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infohawk
08-27-2004, 09:06 AM
Pretty well sums up the problems of the team.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040826morrissey,1,6271134.column?coll=cs-whitesox-utility

Dan H
08-27-2004, 09:23 AM
It is a very good piece, though I don't think we have to apologize to Jerry Manuel for anything. Manuel was awful at the end.

I don't agree with the assessment of Ordonez, but otherwise Morrissey did a great job of anlayzing the team. The rebuilding, which began in mid 1997, has provided for one division championship and no more. It is time to let go of the memories of 2000 and realize that drastic change has to happen here. Blaming everything on injuries is not the answer. The answer is real change. Losing to Detroit is not acceptable. We need to see some new faces on the South Side.

Brian26
08-27-2004, 09:25 AM
Someone else actually agrees with me? It's not JR's fault, but this core of players.

Procol Harum
08-27-2004, 09:44 AM
Someone else actually agrees with me? It's not JR's fault, but this core of players.
JR is always to "blame" either for hideous pr sensibilities, unrealistic pricing policies (I paid $10 to park at Camden Yards last week while on vacation and got a seat there via Ticketmaster that I wouldn't be able to buy unless I was a season ticket holder at the Cell--oh, and it cost me a buck or two less than what the Sox charge), being unwilling to do what it takes on the front end financially to make this team a serious contender, and because he is the guy who ultimately hires the people who make all the baseball decisions for both the Sox major and minor league operations.

That said, the article is indeed, right on in its diagnosis that this team has some real chemistry and mental makeup problems and can't win as currently constituted. But the question remains--who put this bunch of mopes together and has left them out there these last several years? Jose Valentin, Joe Crede and John Garland didn't pencil themselves onto the roster....

owensmouth
08-27-2004, 09:50 AM
Morrissey's main point is simple: get rid of everyone. He offers no suggestions on improving the team, just on dismantling it. He's employed by the Cubune and is anti-White Sox.

Essentially, he wants to get rid of the White Sox, period.

Iguana775
08-27-2004, 10:16 AM
Perhaps you recall Disco Demolition Night. It's time for Sox Demolition Night. Everybody must go—via trade, waivers, Adopt-A-Pet, whatever. It's time to start over.

*****! :supernana:

wdelaney72
08-27-2004, 10:18 AM
JR is responsible becuase he hired KW to field a winning team. That remains to be seen.

KW is responsible becuase he compiled this team of crap.

Ultimately, the players are responsible becuase they have underachieved and not executed as they are able.

The bottom line, is I think the team should be completely overhauled and KW should get one last chance. If it fails again, he should be shown the door.

misty60481
08-27-2004, 10:24 AM
Its easy to tell somebody what is the trouble with your team, but lets face it if they dumped Frank, Maggs, Paulie, Carlos, Rowand who would come to the games and attendance means money so unless you have enough in the bank to start over and can stand some very lean years were are you??? I know JRs cheapness in some areas has hurt but it can still be fixed. We were on top when we lost our 2 best hitters I dont see any reason to completely dismantle..

I'm ssang, and I'm still an IDIOT!
08-27-2004, 10:33 AM
I have been saying this for over 2 years now. THE PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM IS IT'S CORE PLAYERS!!!! The makeup of this team obviously doesn't work well with winning ball games. Now I do place A LOT OF THE BLAME on Ken Williams for being the arrogant/stuborn jerk that he is. Kenny refuses to face reality and acknowledge that this team ain't built right. Stop supporting Kenny....he is NOT a good GM and he is an arrogant jerk on top of that! This team stinks. And I don't wanna hear all that crap about "Ohhhh, he really want to win badly." Well, guess what? Who the hell doesn't want to win?!?! Especailly a GM!?!? I am pissed.:angry:

gosox41
08-27-2004, 10:38 AM
JR is responsible becuase he hired KW to field a winning team. That remains to be seen.

KW is responsible becuase he compiled this team of crap.

Ultimately, the players are responsible becuase they have underachieved and not executed as they are able.

The bottom line, is I think the team should be completely overhauled and KW should get one last chance. If it fails again, he should be shown the door.
No more chances for KW. How many excuses can people keep making for this guy. This year is the first legit excuse in that we lost our 2 best hitters. But before that there really is no excuse. Results count. KW's has been negative for 4 years.

I've been anti-KW since before I came here ( and that was in Oct. 2002) So far I've been proven right. How much longer can the KW supporters stay on this sinking ship and keep backing him up? It's like some people here work for him (or maybe are him).

Since KW's been here the Sox have legitimately been in one pennant race at the start of September. I consider 'being in a pennant' race being within 4 games of fit place on Sept. 1.

The ironic thing is that the 2 players the Sox lost to injury are the two KW wanted out of here anyway. He spent all winter trying to trade Ordonez and hoping that A-Rod trade would go through with Boston. As for Thomas, he did exercise the Dminishing Skills Clause in his contract with the intention of having him leave.

And before anyone says, you don't know who KW would have replaced them with keep this in mind. KW's plan was to trade for Nomar and then sign Juan Gonzalez (need I say more). As for losing Thomas, go ahead and find me one player who can boast a .420 career OBP and hit 40+ HR's in a season that was available and can be had for $8 mill. per. Now forget about money and name me one who was legitimately available.



