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nordhagen
08-25-2004, 11:38 PM
All I keep thinking of is after the three-game playoff sweep by Seattle how the future was ours and that was only a beginning of bigger and better things ahead. Now we're all sitting here wondering where the hell this franchise is going.
These last four years have clearly been the most maddening as a Sox fan since the mid-70s. In the late 70s, 80s and to some degree the late 90s, they were just bad teams that everyone knew were bad. There were no players and no reasons to get hacked off.
But this "era" has been something else. Strange injuries, underachievement and now wondering what's going to happen next while the supposed chosen ones across town - their fortune extends even to having concrete fall and not land on anyone's head - emerge from their joker status.
Watching this game tonight was typical. Crede missed the tag? Eight hits and 1 run through 8 innings? Naturally a too-little, too-late 3-run homer by one of the few guys on this team who seems to know what they're doing in Rowand but only after Mike Jackson manages to it muck it up again.
Look at this team out there and ask - where are they going? We've got too many guys that people hope can play someday or who once could play but can't anymore? They need to bring in people who can play now.
Our supposed prospects are complete frauds. Borchard is a joke. Do we have a pitcher anywhere in the system who can get anyone out. Do we have anyone who can run the bases. I'll no longer believe it until I see it.
Injuries aside, this team being 2 games under .500 in this division is ridiculous. We can't even beat the Tigers (who are better but not that good). And like it or not, the Twins have been flat-out better. I don't want to hear anyone next spring in this camp say they're better than the Twins. Just talk about playing better baseball and leave it at that.
Something is fundamentally wrong with this team but I'm not sure what needs to be done or who needs to be cleaned out. But somewhere I'm guessing Jerry Manuel - and I was in no way a big fan - is smiling a bit and saying, "Oh, so I was the whole problem."
I just hope we're not in for darker days ahead.

Brian26
08-25-2004, 11:44 PM
The failed Royce Clayton experiment. The failed Todd Ritchie experience. Shouldergate with Sirotka. The David Wells bust. Frank injuries in 2k1 and 2k4. Koch bust in 2k3. Canseco's surprising contribution to the team. Clee's growth, decline and growth. PK's year long slump from mid 2002 to mid 2003. Crede's stunted growth. It's been an amazing 4 years. The potential has been there to run off 5 straight division titles, but I guess games aren't played on paper.

nordhagen
08-25-2004, 11:49 PM
Especially in this division, which now is starting to get better. Even though Cleveland's collapsed, look at the young hitters they've got. Look at some of the hitters the Tigers have. And the Twins can get rid of Mientkiewicz and plug in Morneau and we try to replace Maggs with Joe "I always have this dorky look on my face and certainly don't throw like a college QB" Borchard. And you're right, it seems like every big trade we make turns to crap. I don't fault Kenny for going for it, either, but he gambled and crapped out. And now it's just a bunch of crap.

34 Inch Stick
08-26-2004, 07:43 AM
I agree with you for the most part, but this Manuel adulation must stop. Just because the team continued to play badly after he left does not mean that he was good. Some of the most frustrating years as a Sox fan occured with Manuel at the helm. Unfortunately we bargain basemented with a replacement and got a manager with little coaching experience and 0 managing experience.

SOXSINCE'70
08-26-2004, 08:09 AM
Frustrating is the cleanest word I can think of to describe the 2001-2004 seasons.As a weekend season ticket holder,I don't know how i'm going to get through 6 games in Sept.One voice says "you paid for the games,might as well go tailgate and see old friends".The other voice says "who cares,the season is over". To quote Jim Morrison in "Roadhouse Blues",

"The future's uncertain and the end is always near".
At least if you're a Sox fan.:angry: :angry: :angry:

