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View Full Version : Try Carlos Lee at First Base


DickAllen72
08-28-2004, 01:28 AM
Ozzie should play Carlos Lee at first base some for the remainder of the season to see how well he does there.

I've read before that some in the Sox organization think he could make a good defensive first baseman. We should play him there now to see if we can afford to trade Paulie next year.

We probably can't afford to keep both Konerko and Lee and still improve by signing FA pitchers, a RF and a SS next year. If Carlos can play a good 1B, we can get someone pretty valuable for Konerko and this opens up LF to Carl Everett with Frank coming back as the DH.

nodiggity59
08-28-2004, 01:34 AM
I've always liked that idea. The only problem I see is visions of Biggio and his horrible play in CF...never know what you're gonna get when you switch guys around.However, all our good, young position players are in the OF so either CLee's gotta go or move to 1st.

Nellie_Fox
08-28-2004, 01:35 AM
He's finally learned to play LF well enough that I don't hyperventilate every time a fly ball is hit his way, and you want to move him to an unfamiliar position and start it all over again?

JB98
08-28-2004, 02:01 AM
He's finally learned to play LF well enough that I don't hyperventilate every time a fly ball is hit his way, and you want to move him to an unfamiliar position and start it all over again?
I agree. We're a bad enough defensive team as it is. Lee has actually become adequate in LF. Why start tinkering around?

indysoxfan
08-28-2004, 02:02 AM
hell.... i am willing to try anything at this point...:(:

owensmouth
08-28-2004, 02:04 AM
So put him back at third and get rid of Crede

Mohoney
08-28-2004, 02:46 AM
Why does everybody want to trade Konerko? Who do you want to get for him?

I just don't get it. Hasn't his performance this year more than made amends for last year? He's not striking out at the rate of a Valentin or a Borchard, and he just might finish the season with 40+ HR and 115+ RBI.

Frank, Carlos Lee, and Paulie all need to stay if we're going to entertain any thoughts of being competitive next year. Even if we go "small ball" next year, we're still going to need some thunder in our lineup. It's what is called for in today's game, especially when we give up so many home runs as a pitching staff.

If you want some small ball injected into this lineup, find a cheaper replacement for Valentin's 115 Ks and .290 OBP. I could even live with giving Valdez a shot at the job, with Uribe as a fallback if he can't do it. Find a 3B that can produce more than the .227 AVG and .290 OBP that we are currently getting from Joe Crede if he doesn't show me any signs of life at the plate in September. I'm sure that there's going to be one around somewhere. Plus, PLEASE teach Willie Harris how to steal a base. The guy's learned how to draw walks and foul off pitches, and he's getting on base at a .354 clip. I think, with time, this guy actually can pan out and be a good #9 hitter. Of course, this remains to be seen, but I'm willing to give him the rest of this year to show me what he can do when he gets consistent ABs. If he absolutely tanks in September, then we need to go another direction.

As for RF, your guess is as good as mine.

The Wimperoo
08-28-2004, 07:12 AM
Why does everybody want to trade Konerko? Who do you want to get for him?

I just don't get it. Hasn't his performance this year more than made amends for last year? He's not striking out at the rate of a Valentin or a Borchard, and he just might finish the season with 40+ HR and 115+ RBI.

Frank, Carlos Lee, and Paulie all need to stay if we're going to entertain any thoughts of being competitive next year. Even if we go "small ball" next year, we're still going to need some thunder in our lineup. It's what is called for in today's game, especially when we give up so many home runs as a pitching staff.

