PDA

View Full Version : The Frank Thomas Story


SoxFan76
08-27-2004, 12:33 PM
Reading some threads talking about Frank made this thought pop into my mind.

Remember the good ol days. 2-2, 2 doubles 3 RBI 2 walks 4 runs scored. Frank is MVP, everybody is talking about the Big Hurt. .340 averages, 40 home runs, over 100 RBIs.

Now all we have is this crappy Frank Thomas. I mean in a full year, the bear minimum this schmuck gives you is 40 homers, 100 runs scored, and 100 RBIs. What a loser. He's such a clubhouse cancer, in fact I blame all the Sox failures on Frank. He deserves to be hated by the media.

Ahem, excuse me. So my point is, what will it take for people to realize that the old Frank is still here, just in a different form? He is still one of the top offensive players in the game when healthy. It's a damn shame how he is spit on day in and day out. Why is Chicago hailing guys like Prior and Moises Alou? They haven't done half the things Frank has done for Chicago. Worst part of him being injured this year, aside from the fact that it probably cost the Sox the division, is people are going to be saying how injury prone Frank is, when we know that is not the case. Just another handicap for Frank in the respect category. Atleast he has the respect of Sox fans, and maybe that's all that matters.

Wanne
08-27-2004, 12:38 PM
While I somewhat agree with you...I think the biggest wrap on Frank was his "Me First" attitude and his focus on his own statistics in previous years. While I think Frank is a fanstastic hitter and has done alot for this franchise...there were a few things that always bothered my about Frank.

I think it started about 5 years ago when the Sox were in the heat of a pennant race with Cleveland. In a pivitol series against the Tribe, in a close game...Frank was rounding 3rd on his way home and the throw beat him...Frank could've put the catcher 3 rows into the bleachers...but he just pulled up...DIDN'T EVEN SLIDE! I remember rocketing out of my chair...and the only thought I had was...WHAT A PUSS YOU ARE FRANK!!! I think that impression has ALWAYS stuck in my head after that play.

JB98
08-27-2004, 12:41 PM
Reading some threads talking about Frank made this thought pop into my mind.

Remember the good ol days. 2-2, 2 doubles 3 RBI 2 walks 4 runs scored. Frank is MVP, everybody is talking about the Big Hurt. .340 averages, 40 home runs, over 100 RBIs.

Now all we have is this crappy Frank Thomas.I mean in a full year, the bear minimum this schmuck gives you is 40 homers, 100 runs scored, and 100 RBIs. What a loser. He's such a clubhouse cancer, in fact I blame all the Sox failures on Frank. He deserves to be hated by the media.

Ahem, excuse me. So my point is, what will it take for people to realize that the old Frank is still here, just in a different form? He is still one of the top offensive players in the game when healthy. It's a damn shame how he is spit on day in and day out. Why is Chicago hailing guys like Prior and Moises Alou? They haven't done half the things Frank has done for Chicago. Worst part of him being injured this year, aside from the fact that it probably cost the Sox the division, is people are going to be saying how injury prone Frank is, when we know that is not the case. Just another handicap for Frank in the respect category. Atleast he has the respect of Sox fans, and maybe that's all that matters.
Amen. I couldn't agree more.

Just remember though, there are many in the Chicago media and even some fans who think athletes should kiss ass all the time, like Jordan and Sosa did. Frank has never done that, and that's why he will never be loved. Personally, I don't need Frank to kiss any ass. I just want him to produce, and he's done it his entire career on the South Side.

WinTwins
08-27-2004, 01:11 PM
Frank could've put the catcher 3 rows into the bleachers...but he just pulled up...DIDN'T EVEN SLIDE! I remember rocketing out of my chair...and the only thought I had was...WHAT A PUSS YOU ARE FRANK!!! I think that impression has ALWAYS stuck in my head after that play.
You must be an admirer of Torii Hunter.

PatK
08-27-2004, 01:43 PM
I agree. I think he may not be a bad guy, or the cancer in the clubhouse the media has made him. I think it's more that he always seems to say the wrong things at the wrong time, and doesn't like to talk to the media in general.

