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munchman33
08-26-2004, 09:01 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1868729

They've got about a snowball's chance in hell of luring the Expos, but it's cool to see they haven't given up.

Now, if somehow the Expos moved to Portland, I think a realignment is in order. Ever since Selig used his executive privelege to move the Brewers to the NL Central, the alignment's been all out of whack. Here's what I think would make the most sense:

AL West: Mariners, Expos, A's, Angels, Rangers
AL Central: White Sox, Twins, Royals, Tigers, Indians
AL East: Blue Jays, Yankees, Red Sox, O's, Devil Rays

NL West: Padres, Dodgers, Giants, Diamondbacks, Rockies
NL Central: Cardinals, Reds, Brewers, Reds, Flubs
NL East: Mets, Braves, Marlins, Pirates, Phillies

Basically, Pirates move to the East, and the Expos switch to the AL and make it a 5-team division. Having the Pirates and Phillies in the same division would give them more games against each other, and create lots of exciting games for those rival Pittsburgh and Philly fans.


Thoughts?This alignment is impossible. There has to be an even number of teams in both leagues. There's 16 N.L. and 14 A.L. If there's 15 in each league, either everyday there has to be an interleague game or there has to be two teams off. Neither are likely or attractive options.

santo=dorf
08-26-2004, 09:03 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1868729

They've got about a snowball's chance in hell of luring the Expos, but it's cool to see they haven't given up.

Now, if somehow the Expos moved to Portland, I think a realignment is in order. Ever since Selig used his executive privelege to move the Brewers to the NL Central, the alignment's been all out of whack. Here's what I think would make the most sense:

AL West: Mariners, Expos, A's, Angels, Rangers
AL Central: White Sox, Twins, Royals, Tigers, Indians
AL East: Blue Jays, Yankees, Red Sox, O's, Devil Rays

NL West: Padres, Dodgers, Giants, Diamondbacks, Rockies
NL Central: Cardinals, Reds, Brewers, Reds, Flubs
NL East: Mets, Braves, Marlins, Pirates, Phillies

Basically, Pirates move to the East, and the Expos switch to the AL and make it a 5-team division. Having the Pirates and Phillies in the same division would give them more games against each other, and create lots of exciting games for those rival Pittsburgh and Philly fans.


Thoughts?
You need to have an even ammount of teams in each league otherwise you would have to have an interleague series at least once a week. I would like to see the Expos go to Las Vegas and move into the NL West with Pittsburg going to the NL East.

NonetheLoaiza
08-26-2004, 09:17 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1868729

They've got about a snowball's chance in hell of luring the Expos, but it's cool to see they haven't given up.

Now, if somehow the Expos moved to Portland, I think a realignment is in order. Ever since Selig used his executive privelege to move the Brewers to the NL Central, the alignment's been all out of whack. Here's what I think would make the most sense:

AL West: Mariners, Expos, A's, Angels, Rangers
AL Central: White Sox, Twins, Royals, Tigers, Indians
AL East: Blue Jays, Yankees, Red Sox, O's, Devil Rays

NL West: Padres, Dodgers, Giants, Diamondbacks, Rockies
NL Central: Cardinals, Reds, Brewers, Reds, Flubs
NL East: Mets, Braves, Marlins, Pirates, Phillies

Basically, Pirates move to the East, and the Expos switch to the AL and make it a 5-team division. Having the Pirates and Phillies in the same division would give them more games against each other, and create lots of exciting games for those rival Pittsburgh and Philly fans.


Thoughts?
you also cant have two teams named the reds in one division.

munchman33
08-26-2004, 09:52 PM
you also cant have two teams named the reds in one division.
LOL I missed that.

HebrewHammer
08-26-2004, 11:28 PM
They'll put a team in Vegas before they put one in Portland

Kogs35
08-26-2004, 11:54 PM
They'll put a team in Vegas before they put one in Portland
remeber your dealing with bud light here. money talks with him and if there is a new stadium that there going to build and wont cost the new owners anything it wouldnt suprise me to see the new expos called the beavers.

Erik The Red
08-27-2004, 12:58 AM
you also cant have two teams named the reds in one division. Haha, my bad, the 2nd Reds should have been the Astros. Fixed it, thanks.