Bob

Flight #24
08-27-2004, 10:44 AM
And before anyone says, you don't know who KW would have replaced them with keep this in mind. KW's plan was to trade for Nomar and then sign Juan Gonzalez (need I say more). As for losing Thomas, go ahead and find me one player who can boast a .420 career OBP and hit 40+ HR's in a season that was available and can be had for $8 mill. per. Now forget about money and name me one who was legitimately available.

Bob
You're not including the whole picture, IIRC the plan was Mags for Nomar, sign Juan Gone, and trade Valentin for Garcia (at the time, that was the rumored price for him, until the M's signed Aurilia. Personally, Maggs & Jose for Nomar & Garcia's not bad.

As for Frank, but wasn't the issue not so much just "getting rid of Frank", but also his salary? IIRC he was slated to make 10-12mil pre-DSC. While you can't find a Frank-like hitter as a replacement, you could have gotten a pretty good SP and had some left over for a decent hitter (Catalanotto/Hatteberg type of guy).

It's not as simple as saying "He wanted to get rid of Frank"

Lip Man 1
08-27-2004, 10:45 AM
Dan & Procol:

Both are right on the money with their comments about this club. The players don't work together but why can't the Sox get new players, better players, players who know how to play?

For that answer you need to go to the guy who sets the budget and hires the front office staff.

Lip

Flight #24
08-27-2004, 10:49 AM
No more chances for KW. How many excuses can people keep making for this guy. This year is the first legit excuse in that we lost our 2 best hitters. But before that there really is no excuse. Results count. KW's has been negative for 4 years.


Really? You wouldn't say that losing Frank & Wells in 2001 qualifies? Those were arguably their 2 most irreplaceable players from the start of that year.

02 was certainly killed by the Ritchie deal, and 03 IMO by Manuel (although the Koch deal didn't help). 01 & 04 have been killed by injuries to top players that are virtually impossible for a mid-level payroll team to replace. On net, I'd say KW's done an above average job with his non-draft moves.

Now player development, I can't say the same. While I think KW's done a pretty solid job of plucking prospects from other teams in small deals, and I don't think he's given up on many great prospects, I think the fact that none of hte Sox draftees from the past 5 years have done anything (yet) is not a good sign. There's still time, and the recent crop looks promising, but that's an area where I can say KW has underperformed relative to guys like Beane & Ryan.

Flight #24
08-27-2004, 10:56 AM
It is a very good piece, though I don't think we have to apologize to Jerry Manuel for anything. Manuel was awful at the end.

I don't agree with the assessment of Ordonez, but otherwise Morrissey did a great job of anlayzing the team. The rebuilding, which began in mid 1997, has provided for one division championship and no more. It is time to let go of the memories of 2000 and realize that drastic change has to happen here. Blaming everything on injuries is not the answer. The answer is real change. Losing to Detroit is not acceptable. We need to see some new faces on the South Side.
My problem with the piece is that there's no real depth to the piece or any insight/analysis. "Sox have had talent and haven't translated it into performance, blow them up". No duh. Typical Cubune fluff when it comes to the South Side. "Sox bad. Need change."

How about a little analysis before making moves, huh? WHY haven't things worked out? WHAT's missing? HOW do you restructure the team to maintain the good things that have been here and eliminate holes or add the missing pieces?

All the people complaining about KW not having a plan, and then coming around with the "trade 'em all, blow up the core - it doesn't work" need to recognize that they're not exactly helping things. You have some very good core offensive assets: Frank, Paulie, Carlos, ARow. Don't throw them away because "it hasn't worked", figure out what's missing (IMO a leadoff hitter) and add it to them.

SoxFan76
08-27-2004, 11:12 AM
I agree, his job as a journalist is to explain his story. Basically the article was "this team can't win, so start over. The End."

BUT, at the same time he is 100% correct. Now I don't think the whole team needs to be demolished, because there is a really nice core group of players. As the season goes on, I don't find myself attached to players as much. So that means Paulie can go, if it makes the team better. Even Carlos can go if it makes the team better. Stay with the core of Garcia, Buerhle, Contreras, Shingo, Marte, Rowand, and Frank. There you have 2 top notch starters, a damn good number 3 pitcher, a right handed (Shingo) and left handed (Damaso) specialist, a 5 tool player that can hit anywhere in the lineup without going into a horrible slump, and one of the best right handed hitters of all time batting 4th. I'm actually all for keeping Timo as a 4th outfielder too.

Don't worry about signing big contracts to big name all-stars. It's not neccesary. Frank is the only all-star the Sox need. Get those infamous "grinders" KW was always talking about. Look at those freakin Twins: Koskie, Rivas, LeCroy, Jones, Hunter, Ford, Stewart. There is like 2 big names on that list. And guess who is in first. Sure, the Twins haven't had much post season success, but we know the Sox have much superior pitching which would help a long playoff run.

