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View Full Version : Diaz has no business being recalled


BainesHOF
08-31-2004, 01:24 PM
In a season full of jokes, this is the biggest one...unless he was brought up to pitch batting practice for us to boost the confidence of Crede and Borchard.

santo=dorf
08-31-2004, 01:26 PM
In a season full of jokes, this is the biggest one...unless he was brought up to pitch batting practice for us to boost the confidence of Crede and Borchard.
Who should start for Garcia then? Grili is pitching tomorrow.

hold2dibber
08-31-2004, 01:26 PM
In a season full of jokes, this is the biggest one...unless he was brought up to pitch batting practice for us to boost the confidence of Crede and Borchard.
Why? What a ridiculous position to take. The season is OVER. Diaz has been awesome at AAA. He has been yanked around when he's been here so far this year (big pressure situations, never knowing how long he'll be around, being brought up just in time for his start, etc.). But he has the kind of AAA stats that usually translate into some degree of success at the major league level. Since the season is over anyway, why not give him some successive MLB starts to see what he can do, get him acclimated to the bigs and boost his confidence. What do they have to lose?

thepaulbowski
08-31-2004, 01:32 PM
:threadsucks

Only because there is no "this thread is stupid" tag.

LuvSox
08-31-2004, 01:34 PM
Why? What a ridiculous position to take. The season is OVER. Diaz has been awesome at AAA. He has been yanked around when he's been here so far this year (big pressure situations, never knowing how long he'll be around, being brought up just in time for his start, etc.). But he has the kind of AAA stats that usually translate into some degree of success at the major league level. Since the season is over anyway, why not give him some successive MLB starts to see what he can do, get him acclimated to the bigs and boost his confidence. What do they have to lose?
Amen

BainesHOF
08-31-2004, 01:40 PM
Diaz has been absolutely awful at the major league level in multiple chances. It's clear he currently doesn't have the ability to get major league hitters out. He isn't going to magically get better just by trotting him out there. He needs to make major changes.

This call-up is indicative of the way the Sox have mishandled a multitude of promotions in recent years. The organization simply hopes prospects will produce at the big league level. There needs to be much better talent assessment and teaching in the minor leagues. Just because a minor leaguer puts up good numbers does not mean he is ready or even capable of success in the major leagues. This is particular true with pitchers.

With the Sox, it almost seems that the worst you do at the major league level, the more chance you get to play.

There's been far too many games that have been over before they really started because bush leaguers we bring up get bombed immediately. Last I checked, the Sox charge a pretty penny for tickets to all games. The least they can do is put a professional product on the field.

duke of dorwood
08-31-2004, 01:52 PM
An organization drafts a player-develops them at several levels. When there is success at a level-they must be moved up before written off as some here seem to be advocating. A professional product? What have we been seeing?

This team needs new life-that life is waiting to be called up and can succeed with extended time here-that time begins now.

CubKilla
08-31-2004, 02:37 PM
Diaz has been absolutely awful at the major league level in multiple chances. It's clear he currently doesn't have the ability to get major league hitters out. He isn't going to magically get better just by trotting him out there. He needs to make major changes.But he has stones!!!!! :rolleyes:

Flight #24
08-31-2004, 02:47 PM
Diaz has been absolutely awful at the major league level in multiple chances. It's clear he currently doesn't have the ability to get major league hitters out. He isn't going to magically get better just by trotting him out there. He needs to make major changes.

So the way he's going to improve is by spending MORE time in AAA, where he's already dominated? Or maybe it's just that he'll never be a very good major league pitcher, because you really can tell how good someone's going to be based on 4-5 starts under difficult conditions (yoyo-ing up and down to the bigs, starting on short rest, getting called up the day of his start, etc.).

Hey - Diaz needs to show more than he has, but you can't determine his future based on what he's done so far. He's had some flashes in the bigs, and has proven everything he has to in AAA. It's time to give him a shot to settle in, get a few starts in a row, and see if he can adjust at this level.

We have exactly what to lose again?