It's funny, you see Sammy cranking his samba music, pissing off everyone on the team, refusing to bat down in the order, and whining until they found out a way to allow his lackey to be part of the team. But he's a great guy.

thepaulbowski
08-27-2004, 01:52 PM
While I somewhat agree with you...I think the biggest wrap on Frank was his "Me First" attitude and his focus on his own statistics in previous years. While I think Frank is a fanstastic hitter and has done alot for this franchise...there were a few things that always bothered my about Frank.

I think it started about 5 years ago when the Sox were in the heat of a pennant race with Cleveland. In a pivitol series against the Tribe, in a close game...Frank was rounding 3rd on his way home and the throw beat him...Frank could've put the catcher 3 rows into the bleachers...but he just pulled up...DIDN'T EVEN SLIDE! I remember rocketing out of my chair...and the only thought I had was...WHAT A PUSS YOU ARE FRANK!!! I think that impression has ALWAYS stuck in my head after that play.
I don't know that I would want my franchise player going in a doing that. He does it and separates a shoulder, tears up his knee, etc then everybody will be talking about what a dumb move it was.

Wanne
08-27-2004, 02:01 PM
I don't know that I would want my franchise player going in a doing that. He does it and separates a shoulder, tears up his knee, etc then everybody will be talking about what a dumb move it was.

I guess it's how you look at it. I looked at it as pretty chicken-sh#t! So you just pull up...don't even slide...NOTHING...just take a tag. I'm not saying you go in like a friggin' linebacker, shoulder first...but the man did NOTHING! You call it like you see it...but all I'm saying is...that's not how I play the game. It was a very critical game at the time.

Dadawg_77
08-27-2004, 02:05 PM
I think it started about 5 years ago when the Sox were in the heat of a pennant race with Cleveland. In a pivitol series against the Tribe, in a close game...Frank was rounding 3rd on his way home and the throw beat him...Frank could've put the catcher 3 rows into the bleachers...but he just pulled up...DIDN'T EVEN SLIDE! I remember rocketing out of my chair...and the only thought I had was...WHAT A PUSS YOU ARE FRANK!!! I think that impression has ALWAYS stuck in my head after that play.
I recall this play too, what you don't see is the reaction of the on deck hitter. In baseball it is the on deck hitter job to get to the first base side of the plate or somewhere were they can be seen and let the guy coming home if the play is going to be close or if the ball was cut off. Now, the Sox on deck hitter did nothing, so Frank seeing this could have thought there was going to be no play at the plate.

Wanne
08-27-2004, 02:12 PM
I recall this play too, what you don't see is the reaction of the on deck hitter. In baseball it is the on deck hitter job to get to the first base side of the plate or somewhere were they can be seen and let the guy coming home if the play is going to be close or if the ball was cut off. Now, the Sox on deck hitter did nothing, so Frank seeing this could have thought there was going to be no play at the plate.

Good point. To tell ya the truth I didn't even notice that (whether he was there or not). So maybe I'm bein' a little hard on the beaver?!? Still pissed me off though.

alohafri
08-27-2004, 02:17 PM
I agree. I think he may not be a bad guy, or the cancer in the clubhouse the media has made him. I think it's more that he always seems to say the wrong things at the wrong time, and doesn't like to talk to the media in general.

It's funny, you see Sammy cranking his samba music, pissing off everyone on the team, refusing to bat down in the order, and whining until they found out a way to allow his lackey to be part of the team. But he's a great guy.
That is it in a nutshell, PatK. Frank says something and the media (who Hanger18 can't say enough about) twists it into some kind of "me first" statement. While Scammin' SamMe $oso gets a pass because he has hit 500 home runs and plays for the knuckleheads up north.

cornball
08-27-2004, 02:27 PM
That is it in a nutshell, PatK. Frank says something and the media (who Hanger18 can't say enough about) twists it into some kind of "me first" statement. While Scammin' SamMe $oso gets a pass because he has hit 500 home runs and plays for the knuckleheads up north.
That is true.

Understand there is a double standard on the way the media covers the two teams. It has been well documented.