PINWHEELS
08-27-2004, 09:36 AM
I say just move the Expos to DC, And if anything move the Oakland A's to Portland!

greenpeach
08-27-2004, 12:16 PM
I say just move the Expos to DC, And if anything move the
Oakland A's to Portland!
You may not be for off. The A's have tried for several years now to get the city of Oakland to build them a baseball-only stadium in downtown Oakland. Their efforts have proved fruitless. I wouldn't be shocked to see the A's move to either Sacramento or Portland within the next few years.

Dadawg_77
08-27-2004, 01:13 PM
You may not be for off. The A's have tried for several years now to get the city of Oakland to build them a baseball-only stadium in downtown Oakland. Their efforts have proved fruitless. I wouldn't be shocked to see the A's move to either Sacramento or Portland within the next few years.
Portland = St Petersberg. How many teams got public finance stadiums because of the threat of St. Petersberg?

PINWHEELS
08-27-2004, 01:18 PM
You may not be for off. The A's have tried for several years now to get the city of Oakland to build them a baseball-only stadium in downtown Oakland. Their efforts have proved fruitless. I wouldn't be shocked to see the A's move to either Sacramento or Portland within the next few years.I Know that the A's and the Giants have been at odds for TV viewing rights in the Bay area. Plus moving them to Portland would make the A's and Mariners rival even Greater.

batmanZoSo
08-28-2004, 07:55 PM
This alignment is impossible. There has to be an even number of teams in both leagues. There's 16 N.L. and 14 A.L. If there's 15 in each league, either everyday there has to be an interleague game or there has to be two teams off. Neither are likely or attractive options.
It's simple then--eliminate the Expos and Devil Rays. Two grave mistakes.

JohnBasedowYoda
08-29-2004, 02:43 AM
It's simple then--eliminate the Expos and Devil Rays. Two grave mistakes.

the union should also eliminate wisconsin.

StepsInSC
08-29-2004, 08:52 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1868729
Basically, Pirates move to the East, and the Expos switch to the AL and make it a 5-team division. Having the Pirates and Phillies in the same division would give them more games against each other, and create lots of exciting games for those rival Pittsburgh and Philly fans.


Thoughts?
I don't want the Pirates in the East. There are some great rivalries that exist in the Central.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2004, 09:11 AM
Here's the solution.

Two leagues

+ One playoff round

= Undisputed world champion.

The best solution is the least complicated. All this other **** is just mimmicking the NFL, a sport that couldn't be more different than baseball.

Bud Selig and the rest of you need to just get over it.

:tool
"Okay, I'll buy that... but only if my Brewers get to keep changing leagues!"

Brian26
08-29-2004, 09:26 AM
The best solution is the least complicated. All this other **** is just mimmicking the NFL, a sport that couldn't be more different than baseball.
Tell me about it. All of this BS about 3 tiers of playoffs and weighted home-field advantage for 3 wild card teams in each league. Ugh. Either keep it like it is or go back to the way it was.

StepsInSC
08-29-2004, 09:43 AM
Bud Selig and the rest of you need to just get over it.

I agree with everything else you said, but actually its the people who refuse to accept the fact that this is the way it is who need to "get over it."

Its never going to go back to the way it was. Never.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2004, 09:53 AM
I agree with everything else you said, but actually its the people who refuse to accept the fact that this is the way it is who need to "get over it."

Its never going to go back to the way it was. Never.
Well with that attitude, sure, nothing will ever change.

Let's keep trying to mimmick the NFL. That's the approach that has made baseball into the second-class sport it has become.

Great idea.

:kukoo:

Mohoney
08-29-2004, 10:03 AM
Here's the solution.

Two leagues

+ One playoff round

= Undisputed world champion.

The best solution is the least complicated. All this other **** is just mimmicking the NFL, a sport that couldn't be more different than baseball.

Bud Selig and the rest of you need to just get over it.

:tool
"Okay, I'll buy that... but only if my Brewers get to keep changing leagues!"And kiss those late September attendance hikes goodbye? Kiss the playoff revenues goodbye?

No way these greedy Judases agree to this.

santo=dorf
08-29-2004, 11:35 AM
And kiss those late September attendance hikes goodbye? Kiss the playoff revenues goodbye?