ChiSoxBobette
08-26-2004, 08:21 AM
All I keep thinking of is after the three-game playoff sweep by Seattle how the future was ours and that was only a beginning of bigger and better things ahead. Now we're all sitting here wondering where the hell this franchise is going.
These last four years have clearly been the most maddening as a Sox fan since the mid-70s. In the late 70s, 80s and to some degree the late 90s, they were just bad teams that everyone knew were bad. There were no players and no reasons to get hacked off.
But this "era" has been something else. Strange injuries, underachievement and now wondering what's going to happen next while the supposed chosen ones across town - their fortune extends even to having concrete fall and not land on anyone's head - emerge from their joker status.
Watching this game tonight was typical. Crede missed the tag? Eight hits and 1 run through 8 innings? Naturally a too-little, too-late 3-run homer by one of the few guys on this team who seems to know what they're doing in Rowand but only after Mike Jackson manages to it muck it up again.
Look at this team out there and ask - where are they going? We've got too many guys that people hope can play someday or who once could play but can't anymore? They need to bring in people who can play now.
Our supposed prospects are complete frauds. Borchard is a joke. Do we have a pitcher anywhere in the system who can get anyone out. Do we have anyone who can run the bases. I'll no longer believe it until I see it.
Injuries aside, this team being 2 games under .500 in this division is ridiculous. We can't even beat the Tigers (who are better but not that good). And like it or not, the Twins have been flat-out better. I don't want to hear anyone next spring in this camp say they're better than the Twins. Just talk about playing better baseball and leave it at that.
Something is fundamentally wrong with this team but I'm not sure what needs to be done or who needs to be cleaned out. But somewhere I'm guessing Jerry Manuel - and I was in no way a big fan - is smiling a bit and saying, "Oh, so I was the whole problem."
I just hope we're not in for darker days ahead.
Well like I said I would once hope that JR would end a dismal season such as this go into the off season with more than the plan we've had the last 3 years, which is to go out in the off season and get 2nd line FA's and then if the White Sox appear to be competetive go out and rent a once good major league player, as was the case last year with Robby Alomar & Carl Everett (by the way JR if we're in any sort of contention next year , which is far fetched, Please don't bring Alomar and Everett back its getting kinda stupid now).JR at the end of this season can we target a couple of top line FA's to start the season perferably a ss who consistently gets on base and is a threat to steal a few bases, another top of the line starting pitcher would be nice & some good bullpen arms. Oh yeah how about getting some people for our minor league clubs that know how to evaluate talent, I'm tired of this crap about getting some guy out of college who's a great athelete I want a great baseball player whethers its pitching or a positional player ( all you have to do is look at Joe Borchard to see the failure in our minor league system). If you're not going to spend the money on FA's then start re-building our farm system in the way the twins have done or even the indians but for gods sake have a plan other than this crap we as White Sox fans have put up with. I could live with a couple of more years of 3rd/4th place if I knew we were developing some top of the line players in our minor league system but every baseball publication that covers minor league ball puts us in the bottom of the talent pool.

cubhater
08-26-2004, 09:20 AM
One voice says "you paid for the games,might as well go tailgate and see old friends".The other voice says "who cares,the season is over". To quote Jim Morrison in "Roadhouse Blues",

"The future's uncertain and the end is always near".
At least if you're a Sox fan.:angry: :angry: :angry:
Same attitude here. I can care less about attending any other games this year with the exception of the final game from my Starting Nine package.:(:

gosox41
08-26-2004, 09:28 AM
I agree with you for the most part, but this Manuel adulation must stop. Just because the team continued to play badly after he left does not mean that he was good. Some of the most frustrating years as a Sox fan occured with Manuel at the helm. Unfortunately we bargain basemented with a replacement and got a manager with little coaching experience and 0 managing experience.

I couldn't stand Manuel, but really the only difference between Guillen and Manuel is the attitude. It's a big thing. But both tinker way too much.


Bob

fledgedrallycap
08-26-2004, 10:24 AM
I couldn't stand Manuel, but really the only difference between Guillen and Manuel is the attitude. It's a big thing. But both tinker way too much.
BobI wouldn't label Ozzie a tinkerer quite yet; has he juggled lineups? Yes, but out of necessity due to injury.

Manual had the dopiest substitution habits I have ever seen, with him throwing out a AAA squad every Sunday giving all his studs a day off at the same time.

Ozzie believes in getting guys playing time, but he does it in rotations or by riding the hot bat; which is the way it is suppose to be.

kittle42
08-26-2004, 10:36 AM
line-up's?
:dtroll:

PatK
08-26-2004, 10:48 AM
I gotta question why Ozzie was hired in the first place, seeing how he wanted to play the type of baseball that this team is least suited to play.

