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dan
08-27-2004, 10:17 AM
How dumb does KW look for one component of the Fredddy G trade? He refused to give up Joe Crede to the Mariners, and look how that's turned out! The Sox would have been better off keeping either Jeremy Reed or Olivo. Instead, we've got a .235 hitter who's worthless at this point. It goes to show how we overvalue the wrong players.

thepaulbowski
08-27-2004, 10:18 AM
Beating a dead horse....

Clembasbal
08-27-2004, 10:20 AM
we've got a .235 hitter who's worthless at this point. It goes to show how we overvalue the wrong players.
Well, I will agree with Crede needing to go...Davis is young and a 1st Round Draft pick. He still has potential and he is showing it, next year he hits .250 with 20 HR's, solid numbers from a cathers...and he calls the game, something Olivo was too stupid to do.

Rocky Soprano
08-27-2004, 10:22 AM
It happened, get over it already!

Palehose Pete
08-27-2004, 10:29 AM
I disagree with you about Crede - his offense numbers stink this year but the impression is that he's solid on defense and just needs to get his bat in working order. Granted, he's had two seasons of facing big league pitching and he still hasn't performed to everyones expectations, but I think that since this team is DOA, he should be allowed another half year to develop. I can't help but think that everyone who is so ready to s***can Crede probably wanted to do the same to Rowand when he was struggling. Now Rowand is the poster child for player development for the Sox and people still haven't learned their lessons. Let Crede go for another half season next year at least.

eshunn2001
08-27-2004, 10:35 AM
I disagree with you about Crede - his offense numbers stink this year but the impression is that he's solid on defense and just needs to get his bat in working order. Granted, he's had two seasons of facing big league pitching and he still hasn't performed to everyones expectations, but I think that since this team is DOA, he should be allowed another half year to develop. I can't help but think that everyone who is so ready to s***can Crede probably wanted to do the same to Rowand when he was struggling. Now Rowand is the poster child for player development for the Sox and people still haven't learned their lessons. Let Crede go for another half season next year at least.
Yeah but when Rowand supposedly sucked he was hitting .270 Crede is not so lucky. But who knows we may have Adrian Beltre Part 2 with Crede. High expectations, Sucks for 3 years and becomes an MVP in the 4th year.

kittle42
08-27-2004, 10:37 AM
Is there a redundancy tag?

In the meantime....

:threadsucks

PatK
08-27-2004, 10:50 AM
I wouldn't give up on Crede just yet.

It's really only his second full season in the bigs. Anyone heard of the sophmore slump?

I'd give him another year to see what happens. I don't want to see them give up on him, only to have him go elsewhere and excel. We already did that once with Foulke.

Joe's still young enough where he can adjust. It's not like he doesn't have the tools, it's his mental approach.

oeo
08-27-2004, 11:05 AM
What do you mean we could have still had Olivo? Tell me if I'm wrong but didn't the M's want BOTH Crede and Olivo in that trade? Let's see we got rid of Reed who is one of those "great prospects" we always seem to have and we got a great pitcher, kept Crede (who I still think can be awesome), and got a good catcher in return. Unless Davis becomes a real bust and Reed along with Olivo become outstanding, we stole Freddy.

Iguana775
08-27-2004, 11:26 AM
Is there a redundancy tag?

In the meantime....

:threadsucks
we need a pic of a cartoon horse getting the crap beat out of him by a roided up SamMe. LOL...that would be funny as hell!

Aidan
08-27-2004, 11:32 AM
While Crede is sucking this season, he has proven that he can hit in the majors. Crede hit .285 in 2002 and last season he hit .261 with 19 HR's and 75 RBI's. This is something Jeremy Reed has yet to prove.

pudge
08-27-2004, 12:06 PM
While Crede is sucking this season, he has proven that he can hit in the majors. Crede hit .285 in 2002 and last season he hit .261 with 19 HR's and 75 RBI's. This is something Jeremy Reed has yet to prove.
He'll prove that and a whole lot more.

