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View Full Version : Joe B.'s Ceiling? = Adam Dunn?


Tekijawa
08-31-2004, 10:24 AM
This is the BEst case scenario I can see for the type of player that Joe B can be and I still think that this might be a stretch... they both have a low average with tons of power. Thoughts?

JRIG
08-31-2004, 10:26 AM
This is the BEst case scenario I can see for the type of player that Joe B can be and I still think that this might be a stretch... they both have a low average with tons of power. Thoughts?
Not even close. Adam Dunn will walk 100 times this year. Borchard may walk 100 times in his first 5 years in MLB. That's a huge, huge difference in producion between the two of them.

Tekijawa
08-31-2004, 10:31 AM
That's why I said Ceiling and not just "="

kittle42
08-31-2004, 10:41 AM
This is the BEst case scenario I can see for the type of player that Joe B can be and I still think that this might be a stretch... they both have a low average with tons of power. Thoughts?
My thought is that this question may only come as the result of a 503-foot home run.

bobj4400
08-31-2004, 10:41 AM
borchard's ceiling is at about Dunn's knees. Borchard is a bust. We need to accept this and move on.

JRIG
08-31-2004, 10:42 AM
That's why I said Ceiling and not just "="
A ceiling is something that can be attained. Joe Borchard will never sniff the level of production Dunn has this year -- .273/.400/.595

Tekijawa
08-31-2004, 10:59 AM
My thought is that this question may only come as the result of a 503-foot home run.and the fact that early on in his still young career that Dunn also struck out like it was his job, hit at best around .250.

gosox41
08-31-2004, 11:05 AM
This is the BEst case scenario I can see for the type of player that Joe B can be and I still think that this might be a stretch... they both have a low average with tons of power. Thoughts?
I'd be thrilled if LTP can be as good as Adam Dunn. .995 OPS including a .400 OBP sounds good to me.



Bob

JRIG
08-31-2004, 11:08 AM
and the fact that early on in his still young career that Dunn also struck out like it was his job, hit at best around .250.
Dunn is also only 24 with 3 1/2 ML seasons under his belt and is now at star status. Borchard is 25 with a dismal major league career so far. But he did hit a 500-foot home run.

fquaye149
08-31-2004, 11:18 AM
all right, well i would be thrilled to have adam dunn on our squad, and i'd love it if joe could match his potential , but all walks aside,let's not act like dunn is jesus and joe can never sniff him.

the man is pushing sammyesque k numbers. he's far from ted williams.

Vsahajpal
08-31-2004, 11:28 AM
Not even close. Adam Dunn will walk 100 times this year. Borchard may walk 100 times in his first 5 years in MLB. That's a huge, huge difference in producion between the two of them.


Borchard's walk rate isn't the problem; I believe he is 11 in just over 100 AB this year which is actually good.

SoxxoS
08-31-2004, 11:35 AM
If the distance of a home run counts for more runs, then Borchard might be able to be a fringe starter in the major leagues.

munchman33
08-31-2004, 11:52 AM
borchard's ceiling is at about Dunn's knees. Borchard is a bust. We need to accept this and move on.
Please. Its foolish to give up on him this early. Aaron Rowand had way more opportunity to prove himself, and looked just as inept for large portions of it. And look at him.

pudge
08-31-2004, 12:12 PM
Please. Its foolish to give up on him this early. Aaron Rowand had way more opportunity to prove himself, and looked just as inept for large portions of it. And look at him.
I completely disagree. I don't ever think Rowand has looked as inept as Borchard, and Rowand showed more promise at a younger age.

Borchard is 25 or 26 yrs old folks. This is not a spring chicken we're talking about anymore.

hold2dibber
08-31-2004, 12:24 PM
I guess the absolute best you can possibly hope for with respect to Borchard is that he reaches Dunn's level of productivity; but it seems highly unlikely. Borchard already is older than Dunn and he has not even come close to Dunn's level of productivity.

In Dunn's 1st season, he had 244 ABs and finished with 19 HRs, a .371 OBP and a .949 OPS.

Borchard now has 189 career ABs, with 6 HRs, a .244 OBP and an OPS of .530.

With that said, Borchard didn't become a full time baseball player until a few years ago, so he may yet develop into a decent offensive force. I think it is too early to simply dismiss him. I also think its way too late to not concede that his window of opportunity is closing and that he needs to start showing some signs of improvement.

SoxxoS
08-31-2004, 12:52 PM
With that said, Borchard didn't become a full time baseball player until a few years ago, so he may yet develop into a decent offensive force. I think it is too early to simply dismiss him. I also think its way too late to not concede that his window of opportunity is closing and that he needs to start showing some signs of improvement.
No offense you you personally dibber, but I am getting sick of this argument. It's not like he played football his whole life, and never played baseball. Sure, he never played baseball full-time. Great. But he did play if well enough to play for one of the best college teams in the country. That means he had to be pretty damn good in high school to get recruited...also although he didn't play it "full-time" he practiced with the team and did everything a baseball player usually does when he was on the team. It's not like he never picked up a baseball in his life until the Sox drafted him.