Also Frank has brought alot of it on himself. One bad example: The players are on strike and were asking all the trades and union workers to support their cause, while at the same time had all kinds of non-union workers doing construction at his home.

Flight #24
08-27-2004, 02:54 PM
Also Frank has brought alot of it on himself. One bad example: The players are on strike and were asking all the trades and union workers to support their cause, while at the same time had all kinds of non-union workers doing construction at his home.
I'm sorry, but that's a load of tripe. Most likely Frank had a management company or general contractor running the work. Could he have insisted on union labor - sure. But in a lot of cases, you're a lot more worried about the quality of the work, the cost, etc in your interviews and it can easily get lost. But the media made it out to be like he went out and requested non-union guys or something.

SOXSINCE'70
08-27-2004, 03:07 PM
While I somewhat agree with you...I think the biggest wrap on Frank was his "Me First" attitude and his focus on his own statistics in previous years. While I think Frank is a fanstastic hitter and has done alot for this franchise...there were a few things that always bothered my about Frank.

I think it started about 5 years ago when the Sox were in the heat of a pennant race with Cleveland. In a pivitol series against the Tribe, in a close game...Frank was rounding 3rd on his way home and the throw beat him...Frank could've put the catcher 3 rows into the bleachers...but he just pulled up...DIDN'T EVEN SLIDE! I remember rocketing out of my chair...and the only thought I had was...WHAT A PUSS YOU ARE FRANK!!! I think that impression has ALWAYS stuck in my head after that play.
I thought that was more like 1994.The Sox were horrible in '99.They didn't even have a winning record.Thomas missed the last several weeks of the season with a foot injury.'99 was the year he refused to pinch hit in Texas.:(: :(:

SOXSINCE'70
08-27-2004, 03:11 PM
That is true.

Understand there is a double standard on the way the media covers the two teams. It has been well documented.

Also Frank has brought alot of it on himself. One bad example: The players are on strike and were asking all the trades and union workers to support their cause, while at the same time had all kinds of non-union workers doing construction at his home.Remember in'97,the 50th anniversary of Jackie Robinson breaking into the minors ?? Remember Frank's whole attitude of how Jackie wasn't that important to him??

He might want to rethink that statement.Where was Sox PR doofus Rob Dumbass (Gallas) while this went down??

Jamieboy
08-27-2004, 04:07 PM
Frank does generally get a bad rap. He says something, and it gets taken out of context, gets a little twisted, and he's made into the bad guy. Imagine if Frank had Sosa's dumebers this season, was making roughly 17 million, refused to move down in the order, has his own personal guy with him in the dugout, my god, he would be getting killed by the media. While with Sosa its kinda glossed over a little. The manager doesn't want to hurt the feelings of his "Gladiator". Bull. Frank has played through plenty of pain in career. His refusal to pinch hit in Texas in 99, I remember that, Manuel didn't know that Frank had a bone spur in his ankle the size of a damn golf ball which he played on all season long, thats why he had so little HR production, he couldn't drive the ball at all that year. Frank just gets dogged. Remember how Ozzie called out Frank in his first press conference. Come on, I dont' care how hard Ozzie played during his career, to call out Frank and act like Frank doesn't play hard or care about the team or care about winning is wrong. Frank Thomas is the WhiteSox, period. Ozzie couldn't hold Frank's jock.

steff
08-27-2004, 04:49 PM
The players are on strike and were asking all the trades and union workers to support their cause, while at the same time had all kinds of non-union workers doing construction at his home.

Oh good grief... Frank hired a builder to build his house. It's not Frank's responsibility to make sure the builder used union guys..

DumpJerry
08-27-2004, 05:48 PM
Excuse me, but this is Frank Thomas we're talking about, right? The same guy who we call "The Big Hurt," "Big Frank," and "Hurtus Maximus?" Did Frank get these nicknames for being a pansy? Heck no!!!! He is called these names because he is big and, most importantly, HE DELIVERS! Frank refuses to talk with the media. Big f'in deal. Talking to the media does not score runs or get hits. Because Frank does not talk to the media, he is not on the news after games with thoughtful quotes about how it felt to go deep in the 8th with the winning run aboard, etc. Since the media can't get any juicy bits out of him to fill in for the fact they cannot themselves come up with something creative to say, they wage war on the poor guy. GIVE HIM A BREAK. He is the franchise player for us. If Buerhle, Contreras and Garcia all win 20+ games next year, Frank is still the franchise player. He makes it happen.