I'm ssang, and I'm still an IDIOT!
08-27-2004, 12:10 PM
How can anyone defend Crede?!?!? All you have to do is actually watch him bat and you know that he will forever be a crap hitter. He has no use. Slow, right-handed, long swing, can't hit opposite field, can;t advance runner, can't hit with RISP, can't bunt, pops out a ton, K's too much, and every now and then hits a HR.

Other than that, I think Crede has a really bright future! I wish we could ship Crede, Borhchard, and Ken Williams off to Iraq.

fquaye149
08-27-2004, 12:28 PM
He'll prove that and a whole lot more.
thanks nostradamus. can you tell me which horse to bet in the 3:30 race now?


do we even know for sure the M's wanted crede?

kittle42
08-27-2004, 12:29 PM
He'll prove that and a whole lot more.
Someone may have once said this about Hiram Boccachica.

JRIG
08-27-2004, 12:34 PM
Someone may have once said this about Hiram Boccachica.
Or Robin Ventura.

PINWHEELS
08-27-2004, 01:27 PM
How dumb does KW look for one component of the Fredddy G trade? He refused to give up Joe Crede to the Mariners, and look how that's turned out! The Sox would have been better off keeping either Jeremy Reed or Olivo. Instead, we've got a .235 hitter who's worthless at this point. It goes to show how we overvalue the wrong players.Speaking of Garcia, Does anyone else notice that he looks allot like THE ROCK!:o:

fquaye149
08-27-2004, 01:49 PM
Or Robin Ventura.

or joe borchard

should we really go back and forth naming busts and people who panned out?

or can we just admit that "he'll prove that and a whole lot more" is as presumptious a statement as hawk saying "j. g. will win 18 games" and should be reworded as "i think there's a good chance he'll probe that and a whole lot more"

Iguana775
08-27-2004, 04:19 PM
Speaking of Garcia, Does anyone else notice that he looks allot like THE ROCK!:o:
Extremely like him.

DumpJerry
08-27-2004, 04:29 PM
Alright, I'm not the biggest Crede fan out here. But, a friend pointed out to me (as did one of the postings on this thread), that it was not that long ago we were saying the same things about Rowand. Like earlier this season! Now, show me 10 people out of the nearly 4,000 registered users of this site who thing Rowand is a waste of resources.

When Crede came up at the end of 2001 we were all impressed, he was hitting homers as if the only salary Jerry paid him was by the homer. If you watch him closely these days, you will notice his mechanics is slightly off, that is why he is missing his hits. Hopefully he will be able to correct this in the off season so that we can learn why it was the M's wanted him so badly.

balke
08-27-2004, 04:38 PM
How many times has this thread been started under a different title? should be KW bound


I don't think it was a straight Crede trade anyways. it was Crede and Lee, or Crede and Olivo or crede and Rowand.

How do you know you would've gotten a 3rd basemen of any kinda back? At least with Olivo, we got Davis to fill in, and had Burke as backup. Oh crap, now I'm doing it... this thread sucks.

santo=dorf
08-27-2004, 04:39 PM
Speaking of Garcia, Does anyone else notice that he looks allot like THE ROCK!:o:
Yeah, and a hispanic Mark Buehrle.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/action/ph_150119.jpg:burly

jeremyb1
08-27-2004, 10:08 PM
Why do people insist on believing that if you've yet to accomplish something, you'll never be able to do it. Reed hasn't hit .260 so we just assume he won't ever be able to? How would you like it if your employer took that attituded towards you? "Well he's never proven that he can work in upper management."

cornball
08-27-2004, 10:17 PM
Why do people insist on believing that if you've yet to accomplish something, you'll never be able to do it. Reed hasn't hit .260 so we just assume he won't ever be able to? How would you like it if your employer took that attituded towards you? "Well he's never proven that he can work in upper management."