Brian26
08-31-2004, 03:08 PM
But he has stones!!!!! :rolleyes:

Actually, last time Diaz got lit up at home for 2 or 3 homers in the first inning, I recall Hawk being pretty pissed that Diaz didn't have (or didn't show) any stones whatsoever by backing their hitters off the plate. I think it was against the Indians.

balke
08-31-2004, 03:31 PM
Actually, last time Diaz got lit up at home for 2 or 3 homers in the first inning, I recall Hawk being pretty pissed that Diaz didn't have (or didn't show) any stones whatsoever by backing their hitters off the plate. I think it was against the Indians.
Diaz gives himself too small of a strike zone. I like a pitcher who's in there to throw strikes, but Diaz doesn't spread the corners enough. ANd no, he never backs the batter off the plate.

I've said it before, he looks great out there, he's got fast pitches with movement, he just isn't major league ready. Confidence and smarts are what he's lacking. People know his fastball will be in the strikezone when he throws it, so the mostly sit on it til they can blast it out of the park, thus 11 HR through 27 innings.

OurBitchinMinny
08-31-2004, 03:33 PM
Actually, last time Diaz got lit up at home for 2 or 3 homers in the first inning, I recall Hawk being pretty pissed that Diaz didn't have (or didn't show) any stones whatsoever by backing their hitters off the plate. I think it was against the Indians.
who the hell cares what hawk thinks. I dont need hawk to tell me what to think. He is just an old man who is not down on the field. No different from any of the other blowhards.

ChiSoxBobette
08-31-2004, 04:08 PM
In a season full of jokes, this is the biggest one...unless he was brought up to pitch batting practice for us to boost the confidence of Crede and Borchard.
So who do we bring up to pitch, the guy has very good stats in the minors so I think he deserves the chance.

I_Liked_Manuel
08-31-2004, 04:34 PM
we've probably got a dozen guys with decent stats in the minors. diaz has been given his opportunity to pitch this year and has shown that he can give up the longball. that's it. even when the guy gets somebody out, which is rare, the ball is scalded right to one of our outfielders who is already playing deep.

what some of you fail to understand is that when diaz falls behind in a count in AAA, he falls back on his 'out' pitch- his fastball. you cant do that in the majors. this guy flat out does not understand how to pitch. i'd rather have him figure it out at AAA than up in the majors. i guarantee this guy gets rocked for a minimum of 6 in 3 innings of work.

hold2dibber
08-31-2004, 04:49 PM
Diaz has been absolutely awful at the major league level in multiple chances. It's clear he currently doesn't have the ability to get major league hitters out. He isn't going to magically get better just by trotting him out there. He needs to make major changes.

This call-up is indicative of the way the Sox have mishandled a multitude of promotions in recent years. The organization simply hopes prospects will produce at the big league level. There needs to be much better talent assessment and teaching in the minor leagues. Just because a minor leaguer puts up good numbers does not mean he is ready or even capable of success in the major leagues. This is particular true with pitchers.

With the Sox, it almost seems that the worst you do at the major league level, the more chance you get to play.

There's been far too many games that have been over before they really started because bush leaguers we bring up get bombed immediately. Last I checked, the Sox charge a pretty penny for tickets to all games. The least they can do is put a professional product on the field.
Diaz has already proved he can dominate at AAA. What is he going to learn by continuing to do so? He clearly has the stuff to be an effective big league pitcher. What he doesn't have is the know how to use his stuff effectively at the big league level. He won't learn that in AAA - he'll learn that by pitching to major league hitters. I don't care if Diaz gets creamed the rest of the year if that's what it takes to teach him how to get major league hitters out. This year is done already; time to start preparing for next year. The way to do that, at least in Diaz's case, is to let him pitch every 5th day for the rest of the season.

RustyKuntz
08-31-2004, 05:37 PM
There is a bright side to this. The Sox released Mike Jackson to make room. :bandance:

balke
08-31-2004, 05:53 PM
This really is one of the few times I agree w/ putting Diaz in there. We won't win with anyone else anyhow. I'd rather see Diaz get lit-up then make Garcia pitch with tightness. Diaz has nowhere to go but up, and the majority of his problems have to do with him leaving the ball up and out over the plate, when he clearly has the ability to keep it low, and hit the strike zone. He needs to realize how good he is, and get smarter. I say put Sandy in there with him if you can.


Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some more Cotts. Long relief, building to maybe a starter later in the season. I think Cotts is getting to a point where he can start pitching better. With some Starts this season, maybe we can slowly work him into the lineup next season, or at least try.

Lem_Siddons
08-31-2004, 07:42 PM
If at first and second and third time you don't succeed pray for injuries and a terrible season to get a fourth and fifth and sixth chance.

BainesHOF
09-01-2004, 04:25 AM
He clearly has the stuff to be an effective big league pitcher.
B.S.

It's disappointing that so many of you think Diaz has any chance of succeeding the way he currently throws. It's worse that some baseball people in the organization think he does, too.

Please don't point to his minor league numbers as a defense of him at the major league level. He gets lit up every time he pitches in the majors. There's a reason for that, folks.

He's failing miserably at the major league level despite his sparkling numbers in the minors for the same reason some pitchers in college with ERAs close to 5.00 get drafted in the first round. It's all about having the chance to get big league hitters out given your stuff and the way you use it.

thepaulbowski
09-01-2004, 08:24 AM
B.S.

It's disappointing that so many of you think Diaz has any chance of succeeding the way he currently throws. It's worse that some baseball people in the organization think he does, too.

Please don't point to his minor league numbers as a defense of him at the major league level. He gets lit up every time he pitches in the majors. There's a reason for that, folks.

He's failing miserably at the major league level despite his sparkling numbers in the minors for the same reason some pitchers in college with ERAs close to 5.00 get drafted in the first round. It's all about having the chance to get big league hitters out given your stuff and the way you use it.
:chickenlittle .

Iguana775
09-01-2004, 08:45 AM
B.S.

It's disappointing that so many of you think Diaz has any chance of succeeding the way he currently throws. It's worse that some baseball people in the organization think he does, too.

Please don't point to his minor league numbers as a defense of him at the major league level. He gets lit up every time he pitches in the majors. There's a reason for that, folks.

He's failing miserably at the major league level despite his sparkling numbers in the minors for the same reason some pitchers in college with ERAs close to 5.00 get drafted in the first round. It's all about having the chance to get big league hitters out given your stuff and the way you use it.
What's the point? might as well throw him out there and hope that he can learn to pitch with the Sox. not like we are in a pennent race.

hold2dibber
09-01-2004, 08:53 AM
B.S.

It's disappointing that so many of you think Diaz has any chance of succeeding the way he currently throws. It's worse that some baseball people in the organization think he does, too.

Please don't point to his minor league numbers as a defense of him at the major league level. He gets lit up every time he pitches in the majors. There's a reason for that, folks.

He's failing miserably at the major league level despite his sparkling numbers in the minors for the same reason some pitchers in college with ERAs close to 5.00 get drafted in the first round. It's all about having the chance to get big league hitters out given your stuff and the way you use it.
Give me a break. Diaz has shown flashes of being a solid major league pitcher (a win vs. the Cubs, effective in the middle innings yesterday, etc.). You say "It's disappointing that so many of you think Diaz has any chance of succeeding the way he currently throws." -- well that's the point exactly. The way he currently throws works against minor leaguers but not against major leaguers; his stuff is good enough to get major league hitters out; for him, it's all about location and confidence. He needs to learn that against major league hitting. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But why not give him the chance? You just want to give up on the guy, or send him back to the minors where he has already been dominant, for what, so the Sox can finish with 83 wins instead of 79 this year? Who cares. A lot of effective major league pitchers start out horribly but then learn what it takes at this level. Examples:

Maddux had a 5.52 era in his first major league stint, then a 5.61 ERA his first full year.

Glavine had an ERA of 5.51 in his first major league experience.

Sirotka had a 7.18 ERA in his second stint with the Sox

Schilling had a 9.82 ERA in his first stint with a 6.23 in his second.

Johan Santana had a 6.49 ERA his first season.

The list goes on and on. I don't know if Diaz will ever be a good major league pitcher. But I do know that taking the ball every 5th day for the next month will help both him and the Sox determine what he needs to do to become a good major leaguer and/or whether he realistically ever will.