If you want some small ball injected into this lineup, find a cheaper replacement for Valentin's 115 Ks and .290 OBP. I could even live with giving Valdez a shot at the job, with Uribe as a fallback if he can't do it. Find a 3B that can produce more than the .227 AVG and .290 OBP that we are currently getting from Joe Crede if he doesn't show me any signs of life at the plate in September. I'm sure that there's going to be one around somewhere. Plus, PLEASE teach Willie Harris how to steal a base. The guy's learned how to draw walks and foul off pitches, and he's getting on base at a .354 clip. I think, with time, this guy actually can pan out and be a good #9 hitter. Of course, this remains to be seen, but I'm willing to give him the rest of this year to show me what he can do when he gets consistent ABs. If he absolutely tanks in September, then we need to go another direction.

As for RF, your guess is as good as mine.
:gulp:

gosox41
08-28-2004, 09:15 AM
Ozzie should play Carlos Lee at first base some for the remainder of the season to see how well he does there.

I've read before that some in the Sox organization think he could make a good defensive first baseman. We should play him there now to see if we can afford to trade Paulie next year.

We probably can't afford to keep both Konerko and Lee and still improve by signing FA pitchers, a RF and a SS next year. If Carlos can play a good 1B, we can get someone pretty valuable for Konerko and this opens up LF to Carl Everett with Frank coming back as the DH.
And who plays RF?

LFers and first baseman are a dime a dozen in terms of finding a decent hitter. I'm all for trading PK and/or Lee. But moving Lee to 1B doesn't accomplish all that much.


Bob

misty60481
08-28-2004, 09:38 AM
I agree with Mahoney why get rid of your best offense how are we going to replace his numbers?? We are taking a chance that Maggs either wont be here or will be not the same old Maggs-- Big Frank is a gamble because of his age and injury record.

ma-gaga
08-28-2004, 10:07 AM
Frank, Carlos Lee, and Paulie all need to stay if we're going to entertain any thoughts of being competitive next year.
I agree. But I'm curious what the salaries of those 3 will tally next year? $20MM? $25MM? I don't know. The goofy salary scale has been depressed, but I think C.Lee is young enough and good enough to get a good offer. Paulie is making $8MM this year, they USUALLY offer raises after good years. And Hurt is Hurt. Maybe he only makes $6MM next year. Maybe.

Anyone with good math skills and a grasp of the CBA have an idea of how much these guys will make next year?

JB98
08-28-2004, 12:53 PM
I agree. But I'm curious what the salaries of those 3 will tally next year? $20MM? $25MM? I don't know. The goofy salary scale has been depressed, but I think C.Lee is young enough and good enough to get a good offer. Paulie is making $8MM this year, they USUALLY offer raises after good years. And Hurt is Hurt. Maybe he only makes $6MM next year. Maybe.

Anyone with good math skills and a grasp of the CBA have an idea of how much these guys will make next year?
CLee and PK are under contract for next year, and Frank is in an option year. There aren't any dramatic raises coming. The total of the three salaries would be roughly $25 million. That's no big deal. It isn't going to throw the salary structure out of whack. We need to sign a leadoff hitter, some middle relievers and a front-line starter. The only one of those things that is expensive is a front-line starter. The money we save on Maggs' contract coming off the books can go toward that.

RKMeibalane
08-28-2004, 12:58 PM
If the Sox decide to move Konerko, then they're better off putting Frank back at first base. Carlos has worked hard to become a solid left fielder. There's no sense in having him learn another position at this point.

As far as trading Konerko is concerned, it makes perfect sense. The Sox have several holes they still need to fill (second base, starting pitching, etc.). Konerko is having his best season, and will attract the interest of several teams during the off-season. It makes sense for KW to listen to any offers other teams make.

nodiggity59
08-28-2004, 01:22 PM
After all, Konerko IS a FA after next year so who knows what he'll command

JRIG
08-28-2004, 01:26 PM
After all, Konerko IS a FA after next year so who knows what he'll commandWell, using KW's logic with Keith Foulke, since Konerko is a FA after this next year and will be commanding big money, and we don't know if we'll keep him, he will be traded this offseason for a first baseman having a career year -- Ken Harvey, maybe?