No way these greedy Judases agree to this.
September? Some teams like this year's Diamondbacks wouldn't draw in July.
:veeck
"If you marketed to the traditionalists, you'd be out of business by mother's day."

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2004, 12:29 PM
September? Some teams like this year's Diamondbacks wouldn't draw in July. :rolleyes:
Indeed... so why are you and others here making excuses for the failure of the current format? 162 games worth of absolutely nothing getting decided... nothing unless you count the also-ran Cubs making the playoffs, too? Gimme a break...

You want real changes to bring back baseball's popularity? Don't look to the NFL as an example unless you're willing to accept more failure. That's the lesson we've learned the last 35 years... or at least some of us have learned, anyway.

santo=dorf
08-29-2004, 12:39 PM
:rolleyes:
Indeed... so why are you and others here making excuses for the failure of the current format? 162 games worth of absolutely nothing getting decided... nothing unless you count the also-ran Cubs making the playoffs, too? Gimme a break...

You want real changes to bring back baseball's popularity? Don't look to the NFL as an example unless you're willing to accept more failure. That's the lesson we've learned the last 35 years... or at least some of us have learned, anyway.
I like the new format of the playoffs. In 1990 the Sox had a BETTER record than the Red Sox but we sat at home. What about all of those years in which the Sox would win 90+ games and STILL not make it into the playoffs because of the Yankees? Try explaining that to a Cubs fans when they come up with the old "when's the last time the Sox won a playoff series?" crap.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2004, 12:42 PM
In two years the CBA is up. The MLBPA will no longer have any say or legal rights towards contraction.

It will be very interesting to see if MLB finally follows through on their threat from 2002 (i.e. contracting 2 or 4 teams).

Personally I think they will but if they don't then all the world will see that talk in 02 was simply 'posturing.'

In my opinion Tampa Bay and Florida (if they don't get a new stadium deal) will be leaving the ranks. If Florida does have a deal in place, it could be Montreal (if they still haven't been moved), Oakland (if they don't have a new stadium) or Minnesota (ditto)

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2004, 12:47 PM
I like the new format of the playoffs. In 1990 the Sox had a BETTER record than the Red Sox but we sat at home. What about all of those years in which the Sox would win 90+ games and STILL not make it into the playoffs because of the Yankees? Try explaining that to a Cubs fans when they come up with the old "when's the last time the Sox won a playoff series?" crap.Oh brother... if you think the Sox are the only victim of the complaints you've noted above, buddy you haven't been paying attention the last few decades.
:cool:

Baseball's playoff alignment has gotten more and more unfair with every change created the last 35 years. MLB plays 162 games and the meaning of those games keeps getting smaller and smaller -- and then we're bombarded with even more ideas for accelerating that trend even further? What's wrong with this picture?

When baseball's regular season is reduced to 16 games (like the NFL's) or 81 games (like the NBA's and NHL's), I'll be willing to entertain the notion of multiple levels of playoffs as a means to increase the sport's popularity and a great way to determine baseball's champion.

In the meantime, you're just not making any sense with these complaints about current division alignments and unfair playoff formats.

voodoochile
08-29-2004, 12:52 PM
Oh brother... if you think the Sox are the only victim of the complaints you've noted above, buddy you haven't been paying attention the last few decades.

Baseball's playoff alignment has gotten more and more unfair with every change created the last 35 years. MLB plays 162 games and the meaning of those games keeps getting smaller and smaller -- and then we're bombarded with even more ideas for accelerating that trend even further? What's wrong with this picture?

When baseball's regular season is reduced to 16 games (like the NFL's) or 81 games (like the NBA's and NHL's), I'll be willing to entertain the notion of multiple levels of playoffs as a means to increase the sport's popularity and a great way to determine baseball's champion.

In the meantime, you're just not making any sense with these complaints about current division alignments and unfair playoff formats.
I agree with shortening the season, but I think the idea of added levels of playoffs is good. Baseball has been setting attendance records since they added more rounds of playoffs - so popularity is actually up. Baseball probably will never be #1 again because too much of popularity is driven by TV and baseball isn't that much fun to watch on TV. Most football fans can get a kick out of watching a well played football game between almost any two teams, I don't think that is true of baseball, where the game meaning something matters.