Now, let's look at a contrast or two: Sammy and Michael Jordan. Sammy whose ego is larger than Yankee Stadium always has something to say. Why? He loves the sound of his voice. Given that, the media loves him and will say nice things about him so he will continue to give them good sound bites. Sammy is all about the show, not the substance. Whether it's running out to RF to the cheers or bunny-hopping after a homer or using a corked bat to make his BP homer look real dramatic, his concern is not helping the team, but helping Sammy (look good).

Michael J. He is part Frank and part Sammy. He is Frank because without him, even when the Bulls had a ton of extremely great talent, the team would not win the NBA title. He produced the victories. Made them happen. He is also part Sammy because he controlled the media's access to the Bulls and provided the media with the Bulls' message at all times. Frank could care less (from what I can see) about how the Sox' message is given to the media. Sammy cares that a) he is the message and b) it is positive for him.

Thems my thoughts.

:corker

DumpJerry
08-30-2004, 12:33 AM
I have a great gut feeling about Big Frank's season next year....he is getting hungry.............................

soxfanreggie
08-30-2004, 01:55 AM
I have always been a huge Frank Thomas fan. He has played through so many health problems. At least he doesn't sneeze himself onto the disabled list...he has played with many serious injuries. If he would've taken 'roids like some ballplayers, he would be the biggest guy in the history of the game. But, he didn't because he didn't need to. Frank has consistantly produced and doesn't strike out 150 times a season like $ammy $trike-out. If any cubs fan thinks he is worth 18 mil now, they are dumb.

starboy0
08-30-2004, 06:53 AM
Remember how Ozzie called out Frank in his first press conference. Come on, I dont' care how hard Ozzie played during his career, to call out Frank and act like Frank doesn't play hard or care about the team or care about winning is wrong. Frank Thomas is the WhiteSox, period. Ozzie couldn't hold Frank's jock.

It was actually the media dogging Ozzie with "the Frank question." They were purposely trying to create a story and baiting Ozzie which forced the response. Both Frank and Ozzie are Whitesox through and through.

DumpJerry
08-30-2004, 08:29 AM
I have always been a huge Frank Thomas fan. He has played through so many health problems. At least he doesn't sneeze himself onto the disabled list...he has played with many serious injuries. If he would've taken 'roids like some ballplayers, he would be the biggest guy in the history of the game. But, he didn't because he didn't need to. Frank has consistantly produced and doesn't strike out 150 times a season like $ammy $trike-out. If any cubs fan thinks he is worth 18 mil now, they are dumb.Want proof that Frank does not use 'roids? No ligament injuries. When you use 'roids, your muscles build up rapidly, but your ligaments do not keep pace. This makes your ligaments extremely vulnerable to injury because they are not strong enough to support he new, larger, muscles around them. Hence, when Frank sneezes, he reaches for a tissue, when $lammy sneezes, he throws out his ligaments.........................

Only losers use 'roids.

SoxFan76
08-30-2004, 11:58 AM
I have a great gut feeling about Big Frank's season next year....he is getting hungry.............................
I could say "Yeah, we've been saying that since 2002." BUT, you are right. Look at Frank's numbers this season before he got injured. His average was around .270 I think, and he was slumping. He had some good power numbers going, and his OBP was well over .400. I really thought Frank would be back to hitting .300. Even if he didn't, .280-.290 wouldn't break my heart by any means. I complain about Frank not getting the attention he deserves, but then again Frank is one of the best kept secrets in baseball over the last few years. Abreu would be another one in my book. And maybe that is a good thing.