Hangar18
08-26-2004, 10:58 AM
The failed Royce Clayton experiment. The failed Todd Ritchie experience. Shouldergate with Sirotka. The David Wells bust. Frank injuries in 2k1 and 2k4. Koch bust in 2k3. Canseco's surprising contribution to the team. Clee's growth, decline and growth. PK's year long slump from mid 2002 to mid 2003. Crede's stunted growth. It's been an amazing 4 years. The potential has been there to run off 5 straight division titles, but I guess games aren't played on paper.
Whats most GLARING in the last 4 years, was what they DID or should I say DIDNT DO in the Offseasons. They Let Holes open up, REFUSED to fill holes, address weaknesses and relied on Cheaper Players, Unready Minor-Leaguers, and hoped for some GOOD LUCK. Well, as if 20 something years werent enough to teach them, everything went bad. the one thing you can see
that correlates everything was the SOX INSISTENCE ON CUTTING CORNERS.
Koch instead of Foulke will be the Great Testament to this for years to come

Hangar18
08-26-2004, 10:59 AM
This Organization makes me SICK :angry:

kittle42
08-26-2004, 11:03 AM
This Organization makes me SICK :angry:
You're right, and it has been made even worse with the northsiders deciding to finally act like a big-market team. JR - this is Chicago - act like it or get the hell out.

chuckn98229
08-26-2004, 11:06 AM
Hey, it's been a frustrating 40 YEARS - with only a couple of glimmers of hope that were quickly dashed in the first round of the playoffs. A new owner who is committed to winning is desperately needed.

Hangar18
08-26-2004, 11:26 AM
Hey, it's been a frustrating 40 YEARS - with only a couple of glimmers of hope that were quickly dashed in the first round of the playoffs. A new owner who is committed to winning is desperately needed.
Jerry Reinsdorf and his "Radical" new approach to running a baseball team ("Cutting Corners and Winning ....Big" - Jerrys New Book) DOESNT WORK.
At what point will he realize this? I guess he figured in the offseason that
the 20th time is the Charm huh? He MUST GO. JERRY REINSDORF MUST GO, Step Down, Quit, Resign something. We will NEVER win with him here.
Weve wasted Core teams year after year because we wouldnt pay to fill holes, or let key players leave. Most times, we did BOTH, Refuse to Pay to fill Holes & Let key players leave (this year for example). Jerry Must Go.
He really must go. I hate this organization

WinTwins
08-26-2004, 12:25 PM
He MUST GO. JERRY REINSDORF MUST GO, Step Down, Quit, Resign something. We will NEVER win with him here.

This is a boring refrain every time a team doesn't win. It almost doesn't matter which team or city. Reinsdorf isn't the problem--he's allocated approximately the same (or sometimes more) in payroll as the rest of the division has in recent years. Will the team suddenly improve with another owner giving KW $55-60M per year? No. KW has to make do with the restraints placed upon him, just like every other non-Yankees/Red Sox team. Smarter trades and savvy free agents will turn around the team MUCH faster than grabbing flavor-of-the-day free agents like Beltre. Build up the farm--don't tear it down.

Reinsdorf surely isn't the greatest owner, but to pin the entire lack of success on him misses the mark.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-26-2004, 12:58 PM
....
Reinsdorf surely isn't the greatest owner, but to pin the entire lack of success on him misses the mark.
I agree it isn't right to pin all the lack of success on Reinsdorf, but certainly he bears more of the blame than any other single person. This is his outfit.

At some point he needs to answer for 24 straight years of futility.
At some point he needs to answer for playing in the #3 market but finishing behind small market teams like Oakland, Kansas City, and Minnesota.
At some point he needs to answer for the P.R. gaffes that routinely drop straight out of his mouth and clearly have negatively-affected the team's fan support.
Meaningful revenue-sharing has not been implemented by MLB. So what possible excuse can anyone make for Jerry Reinsdorf's plaintive whines? If you believe (as JR believes) playing in a big market without revenue sharing leaves JR a day late and a donut short year-after-year, what makes anyone think moving to a smaller market will fix Jerry's problems?

Try and answer that question. You can't... not without making yourself into a fool.

Jerry Reinsdorf is full of ****. Don't blame us for calling him on it.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 01:04 PM
Reinsdorf surely isn't the greatest owner, but to pin the entire lack of success on him misses the mark.

Agreed 100%. And to think this level of intelligence actually comes from a poster with the name "WinTwins".

The easy way out is to blame JR.

The intelligent, unbiased approach would recognize the acquisitions this team has made and note the talent that has been assembled. On paper, this team has been ready to go deep into the playoffs for 5 years.