More teams in the playoffs, less regular season games. I love it. Now about those unfair schedules...

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2004, 12:58 PM
I agree with shortening the season, but I think the idea of added levels of playoffs is good. Baseball has been setting attendance records since they added more rounds of playoffs - so popularity is actually up. Baseball probably will never be #1 again because too much of popularity is driven by TV and baseball isn't that much fun to watch on TV. Most football fans can get a kick out of watching a well played football game between almost any two teams, I don't think that is true of baseball, where the game meaning something matters.

More teams in the playoffs, less regular season games. I love it. Now about those unfair schedules...C'mon Voodoo, help a brother out and ask me the question you know I'M DYING to answer... you've heard it before, but others haven't... you can do it... come on...

:wink:

voodoochile
08-29-2004, 01:21 PM
C'mon Voodoo, help a brother out and ask me the question you know I'M DYING to answer... you've heard it before, but others haven't... you can do it... come on...

:wink:
Okay, George, tell us... What should baseball do to improve the playoffs?

If you say, "make the All-Star game decide who gets home field in the WS," I am going to be pretty damned disappointed though...:rolleyes:

santo=dorf
08-29-2004, 01:24 PM
Here's a great suggestion from the MLB.com message board.



General (http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/listsf.asp?webtag=ml-mlb&ctx=128) - there should be six new expansion teams.http://acx.prospero.com/dir-app/icon.aspx?realmId=0&iconTypeId=4&iconName=emailSubscribe (http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/subscribe.asp?webtag=ml-mlb&msg=36743.1&ctx=0) From: tomohawkchop (http://www.forums.mlb.com/dir-app/bbcard/profile.asp?webtag=ml-mlb&uid=624171008) Aug-28 12:56 am To: ALL (1 of 31) 36743.1 (http://www.forums.mlb.com/ml-mlb/messages?msg=36743.1) tennessee. (AL east)
new orleans. (AL central)
portland. (AL west)
las vegas. (AL west)
washington senators. (NL east)
salt lake city. (NL west)

they should also move certain teams. the expos should move to norfolk/virginia beach. the blue jays should move to buffalo. the white sox should move to iowa. iowa deserves a team, right?? i think so.

new york yankees
boston red sox
baltimore orioles
tampa bay devil rays
buffalo blue jays...
tennessee

minnesota twins
kansas city royals
cleveland indians
iowa white sox...
detroit tigers
new orleans...

oakland athletics
texas rangers
seattle mariners
anaheim angels
porland beavers...
las vegas...
____________________________________
atlanta braves
florida marlins
philadelphia phillies
new york mets
washington senators...
norfolk/virginia beach expos

st. louis cardinals
cincinnati reds
houston astros
milwaukee brewers
pittsburgh pirates
chicago cubs

san diego padres
los angeles dodgers
san francisco giants
colorado rockies
arizona diamondbacks
salt lake city...
whatcha think??


:rolling:

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2004, 01:44 PM
Okay, George, tell us... What should baseball do to improve the playoffs?

If you say, "make the All-Star game decide who gets home field in the WS," I am going to be pretty damned disappointed though...:tool
"PHG and I are both in favor of replacing the World Series with a world champion all-star game. Hello... is this mike on?"
:smile:

The obvious solution for MLB is to leverage an attribute of baseball that no other sport can possibly duplicate: the fact baseball teams play another baseball game nearly every single day for almost 7 months straight.

The NBA and NHL would go broke if they did this, and the NFL would have players dropping dead after less than half a season. Only *baseball* can do this.

Marginally cutback the length of MLB's regular season. For example, the new season might be 154 games. That's still 9-times longer than the NFL's. Play a balanced schedule and let two league champions meet in a best-of-7 playoffs. Call it the "World Series" and crown the winner world champions. Simple, eh?

Now, what to do with all those other game dates not utilized deciding a world champion? Easy -- create a punchout tournament. I won't even go into the details because the details aren't important. What's important is that MLB will have more teams involved in more playoff games, generating more fan interest and more TV revenue and gate receipts than ever before. The tournament champion can also be the world champion, and that's what will separate the widely-recognized greatest champion teams from the also-ran champions <cough!> WILD CARD CHAMPION MARLINS!<cough!>.

