, blah, Josh Fogg, blah, blah, Jeremy Reed, blah, blah...."

Can everyone shut up?
And to add further to your forcast...."Sox 55 Years Without a Pennant and Counting, Blah, Blah' Blah"

Daver
08-31-2004, 06:56 PM
Wells is a different story.
So what is the name of the stat for crapping down your leg every time you let a couple guys get on base?

Kip Wells did a lot of that in a Sox uniform.

santo=dorf
08-31-2004, 07:00 PM
:threadblows: :whocares

Get over it already.

munchman33
08-31-2004, 07:02 PM
So what is the name of the stat for crapping down your leg every time you let a couple guys get on base?

Kip Wells did a lot of that in a Sox uniform.
Well put. I thought he might have gotten out of that habit in Pittsburgh, but he's been doing it again all year this year, making me think his last two seasons were an aberition. I don't miss him at all.

santo=dorf
08-31-2004, 07:03 PM
KW made a bad trade, it happens.
http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/archive/index.php/t-13330.html

Williams said he appreciated Schueler's assistance, particularly when Williams was farm director.

"Absolutely, Schu helped me,'' Williams said. "We worked closely together then while showing me a great amount of what goes into scouting, and then again in the offseason as general manager. He was right in the middle of preparation for the '02 season.''

Schueler outlined his concerns to Reinsdorf after deciding to move up his departure date before the end of October. He stressed the importance of background checks on players under consideration to be acquired who either have character flaws or have seen better days.

He excluded pitcher Todd Ritchie, who was acquired by Williams last winter from the Pirates in the controversial deal that sent Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Sean Lowe to Pittsburgh."I was behind that trade,'' Schueler said, "although I didn't feel it was necessary for us to give them the kid [Fogg]. We felt we could straighten out Todd's mechanics, but it didn't happen. I still think he can be a good pitcher.''

chisoxt
08-31-2004, 07:38 PM
So what is the name of the stat for crapping down your leg every time you let a couple guys get on base?

Kip Wells did a lot of that in a Sox uniform.
I believe that the names are as follows.....Felix Fiaz, John Rausch, Josh Stewart, and Arnie Munoz.

Iguana775
08-31-2004, 09:16 PM
:threadblows: :whocares

Get over it already.
THAT'S A BIG DITTO FROM ME.

NonetheLoaiza
08-31-2004, 09:53 PM
http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/archive/index.php/t-13330.html
i was not aware of the circumstances behind that trade. the point is that that trade hasnt really hurt us.

jeremyb1
08-31-2004, 11:00 PM
Well put. I thought he might have gotten out of that habit in Pittsburgh, but he's been doing it again all year this year, making me think his last two seasons were an aberition. I don't miss him at all.

Wells had a finger injury he tried to pitch through in May and June and his numbers reflect that. However, if you can sleep at night by telling yourself that two seasons and not 2 of his last 18 months of big league pitcher were flukes go for it.

jeremyb1
08-31-2004, 11:02 PM
So what is the name of the stat for crapping down your leg every time you let a couple guys get on base?

Kip Wells did a lot of that in a Sox uniform.

Wow. He wasn't lights out as a 24 year old?! I'd forgotten about that. Good thing we dealt him. By the way, what's the scouting evaluation that makes Kip Wells a less valuable pitcher than Scott Schoenewies, Felix Diaz, Todd Ritchie, and some of the other lesser starters we've thrown out there the last three years?

fquaye149
09-01-2004, 01:12 AM
Wow. He wasn't lights out as a 24 year old?! I'd forgotten about that. Good thing we dealt him. By the way, what's the scouting evaluation that makes Kip Wells a less valuable pitcher than Scott Schoenewies, Felix Diaz, Todd Ritchie, and some of the other lesser starters we've thrown out there the last three years?
the one that says ss, felix, and todd pitching in pittsburgh would have probably put up reasonably similar numbers to wells. . .oh and they hadn't burned any white sox bridges at their time of acquisition unlike wells at his time of departure.

thepaulbowski
09-01-2004, 07:34 AM
Wow. He wasn't lights out as a 24 year old?! I'd forgotten about that. Good thing we dealt him. By the way, what's the scouting evaluation that makes Kip Wells a less valuable pitcher than Scott Schoenewies, Felix Diaz, Todd Ritchie, and some of the other lesser starters we've thrown out there the last three years?

Some people love to beat a dead horse. Move On.

soxtalker
09-01-2004, 08:19 AM
i was not aware of the circumstances behind that trade. the point is that that trade hasnt really hurt us. What do you mean "hasn't really hurt us"? That was absolutely a disaster.

The discussion here has focused on one of the popular topics often debated -- how good Wells and Fogg really were. They would have served us better than Ritchie, though they have had only limited success. More important, Wells and Fogg had significant trade value at the time and could have been used to obtain other talent. It is interesting that Schueler's comments indicate that KW could possibly have made the deal for less. (This could have been sour grapes, though it probably reflects the difference in GM's negotiating styles and the value each placed on minor league talent.)

Perhaps the biggest downside of this trade was the extended use of Ritchie. Like Koch, he was kept in his role far longer than would probably have been the case if the trade hadn't been so expensive and high profile.

The trade is long past, and continually debating it won't change anything. We're at a pretty low point right now, however, and this trade was one of the things that brought us here. As far as using it to debate KW's future -- well, I don't know how useful it is. I've never been much of a KW supporter, but this was one of his earliest trades. He was learning. What I care about now is how he well he can do in current trades. He seems to have done better lately, though I still rue the loss of Reed and Olivo in the Garcia trade.

kittle42
09-01-2004, 09:46 AM
I am amazed there aren't people on this board still ripping into Sox management for trading Sammy Sosa for George Bell.

Can't we complain about *this* season? Jeez.

Brian26
09-01-2004, 01:03 PM
I am amazed there aren't people on this board still ripping into Sox management for trading Sammy Sosa for George Bell.

Can't we complain about *this* season? Jeez.

I hope most people recognize that trade as being a decent trade at the time. Bell was a bat we needed to protect Frank in the lineup in '92 and '93. Sosa's emergence as a real power hitter didn't happen until '96 or '97. Even knowing what we know today, I'd still do that trade because it gave us the best chance to get to the World Series in '92 and '93. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.