TornLabrum
08-30-2004, 03:48 PM
I could say "Yeah, we've been saying that since 2002." BUT, you are right. Look at Frank's numbers this season before he got injured. His average was around .270 I think, and he was slumping. He had some good power numbers going, and his OBP was well over .400. I really thought Frank would be back to hitting .300. Even if he didn't, .280-.290 wouldn't break my heart by any means. I complain about Frank not getting the attention he deserves, but then again Frank is one of the best kept secrets in baseball over the last few years. Abreu would be another one in my book. And maybe that is a good thing.Let's not forget that perhaps he was slumping because he played the last couple of weeks with that stress fracture before he went down .

fusillirob1983
08-30-2004, 04:41 PM
I think he was hitting around .295 before he started playing while injured.

SouthSideIrish
08-30-2004, 04:42 PM
It's nice to see it in writing, that Frank is basically one of the 2 best first basemen of his generation (with McGuire being there also - anybody else remember McGuire not playing the last game of his rookie season when he was stuck on 49 HR's, back when no one had hit 50 in decades, back when it meant something?). I took out the 2nd half when he goes over Biggio.

At first, the question surprised me.
Are Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio Hall of Famers?
Of course they are (I thought).
But then I stopped myself. For one thing, I hadn't actually gone through the statistical gymnastics to make sure. And for another, there was a time when that's exactly what people said -- "Of course they are." -- about Ryne Sandberg and Dale Murphy (among others). So rather than just say of course, it's worth taking a few moments and figuring it out.What's a Hall of Famer? Well, a Hall of Famer is a Hall of Famer. I know, that's circular "logic," but in a sense it's true. Hall of Fame voters know what they're looking for, and essentially they're looking for players with numbers (and reputations) like the players for whom they've voted already.
That means the voters don't care about old-timers like Dan Brouthers and Roger Connor, and neither should we. Instead, when looking at Jeff Bagwell's Hall of Fame chances we should consider only first basemen who played after World War II, and seven post-war first basemen have been elected to the Hall of Fame. Chronologically, they are: Hank Greenberg, Johnny Mize, Harmon Killebrew, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Tony Perez, and Eddie Murray.
Of course, Bagwell isn't competing with just the first basemen who are in the Hall of Fame, but also with some of those who are not. He's also competing with Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Frank Thomas, Fred McGriff, Jim Thome, and Will Clark (who aren't eligible yet), and guys like Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, and Dick Allen (who are).
This gives us a group of 17 first basemen: seven Hall of Famers, one future lock (McGwire), and eight guys with pretty good (or better) arguments. How does Bagwell stack up?
First let's look at career Win Shares, Bill James' catch-all category that incorporates hitting, fielding, and baserunning.
>
Career Win Shares
1. Eddie Murray 437
2. W. McCovey 408
3. R. Palmeiro 381
4. Jeff Bagwell 375
5. H. Killebrew 371
6. Frank Thomas 358
7. Tony Perez 349

