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Lip Man 1
08-25-2004, 10:52 AM
A thorough look at what happened and why to this season. As many have stated it's more then just 'Maggs and Frank.'

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040824soxrowcenter,1,3230077.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

Baby Fisk
08-25-2004, 11:24 AM
On that cheery note, HAPPY BIRTHDAY LIP MAN! :happybday

From following some of your threads in the Roadhouse, most of us here know what you want more than ever, so here's hoping it happens really damn soon!

Tekijawa
08-25-2004, 11:27 AM
I had a bad feeling when Hunter Ran over Burke and nothing was done, that we wouldn't wint the division.... I seem to remember the last time we won a Division that the turning point of that season was a fight with the Tigers, it seems this time around that no one cared...

infohawk
08-25-2004, 11:34 AM
A thorough look at what happened and why to this season. As many have stated it's more then just 'Maggs and Frank.'

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040824soxrowcenter,1,3230077.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip
Yeah, I saw that. I would certainly agree that we need more players with "baseball smarts." KW must address this in the offseason. Hopefully KW won't just add a player or two. We need a certain degree of roster turnover. Big name position players aren't necessary. Just guys that do the little things well. In other words, let's not get a guy like Carlos Beltran or Nomar Garciaparra and another starter and run this team out their for another season. The philosophy and approach of the team must change. Only new players with different skills will accomplish this goal.

Flight #24
08-25-2004, 11:38 AM
On that cheery note, HAPPY BIRTHDAY LIP MAN! :happybday

From following some of your threads in the Roadhouse, most of us here know what you want more than ever, so here's hoping it happens really damn soon!
Happy birthday Lip. Here's hoping the next 12 months are better for you than the last 12 (no matter how good the last 12 were)!

JDP
08-25-2004, 11:42 AM
Yes, happy birthday wishes from the USAF as well. :smile:

lowesox
08-25-2004, 11:55 AM
I had a bad feeling when Hunter Ran over Burke and nothing was done, that we wouldn't wint the division....
I did too. That incident was definitely this year's Jose Paniagua.

In fact, it alone has been enough to switch me from a Guillen supporter to a Guillen detractor.

Dan H
08-25-2004, 11:58 AM
I had a bad feeling when Hunter Ran over Burke and nothing was done, that we wouldn't wint the division.... I seem to remember the last time we won a Division that the turning point of that season was a fight with the Tigers, it seems this time around that no one cared...
At first I thought the Hunter-Burke thing was just another rough play at the plate. I was wrong. Whether it was or not is no longer the issue. Ozzie Guillen should admit right now he was wrong for not sticking up for his players, and he should do it now. There is nothing wrong with admitting a mistake. The division looks out of reach now, but the season still isn't over, and coming out and making such an admission may at least make the season more respectful. Even if it doesn't he can win some players back for next year.

SOXSINCE'70
08-25-2004, 12:03 PM
Happy birthday Lip. Here's hoping the next 12 months are better for you than the last 12 (no matter how good the last 12 were)!
Maybe they'll win on your birthday like they did on mine.That was June 12th,the night Ozzie got ejected for the first time and C Lee extended his hit streak in a win.

RichFitztightly
08-25-2004, 01:36 PM
At first I thought the Hunter-Burke thing was just another rough play at the plate. I was wrong. Whether it was or not is no longer the issue. Ozzie Guillen should admit right now he was wrong for not sticking up for his players, and he should do it now. There is nothing wrong with admitting a mistake. The division looks out of reach now, but the season still isn't over, and coming out and making such an admission may at least make the season more respectful. Even if it doesn't he can win some players back for next year.
I understand what you're saying, but I never took Ozzie's response to mean he wasn't sticking up for his players. Now, I was disappointed more than anybody that nothing was done back to Hunter or anybody else. However, when Ozzie said, "This is the way you play baseball, it's not a dirty play" I took that as Ozzie's way of challenging his players to pull a move like that on their own and not necessarily throw at somebody. To me the biggest disappointment is the Sox did nothing and it showed the rest of the league that they were huge sissies and wouldn't stick up for themselves. Now every major league team knows (rightly or wrongly) that they can just bully the Sox and take their lunch money and they won't do anything about it. You'll see that belief manifest itself in various ways throughout the end of the year. The whole Schilling beaning Timo was just the latest.

TornLabrum
08-25-2004, 02:28 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I never took Ozzie's response to mean he wasn't sticking up for his players. Now, I was disappointed more than anybody that nothing was done back to Hunter or anybody else. However, when Ozzie said, "This is the way you play baseball, it's not a dirty play" I took that as Ozzie's way of challenging his players to pull a move like that on their own and not necessarily throw at somebody. To me the biggest disappointment is the Sox did nothing and it showed the rest of the league that they were huge sissies and wouldn't stick up for themselves. Now every major league team knows (rightly or wrongly) that they can just bully the Sox and take their lunch money and they won't do anything about it. You'll see that belief manifest itself in various ways throughout the end of the year. The whole Schilling beaning Timo was just the latest.
I took it the way you did, too. I figure these guys are just too stupid to figure it out.