There are quite a few guys in the NFL and NBA where if you gave them 150 swings in BP...they can hit a 504 home run. Even a blind squirrel gets a nut.

beckett21
08-31-2004, 01:03 PM
I will leave the talent evaluation to those more knowledgable than I, like Randar and Daver and the like. But my biggest fear is that Joe Borchard = Rob Deer.


Somebody please tell me I am wrong.

:o:

bobj4400
08-31-2004, 01:05 PM
I will leave the talent evaluation to those more knowledgable than I, like Randar and Daver and the like. But my biggest fear is that Joe Borchard = Rob Deer.


Somebody please tell me I am wrong.

:o:
I dont like to lie, so I cant help you with that...

TomParrish79
08-31-2004, 01:35 PM
Damn we got a Rob Deer reference.Hit 40 HR's and bat below the mendoza line

SOXit2EM
08-31-2004, 01:48 PM
Now i know this is REALLY far fetched, BUT i do remember Baseball America comparing Borchard to Lance Berkman a few years ago. Only if.

MisterB
08-31-2004, 02:17 PM
Now i know this is REALLY far fetched, BUT i do remember Baseball America comparing Borchard to Lance Berkman a few years ago. Only if.Doesn't speak well to BA's credibility there. Berkman was a much better minor league hitter than Borchard. He hit for higher average, drew walks consistently and struck out less in addition to his power numbers. If that statement was made at draft time it's forgivable I guess, but nothing in JB's performance should suggest that comparison.

Randar68
08-31-2004, 02:31 PM
No offense you you personally dibber, but I am getting sick of this argument. It's not like he played football his whole life, and never played baseball. Sure, he never played baseball full-time. Great. But he did play if well enough to play for one of the best college teams in the country. That means he had to be pretty damn good in high school to get recruited...also although he didn't play it "full-time" he practiced with the team and did everything a baseball player usually does when he was on the team. It's not like he never picked up a baseball in his life until the Sox drafted him.

There are quite a few guys in the NFL and NBA where if you gave them 150 swings in BP...they can hit a 504 home run. Even a blind squirrel gets a nut.
If you have even the faintest idea what the time requirements to play football, let alone QB at a high-major D1 program, let alone add 3 months of college baseball to the equation, you'd know that while baseball players are playing, practicing, improving their fundamentals year-round, playing in the Cape or other summer leagues, etc etc, Joe was in the weight room, in his play book, or on the field for Spring practice and summer 7-on-7's.

If you don't think playing football took time away from developing his skills at baseball, I want whatever it is you're smoking. That was for 3 years of his college career, when most college prospects go from undrafted or mid-round talent out of HS to top 10 round material. Joe was a consensus top 10 pick and slid because nobody thought he'd sign.

The football mentality is something that is extremely difficult to overcome. If you're struggling, everything is faster, harder, work longer, go go go .... Baseball, you have to relax to be successful. That takes years to change. Joe has made a lot more contact over the last few weeks than in his previous stints, despite what his low BA might suggest.

Be patient. People who use his age as a crutch are silly. He was basically as raw as a HS player when he was drafted, so I'm not sure why people think 4 years is an unusual amount of time to start to see him contribute to an MLB club?

Are people that bitter about a signing bonus? Is that HIS fault? Sheeesh, if that's the case, that's sheer pettiness.

SoxxoS
08-31-2004, 02:39 PM
If you have even the faintest idea what the time requirements to play football, let alone QB at a high-major D1 program, let alone add 3 months of college baseball to the equation, you'd know that while baseball players are playing, practicing, improving their fundamentals year-round, playing in the Cape or other summer leagues, etc etc, Joe was in the weight room, in his play book, or on the field for Spring practice and summer 7-on-7's.

If you don't think playing football took time away from developing his skills at baseball, I want whatever it is you're smoking. That was for 3 years of his college career, when most college prospects go from undrafted or mid-round talent out of HS to top 10 round material. Joe was a consensus top 10 pick and slid because nobody thought he'd sign.

The football mentality is something that is extremely difficult to overcome. If you're struggling, everything is faster, harder, work longer, go go go .... Baseball, you have to relax to be successful. That takes years to change. Joe has made a lot more contact over the last few weeks than in his previous stints, despite what his low BA might suggest.

Be patient. People who use his age as a crutch are silly. He was basically as raw as a HS player when he was drafted, so I'm not sure why people think 4 years is an unusual amount of time to start to see him contribute to an MLB club?

Are people that bitter about a signing bonus? Is that HIS fault? Sheeesh, if that's the case, that's sheer pettiness.
My roomates are on the ASU football and golf teams. I know the time requirements.

You make a valid point. However, to generalize all football players as having a football mentality is a fallacy. Everyone is different. Just because one plays football doesn't necessarily mean everything is not harder and faster. It's unique to the individual. That is what makes me nervous about Joe. He does have the talent. No doubt. But that saying the game is "90% mental" is true to a point.