That sounds easy enough...

infohawk
08-27-2004, 11:22 AM
"My problem with the piece is that there's no real depth to the piece or any insight/analysis. "Sox have had talent and haven't translated it into performance, blow them up". No duh. Typical Cubune fluff when it comes to the South Side. "Sox bad. Need change."

Hey, he's got to leave himself some material for the follow-up piece criticizing whatever moves KW does make!!!:D:

JB98
08-27-2004, 11:23 AM
My problem with the piece is that there's no real depth to the piece or any insight/analysis. "Sox have had talent and haven't translated it into performance, blow them up". No duh. Typical Cubune fluff when it comes to the South Side. "Sox bad. Need change."

How about a little analysis before making moves, huh? WHY haven't things worked out? WHAT's missing? HOW do you restructure the team to maintain the good things that have been here and eliminate holes or add the missing pieces?

All the people complaining about KW not having a plan, and then coming around with the "trade 'em all, blow up the core - it doesn't work" need to recognize that they're not exactly helping things. You have some very good core offensive assets: Frank, Paulie, Carlos, ARow. Don't throw them away because "it hasn't worked", figure out what's missing (IMO a leadoff hitter) and add it to them.
I totally agree. Morrissey and many others are blaming this team's problems on its best players. I don't understand that. Suggesting that we should get rid of Frank is ridiculous. He may be hated and despised in the media, but he is arguably the greatest player this franchise has ever seen. He should hit his 500th HR here, retire here and go into the HOF wearing a White Sox cap. Why trade Konerko and Lee? If we do, we better get a boatload in return. Can't people see that the holes at 2B, SS and 3B, the fifth starter spot and the bullpen are what has killed this team? To blame this mess on Frank, Maggs, Konerko and Lee is just wrong. I would have blamed Paulie last year, but not this year.

Wanne
08-27-2004, 11:24 AM
As for losing Thomas, go ahead and find me one player who can boast a .420 career OBP and hit 40+ HR's in a season that was available and can be had for $8 mill. per. Now forget about money and name me one who was legitimately available.

Well...at one point it looked like we would end up with Andrew Jones and his whopper contract. Maybe that could have been a good thing...maybe not.

The thing that I find strange is I saw that the Sox were on pace to hit 242 HRs as a team this year, surpassing their all-time previous high...and making them the first team to hit 200 HRs or more for 5 straight consecutive seasons...and this coming with the 2 big sticks out of the lineup. My thoughts are...WHOOOOOP-T-FRICKIN' DOO! HRs are nice and all...but how many have been solo shots?

JRIG
08-27-2004, 11:31 AM
Pretty well sums up the problems of the team.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040826morrissey,1,6271134.column?coll=cs-whitesox-utilitySo the problem with this team is not that nobody gets on base, not that the GM is clueless and acquired all the players Morrisey is criticizing, not that this team has had a hole at 5th starter and 2B and catcher that hasn't been addressed in three years, but that the players aren't playing as a team, the very thing Ozzie Guillen was brought here to fix?

Right...

gosox41
08-27-2004, 12:08 PM
So the problem with this team is not that nobody gets on base, not that the GM is clueless and acquired all the players Morrisey is criticizing, not that this team has had a hole at 5th starter and 2B and catcher that hasn't been addressed in three years, but that the players aren't playing as a team, the very thing Ozzie Guillen was brought here to fix?

Right...
Exactly. Now you're getting it. That's how KW supporters stand by him. Never mind the fact that KW brought in most of these guys. Funny how the Sox best hitters were here before KW got his claws into the team. PK, Lee, Thomas, Ordonez all hear before KW became GM.

My personal favorite is when people won't blame KW for not making many moves going into this season because he had no room in the budget. Well who signed most of these guys that brought the payroll up? Who gave Ordonez a contract that spread almost half of his $30 mill. of a 3 year contract? Who thought it was a good idea to overpay for PK? Who decided Koch was worth $6 mill this year and was accounted for in that total during the offseason.

But it's not KW's fault.


Bob

gosox41
08-27-2004, 12:16 PM
You're not including the whole picture, IIRC the plan was Mags for Nomar, sign Juan Gone, and trade Valentin for Garcia (at the time, that was the rumored price for him, until the M's signed Aurilia. Personally, Maggs & Jose for Nomar & Garcia's not bad.

As for Frank, but wasn't the issue not so much just "getting rid of Frank", but also his salary? IIRC he was slated to make 10-12mil pre-DSC. While you can't find a Frank-like hitter as a replacement, you could have gotten a pretty good SP and had some left over for a decent hitter (Catalanotto/Hatteberg type of guy).

It's not as simple as saying "He wanted to get rid of Frank"
Those Valentin for Garcia rumors may have been true, but it's hard to believe that's all Seattle wanted. Especially if you conisder how much we paid up to get Garcia in June when Seattle was way out of it. And the fact is, if a Valentin for Garcia trade was on the table over this winter, how did he say no to it to begin with? A chance to get a good pitcher for an overpaid SS who strikes out way too much. He should have done that deal right then and there instead of the one he did in June.