Unfortunately, crap happens. Reinsdorf can't control having his two most prolific offensive threats go down for over half the season. Asking for those guys to be replaced in the lineup is next to impossible.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 01:07 PM
I agree it isn't right to pin all the lack of success on Reinsdorf, but certainly he bears more of the blame than any other single person. This is his outfit.
[list]
At some point he needs to answer for 24 straight years of futility.
At some point he needs to answer for playing in the #3 market but finishing behind small market teams like Oakland, Kansas City, and Minnesota.


The Sox have had a pretty good team for most of those years. Unfortunately, they don't have a flag to show for it. From '90 to '97, I think they had the 2nd best record in baseball. They had one of the top records for the entire decade of the 90's. The team has finished in 2nd place in the AL Central every year except for 2, I believe.

I know 2nd place finishes don't mean squat, but I think it's important to recognize the Sox haven't hit ROCK BOTTOM in 24 years except for maybe the '89 season and the '99 season. They have been a competitive, entertaining team to watch for a majority of JR's reign.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-26-2004, 01:16 PM
The Sox have had a pretty good team for most of those years. Unfortunately, they don't have a flag to show for it. From '90 to '97, I think they had the 2nd best record in baseball. They had one of the top records for the entire decade of the 90's. The team has finished in 2nd place in the AL Central every year except for 2, I believe.

I know 2nd place finishes don't mean squat, but I think it's important to recognize the Sox haven't hit ROCK BOTTOM in 24 years except for maybe the '89 season and the '99 season. They have been a competitive, entertaining team to watch for a majority of JR's reign.I think you are WAAAAAAAAAY overestimating the level of success the Sox have achieved. In 24 years of JR ownership, do you know how many playoff victories we have? Forget about series wins... just add up the playoff *game* victories... 1-2-3... Three. Two of them came in 1993, and the other was in 1983. The closest we came to winning a pennant in 24 years of JR ownership was Tito Landrum's 10th inning dinger in Game 4 of the ALCS... we didn't even make it to a deciding Game 5... and that was 22 seasons ago! It has been all downhill since then... we didn't even win a game in 2000, 7 game victories and 2 series victories short of even going to the World Series. It has been 14 years since we won one lousy playoff game.

Sorry... fish ain't bitin' on this one. The Sox are one of the worst in baseball over JR's 24-year tenure.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 01:20 PM
Sorry... fish ain't bitin' on this one. The Sox are one of the worst in baseball over JR's 24-year tenure.

I'm agreeing that our playoff appearances have not been often, and we haven't faired very well when we've been there. I'm saying that we've fielded a pretty competitive team, generally, over the course of JR's tenure. Our franchise hasn't hit the rock bottom-terrible level for years and years like the Detroit Tigers or, even, the Minnesota Twins did in the 90's after winning championships in the 80's. We've stayed fairly competitive...just not good enough to win a world title. I'm not going to define that as 24 years of futility.

voodoochile
08-26-2004, 01:29 PM
I'm agreeing that our playoff appearances have not been often, and we haven't faired very well when we've been there. I'm saying that we've fielded a pretty competitive team, generally, over the course of JR's tenure. Our franchise hasn't hit the rock bottom-terrible level for years and years like the Detroit Tigers or, even, the Minnesota Twins did in the 90's after winning championships in the 80's. We've stayed fairly competitive...just not good enough to win a world title. I'm not going to define that as 24 years of futility.
You're JR's kindn of fan, Brian. Winning record is good enough.

Both those teams you mention have won world Championships since JR bought the team and the Twinkies may have sucked in the 90's, but they are the toast of the ALC in the 00's.

JR hasn't won 3 division championships in a row since he's been here. Heck, he hasn't even made the playoffs 3 years in a row or even 2 for that matter.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-26-2004, 01:37 PM
....Our franchise hasn't hit the rock bottom-terrible level for years and years like the Detroit Tigers or, even, the Minnesota Twins did in the 90's after winning championships in the 80's...
HUH? Where were you in the late-80's?
:?:

The 1989 White Sox lost their first game of the season, dropped into last-place, and spent every single day for the next six months in dead-last place. This came at the end of a string of four consecutive seasons where the Sox never finished higher than fifth.

Look, you're a Sox Fan and I love to you death... but you're flat-wrong on this one.
:o:

Lip Man 1
08-26-2004, 01:46 PM
Brian says: "Our franchise hasn't hit the rock bottom-terrible level for years and years like the Detroit Tigers or, even, the Minnesota Twins did in the 90's after winning championships in the 80's."