Bagwell's signed through 2006, and if he's reasonably healthy over the next two seasons he'll probably pass Palmeiro and possibly McCovey. Eddie Murray had few great seasons, but so many good ones that he's probably going to be No. 1 on this list for quite some time (among all first basemen, only Lou Gehrig's ahead of Murray). Frank Thomas will catch Killebrew next season and pass Palmeiro in 2006, but I suspect he'll finish his career in the No. 3 slot, just a shade behind Bagwell.
All that's sheer speculation, of course. Right now, Bagwell is No. 4 among post-war first basemen, smack dab in the middle of six Hall of Famers and future Hall of Famers. Now let's shift our focus to the rate at which Bagwell's earned his Win Shares. There are a couple of obvious reasons to look at the rate. For one thing, the schedule is eight games longer today than it was prior to the early 1960s, which gives modern players a slight advantage in all the "counting stats." And for another, one can reasonably argue that a player who's great for 12 seasons is more valuable than a player who's good for 20 seasons. So below are the top first basemen in the group, according to Win Shares per 600 plate appearances.
WS/600
1. Dick Allen 28.3
2. Johnny Mize 27.6
3. Mark McGwire 27.1
4. H. Greenberg 26.4
5. Frank Thomas 25.7
6. W. McCovey 25.5
7. Jeff Bagwell 25.0
Bagwell's probably going to drop a notch or two on this list as his skills diminish. Believe it or not, the eighth slot is held by Will Clark, at 24.3 Win Shares per 600. And right behind Clark is Jim Thome, who's going to move up before he moves down. Before he's done, though, Bagwell should rank among the top 10 post-World War II first basemen in this category.
Next let's look at a modified version of on-base percentage plus slugging percentage (OPS+), which is essentially OPS adjusted for a player's home ballparks and normalized to the league average (with 100 as the baseline). Why OPS+ rather than basic stats like on-base percentage, home runs, RBI, et cetera? Because conditions change (for example, it's a lot easier to hit a home run in 2004 than it was in 1964).
OPS+
1. Frank Thomas 165
2. Mark McGwire 164
3. Dick Allen 157
4. Johnny Mize 157
5. H. Greenberg 156
6. Jeff Bagwell 154
7. W. McCovey 148
Basically the same players here, which shouldn't be a surprise because most of a first baseman's value lies in his hitting. The guy who really moves up here is Thomas, who is, according to Win Shares -- not to mention just about anybody who's ever seen him play first base -- a terrible fielder. It's worth noting the presence on both lists of Dick Allen and Johnny Mize. Allen's not in the Hall of Fame, Mize is, and both are terribly underrated as truly fantastic hitters.
Reviewing all of these ... In career Win Shares, Bagwell ranks behind two Hall of Famers and ahead of five. In Win Shares expressed as a rate -- Win Shares per 600 plate appearances -- Bagwell ranks behind three Hall of Famers, and ahead of three. In adjusted OPS, he ranks just behind two Hall of Famers, and ahead of five.

OurBitchinMinny
08-30-2004, 04:48 PM
Reading some threads talking about Frank made this thought pop into my mind.

Remember the good ol days. 2-2, 2 doubles 3 RBI 2 walks 4 runs scored. Frank is MVP, everybody is talking about the Big Hurt. .340 averages, 40 home runs, over 100 RBIs.

Now all we have is this crappy Frank Thomas.I mean in a full year, the bear minimum this schmuck gives you is 40 homers, 100 runs scored, and 100 RBIs. What a loser. He's such a clubhouse cancer, in fact I blame all the Sox failures on Frank. He deserves to be hated by the media.

Ahem, excuse me. So my point is, what will it take for people to realize that the old Frank is still here, just in a different form? He is still one of the top offensive players in the game when healthy. It's a damn shame how he is spit on day in and day out. Why is Chicago hailing guys like Prior and Moises Alou? They haven't done half the things Frank has done for Chicago. Worst part of him being injured this year, aside from the fact that it probably cost the Sox the division, is people are going to be saying how injury prone Frank is, when we know that is not the case. Just another handicap for Frank in the respect category. Atleast he has the respect of Sox fans, and maybe that's all that matters.
Frank has gotten bad rap at times, but lets not forget that he is not blameless. And his average has been awful the last few years and his Ks up.

balke
08-30-2004, 04:54 PM
Frank has gotten bad rap at times, but lets not forget that he is not blameless. And his average has been awful the last few years and his Ks up.

Awful, or not +.310? look at his OBP anyways. Frank is on base a lot, regardless of average. If bonds was hitting .275 with his 200 walks, would you say his average is awful?


Frank has declined, but kept a lot of power. he's had to adjust to his gigantic strike zone, which on the inside is just ridiculous. You could hit his shoe on an inside pitch, and it would still be called a strike. He's worked hard adjusting his swing to fix that problem.

pinwheels3530
08-30-2004, 07:12 PM
Remember in'97,the 50th anniversary of Jackie Robinson breaking into the minors ?? Remember Frank's whole attitude of how Jackie wasn't that important to him??

He might want to rethink that statement.Where was Sox PR doofus Rob Dumbass (Gallas) while this went down??

O.K if you ever post anything stupid I'll make sure never to bring it up:redneck

SoxFan76
08-30-2004, 07:23 PM
Let's not forget that perhaps he was slumping because he played the last couple of weeks with that stress fracture before he went down .
I was thinking that, I was going to write it, and I didn't. But yes, you are correct. He played a while on that bum foot, which is why it pissed me off more that people were calling Frank a puss because he wouldn't stay to be a decoy.