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View Full Version : OZZIE' fault???


misty60481
08-26-2004, 08:52 AM
I have never seen a team that has looked as dead as we have the last half of this year. It looks like all everybody wants is to get the game ( or season ) over. I thought Oz was going to bring some spark into this mess, Crede looks like he is lost half the time, Carlos is always looking in the stands grinning, poor Burke his head will be like a piece of putty before season is done. I know our hopes are finished this year but couldnt we at least make a little exitement? If it wasnt for Rowand we would possibly have the most boring, lifeless team in baseball. I think bringing in an experienced manager and letting Ozzie be bench coach for a year ot 2 would help, he is honestly way over his head and getting covered up more each day. I know losing Maggs & Hurt cannot be overcome but at least we should put a better show than we have, KW & JR now see when we play good the fans will come to the Cell we already proved that much, close to 2 mil, that is saying something for us Sox fans. All they do is talk---lets have some action---bring up some of the kids from Char. if the ones here dont want to play..

soxtalker
08-26-2004, 09:36 AM
I have never seen a team that has looked as dead as we have the last half of this year. It looks like all everybody wants is to get the game ( or season ) over. I thought Oz was going to bring some spark into this mess, Crede looks like he is lost half the time, Carlos is always looking in the stands grinning, poor Burke his head will be like a piece of putty before season is done. I know our hopes are finished this year but couldnt we at least make a little exitement? If it wasnt for Rowand we would possibly have the most boring, lifeless team in baseball. I think bringing in an experienced manager and letting Ozzie be bench coach for a year ot 2 would help, he is honestly way over his head and getting covered up more each day. I know losing Maggs & Hurt cannot be overcome but at least we should put a better show than we have, KW & JR now see when we play good the fans will come to the Cell we already proved that much, close to 2 mil, that is saying something for us Sox fans. All they do is talk---lets have some action---bring up some of the kids from Char. if the ones here dont want to play..
I think that Ozzie has made a number of mistakes this year, but it is asking a lot for him to get the players up lately. When we fell 5 games back a few weeks ago, many on this board figured it was over. Making up that ground with Frank and Maggs would have even been tough. The players, coaches, and managers have to fight against such thinking, and they certainly can't say it. And to their credit, they've made a few (mostly unsuccessful) comebacks in the past couple of weeks. But even this week, we've started hearing comments from the staff that indicate that they know it is over. It has to be miserable playing out the string. I just hope that KW can trade one or two of the guys (like Valentin) to a contender before the 31st.

As far as call ups, wait until next week.

misty60481
08-26-2004, 10:01 AM
I know we cant reasonably call up a lot of players now but when Sept. call up comes unless we are playing a team that really needs a win these boys mainly play against a lot of the players they played against all year. I wish there was a way they could get a taste of ML playing when it mattered not just a trial period

JB98
08-26-2004, 12:49 PM
I don't think we have much at AAA to call up. Maybe Dransfeldt will be back, plus a couple of extra arms for the bullpen. Maybe they'll reward Nelson with a call-up. You're not going to see any hot prospects; let's put it that way.

balke
08-28-2004, 04:59 PM
I've waited the majority of the season to make a solid opinion of Ozzie. Remembering the Frank controversy in pre-season, watching many games of no retaliation from high inside pitches, no retaliation for the HUNTER INCIDENT, and watching the lineup change more times than it did even under Manuel.... THEN watching Ozzie open his stupid trap about the Umpire to get 2 more games suspension for himself...

I'm starting to rethink the Garland Quotes. Maybe he just got upset because Ozzie has no right to be calling anyone out right now. Garland has a pretty decent ERA this season, and noone likes to be dogged on by his own manager in the press. granted, Garland shouldn't have mentioned the errors in that game, even though they had to be on his mind.

It never seemed like Frank and Oz got along. I never once saw those two saying a word to one another on the bench. I think some players love the guy, and some don't. And I think Ozzie has no right to be calling out players with the way he's managed. He's got a lot of work to do with his managing skills, and should be more conscious of the team when he's speaking to the press. I would hate to lose good cheap talent on this team simply because Ozzie can't learn to shut his trap.

That being said, Ozzie should probably try his hardest to be manager of the year next year, or the sox fans as a whole might turn on him.

Lem_Siddons
08-28-2004, 05:13 PM
Another season flushed away before September. Oz must be held accountable, like the rest of the organization. After a couple bone headed mistakes early, I think he did about as well as could be expected for a rookie Manager.

Thinking about a few key decisions involving Billy Botch, pitch hitting, he probably cost us 4 or 5 games, let's give him a couple on the plus column and he's -2 or -3 on the season. I wouldn't say he cost us a playoff birth.