Any if he didn't want to get rid of Frank (which I think he did) why exercise the clause. Frank in his worst year (not including the 27 game stint in 2001) is better then PK in his best. So he knows he has Frank here,why extend PK. Why not free up that money to get a SP and a hitter? Don't tell my PK is better then Frank. I can make a strong argument that Frank at $10 mill per is a better value then PK at $8.5.

And for the record, I was against the PK signging back then.

Lastly, I don't know if KW is living in his own world, but Juan Gone is af often injured head case. Why do we need that here?


Bob

gosox41
08-27-2004, 12:18 PM
Really? You wouldn't say that losing Frank & Wells in 2001 qualifies? Those were arguably their 2 most irreplaceable players from the start of that year.

02 was certainly killed by the Ritchie deal, and 03 IMO by Manuel (although the Koch deal didn't help). 01 & 04 have been killed by injuries to top players that are virtually impossible for a mid-level payroll team to replace. On net, I'd say KW's done an above average job with his non-draft moves.

Now player development, I can't say the same. While I think KW's done a pretty solid job of plucking prospects from other teams in small deals, and I don't think he's given up on many great prospects, I think the fact that none of hte Sox draftees from the past 5 years have done anything (yet) is not a good sign. There's still time, and the recent crop looks promising, but that's an area where I can say KW has underperformed relative to guys like Beane & Ryan.

Losing Frank hurt, but the Sox finished 13 1/2 games out that year. Would a healthy Frank and a healthy David Wells have mattered in terms of actually making the playoffs? I doubt it.


Then again Frank and Magglio and Colon (who would have taken on Wells role in 2001) were all healthy for the whole year last year. They still didn't win. And Manuel was around to screw up 2001 as well.


Bob

Deadguy
08-27-2004, 12:43 PM
It's not as simple as saying "He wanted to get rid of Frank"
You don't have to read between the lines to know that Frank and KW have a personal vendetta against each other. Actually, it seems rather one sided, since I've never heard Thomas publicly ridicule KW. I guess Thomas doesn't live by the "eye for an eye" philosophy. For whatever reason, Frank has not fit in with KW's "master plan", and he has wanted to get rid of Thomas since he took over as GM in 2001.

KW excercised the DSC without discussing the matter with JR first. There's more to this situation than just money. It's about publicly embarassing a player who was a year removed from a career threatening injury. The matter could hvae been handled internally, but instead, it somehow became public (gee, I wonder why). JR reconciled the matter by offering Frank a contract that would give him more money up front, with the opportunity to leave via free agency if he had a monster season in the future. This contract was ironed out while KW was mid-air on a flight from Florida, and KW was quite livid to hear the news that JR and Thomas had agreed to a deal that would bring FT back in 2003.

JR is left in a rather awkward position since both KW and FT are "his boys" so to speak, so having them at odds is difficult to work around. Personally, I think KW is a decent GM, but a bit too egotistical and dominearing at times. He needs to get over his professional jealousy of FT, and realize that this is a team that can win with Thomas. His public hissy fits about Thomas not returning his off season phone calls or acting as a decoy when he is seriously injured are nothing but attempts at character assassination. If only KW had done his job as well as FT has done for most of his career, maybe we wouldn't consistently be the bridesmaid OF THE WORST DIVISION IN BASEBALL!!!!!

PatK
08-27-2004, 03:03 PM
That article just furthers my belief that sports journalists are either:

a) bitter individuals that lack the talent to have had an athletic career

b) individuals that desperately want to coach but lack the intelligence to do so.

That article was such a typical fluff piece that it should have been written under the pen name "Captian Obvious".

Dan H
08-27-2004, 03:08 PM
My problem with the piece is that there's no real depth to the piece or any insight/analysis. "Sox have had talent and haven't translated it into performance, blow them up". No duh. Typical Cubune fluff when it comes to the South Side. "Sox bad. Need change."

How about a little analysis before making moves, huh? WHY haven't things worked out? WHAT's missing? HOW do you restructure the team to maintain the good things that have been here and eliminate holes or add the missing pieces?

All the people complaining about KW not having a plan, and then coming around with the "trade 'em all, blow up the core - it doesn't work" need to recognize that they're not exactly helping things. You have some very good core offensive assets: Frank, Paulie, Carlos, ARow. Don't throw them away because "it hasn't worked", figure out what's missing (IMO a leadoff hitter) and add it to them.
Speaking for myself, I do not suggest blow the team up or trade everyone. But before change can be made, you first have to admit to yourself that real change has to be made. That won't happen if the Sox just excuse 2004 on injuries.

Yes, the team has some very good offensive assets. But for some reason (other some very obvious ones) the team just doesn't click. In the late '60's the Cubs had a great core of players. But after 1969 it was all over for them. By the time they began to change, the team was on a treadmill going nowhere. After 1972, the '70's were pathetic for them and they didn't win a division until 1984. I don't want that to happen to the Sox. So let's not kid ourselves. This team is not World Series caliber, and if the team can get something truly valuable for its "offensive assets," let's do it. Meanwhile 2000 is becoming a distant memory.