Of course those two teams won a combined three World Series titles as well during the current ownership time frame. Maybe we actually need to hit rock bottom like the organization did in 68-69-70, the end result was a massive overhaul from top to bottom and some success came their way.

This constant run towards nowhere, this seemingly perpetual mediocrity is getting old. Doesn't it get old for you Brian or do you honestly think there is something good in an average record of 83-79 for the last six seasons?

Lip

Paulwny
08-26-2004, 01:50 PM
Hey, it's been a frustrating 40 YEARS - with only a couple of glimmers of hope that were quickly dashed in the first round of the playoffs. A new owner who is committed to winning is desperately needed.
Oh my, has it been 40yrs ? to me '59 feels like it was yesterday, I guess time does fly when you're having fun.

Foulke You
08-26-2004, 01:51 PM
We've stayed fairly competitive...just not good enough to win a world title. I'm not going to define that as 24 years of futility.
And here lies the problem with JR's philosophy on the White Sox. Keep us "competitive" but never quite enough to go over the hump. Keep interest in the team and profit margins high (and board of directors happy) without taking any financial risks in his payroll budget. Every now and then, you catch lightning in a bottle like in 2000 but more often than not, you have years like '03 and '04 where you fall short. This is the Reinsdorfian method.

Reinsdorf made his fortune on making conservative but wise decisions on Real Estate investments. He has applied this conservative, low risk taking method into his baseball team and has not had a lot of playoff success on the field however, I'm quite sure he has made a lot on his financial investment in the White Sox as he did with his Real Estate decisions. Bottom line, Reinsdorf is a great businessman, but a lousy guy to have as an owner in a market like Chicago.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 02:01 PM
The 1989 White Sox lost their first game of the season, dropped into last-place, and spent every single day for the next six months in dead-last place. This came at the end of a string of four consecutive seasons where the Sox never finished higher than fifth.

Look, you're a Sox Fan and I love to you death... but you're flat-wrong on this one.
:o:

I actually stated myself in an earlier post that the two low points of JR's tenure were 1989 and 1999. Those two seasons could be considered hitting rock bottom. But, in both cases, the team was rebuilding and had sensational years the very next year. The Sox didn't spend 5 or 6 years rebuilding.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-26-2004, 02:12 PM
I actually stated myself in an earlier post that the two low points of JR's tenure were 1989 and 1999. Those two seasons could be considered hitting rock bottom. But, in both cases, the team was rebuilding and had sensational years the very next year. The Sox didn't spend 5 or 6 years rebuilding.
HUH?

They *did* spend four years rebuilding, including one entire season where they never once left the cellar. You're going to argue that this is any different than what teams like Minnesota and Detroit have done... fighting over 92 loss seasons and five year rebuilding vs. four?

This is getting beyond ridiculous... I'm out.

:?:

Brian26
08-26-2004, 02:17 PM
HUH?

They *did* spend four years rebuilding, including one entire season where they never once left the cellar. You're going to argue that this is any different than what teams like Minnesota and Detroit have done... fighting over 92 loss seasons and five year rebuilding vs. four?

This is getting beyond ridiculous... I'm out.

:?:

Let's take the last 15 years, since 1990. How many years did the Sox absolutely not have a chance in hell of making the post season before the start of the season? I'll say '98 and '99 and maybe '90 (who knew how amazing that team would be?). We could break this down year-by-year if you want.

Flight #24
08-26-2004, 02:22 PM
HUH?

They *did* spend four years rebuilding, including one entire season where they never once left the cellar. You're going to argue that this is any different than what teams like Minnesota and Detroit have done... fighting over 92 loss seasons and five year rebuilding vs. four?

This is getting beyond ridiculous... I'm out.

:?:
IMO, one of the problems is that they haven't been willing to replicate that multi-year rebuilding process in the past 10-15 years. They haven' tbeen willing to "invest" from a payroll perspective, and they haven't been willing to completely re-build. That's put them in what Jerry Krause used to call the "Boston Celtics" state of being.

From that sense, the fluky first half in 2001 was actually detrimental to the team as it gave the mistaken impresion that the team was very close to being a real WS contender and resulted in some short-term deals (prospects for vets). Since the team was in reality NOT close, and to compound it got hit with injuries, those moves did not work at the cost of some potential longer-term assets (although none of them have really turned out to be all that great).