At any rate we're stuck with him for a couple more seasons. I do not see JR or KW losing confidence in fact didn't KW say samething two weeks ago about small ball and getting a couple guys that could help that along?

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-28-2004, 05:14 PM
Another season flushed away before September. Oz must be held accountable, like the rest of the organization. After a couple bone headed mistakes early, I think he did about as well as could be expected for a rookie Manager.

Thinking about a few key decisions involving Billy Botch, pitch hitting, he probably cost us 4 or 5 games, let's give him a couple on the plus column and he's -2 or -3 on the season. I wouldn't say he cost us a playoff birth.

At any rate we're stuck with him for a couple more seasons. I do not see JR or KW losing confidence in fact didn't KW say samething two weeks ago about small ball and getting a couple guys that could help that along?

KW shares some fault too. Dont get me wrong, its ozzie's fault too, but besides the Elo/Contreas trade KW's made some preety dumb trades this season.

balke
08-28-2004, 05:22 PM
KW shares some fault too. Dont get me wrong, its ozzie's fault too, but besides the Elo/Contreas trade KW's made some preety dumb trades this season.

That can be debated, heh. :D:

The "great" debate (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39346)

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-28-2004, 06:24 PM
That can be debated, heh. :D:

The "great" debate (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39346)

i didnt say we should LOSE him i said hes made some stupid decisons

Dub25
08-28-2004, 06:37 PM
[QUOTE=balke]I've waited the majority of the season to make a solid opinion of Ozzie. Remembering the Frank controversy in pre-season, watching many games of no retaliation from high inside pitches, no retaliation for the HUNTER INCIDENT

6 games remain with the Twins. If something is not done then, I'll be pissed. Those games won't mean anything unless they heat up. Perfect time to say screw it. Hit'em with a pitch and take whatever pentality from Bob Watson.

misty60481
08-28-2004, 08:13 PM
I agree with DUB25 what have we got to lose, much as I hate them the Scrubs are willing to fight and you know there pitchers will retaliate I would like us to finish the season at least letting the Twins know they cant intimidate us, if that doesnt happen then I lost respect for Ozzie

DaveIsHere
08-28-2004, 08:19 PM
Come on guys, this is stupid. We all new that there would be growing pains with Ozzie, he is a 1st year manager, I give him the benefit of the doubt, I like a lot of what he has done and I disagree with some. This will take time, he has learned a lot this season, and it is not his fault that he is without Frank and Maggs!!!

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-28-2004, 08:33 PM
Come on guys, this is stupid. We all new that there would be growing pains with Ozzie, he is a 1st year manager, I give him the benefit of the doubt, I like a lot of what he has done and I disagree with some. This will take time, he has learned a lot this season, and it is not his fault that he is without Frank and Maggs!!!
agree with you man

balke
08-28-2004, 08:47 PM
Me too. I'll give him another season. We're stuck with him anyhow, with the Garcia situation. He'd probably start getting wild if we fired Ozzie.


I won't blame the season on the guy in anyway. I lay it on injury personally, the numbers don't lie about that. But I'm not happy with Ozzie's Managerial skills so far. I'm definitely hoping for some kind of retaliation in the Twinkie series, even though it'll seem too little too late/ in poor taste. We've been punks of the Central all season, we need to grow a pair.

Lip Man 1
08-28-2004, 09:00 PM
Gang:

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Sox...

dead from the neck up starting with opening day 2001...
sleepwalking through the entire 2002 season...
looking like they didn't even care with the collapse in September 2003...

I don't think Ozzie was the manager then was he?

Like Rick Morrissey said this collection of talent has no chemistry and I'd go a step further and say they are dumb baseball players when it comes to the game. That's why they can't execute fundamentals, that's why they don't produce in the clutch and that's why they don't seem to even understand the situations and responsibilities they are involved in.

Lip

nccwsfan
08-28-2004, 09:11 PM
Until this organization brings in players that fit Ozzie's style of managing it's way too early to discuss whether or not he'll succeed here. He's made some good decisions and some bad decisions this season- not everyone is Casey Stengel after 125 games.

Give him the benefit of the doubt, let him learn from his mistakes, and have him work CLOSELY with KW during the offseason to bring in the right mix of players. After 3 seasons with Ozzie at the helm we should have a very good idea as to whether this will succeed or not.

johnny bench
08-28-2004, 10:12 PM
Until this organization brings in players that fit Ozzie's style of managing it's way too early to discuss whether or not he'll succeed here. He's made some good decisions and some bad decisions this season- not everyone is Casey Stengel after 125 games.

Give him the benefit of the doubt, let him learn from his mistakes, and have him work CLOSELY with KW during the offseason to bring in the right mix of players. After 3 seasons with Ozzie at the helm we should have a very good idea as to whether this will succeed or not.What has Ozzie done to merit his returning next year? Who has he motivated to play better than he would have for another manager? Has he shown particular skills in managing the pitching staff?