Flight #24
08-27-2004, 03:31 PM
Speaking for myself, I do not suggest blow the team up or trade everyone. But before change can be made, you first have to admit to yourself that real change has to be made. That won't happen if the Sox just excuse 2004 on injuries.

Yes, the team has some very good offensive assets. But for some reason (other some very obvious ones) the team just doesn't click. In the late '60's the Cubs had a great core of players. But after 1969 it was all over for them. By the time they began to change, the team was on a treadmill going nowhere. After 1972, the '70's were pathetic for them and they didn't win a division until 1984. I don't want that to happen to the Sox. So let's not kid ourselves. This team is not World Series caliber, and if the team can get something truly valuable for its "offensive assets," let's do it. Meanwhile 2000 is becoming a distant memory.
My problem is that you need a plan. Simply saying "it didn't work, so we need to do something different" is ludicrous - if you don't KNOW what didn't work and have a specific plan of WHAT to do differently, it's just throwing something up on the wall to see what sticks - that doesn't work in structuring an MLB team.

Now if you were to say "We have a ton of sluggers, but no guys to get on base, move runners along, etc" - that I'd agree with. So my plan would be to acquire some guys like that if possible without sacrificing the sluggers. It's not BECAUSE we have sluggers that it's not working, it's because we have sluggers but noone getting on ahead of them. Add a Johnny Damon-like player to this lineup (forgetting positions for a second), get Frank back, and I think you have a very different feel to the O. Damon-Rowand-Frank-Lee-Konerko-Everett-Valentin is a much more stable, consistent 1-7 than what we have now.

Jamieboy
08-27-2004, 03:34 PM
The idea that the core players of the team are responsible for the team not reaching the playoffs since 2000 is a JOKE. Come on. If the team did trade Carlos, Paulie, Frank, Maggs, , Garland, whoever else. What do you think would be said if we didn't get to the playoffs the following year? People would bash the team for making terrible off season moves. Ever one would be saying why did we trade the core of the team. Get off it people. How is anyone going to rip into Carlos and Konerko this year? They've carried the offense load since Frank and Maggs have been in and out of the lineup during the season. Carlos is having argueabley his best season in the bigs, hitting .303 with 24HRs, 83RBIs, with a .363OBP and a .525 slugging percentage. Konerko is hitting .280 and leads the team in HRs and RBIs. Now I know numbers aren't everything, but what other kind of players would you want besdies them? "Grinders", some guys who can do the little things? These guys are power hitters, RBI guys, their jobs are to get runs across the plate. If they don't move runners over or something like that, its sad, but get over it, it happens. The problem with the team isn't its core, but the guys who surrond them. Guys like Crede, Valentin, here and there Harris and Uribe, Neal Cotts, Mike Jackson, Politte at times, inconsistent Garland, and the 5 spot have killed the Sox. And yes, I havent' seen Ozzie Guillen make much a difference in this second half. Guillen's use of the bullpen and some of his rotation decisions just haven't made much sense. Dumping the core of the team is just nonsense, if not for our core players, this team would be in a sad sad state. The problem isn't the core, but the guys around them.

Foulke29
08-27-2004, 03:45 PM
Those Valentin for Garcia rumors may have been true, but it's hard to believe that's all Seattle wanted.
Don't forget just how bad Freddy G. was last year.

I'm ssang, and I'm still an IDIOT!
08-27-2004, 03:49 PM
Exactly. Now you're getting it. That's how KW supporters stand by him. Never mind the fact that KW brought in most of these guys. Funny how the Sox best hitters were here before KW got his claws into the team. PK, Lee, Thomas, Ordonez all hear before KW became GM.

My personal favorite is when people won't blame KW for not making many moves going into this season because he had no room in the budget. Well who signed most of these guys that brought the payroll up? Who gave Ordonez a contract that spread almost half of his $30 mill. of a 3 year contract? Who thought it was a good idea to overpay for PK? Who decided Koch was worth $6 mill this year and was accounted for in that total during the offseason.

But it's not KW's fault.


Bob
Bob,

You are a God in certain 3rd World Countries. I agree %100. And for the KW supporters out there you are wrong. It is a fact that Kenny is a bad GM. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. KW = Bad GM.

DickAllen72
08-27-2004, 04:41 PM
If we don't resign Ordonez and Valentin, and trade Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko, we could afford to sign Pavano, Radke, Koskie and Renteria, plus obtain some good relievers or a young bat or two in return for Paulie and Carlos.

The sum total of this team has been much less than it's parts. It is time to change.

Adding Pavano and Radke to the starting staff would make it easily the best in the division, if not all of baseball. Koskie would be a major upgrade at third, and he knows how to play baseball and has been on a winner. Ditto Renteria. We'd have speed, a great defensive infield and more contact hitting.

Flight #24
08-27-2004, 04:50 PM
If we don't resign Ordonez and Valentin, and trade Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko, we could afford to sign Pavano, Radke, Koskie and Renteria, plus obtain some good relievers or a young bat or two in return for Paulie and Carlos.

The sum total of this team has been much less than it's parts. It is time to change.