Well my friend, it happens in the workplace everyday. The difference is this is the big leagues and you have to prove yourself to get a chance and sometimes that doesn't work either. If you don't think there is politics in baseball your kidding yourself.

kitekrazy
08-27-2004, 10:24 PM
It made sense to trade Olivo when you had Burke and Alomar. If you traded Crede you had to hope Uribe would fill the job or even put Konerko there, worse yet Jose. The way KW is going he'll get Olivo back in a trade along with Koch.

A. Cavatica
08-27-2004, 10:38 PM
In my dream universe, we traded Crede, Borchard, and Morse for Garcia and Davis. Olivo and Davis would've made a nice catching duo, no?

fquaye149
08-28-2004, 12:52 AM
Why do people insist on believing that if you've yet to accomplish something, you'll never be able to do it. Reed hasn't hit .260 so we just assume he won't ever be able to? How would you like it if your employer took that attituded towards you? "Well he's never proven that he can work in upper management."
gee. change "reed" to "crede" and you have kw support post of the millenium.

Mohoney
08-28-2004, 02:11 AM
I thought that Crede's name was tossed around involving a potential Gil Meche trade in mid August that fell through.

If we could have pulled the trigger on that, our rotation would look pretty good for next year. Maybe Seattle would still be willing to pursue this over the off-season? They need a 3rd baseman, we need another starter.

Of course, with Meche's flashes of brilliance since being called back up, I think that Bavasi has probably been convinced to keep Meche around and take a chance on him.

jeremyb1
08-29-2004, 01:47 AM
Well my friend, it happens in the workplace everyday. The difference is this is the big leagues and you have to prove yourself to get a chance and sometimes that doesn't work either. If you don't think there is politics in baseball your kidding yourself.

Well, according to the majority of posters on this board, it's impossible to prove yourself capable of anything until you have an extended chance in the major leagues. So if you have to get promoted to the majors to prove youreself and you're worthless until you've proven yourself in the majors that seems like a catch 22.

jeremyb1
08-29-2004, 01:49 AM
gee. change "reed" to "crede" and you have kw support post of the millenium.

Again, both players being prospects in the Sox system doesn't make them similar. If Crede ever had a season as good as Reed's '03 it was when he was three full years older. That's not even remotely similar.

fquaye149
08-29-2004, 10:15 AM
Again, both players being prospects in the Sox system doesn't make them similar. If Crede ever had a season as good as Reed's '03 it was when he was three full years older. That's not even remotely similar. likewise, if jeremy reed puts up mlb #'s similar to crede's 2001. . .it would be a pleasant surprise to everyone

jabrch
08-29-2004, 10:47 AM
2 prospects, one plays LF, one plays 3B. Both have tremendous upside according to all the professional baseball people out there. Crede plays great D, and is father up along the learning curve than Reed since he has already been here a while. Crede was on our MAJOR LEAGUE ROSTER and was asssumed to be a key part of any hope we had to win it this year.

KW made a logical decision at the time he made it. I can't fault him for it.

If it turns out bad, so be it. But it is way to early to come to that conclusion based on A) Ben Davs vs Miguel Olivo and B) Jeremy Reed not yet having enough time at the MLB level to be fairly evaluated.

jeremyb1
08-29-2004, 11:53 AM
likewise, if jeremy reed puts up mlb #'s similar to crede's 2001. . .it would be a pleasant surprise to everyone

2001 when he hit .220/.272/.283? Do you mean 2002? If so, why are people suddenly acting as though Crede had a great season one year based on just 200 at bats. He only played 53 games! If he posted an OPS over a 1.000 or something I might say, man he was really dominant for those 53 games, maybe Reed won't ever have a stretch like that but it was only .285/.311/.515. That's good for a 3B over a career or maybe a season but hitting that in .200 at bats is wholly unimpressive in my opinion. C'mon. I think it would be far more suprising if Jeremy Reed failed to have 200 good at bats in his career. He's hitting .304 in AAA as a 23 year old. The guy is going to play in the major leagues that's a given and most likely for a pretty long time. If he doesn't have a good stretch of 200 at bats even if he becomes a fourth outfielder or something it'd be suprising.

jeremyb1
08-29-2004, 12:05 PM
2 prospects, one plays LF, one plays 3B. Both have tremendous upside according to all the professional baseball people out there.