So, again, what do you have to lose by giving him the chance?

ma_deuce
09-01-2004, 08:55 AM
Diaz has gone from suck to blow. Then again, so has the entire team... so who cares who they send up to pitch.

*sigh*

Deuce

nccwsfan
09-01-2004, 09:00 AM
B.S.

It's disappointing that so many of you think Diaz has any chance of succeeding the way he currently throws. It's worse that some baseball people in the organization think he does, too.

Please don't point to his minor league numbers as a defense of him at the major league level. He gets lit up every time he pitches in the majors. There's a reason for that, folks.

He's failing miserably at the major league level despite his sparkling numbers in the minors for the same reason some pitchers in college with ERAs close to 5.00 get drafted in the first round. It's all about having the chance to get big league hitters out given your stuff and the way you use it.
Good points, Baines HOF, but here's the thing- the White Sox are out of the race, so what does it hurt to throw them out there and see what they can do? For 6 weeks of otherwise meaningless baseball, if players like Diaz, Stewart, Grilli, and Borchard are out there playing, what does it matter? Maybe one of them will catch on towards the end of September and show glimpses of major league talent. Maybe.

SouthSideIrish
09-01-2004, 03:04 PM
Give me a break. Diaz has shown flashes of being a solid major league pitcher (a win vs. the Cubs, effective in the middle innings yesterday, etc.). You say "It's disappointing that so many of you think Diaz has any chance of succeeding the way he currently throws." -- well that's the point exactly. The way he currently throws works against minor leaguers but not against major leaguers; his stuff is good enough to get major league hitters out; for him, it's all about location and confidence. He needs to learn that against major league hitting. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But why not give him the chance? You just want to give up on the guy, or send him back to the minors where he has already been dominant, for what, so the Sox can finish with 83 wins instead of 79 this year? Who cares. A lot of effective major league pitchers start out horribly but then learn what it takes at this level. Examples:

Maddux had a 5.52 era in his first major league stint, then a 5.61 ERA his first full year.

Glavine had an ERA of 5.51 in his first major league experience.

Sirotka had a 7.18 ERA in his second stint with the Sox

Schilling had a 9.82 ERA in his first stint with a 6.23 in his second.

Johan Santana had a 6.49 ERA his first season.

The list goes on and on. I don't know if Diaz will ever be a good major league pitcher. But I do know that taking the ball every 5th day for the next month will help both him and the Sox determine what he needs to do to become a good major leaguer and/or whether he realistically ever will.

So, again, what do you have to lose by giving him the chance?
</POST>

BigEdWalsh
09-01-2004, 05:19 PM
I'm confused about Munoz dominating at AAA. His Charlotte record SUCKS. 5.68 E.R.A. is GOOD?! 81 hits in 69 innings is DOMINANT?! I believe he did well at AA, but for Charlotte he has been pretty roughed up.

He's not ready for this. He doesn't deserve this, nor do we.:angry:

balke
09-01-2004, 05:23 PM
I'm confused about Munoz dominating at AAA. His Charlotte record SUCKS. 5.68 E.R.A. is GOOD?! 81 hits in 69 innings is DOMINANT?! I believe he did well at AA, but for Charlotte he has been pretty roughed up.

He's not ready for this. He doesn't deserve this, nor do we.:angry:

Everytime he's on the mound he's got this grin on his face like it's all a joke to him. he did it at that All-star game too. I don't like this kid. I'd rather see Borchard pitch.

MisterB
09-01-2004, 07:45 PM
I'm confused about Munoz dominating at AAA. His Charlotte record SUCKS. 5.68 E.R.A. is GOOD?! 81 hits in 69 innings is DOMINANT?! I believe he did well at AA, but for Charlotte he has been pretty roughed up.

He's not ready for this. He doesn't deserve this, nor do we.:angry:
Who said anything about Munoz?

Diaz was 10-2, 2.97 era at Charlotte.

BainesHOF
09-02-2004, 02:32 PM
At least Ozzie agreed with me after Diaz' last start:

"I don't think he can be in the big leagues as a starting guy unless he comes up with something better," Ozzie said. "If you're going to be a fastball-changeup guy, you have to command and throw strikes and make the ball sink a little bit. In my opinion, I don't think he should be starting in the big leagues."