I do agree with you that Ozzie must learn from his mistakes. We disagree because I think that Ozzie needs to ride a bus in the minor leagues for 5 years so he can learn how to manage people and manage a baseball game AND to decide if he ever wants to grow up and make a commitment to being a manager and therefore accept responsibility for the performance of what is supposed to be HIS TEAM. Today's Ozzie attitude is that the White Sox are someone else's team.

Tragg
08-28-2004, 10:23 PM
Until this organization brings in players that fit Ozzie's style of managing it's way too early to discuss whether or not he'll succeed here. He's made some good decisions and some bad decisions this season- not everyone is Casey Stengel after 125 games.

Give him the benefit of the doubt, let him learn from his mistakes, and have him work CLOSELY with KW during the offseason to bring in the right mix of players. After 3 seasons with Ozzie at the helm we should have a very good idea as to whether this will succeed or not.Are you suggesting that we build a team to suit a manager???
And Ozzie's "style" at least as a hitter was to swing at everything, no power, no walks- place that style plus a bunch of silly bunts on a ML team, and we won't play anywhere close to .500 ball.

nccwsfan
08-28-2004, 10:32 PM
What has Ozzie done to merit his returning next year? Who has he motivated to play better than he would have for another manager? Has he shown particular skills in managing the pitching staff?
Since 2001 everyone was riding Manuel for not motivating the team. This season some are riding Ozzie for not motivating the team. Maybe it's just me, but when do we start making the players accountable for their attitude/play and say that they don't work well as a team? I love this team as much as the next fan, but reality is that we're not in the same class as Minnesota, much less Boston/NY Yankees. Time to bring in new horses.

To be fair, he hasn't been great with managing the pitching staff and could use some experience on this end.

I do agree with you that Ozzie must learn from his mistakes. We disagree because I think that Ozzie needs to ride a bus in the minor leagues for 5 years so he can learn how to manage people and manage a baseball game AND to decide if he ever wants to grow up and make a commitment to being a manager and therefore accept responsibility for the performance of what is supposed to be HIS TEAM. Today's Ozzie attitude is that the White Sox are someone else's team.
Again, if people think that Ozzie is the reason that we're 2 games under .500 they're missing the point. This is not a fundamentally sound team and needs to make changes to fix the ship. Put the pressure on KW to get the right players on the squad, but give Oz a chance to work his system with his players. Anything less isn't giving him a fair shake.

TornLabrum
08-28-2004, 10:33 PM
Are you suggesting that we build a team to suit a manager???
And Ozzie's "style" at least as a hitter was to swing at everything, no power, no walks- place that style plus a bunch of silly bunts on a ML team, and we won't play anywhere close to .500 ball.
I would suggest that any team should be built to suit the manager because the manager should be hired because he and the front office agree on a certain philosophy.

I would also suggest that Ozzie does not want a team of Ozzie Guillens. I would suggest that he wants a well balanced team that has players that can get on base so that the sluggers might hit three-run homers instead of the solo shots we've grown to know and hate.

If you think Ozzie wants a team full of bunters, then you haven't been paying attention.

nccwsfan
08-28-2004, 10:36 PM
Are you suggesting that we build a team to suit a manager???
And Ozzie's "style" at least as a hitter was to swing at everything, no power, no walks- place that style plus a bunch of silly bunts on a ML team, and we won't play anywhere close to .500 ball.Name one player on this team who has proven that they can bunt at the major league level?
Name the guys who can hit to the opposite field and/or move runners from 1st to 3rd?
Who is our proven contact hitter?

Having a squad of free swingers can be fun, but as the last 5 weeks have shown it can also be painful to watch. I don't think smallball is the right approach, rather a mix of power, contact hitting, smart baserunning, and yes even the occassional bunt or two.

Tragg
08-28-2004, 11:12 PM
I would suggest that any team should be built to suit the manager because the manager should be hired because he and the front office agree on a certain philosophy.

I would also suggest that Ozzie does not want a team of Ozzie Guillens. I would suggest that he wants a well balanced team that has players that can get on base so that the sluggers might hit three-run homers instead of the solo shots we've grown to know and hate.

If you think Ozzie wants a team full of bunters, then you haven't been paying attention.Tell me what I missed- name ONE player acquired by Kenny Williams that demonstrates that he places a high importance on getting on base. (spare me the alomar or everett's; he chose to sign neither; give me some players he put on this team at the beginning of the season that demonstrate the importance he places on OBP). He wanted to use the diminished skills clause on Frank- that would be the Frank who has been the best combo of OBP and power in the AL for the last 14 years. He couldn't give away our 2nd to best OBP man, Durham, fast enough. And we've never had a real lead-off hitter (obp almost by definition) during his tenure.