nodiggity59
08-28-2004, 01:31 PM
Well, using KW's logic with Keith Foulke, since Konerko is a FA after this year and will be commanding big money, and we don't know if we'll keep him, he will be traded this offseason for a first baseman having a career year -- Ken Harvey, maybe?
Ha! That was great! Very clever....and yet very depressing:(:

SEALgep
08-28-2004, 02:30 PM
I've always liked that idea. The only problem I see is visions of Biggio and his horrible play in CF...never know what you're gonna get when you switch guys around.However, all our good, young position players are in the OF so either CLee's gotta go or move to 1st.He was an original third baseman though, and he has had a pretty solid transformation to left. I think move to first would prove to have similar or even better results. A move IMO would even help his offensive production.

he_gone_89
08-28-2004, 04:13 PM
So put him back at third and get rid of Crede
speaking of third base,why doesn't valentin play 3rd instead of uribe
uribe is faster and has a better glove

MisterB
08-28-2004, 07:52 PM
CLee and PK are under contract for next year, and Frank is in an option year. There aren't any dramatic raises coming. The total of the three salaries would be roughly $25 million. That's no big deal. It isn't going to throw the salary structure out of whack. We need to sign a leadoff hitter, some middle relievers and a front-line starter. The only one of those things that is expensive is a front-line starter. The money we save on Maggs' contract coming off the books can go toward that.Frank, Carlos, Paulie = $24.75M
Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras = $19.75M
Marte, Takatsu = $2.75M
Garland's arbitration, Everett's player option = $7M+

That's $54.25M and you still need to pay another starter, 4 relievers, a secondbaseman, a shortstop, a thirdbaseman, a catcher, a CF, and a complete bench (15 players who all need to be better than what we currently have) for $10M + any payroll increase over this year (if there is one).

Frankly they're not 'saving' money on letting Ordonez and Valentin walk any more than they 'saved' money by letting Colon walk last year.

ma-gaga
08-29-2004, 12:16 AM
Frank, Carlos, Paulie = $24.75M

ok. I thought PK's contract ended this year. I thought Thomas's contract ended after this year. And I thought C.Lee was arb eligible after this year. I guess I vaguely remember him signing a multi year deal now...

never mind, carry on.

Whitesox029
08-29-2004, 12:42 AM
Ozzie should play Carlos Lee at first base some for the remainder of the season to see how well he does there.

I've read before that some in the Sox organization think he could make a good defensive first baseman. We should play him there now to see if we can afford to trade Paulie next year.

We probably can't afford to keep both Konerko and Lee and still improve by signing FA pitchers, a RF and a SS next year. If Carlos can play a good 1B, we can get someone pretty valuable for Konerko and this opens up LF to Carl Everett with Frank coming back as the DH.This sorta doesn't work.
1, you're getting rid of a man finally being recognized as one of the top 1B in the league to be replaced by a man who has never regularly, possibly never even once, played the position in pro ball.
2, your team struggles greatly getting men in with clutch hits,
and you're trading a man who's currently hitting at least .314 with RISP (it was .313 before his 3-run HR today). No matter how much pitching you get, you cannot protect a lead if you don't get one first.
3, you're trading Paul Konerko, a team player and key clubhouse leader, very likely to a team with which he can come back and haunt us, as all stupid trades and even some good trades inevitably do.

What I think of this idea, put simply:
:rolling:

Whitesox029
08-29-2004, 12:47 AM
oh yeah, and this too:
:threadblows:

DickAllen72
08-29-2004, 01:34 AM
This sorta doesn't work.
1, you're getting rid of a man finally being recognized as one of the top 1B in the league to be replaced by a man who has never regularly, possibly never even once, played the position in pro ball.
2, your team struggles greatly getting men in with clutch hits,
and you're trading a man who's currently hitting at least .314 with RISP (it was .313 before his 3-run HR today). No matter how much pitching you get, you cannot protect a lead if you don't get one first.
3, you're trading Paul Konerko, a team player and key clubhouse leader, very likely to a team with which he can come back and haunt us, as all stupid trades and even some good trades inevitably do.