Create whatever hair-brained idea you want for the tournament. It really makes no difference... round-robin... best-of-3... "Final Four" host city... etc. Baseball -- and ONLY baseball -- has the opportunity to play game after game after game for 7 months straight. USE THE ADVANTAGE!

Making more money is something the owners and players can *always* agree on.

:bandance:

Johnny Mostil
08-29-2004, 04:36 PM
Marginally cutback the length of MLB's regular season. For example, the new season might be 154 games. That's still 9-times longer than the NFL's. Play a balanced schedule and let two league champions meet in a best-of-7 playoffs. Call it the "World Series" and crown the winner world champions. Simple, eh?

Now, what to do with all those other game dates not utilized deciding a world champion? Easy -- create a punchout tournament. I won't even go into the details because the details aren't important. What's important is that MLB will have more teams involved in more playoff games, generating more fan interest and more TV revenue and gate receipts than ever before. The tournament champion can also be the world champion, and that's what will separate the widely-recognized greatest champion teams from the also-ran champions <cough!> WILD CARD CHAMPION MARLINS!<cough!>.

PHG, is what you're proposing similar to what happens in English football, with its (sometimes, but not always, different) champions for the Premier League and for the FA Cup?

I've started to wonder if what some major league teams need is the threat of relegation to the minors . . .

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2004, 04:50 PM
PHG, is what you're proposing similar to what happens in English football, with its (sometimes, but not always, different) champions for the Premier League and for the FA Cup?

I've started to wonder if what some major league teams need is the threat of relegation to the minors . . .
I don't like to compare what I'm proposing to English football because the details behind how they organize their league and tournament championships are based on European traditions and have no business in American baseball. For example, the "relegation" and "elevation" of teams wouldn't work in MLB because the minor league players and teams are already affiliated with the parent MLB clubs.

Everyone agrees more excitement (and more attendance and TV revenue) can be generated through more and better competition, both during the season and playoffs. I think having a world champion and a tournament champion (and for truly great champion teams, "double-champions") makes a lot of sense.

In fact, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than all these goofy plans for mimmicking the NFL. MLB has been doing this for the past 35 years and the gap between baseball's and football's popularity just keeps getting wider and wider. Time to take a new course of action.

Johnny Mostil
08-29-2004, 05:07 PM
For example, the "relegation" and "elevation" of teams wouldn't work in MLB because the minor league players and teams are already affiliated with the parent MLB clubs.Agreed, but was it always so? I've heard, but don't know, that minor league affiliations in the early 20th century were much looser than they are now.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2004, 05:32 PM
Agreed, but was it always so? I've heard, but don't know, that minor league affiliations in the early 20th century were much looser than they are now.Good question. I don't know the answer. Perhaps WSI's resident baseball historian TornLabrum could supply everyone the facts.
:cool:

I'm no fan of the current National Agreement that makes minor league teams subservient to the MLB parent clubs. However I'm certain a solution for increasing baseball's popularity (through better competition, both regular season and playoffs) can be achieved without changing the current affiliation between major league clubs and their minor league affiliates.

This is really an issue to be addressed separately from the one being discussed in the title of this thread.

Champs2004
08-29-2004, 07:24 PM
I have a new Playoff Format for baseball but in essence it would involve all 30 teams, however, of course it would be weighted and it would be similar to college basketball. The divisional rounds would be single elimination. For instance with the A.L. Central: KC would face the Indians and the Sox would play Detroit in single elimination. the winners of those 2 games would play each other, and then the winner of that game plays the Twins for the A.L. Central title. In the case of the N.L. Central and the A.L. West the top 2 teams will wait. regarding the teams who win the divisional tournaments, the team with the best record of the 3 survivors in each league will have a bye. If the Sox win the Central, the A's win the west and the yanks the east, the sox and a's would have a best of 5 series, and the winner of that will play NY. the sox/a's/ny winner would be al champion