In theory, I won't argue- the organization should have a philosophy and field a team to meet that philosophy. Williams has been here nearly 4 seasons- if that's his philosophy, what's he been waiting on?

Tragg
08-28-2004, 11:17 PM
Name one player on this team who has proven that they can bunt at the major league level?
Name the guys who can hit to the opposite field and/or move runners from 1st to 3rd?
Who is our proven contact hitter?

Having a squad of free swingers can be fun, but as the last 5 weeks have shown it can also be painful to watch. I don't think smallball is the right approach, rather a mix of power, contact hitting, smart baserunning, and yes even the occassional bunt or two.
I agree with you - we don't have hitters as you describe.
It wasn't me who signed Valentin to $5 mill. or actually traded for Royce Clayton. Is this a sudden revelation by Kenny? Has he changed his philosophy because Ozzie says so (which would also be absurd).


I don't mean to beat on him- he's far from the worst GM in the league

TornLabrum
08-28-2004, 11:17 PM
Tell me what I missed- name ONE player acquired by Kenny Williams that demonstrates that he places a high importance on getting on base. (spare me the alomar or everett's; he chose to sign neither). He wanted to use the diminished skills clause on Frank- that would be the Frank who has been the best combo of OBP and power in the AL for the last 14 years.

In theory, I won't argue- the organization should have a philosophy and field a team to meet that philosophy. Williams has been here nearly 4 seasons- if that's his philosophy, what's he been waiting on?
Except this thread is about Ozzie. He's only been here one year. Maybe his philosophy is different from Manuel's...and perhaps Schueler and/or Williams disregarded Manuel's philosophy...or perhaps there was never a plan and Ozzie is the first person in management since Larry Himes and Jeff Torborg to have one.

Tragg
08-28-2004, 11:26 PM
Except this thread is about Ozzie. He's only been here one year. Maybe his philosophy is different from Manuel's...and perhaps Schueler and/or Williams disregarded Manuel's philosophy...or perhaps there was never a plan and Ozzie is the first person in management since Larry Himes and Jeff Torborg to have one.I'll say this- if that's the philosophy they want, they should have enough financial leverage and trade bait this year to get it.

balke
08-29-2004, 01:21 AM
Tell me what I missed- name ONE player acquired by Kenny Williams that demonstrates that he places a high importance on getting on base. (spare me the alomar or everett's; he chose to sign neither; give me some players he put on this team at the beginning of the season that demonstrate the importance he places on OBP). He wanted to use the diminished skills clause on Frank- that would be the Frank who has been the best combo of OBP and power in the AL for the last 14 years. He couldn't give away our 2nd to best OBP man, Durham, fast enough. And we've never had a real lead-off hitter (obp almost by definition) during his tenure.

In theory, I won't argue- the organization should have a philosophy and field a team to meet that philosophy. Williams has been here nearly 4 seasons- if that's his philosophy, what's he been waiting on?`


just 1 guy put on the field at the start of the season?: Aaron Rowand.

Article on Rowands Power on MLB.com: http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NAS...s_cws&fext=.jsp (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040826&content_id=839151&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)



"We need a guy who gets on base. I don't want to be one-dimensional. I want to hit for a high average, drive in runs and score a lot of runs. Run production is the biggest thing because that's how you win games."

Mission accomplished for Rowand through 124 games. His .316 average ranked him 10th in the American League entering Thursday's series opener in Cleveland and his 14 stolen bases lead the White Sox. He has been one of the few consistent players during a rough, 9-14 August for the South Siders. His 22 runs scored ties the American League-best and his eight home runs leaves him tied for second.

There are no tricks to hitting home runs, at least none found by Rowand. It's a function of following his everyday offensive approach and taking advantage of pitchers' mistakes. In the ninth inning of Wednesday's 5-4 loss at Detroit, Rowand launched a changeup from Ugueth Urbina for a three-run shot that brought the team into late contention. The Detroit closer retired Rowand during a previous at-bat with that same pitch, but this offering was expected and up in the zone.



He walked twice tonight Btw. People say he never walks... he only had one at-bat. scored a run.

nccwsfan
08-29-2004, 09:23 AM
I agree with you - we don't have hitters as you describe.
It wasn't me who signed Valentin to $5 mill. or actually traded for Royce Clayton. Is this a sudden revelation by Kenny? Has he changed his philosophy because Ozzie says so (which would also be absurd).


I don't mean to beat on him- he's far from the worst GM in the league

Agreed. KW is now the guy who should be held accountable for bringing in the players that fit the system. For the KW bashers out there, this will once and for all show what he is capable of doing as a GM.

My original point was this- one year is hardly a true test as to whether or not Ozzie can manage the White Sox to success, especially with the current setup as it is.