What I think of this idea, put simply:
:rolling:

I didn't just pull this idea out of my ass. I remember reading a couple of times last off-season that people in the Sox organization think Carlos Lee would make a good defensive first baseman. If that's what they think, now would be a good time to try it.

A lot of people think the Sox have too much money tied up in Carlos and Paulie and that at least one of them will have to go in order to improve in other areas. Besides the fact that the Sox would like to save on on their salary, both of them are probably our most attractive trade bait.

There's no harm in playing Lee at first for a few games just to see how he would do. If he looks good there and theSox do trade Konerko, they'll know they already have a good replacement at 1B without having to wait through spring training to make sure. Or, if they want to keep Konerko and trade Lee, now they can market him both as a LF and a 1B. There may be a team that wants his bat but is set in the OF. It makes Lee more versatile, therefore more marketable.

Also, if the Sox decide they want to keep both Carlos and Paulie, they'll know if Carlos can be a back-up first baseman, thus perhaps saving a roster spot or just buying peace of mind in case Konerko gets injured.

This is a reasonable idea, especially if the Sox continue to fall out of contention. The idea makes sense, and if the thread does blow, it's because of posts like yours, not the original post nor the sensible responses from others.

jeremyb1
08-29-2004, 01:57 AM
In my opinion, the problem is that IIRC Carlos only makes slightly less money than Paully next season (something like 6.5 vs. 8) and Paully has been the far better hitter this season. I fail to see what we'd gain.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2004, 02:08 AM
In my opinion, the problem is that IIRC Carlos only makes slightly less money than Paully next season (something like 6.5 vs. 8) and Paully has been the far better hitter this season. I fail to see what we'd gain.Not to argue with the point being made, just expressing astonishment at where we've gone. 1.5 million dollars is now considered "slightly less" money. Wow.

DickAllen72
08-29-2004, 02:10 AM
In my opinion, the problem is that IIRC Carlos only makes slightly less money than Paully next season (something like 6.5 vs. 8) and Paully has been the far better hitter this season. I fail to see what we'd gain.

Again, if Carlos plays some first base, and they decide they want to keep Konerko and trade Lee, they'll be able to market Lee both as a LF and a 1B. It makes Lee more versatile, therefore more marketable.

Also, if the Sox decide they want to keep both Carlos and Paulie, they'll know if Carlos can be a back-up first baseman, thus perhaps saving a roster spot or just buying peace of mind in case Konerko gets injured.

Or they may decide that since Carlos is much faster and a better baserunner and can play more than one position, they'll keep him and trade Konerko.

Or...he may turn out to be a butcher at first base, so you just move him back to LF or trade him. No harm in trying it out.

Man Soo Lee
08-29-2004, 02:53 AM
In my opinion, the problem is that IIRC Carlos only makes slightly less money than Paully next season (something like 6.5 vs. 8) and Paully has been the far better hitter this season. I fail to see what we'd gain.
Konerko makes $8.75 million next year and Carlos makes $8 million.

How do you figure .278/.363/.538 is far better than .303/.363/.525?

Flight #24
08-29-2004, 06:29 AM
If the Sox decide to move Konerko, then they're better off putting Frank back at first base.

That'll work great for about 6 weeks, then you get Gload or whoever when our 280+lb HOFer with recurring ankle problems "surprisingly" goes on the DL

jeremyb1
08-29-2004, 11:41 AM
Konerko makes $8.75 million next year and Carlos makes $8 million.

How do you figure .278/.363/.538 is far better than .303/.363/.525?

Wow. I stand corrected. I guess I underestimated Carlos' recent power streak. I'd still probably rather have Paully though since I generally prefer the player with the least amount of value concentrated in batting average. It's not a gimme either way though. I'd probably deal whichever player I receive better offers for.