Which professional baseball people? Exactly how good? Where'd they say it? Barry Bonds and Vlad Guererro are both tremendous players but Bonds is worlds better than Vlad right now. So saying both have tremendous upside doesn't make them equal in my mind. Reed was second on BP's top 40 prospects list last season wheras Crede peaked at 17 on the same list. Reed was 30 last season on BA's top 100 prospects - which I view as a mistake personally - yet Crede was only rated the 10th best player in the IL by them the season before he reached the majors. It is my opinion that Reed is a significantly better prospect than Crede was while he was in the minors.

OEO Magglio
08-29-2004, 01:24 PM
Which professional baseball people? Exactly how good? Where'd they say it? Barry Bonds and Vlad Guererro are both tremendous players but Bonds is worlds better than Vlad right now. So saying both have tremendous upside doesn't make them equal in my mind. Reed was second on BP's top 40 prospects list last season wheras Crede peaked at 17 on the same list. Reed was 30 last season on BA's top 100 prospects - which I view as a mistake personally - yet Crede was only rated the 10th best player in the IL by them the season before he reached the majors. It is my opinion that Reed is a significantly better prospect than Crede was while he was in the minors.
Jeremy, I got a question for you, you mention that reed was 2nd on ba's prospect list and that's what your basing some of your judgement on, howcome when I told you that ba had Justin Jones as the cubs number 2 prospect, you said you don't trust ba's judgement. Double Standard, my friend?

Anyways this argument is ridiculous, kenny didn't trade crede because he didn't want to trade 2 regulars in the same deal, crede obviously has been horrible but like many others have said who knows if reed will ever make it. Also, how smart does kenny williams look for having the mariners throw in ben davis into the deal, or how about trading for one heck of a starting pitcher that is on our staff for years to come. This is a dumb argument. :rolleyes:

jeremyb1
08-29-2004, 04:00 PM
Jeremy, I got a question for you, you mention that reed was 2nd on ba's prospect list and that's what your basing some of your judgement on, howcome when I told you that ba had Justin Jones as the cubs number 2 prospect, you said you don't trust ba's judgement. Double Standard, my friend?

No. Reed was second on BP's (Baseball Prospectus') list of the top 40 prospects in baseball. Jones was second on BA's (Baseball America's) list of the top ten prospects in the Cubs farm system. First of all, ranking prospects within an organization is somewhat worthless in my opinion since there's no context. Some clubs have at least 5 or 6 and maybe even 10 prospects better than the number one prospect in the Yankees system. I tried to include Baseball America's rankings in addition to BP's to give a well rounded report as to the opinion on Reed vs. Crede. That said, I have no intention of hiding the fact that I personally place a lot more faith in BP's methodology with BA's hype regarding Jones as a prime example. Jones was placed at 2 on the Cubs list based on his tools and 11 starts in rookie ball and one start in low A ball. With the extremely varied and low level of competition in high school and rookie ball, there's very little performance there that can be easily evaluated and I have a problem with regarding a 19 year old pitcher as a top flight prospect over players that have proven themselves at the higher levels particularly in light of the injuries that youngl pitchers tend to suffer.

Anyways this argument is ridiculous, kenny didn't trade crede because he didn't want to trade 2 regulars in the same deal, crede obviously has been horrible but like many others have said who knows if reed will ever make it. Also, how smart does kenny williams look for having the mariners throw in ben davis into the deal, or how about trading for one heck of a starting pitcher that is on our staff for years to come. This is a dumb argument. :rolleyes:

Well could Reed be worse than Crede has been thus far? Like I said, he's a 23 year old that's hitting reasonably well in AAA so the odds are incredibly good he'll have a substantial major league career. We don't know he'll be great but we certainly don't know he won't be an All-Star calliber player either and the door is certainly closing on that possibility for Crede. Crede has been roughly replacement level this season so theoretically we could've easily replaced him via the minors or a trade without losing much this season.