dcb33
08-29-2004, 09:44 PM
I have a new Playoff Format for baseball but in essence it would involve all 30 teams, however, of course it would be weighted and it would be similar to college basketball. The divisional rounds would be single elimination. For instance with the A.L. Central: KC would face the Indians and the Sox would play Detroit in single elimination. the winners of those 2 games would play each other, and then the winner of that game plays the Twins for the A.L. Central title. In the case of the N.L. Central and the A.L. West the top 2 teams will wait. regarding the teams who win the divisional tournaments, the team with the best record of the 3 survivors in each league will have a bye. If the Sox win the Central, the A's win the west and the yanks the east, the sox and a's would have a best of 5 series, and the winner of that will play NY. the sox/a's/ny winner would be al champion
Are you stupid or just trying to get a rise out of people?

Brian26
08-29-2004, 10:11 PM
Are you stupid or just trying to get a rise out of people?
Thanks for asking that, because I'm scratching my head at this crazy idea. Single elimination? So a team with one good starting pitcher could eliminate a team, conceivably, with 5 good starting pitchers in their rotation? Totally unfair.

Brian26
08-29-2004, 10:14 PM
Now, what to do with all those other game dates not utilized deciding a world champion? Easy -- create a punchout tournament.
This is actually a cool idea. I knew a guy in college who was a big Pursue the Pennant fan (I always favored strat-o-matic). He'd play a tournament at the beginning of the season when he got his new cards in, and then he'd play the regular season for his favorite team - the Blue Jays. I don't remember all the details, but the point is he crowned a tournament champion at the beginning of the season and a world series champion at the end of the seaon...and I guess the really great teams would be the ones who somehow won both titles.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-30-2004, 12:29 PM
This is actually a cool idea. I knew a guy in college who was a big Pursue the Pennant fan (I always favored strat-o-matic). He'd play a tournament at the beginning of the season when he got his new cards in, and then he'd play the regular season for his favorite team - the Blue Jays. I don't remember all the details, but the point is he crowned a tournament champion at the beginning of the season and a world series champion at the end of the seaon...and I guess the really great teams would be the ones who somehow won both titles.Like I said before, you can create whatever hair-brained idea you want for a tournament. The details aren't important and I'm sure all of us have good ideas worthy of consideration. What's important is to generate more excitement for both regular season games and more playoff games. 35 years of mimmicking the NFL only proves doing more mimicry won't work. From near-equality back in the 60's, MLB's popularity has fallen light-years behind today's NFL. Time for a change.

Personally, I would recommend holding the first round of the tournament during the middle of the summer, probably before and after the All-Star game, in lieu of the current inter-league games. The next round (including eliminations) would take place in late-September and early-October. That way *every* team in MLB still has something to play for right till the end of the year.

The World Series would be held in mid-October and final rounds of the tournament would follow in late-October, perhaps in a "Final Four" host city, ala the NCAA mens' basketball tournament.

Lots and lots of excitement generated by lots and lots of meaningful games, both during the season and the playoffs. Only baseball can do this. So why don't they?

:tool
"Why don't we? Umm.... because we're idiots?"

Brian26
08-30-2004, 07:03 PM
The World Series would be held in mid-October and final rounds of the tournament would follow in late-October, perhaps in a "Final Four" host city, ala the NCAA mens' basketball tournament.
Not sure if I would compromise the World Series finale coming before this new tournament final. Part of the romance of the World Series is that it's 100 years old and has always been the crowning achievement of the season (except for 1994). The World Series champion in the last team standing. No other games should be played after the World Series in a particular year. Just my two cents. The ideas are fun to fiddle with though.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-30-2004, 07:35 PM
Not sure if I would compromise the World Series finale coming before this new tournament final. Part of the romance of the World Series is that it's 100 years old and has always been the crowning achievement of the season (except for 1994). The World Series champion in the last team standing. No other games should be played after the World Series in a particular year. Just my two cents. The ideas are fun to fiddle with though.It's a practical consideration. You wouldn't want either league champion waiting around for more than a week to start the World Series if they were eliminated from the punchout tournament in an early round. Putting the WS in the middle of October ensures both teams are still playing games and in their "groove" before the world championship is decided.

:smokin:

:tool
"I love this idea... but how can you ensure me the Brewers make it to the Final Four every year?