IMO it'll take either a payroll bump or a multi-year teardown to fix the situation. Hopefully we have enough of an attendance boost from this year to provide the bump needed.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 02:32 PM
This constant run towards nowhere, this seemingly perpetual mediocrity is getting old. Doesn't it get old for you Brian or do you honestly think there is something good in an average record of 83-79 for the last six seasons?


Of course it gets old. Who wants to come in 2nd place every year with 83 wins? What I'm looking for from the Sox is to go into the season with a solid chance of winning a ton of ballgames and going to the playoffs. Since 1990, this team has been assembled to do that EVERY SINGLE YEAR except 1998 and 1999. I can't blame JR because injuries have occurred or we just haven't had luck on our side.

kittle42
08-26-2004, 03:01 PM
Of course it gets old. Who wants to come in 2nd place every year with 83 wins? What I'm looking for from the Sox is to go into the season with a solid chance of winning a ton of ballgames and going to the playoffs. Since 1990, this team has been assembled to do that EVERY SINGLE YEAR except 1998 and 1999. I can't blame JR because injuries have occurred or we just haven't had luck on our side.
So last year occurred because we "didn't have luck on our side?" What a load of crap.

The bottom line is this team was NOT assembled to go to the playoffs every year. Every year, one or two more key acquisitions (read - $$$) were needed. They never happened. It is JR's fault. That's it.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 03:44 PM
So last year occurred because we "didn't have luck on our side?" What a load of crap.

The bottom line is this team was NOT assembled to go to the playoffs every year. Every year, one or two more key acquisitions (read - $$$) were needed. They never happened. It is JR's fault. That's it.

What two key acquisitions did we need last year?

batmanZoSo
08-26-2004, 03:45 PM
The Sox have had a pretty good team for most of those years. Unfortunately, they don't have a flag to show for it. From '90 to '97, I think they had the 2nd best record in baseball. They had one of the top records for the entire decade of the 90's. The team has finished in 2nd place in the AL Central every year except for 2, I believe.

I know 2nd place finishes don't mean squat, but I think it's important to recognize the Sox haven't hit ROCK BOTTOM in 24 years except for maybe the '89 season and the '99 season. They have been a competitive, entertaining team to watch for a majority of JR's reign.
I would only say they hit rock bottom in 89. In 99, first of all we did win 75 games (I don't know how, but we did), but we also were rebuilding and had some excitement watching the young players develop. That was the year Lee and Konerko first broke in with us. It was also Magglio's breakout year, Foulke's as well (though as a dominant long reliever). There was hope that year for the future, it was very tolerable despite the losing record. And the hope was justified the next year. Well, not so much beyond that as we all know.

As for the big topic here, there is something to be said about our consistent respectability during JR's tenure (even if that has been part of our downfall, i.e. no top draft picks). Really, since I started watching in 1990 or so, the only years where we had no chance at truly competing from the start were 98 and 99, possibly 95. Every other year we were decent enough that, with luck, we could win the division.

But that's absolutley as far I--or anyone--could go in defending JR's track record. Zero world series appearances in 24 years is disgraceful. And to just sit on your hands with no sense of urgency to rectify things year after freakin year, not spending money to fill team holes, that's just crap. In a perfect world he'd have sold the team 8 years ago...or 15...or he'd have never invested in the team in the first place. One can say it's not his fault because he answers to someone and doesn't technically own the team, but that's an absolute losing formula to begin with. Either way you look at it then, the team has to be sold for any remote chance of improvement.

TornLabrum
08-26-2004, 03:51 PM
I'm agreeing that our playoff appearances have not been often, and we haven't faired very well when we've been there. I'm saying that we've fielded a pretty competitive team, generally, over the course of JR's tenure. Our franchise hasn't hit the rock bottom-terrible level for years and years like the Detroit Tigers or, even, the Minnesota Twins did in the 90's after winning championships in the 80's. We've stayed fairly competitive...just not good enough to win a world title. I'm not going to define that as 24 years of futility.
I didn't know the object was to field a "pretty competitive team." I thought the object was to win the World Series or at the very least the league pennant. We have done neither during Uncle Jer's tenure. In fact, since 1881 (that's 24 seasons now) we have three division championships and one de facto division championship made possible by Jerry's leadership of the hawk faction of the owners in 1994. Since we've owned the club the Florida Marlins, who were created a decade ago, have won two World Series.