And with the Davis argument again? C'mon. That's crap. If you want to debate that then go back a few pages to the thread started for that purpose and expose the flaws in my argument that Davis was purely a throw in no matter what and that it is assanine to insist KW thought he had some huge find.

OEO Magglio
08-29-2004, 04:06 PM
No. Reed was second on BP's (Baseball Prospectus') list of the top 40 prospects in baseball. Jones was second on BA's (Baseball America's) list of the top ten prospects in the Cubs farm system. First of all, ranking prospects within an organization is somewhat worthless in my opinion since there's no context. Some clubs have at least 5 or 6 and maybe even 10 prospects better than the number one prospect in the Yankees system. I tried to include Baseball America's rankings in addition to BP's to give a well rounded report as to the opinion on Reed vs. Crede. That said, I have no intention of hiding the fact that I personally place a lot more faith in BP's methodology with BA's hype regarding Jones as a prime example. Jones was placed at 2 on the Cubs list based on his tools and 11 starts in rookie ball and one start in low A ball. With the extremely varied and low level of competition in high school and rookie ball, there's very little performance there that can be easily evaluated and I have a problem with regarding a 19 year old pitcher as a top flight prospect over players that have proven themselves at the higher levels particularly in light of the injuries that youngl pitchers tend to suffer.



Well could Reed be worse than Crede has been thus far? Like I said, he's a 23 year old that's hitting reasonably well in AAA so the odds are incredibly good he'll have a substantial major league career. We don't know he'll be great but we certainly don't know he won't be an All-Star calliber player either and the door is certainly closing on that possibility for Crede. Crede has been roughly replacement level this season so theoretically we could've easily replaced him via the minors or a trade without losing much this season.

And with the Davis argument again? C'mon. That's crap. If you want to debate that then go back a few pages to the thread started for that purpose and expose the flaws in my argument that Davis was purely a throw in no matter what and that it is assanine to insist KW thought he had some huge find.
My fault about the bp, ba mix up, I misread what you said. I'm not going to argue about the Ben Davis thing, you can think what you want but there is no way you can be sure kenny didn't think he was a good find and there is no way either of us could prove either way. About Crede and Reed, Reed has the potential to be a very good player but so do a lot of guys. Maybe he'll turn out great maybe he'll turn out to be nothing. The thing is kenny didn't want to trade 2 regulars when at the time they were right in the thick of a pennant race and that's the reason that happened.

jeremyb1
08-29-2004, 04:17 PM
My fault about the bp, ba mix up, I misread what you said. I'm not going to argue about the Ben Davis thing, you can think what you want but there is no way you can be sure kenny didn't think he was a good find and there is no way either of us could prove either way. About Crede and Reed, Reed has the potential to be a very good player but so do a lot of guys. Maybe he'll turn out great maybe he'll turn out to be nothing. The thing is kenny didn't want to trade 2 regulars when at the time they were right in the thick of a pennant race and that's the reason that happened.

You're right. We don't know KW thought he stole Davis from the M's but if that is the case, he didn't act like it. I don't recall even the standard press conference line of "and we think we got a pretty good player in Ben Davis also." Kenny didn't talk highly of him as a piece of the trade as he did about about Cotts and the random 27 year old in A ball we got from the A's in the Foulke-Koch deal.

With regards to Reed you're correct that there are a lot of players with potential but not a lot of players with potential holding their own in AAA right now. As is witnessed by BA's hype of Jones a lot of guys are put on the radar when they still have tons of hurdles to overcome. Crede is a good example considering how much attention he got in A ball.