It is obvious Borchard is a little mentally unstable. What he did yesterday is a microcosm of what Joe Borchard is...a long homer and 3 strikeouts.

What do you recommend we do with him? Striking out nearly 30% of the time at the ML level obviously isn't going to cut it. He needs to spend more time in AAA until he is ready...I hope KW doesn't think he is going to be ready next year, even if he gets "hot" these next few weeks.

Randar68
08-31-2004, 03:13 PM
My roomates are on the ASU football and golf teams. I know the time requirements.

You make a valid point. However, to generalize all football players as having a football mentality is a fallacy. Everyone is different. Just because one plays football doesn't necessarily mean everything is not harder and faster. It's unique to the individual. That is what makes me nervous about Joe. He does have the talent. No doubt. But that saying the game is "90% mental" is true to a point.

It is obvious Borchard is a little mentally unstable. What he did yesterday is a microcosm of what Joe Borchard is...a long homer and 3 strikeouts.

What do you recommend we do with him? Striking out nearly 30% of the time at the ML level obviously isn't going to cut it. He needs to spend more time in AAA until he is ready...I hope KW doesn't think he is going to be ready next year, even if he gets "hot" these next few weeks.Joe has been hitting the ball hard generally and taken a good share of walks in his short time here this season. Turning some of those hard outs into hits and some of those K's into balls in play is a big part of that.

Is it unique to the individual? Yeah. However, Joe isn't "mentally unstable" in the least, he just presses and presses and stresses and stresses. You can't do that in baseball. You have to relax. Casey Rogowski was just a HS football players/wrestler, didn't play in college, and a few years later he still battles with the football mentality, it's a daily struggle.

Josh Fields is a real laid-back guy, I don't think he has that over-the-top football mentality that a lot of football players have. How quickly you change your mental approach to the long-season and the game is a big factor in how quickly you progress.

Again, the talent is undoubtedly there, you can't question his bat-speed, and his swing is considerably shorter than 2 years ago. He has a great arm, good speed once he get's moving, he could be a hell of a corner OF'er, one of the best defensive LF'ers in baseball should he play that side. You have to give these guys time. If he hit .260 with a .350 OBP and hit 35 HR's would you be happy?

I don't know the answers to these things, but Joe is a great guy, very honest with himself, very open with other people, knows his strengths and his weaknesses inherently... I give him every chance possible. Getting 50 AB's here and there does not suffice an "opportunity", IMO. He'll get every chance to win a starting spot in Spring Training if he isn't traded, so better get him all the AB's we can. Glad to see Ozzie and Kenny agree with me, anyways.

munchman33
08-31-2004, 03:17 PM
I completely disagree. I don't ever think Rowand has looked as inept as Borchard
You are wrong. Last year he started the season 8 for his first 60, including no homers, only two walks, and two r.b.i.'s. He was actually doing worse than Borchard. WAY WORSE.

gosox41
09-01-2004, 09:00 AM
Joe has been hitting the ball hard generally and taken a good share of walks in his short time here this season. Turning some of those hard outs into hits and some of those K's into balls in play is a big part of that.

Is it unique to the individual? Yeah. However, Joe isn't "mentally unstable" in the least, he just presses and presses and stresses and stresses. You can't do that in baseball. You have to relax. Casey Rogowski was just a HS football players/wrestler, didn't play in college, and a few years later he still battles with the football mentality, it's a daily struggle.

Josh Fields is a real laid-back guy, I don't think he has that over-the-top football mentality that a lot of football players have. How quickly you change your mental approach to the long-season and the game is a big factor in how quickly you progress.

Again, the talent is undoubtedly there, you can't question his bat-speed, and his swing is considerably shorter than 2 years ago. He has a great arm, good speed once he get's moving, he could be a hell of a corner OF'er, one of the best defensive LF'ers in baseball should he play that side. You have to give these guys time. If he hit .260 with a .350 OBP and hit 35 HR's would you be happy?

I don't know the answers to these things, but Joe is a great guy, very honest with himself, very open with other people, knows his strengths and his weaknesses inherently... I give him every chance possible. Getting 50 AB's here and there does not suffice an "opportunity", IMO. He'll get every chance to win a starting spot in Spring Training if he isn't traded, so better get him all the AB's we can. Glad to see Ozzie and Kenny agree with me, anyways.

Hopefully Joe will have it figured out before he turns 30.


Bob

RichFitztightly
09-01-2004, 01:36 PM
I will leave the talent evaluation to those more knowledgable than I, like Randar and Daver and the like. But my biggest fear is that Joe Borchard = Rob Deer.


Somebody please tell me I am wrong.

:o:
I'm not saying you're wrong, but the person I'd equate Borchard with is Russel Branyon, a former Sox killer on Cleveland, currently a Cub killer in Milwaukee. I'd say if we're lucky that's going to be Borchard's ceiling.