Adding Pavano and Radke to the starting staff would make it easily the best in the division, if not all of baseball. Koskie would be a major upgrade at third, and he knows how to play baseball and has been on a winner. Ditto Renteria. We'd have speed, a great defensive infield and more contact hitting.
Your proposed lineup of Renteria-Rowand-Frank-Everett-Koskie-????(LF)-????(1B)-Davis/Burke-Uribe/Harris would go down in history as one of the least potent for any major league team. Unless you're also going to be signing some pretty solid hitters in addition to the Renteria-Pavano-Radke trio (I think Koskie would come cheap).

Even with a great starting rotation, that's a losing team. You can't win if you don't score. A better team would be one that gets a solid vet #4 (Odalis, Kenny Rogers, etc) and adds a solid OBP leadoff guy but keeps the other hitters.

inta
08-27-2004, 11:58 PM
fantastic article...
i've been saying the same thing for months now.

Dan H
08-28-2004, 08:47 AM
My problem is that you need a plan. Simply saying "it didn't work, so we need to do something different" is ludicrous - if you don't KNOW what didn't work and have a specific plan of WHAT to do differently, it's just throwing something up on the wall to see what sticks - that doesn't work in structuring an MLB team.

Now if you were to say "We have a ton of sluggers, but no guys to get on base, move runners along, etc" - that I'd agree with. So my plan would be to acquire some guys like that if possible without sacrificing the sluggers. It's not BECAUSE we have sluggers that it's not working, it's because we have sluggers but noone getting on ahead of them. Add a Johnny Damon-like player to this lineup (forgetting positions for a second), get Frank back, and I think you have a very different feel to the O. Damon-Rowand-Frank-Lee-Konerko-Everett-Valentin is a much more stable, consistent 1-7 than what we have now.
I agree with you. A plan is what is needed. That is what the Sox haven't had. They patch holes as they go along and it hasn't worked. They started the season relying on Danny Wright and Billy Koch. Now Wright can't even throw the ball and they were in complete denial about Koch. And then they re-acquire Everett and Alomar? Does this sound like a plan to you?

The core players have to take some responsibility for the team again failing to go to the playoffs. Stats are nice, but where are the intangibles like leadership? I know that losing Frank and Ordonez was tough, but does that mean you tank the season?

It is not that I don't like some of the core players. I just want a combination of players that go out and win. And to change the team, you have to say good-bye to a few of these players to re-construct the team. This team just doesn't have it, and it is about time the front office and the fans face up to it. Like I said in my earlier post, 2000 is becoming a distant memory.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2004, 09:09 AM
Here's my plan: relentlessly replace or demote mediocre or underperforming ballplayers at every opportunity. Works like a charm. For example:

Jon Garland: not a reliable #3. Get two more pitchers and make him #5.
Willie Harris: not an everyday leadoff man. Get a platoon or acquire somebody else to leadoff.
Joe Crede: ongoing bust. Demote, trade or release him, but get another third basemen.
Esteban Loaiza: lost whatever he magically had for one season. Trade him for something of value. (Accomplished)

Did you see the NY Yankees sit on their hands after they realized how bad Loaiza truly was? No way! Loaiza got exactly 3 starts before they demoted him. Meanwhile the Sox haven't filled the #5 hole for going on 3 years now!

If you're serious about winning, you don't waste time with the sort of chronic roster problems the Sox always tolerate. We never had enough punch in the lineup back in the 50's and 60's, and we have more holes than Swiss cheese in our roster today, too. Nothing but 80+ years of excuses...

kitekrazy
08-28-2004, 12:03 PM
I get the impression that many people didn't really read the article with an open mind, thinking it's the Tribune Sox bashing.

I do think Manual was part of the blame. Not a lot of fundamental baseball. Konerko calling out Frank 2 years ago tells me the manager isn't running things.

"Whom should the Sox acquire when this massive housecleaning begins? The answer might not excite you. The Sox could use a few nobodies who care, people who know how to play the game right."

The nobodies are probably players not familiar to Sox fans. DO you think any team in basbeball would win a division with Crede and Jose in the lineup? There are some stars who do tank when they get a big contract.

"Let Ordonez go if he won't sign for what the Sox are offering. Use the money to get a few other players. Let Thomas go. See what you can get for Lee and Konerko."

I agree. Texas learned this after buying A-Rod. If some team is deep in pitching and they want to give some up for Lee and PK, go for it.

"Please don't misunderstand. These are good players. Most of them are good people. But something happens, some sort of chemical reaction, when you put them together."

Everyone can think of a team in any sport that looked good on paper but couldn't go anywhere. Looking at last year's WS on paper the Yankees should've swept the Marlins. On paper it should be the Cubs or Astros in the lead not the Cards. Look at the Dolphins who would lose it in the playoffs and never won a Superbowl with Dan Marino.
Outside of Rowand how many of you really think any of the players actually try to improve theirselves and work on their weaknesses. There are people with a lot of strengths but they do nothing to address their weakensses.