So exactly what has JR done for his club's fans?

kittle42
08-26-2004, 04:10 PM
What two key acquisitions did we need last year?
It's not even necessary to get into specific players. The point is this team has always needed another guy or two to push them over the hump and has never gotten them. Last year, another starter would have been nice, as would a CF or quality catcher for the whole season.

Don't get nit-picky about certain players/positions. Others have pointed out more significant problems with your argument.

TornLabrum
08-26-2004, 04:15 PM
HUH? Where were you in the late-80's?
:?:

The 1989 White Sox lost their first game of the season, dropped into last-place, and spent every single day for the next six months in dead-last place. This came at the end of a string of four consecutive seasons where the Sox never finished higher than fifth.

Look, you're a Sox Fan and I love to you death... but you're flat-wrong on this one.
:o:
I've got your back, George. Let's take a look at the Sox stellar record under Uncle Jer, shall we?

1981: 54-52 3rd (overall standing--split season)
1982: 87-75 3rd
1983: 99-73 1st
1984: 74-88 6th
1985: 85-77 3rd
1986: 72-90 5th
1987: 77-85 5th
1988: 71-90 5th
1989: 69-92 7th
1990: 94-68 2nd
1991: 87-75 2nd
1992: 87-76 3rd
1993: 94-68 1st
1994: 67-46 1st (season shortened by strike)
1995: 68-76 3rd
1996: 85-77 2nd
1997: 80-81 2nd
1998: 80-82 2nd
1999: 75-86 2nd
2000: 95-67 1st
2001: 83-79 3rd
2002: 81-81 2nd
2003: 86-76 2nd
2004: 61-63 3rd (so far)
Overall record: 1911-1823 (.512)

Position in standings:
1st: 4 (including an unofficial division championship due to the 1993 strike)
2nd: 8
3rd: 6 (and in 3rd right now)
4th: 0
5th: 3
6th: 1
7th: 1

Seasons over .500: 13
Seasons at .500: 1
Seasons below .500: 9 (and below .500 now)

That qualifies as something better than mediocre.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 04:26 PM
It's not even necessary to get into specific players. The point is this team has always needed another guy or two to push them over the hump and has never gotten them. Last year, another starter would have been nice, as would a CF or quality catcher for the whole season.

Don't get nit-picky about certain players/positions. Others have pointed out more significant problems with your argument.

It seems like people here would rather have a World Championship and then several years of losing baseball as opposed to having a mediocre-to-pretty good team for several years without winning any flags.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 04:29 PM
Since we've owned the club the Florida Marlins, who were created a decade ago, have won two World Series.

So exactly what has JR done for his club's fans?

So JR should go out and buy a World Title like Mr. Blockbuster Video did in '97, and then realize that his payroll is so high that he needs to clean house before spring training, effectively destroying the franchise for the next 5 years? That's not the solution.

kittle42
08-26-2004, 04:35 PM
It seems like people here would rather have a World Championship and then several years of losing baseball as opposed to having a mediocre-to-pretty good team for several years without winning any flags.
Yes.

kittle42
08-26-2004, 04:36 PM
So JR should go out and buy a World Title like Mr. Blockbuster Video did in '97, and then realize that his payroll is so high that he needs to clean house before spring training, effectively destroying the franchise for the next 5 years? That's not the solution.Why not - especially in a town that hasn't won anything for almost a century! Plus, last I checked, the Fish won again a few years later....

Hypothetical argument between Sox and Marlin fans:

Marlin fan: We won the World Series last year and in 1997!

Sox fan: Oh yeah? Well we've been consistently better than medicore and better than you between 1998-2002! Nyah, nyah.

Pathetic.

nordhagen
08-26-2004, 08:48 PM
I like Willsy but one time a few years ago I heard him ask in a postgame show if you'd rather be like the Toronto Blue Jays who won world titles in 1992 and '93 but were now in the dumper with no future or have the Sox' future. Well, I think all of us would take the titles and see what happened from there.

And sometime earlier this year I heard JR's one-time more vocal partner in crime Eddie Einhorn - or was it Einsdorf and Reinhorn or Ribbie and Roobarb - say he was proud of the fact the Sox had been over .500 during their ownership tenure. Yippee!!! There's a marketing campaign, White Sox baseball, a little better than mediocre for more than 20 years.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2004, 08:56 PM
Without question I'd take the title and run like a thief. besides if they sucked the next five years you can always watch your tapes from the championship season. (What do you think I've been watching the past month? Games from years when the Sox actually fielded a good team 83, 90, 93 and so forth)


Lip

Mohoney
08-26-2004, 09:07 PM
It seems like people here would rather have a World Championship and then several years of losing baseball as opposed to having a mediocre-to-pretty good team for several years without winning any flags.

Unless you want to spend Steinbrenner-type money, that's really the only shot you have to win it all. Suck for two or three years, stock your farm system to the gills, and let the best prospects you have grow at the Major League level. Then, just as your prospects turn the corner, add a piece or two each year for the next two years to field a competitive enough team to generate fan interest. Then the next year, you go for broke and fill all your remaining holes. It may not win you an AL East title, but it sure as hell will win you an AL Central title, as Cleveland will prove in the not so distant future.

Mohoney
08-26-2004, 09:13 PM
It seems like people here would rather have a World Championship and then several years of losing baseball as opposed to having a mediocre-to-pretty good team for several years without winning any flags.

The first Chicago team to win a World Series will make the other COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. I just hope to God that it's us.

Brian, 87 years without a World Series title doesn't seem a little ridiculous to you? I would rather Win a World Series and have 100 loss seasons for the rest of my life than constantly finish 2nd or 3rd with the occasional division championship and 1st round trouncing.

kitekrazy
08-26-2004, 09:24 PM
The first Chicago team to win a World Series will make the other COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. I just hope to God that it's us.

Well I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe your great grandkids will see one.

Brian26
08-26-2004, 09:44 PM
Let me throw this question out for the sake of discussion:

Pretend Britt Burns struck out Landrum in Game 4, and somehow we ended up winning that game in the bottom of the 10th. Let's say Hoyt goes out and 4-hits the Orioles in Game 5 and we win the pennant at home and go to the World Series. Let's assume we won the World Series in 4 games against the Phillies.

How would that change things today? Assume everything else happened the same way, and we experienced the same futility through the late 80s before having a decent decade in the 90s.

Does that World Title make everything since then easier to digest? Or does it make the last 21 years even more sour...as if JR and EE came into town, won us a World Series, and have been on cruise control ever since.

Just a question.

A. Cavatica
08-26-2004, 09:55 PM
Does that World Title make everything since then easier to digest? Or does it make the last 21 years even more sour...as if JR and EE came into town, won us a World Series, and have been on cruise control ever since.Do you really need an answer?

Of course it would have made everything since easier to digest.

Well, 1994 would still have been tough to take.

kittle42
08-26-2004, 11:39 PM
Do you really need an answer?

Of course it would have made everything since easier to digest.

Well, 1994 would still have been tough to take.
I'm with Cavatica, as I guess most of us are. Brian, I just really don't understand where you're coming from.

Frankfan4life
08-27-2004, 12:52 AM
The first Chicago team to win a World Series will make the other COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. I just hope to God that it's us.

Brian, 87 years without a World Series title doesn't seem a little ridiculous to you? I would rather Win a World Series and have 100 loss seasons for the rest of my life than constantly finish 2nd or 3rd with the occasional division championship and 1st round trouncing.I agree with most of what you've said. The whole idea of playing the game is to win it all. I desperately want to experience a White Sox World Series win before I pass on. I want to savor every dominant performance and cheer my heart out for this team and share the excitement with my family and friends. I want to know (not just dream about) how it feels to finally be the best team in baseball. Just once is all I'm asking. It's hard enough to win the World Series once, so I'll happily take my one World Series win to my grave. This would be something I'd never forget.

I, however, disagree with your assessment that if the cubs win the World Series first, it would render a subsequent Sox win irrelevant. In fact, I believe that it would give the Sox even more of a national stage as they will become the team with the worst World Series history of futility. Even people who hate the Sox would have to admit it's about time for us to win and would probably root for us.

gosox41
08-27-2004, 08:39 AM
Without question I'd take the title and run like a thief. besides if they sucked the next five years you can always watch your tapes from the championship season. (What do you think I've been watching the past month? Games from years when the Sox actually fielded a good team 83, 90, 93 and so forth)


Lip
Well there you have it. 87 years ago a bunch of Sox fans we're hanging out on a street corner (since Al Gore wasn't alive to invent the internet) and we're talking White Sox baseball. They came to the conclusion that they would love to see another Wrold Series Championship in their lifetime. Finally one fan spouted off:

'I would trade in 1 more World Series Championship even if it meant 100 years of futility.'

So it's really out distant relatives fault the Sox aren't winning.


Bob