I'm ssang, and I'm still an IDIOT!
08-28-2004, 12:08 PM
Here's my plan: relentlessly replace or demote mediocre or underperforming ballplayers at every opportunity. Works like a charm. For example:

Jon Garland: not a reliable #3. Get two more pitchers and make him #5.
Willie Harris: not an everyday leadoff man. Get a platoon or acquire somebody else to leadoff.
Joe Crede: ongoing bust. Demote, trade or release him, but get another third basemen.
Esteban Loaiza: lost whatever he magically had for one season. Trade him for something of value. (Accomplished)

Did you see the NY Yankees sit on their hands after they realized how bad Loaiza truly was? No way! Loaiza got exactly 3 starts before they demoted him. Meanwhile the Sox haven't filled the #5 hole for going on 3 years now!

If you're serious about winning, you don't waste time with the sort of chronic roster problems the Sox always tolerate. We never had enough punch in the lineup back in the 50's and 60's, and we have more holes than Swiss cheese in our roster today, too. Nothing but 80+ years of excuses...
Amen, I agree with it all. This organization is ass-backwards in attempting to put a consistent winner on the field.

kitekrazy
08-28-2004, 02:36 PM
Reinsdorf doesn't want a winner, he'll settle for "competitive". I guess that's suppose to boost the attendance.

gosox41
08-28-2004, 05:01 PM
I get the impression that many people didn't really read the article with an open mind, thinking it's the Tribune Sox bashing.

I
"Whom should the Sox acquire when this massive housecleaning begins? The answer might not excite you. The Sox could use a few nobodies who care, people who know how to play the game right."

The nobodies are probably players not familiar to Sox fans. DO you think any team in basbeball would win a division with Crede and Jose in the lineup? There are some stars who do tank when they get a big contract.

"Let Ordonez go if he won't sign for what the Sox are offering. Use the money to get a few other players. Let Thomas go. See what you can get for Lee and Konerko."

I agree. Texas learned this after buying A-Rod. If some team is deep in pitching and they want to give some up for Lee and PK, go for it.

"Please don't misunderstand. These are good players. Most of them are good people. But something happens, some sort of chemical reaction, when you put them together."

Everyone can think of a team in any sport that looked good on paper but couldn't go anywhere. Looking at last year's WS on paper the Yankees should've swept the Marlins. On paper it should be the Cubs or Astros in the lead not the Cards. Look at the Dolphins who would lose it in the playoffs and never won a Superbowl with Dan Marino.
Outside of Rowand how many of you really think any of the players actually try to improve theirselves and work on their weaknesses. There are people with a lot of strengths but they do nothing to address their weakensses.







Here are my thoughts from the article and what you listed above.

1. They Sox have a bunch of nobodies who are on their team. Juan Uribe I'm sure wants to be a starter and is trying his best. Ross Gload wants to stick in the majors after being a career minor leaguer. Rowand is proving to be a good CF option. Willie Harris probably enjoys making major league money and wants to show he can stick around. Ben Davis has been a flop and this may be a last shot for him to show something so he has something to prove. Jamie Burke has been a career minor leaguer and is probably sick of riding minor league buses from town to town and sleeping wtih roaches.

THese are all nobodies who probably care as it effects their future making big bucks. They're just not very good nobodies.

2. Don't let Thomas go unless some team offers you a tremendously good trade. Besides sentimental reasons, how can a team let a guy who can hit 40+ HR's with a .420 OBP go? That would be stupid. Not beyond KW since he's tried it once. But any of the overrated clubhouse problems that Thomas may cause are more then made up for in his performance. And I don't believe Thomas is a cancer in the clubhouse.

3. I think at this level every big leaguer has strengths. It's just some aren't very good overall and will consistently not hit that curve ball or whatever. Get guys with proven track records of good performance and no more career minor leaguers. I don't care if their big names or not. Just get guys who can get the job done.


Bob

Flight #24
08-28-2004, 05:03 PM
I agree with you. A plan is what is needed. That is what the Sox haven't had. They patch holes as they go along and it hasn't worked. They started the season relying on Danny Wright and Billy Koch. Now Wright can't even throw the ball and they were in complete denial about Koch. And then they re-acquire Everett and Alomar? Does this sound like a plan to you?

The core players have to take some responsibility for the team again failing to go to the playoffs. Stats are nice, but where are the intangibles like leadership? I know that losing Frank and Ordonez was tough, but does that mean you tank the season?

It is not that I don't like some of the core players. I just want a combination of players that go out and win. And to change the team, you have to say good-bye to a few of these players to re-construct the team. This team just doesn't have it, and it is about time the front office and the fans face up to it. Like I said in my earlier post, 2000 is becoming a distant memory.
Reacquiring Everett & Alomar were 2 different pieces of the same plan: Trying to keep this thing afloat. There weren't many better pieces available to them to try and do so, so I'm not sure why that doesn't seem like a solid move. Robbie especially was brought here as a flier - if he could bring a spark and help get things going, great. But if not, it didn't cost anything. Again - all part of the PLAN to try and get this team more productive offensively through some of the fundamentals and intangibles that you mention. It didn't work, and I'm sure people would have liked bigger moves, but I don't think they were out there.

As for "re-constructing", my question to you is - HOW? What are you going to change? Without being able to answer that, you're just floundering around by dumping/trading guys.

Flight #24
08-28-2004, 05:05 PM
Here's my plan: relentlessly replace or demote mediocre or underperforming ballplayers at every opportunity. Works like a charm. For example:

Jon Garland: not a reliable #3. Get two more pitchers and make him #5.
Willie Harris: not an everyday leadoff man. Get a platoon or acquire somebody else to leadoff.
Joe Crede: ongoing bust. Demote, trade or release him, but get another third basemen.
Esteban Loaiza: lost whatever he magically had for one season. Trade him for something of value. (Accomplished)

Did you see the NY Yankees sit on their hands after they realized how bad Loaiza truly was? No way! Loaiza got exactly 3 starts before they demoted him. Meanwhile the Sox haven't filled the #5 hole for going on 3 years now!

If you're serious about winning, you don't waste time with the sort of chronic roster problems the Sox always tolerate. We never had enough punch in the lineup back in the 50's and 60's, and we have more holes than Swiss cheese in our roster today, too. Nothing but 80+ years of excuses...
Good ideas PHG, I agree 100% that's what's needed. Don't dump Koney/Lee/Valentin, upgrade at the real holes. Adding a bonafide leadoff guy and getting Frank back makes this a completely different offense.

One Q: Are you discounting Contreras? Or are you meaning to get 1 starter (pushing Garland to #5) and a reliever as your 2 pitchers?

balke
08-28-2004, 05:15 PM
THese are all nobodies who probably care as it effects their future making big bucks. They're just not very good nobodies.

Bob

How in god's name is Rowand a nobody? And what do we really know about gload? other than he's gotten better every year. Davis is 27, having a great year with the Sox (could be due to sox hitting coach?). Burke might be a nobody, but he's a decent nobody. Catchers are a weird position, very few seem to be consistant studs. yeah, wilie is a nobody. You can't lump all those guys together.

I agree with you about thomas, but I got a sick feeling coming off of Kenny, the way he talks about Maggs. He refers to injuries, and how he's not completely ready to pay for that risk with a player like that. Could bleed over to Thomas as well. I think I speak for 90% of sox fans when I say we want him back til #500 (and beyond).

owensmouth
08-28-2004, 05:37 PM
Okay. Ordonez is gone. Walkoff. So is Vanentin. Trade PK and Carlos and get some good minor league pitchers, guys with a real upside.

Infield of Gload, Willie, Valdez and Uribe. Outfield of Timo, Rowand and Borchard.

Everett as DH.

Davis is catcher.

Cut the budget to 39 million. JR can pocket the difference

Lip Man 1
08-28-2004, 09:10 PM
Given the odds of a starting staff going through a season without injuries, slumps or flat out having a bad year you better have six guys ready to go.

Therefore the Sox have to add two starting pitchers not one...the odd man out becomes the long man in relief.

Sure as shootin' if the Sox don't do this they'll lose one or two pitchers to injuries next season.

Lip

balke
08-29-2004, 12:52 AM
Given the odds of a starting staff going through a season without injuries, slumps or flat out having a bad year you better have six guys ready to go.

Therefore the Sox have to add two starting pitchers not one...the odd man out becomes the long man in relief.

Sure as shootin' if the Sox don't do this they'll lose one or two pitchers to injuries next season.

Lip
I'll say this at the threat of being stabbed, but that's why I wouldn't mind hangin on to Schoney. He fought well through half a season. If KW, I sign a good starter, and let shoney know he's going to be the guy when something happens, and tell him maybe he can pop back in the order at the break if things don't go according to plan.

I think Cotts pulls it around for Long relief next season, and if we had both Cotts and Shoney in the pen, I'd feel safe about backup for 5 good starters. One free agent Closer would make that Pen look pretty good. Marte would pitch his one inning, hopefully better than this year, SHingo would fit in wherever we needed him. Jackson's gone, maybe let go of Politte, and keep Adkins.

eh?

Dan H
08-29-2004, 10:04 AM
Reacquiring Everett & Alomar were 2 different pieces of the same plan: Trying to keep this thing afloat. There weren't many better pieces available to them to try and do so, so I'm not sure why that doesn't seem like a solid move. Robbie especially was brought here as a flier - if he could bring a spark and help get things going, great. But if not, it didn't cost anything. Again - all part of the PLAN to try and get this team more productive offensively through some of the fundamentals and intangibles that you mention. It didn't work, and I'm sure people would have liked bigger moves, but I don't think they were out there.

As for "re-constructing", my question to you is - HOW? What are you going to change? Without being able to answer that, you're just floundering around by dumping/trading guys.
What am I going to change? Just about everything, including this trying to win with offense and weakness up the middle.

The truth is that the Sox have many holes and they have to do plenty to turn this team around. They have to make up their minds about giving Willie Harris a chance, need a real shortstop and have to address their problems at catching.

Despite the fact that US Cellular is a homer haven, it is about time the Sox become a better defensive club. They need more pitching both in the starting and relieving roles.

And to those who are still in love with home runs, Ordonez will probably not return and Frank Thomas will be recovering from another injury and will be another year closer to 40.

Of course, this all depends on the organization's committment to winning. No committment, no real change.