BTW, :happybday Lip!

mdep524
08-25-2004, 02:32 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I never took Ozzie's response to mean he wasn't sticking up for his players. Now, I was disappointed more than anybody that nothing was done back to Hunter or anybody else. However, when Ozzie said, "This is the way you play baseball, it's not a dirty play" I took that as Ozzie's way of challenging his players to pull a move like that on their own and not necessarily throw at somebody. To me the biggest disappointment is the Sox did nothing and it showed the rest of the league that they were huge sissies and wouldn't stick up for themselves. Now every major league team knows (rightly or wrongly) that they can just bully the Sox and take their lunch money and they won't do anything about it. You'll see that belief manifest itself in various ways throughout the end of the year. The whole Schilling beaning Timo was just the latest.
Perfectly put. That's exactly the way I see it.

mdep524
08-25-2004, 02:39 PM
Yeah, I saw that. I would certainly agree that we need more players with "baseball smarts." KW must address this in the offseason. Hopefully KW won't just add a player or two. We need a certain degree of roster turnover. Big name position players aren't necessary. Just guys that do the little things well. In other words, let's not get a guy like Carlos Beltran or Nomar Garciaparra and another starter and run this team out their for another season. The philosophy and approach of the team must change. Only new players with different skills will accomplish this goal.
Could you imagine a line up of

Crawford LF
Kendall C
Renteria SS
Thomas DH
Lee 1B
Rowand CF
Catalanatto RF
Crede 3B
Hairston 2B

I know that is pure fantasy, but hey, those guys are all available in some form, and it's Lip's birthday, so what he heck, why not dream a little?! :D: :happybday

balke
08-25-2004, 02:41 PM
The Sox wound up losing seven in a row, and by the time they stopped the bleeding they were five games behind the Twins.
It would be easy to blame the collapse on the loss of Magglio Ordonez and Frank Thomas. Certainly losing two big bats in the middle of the lineup is going to be noticed.



I think that had more to do with the adjustment period of losing 2 huge hitters in the middle of the lineup. This team was in shock, weren't comfortable with the adjustment right away, and probably didn't have confidence they could score runs without the 2 big guys.

But we were big wusses all season. THat's indisputable. Even during our +.500 months, Frank took some high strikes at his face after homeruns that he should be charging the mound for. Everyone was afraid of this team, and we let them get in our faces.

Ozzie plays the higher ground guy whether we are winners or losers, and that doesn't sit well with me. THomas should charge the mound at least once in his career, with the crap that gets tossed at him, or we need to find another way to get at their pitchers if he's not going to do that.

That burke crap should've had serious repercussions for the twins, clean play or not. You don't just concede that it was a clean play, you use events like that to pump your team up, and make Torii think twice next time. Not only did we skid, we now look like "wussies" in the process

Baby Fisk
08-25-2004, 02:53 PM
Ozzie plays the higher ground guy whether we are winners or losers, and that doesn't sit well with me. THomas should charge the mound at least once in his career, with the crap that gets tossed at him, or we need to find another way to get at their pitchers if he's not going to do that.
:hurt
"How'm I supposed to charge the mound on a bum foot?"

:maggs
"Or a bum knee?"

:everett:
"I'd rather cuss out umpires, anyway."

:rowand
"And I'm gunna bunt the next ******* pitch even if it brains me!"

:crede
"And I will continue to get one hit per every four at-bats, guaranteed."

:ralomar:
"I can't even guarantee you THAT!"

:ohno
"Why are you still here?!"

PatK
08-25-2004, 03:12 PM
I'm wondering why they don't place any blame on Ozzie's inexperience as a manager.

When you're winning, you tend to overlook bad managing. But now, since the 9-20 run we've been on, it's a lot easier to notice.

He hasn't managed his pitching staff well. He's made some strange choices as far as pinch hitters and batting orders goes.

I'm not saying that it's his fault that they aren't doing well. But I wonder what this team could have done given the same circumstances under say, Cito Gaston or a more experienced manager.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2004, 03:58 PM
Gang:

The last 12 months have been difficult in more ways then I care to get into right now, personally, professionally, the situation in the Middle East and of course with the Sox.

I am very grateful for all your kind wishes today. Someday maybe I can get home (it's been since 91) and thank you personally.

Lip

infohawk
08-25-2004, 04:13 PM
I'm wondering why they don't place any blame on Ozzie's inexperience as a manager.

When you're winning, you tend to overlook bad managing. But now, since the 9-20 run we've been on, it's a lot easier to notice.

He hasn't managed his pitching staff well. He's made some strange choices as far as pinch hitters and batting orders goes.

I'm not saying that it's his fault that they aren't doing well. But I wonder what this team could have done given the same circumstances under say, Cito Gaston or a more experienced manager.Its not the manager. Its the team. I'm glad to see, however, that both KW and Ozzie recognize that the team needs players with a higher "baseball IQ." We have seen the same problems year after year. I've come to the conclusion that the 2000 team was the exception, not the rule. Everyone played well that year. If I recall correctly, Valentin and Singleton even hit for average. Fading a bit down the stretch and in the playoffs provided a glimpse of the inconsistency that was to come. The good news is that I believe the team can be re-tooled around pitching and improved fundamentals for next year without needing to "rebuild."

batmanZoSo
08-25-2004, 07:14 PM
Its not the manager. Its the team. I'm glad to see, however, that both KW and Ozzie recognize that the team needs players with a higher "baseball IQ." We have seen the same problems year after year. I've come to the conclusion that the 2000 team was the exception, not the rule. Everyone played well that year. If I recall correctly, Valentin and Singleton (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=409,28180399,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,0) even hit for average. Fading a bit down the stretch and in the playoffs provided a glimpse of the inconsistency that was to come. The good news is that I believe the team can be re-tooled around pitching and improved fundamentals for next year without needing to "rebuild."
I agree.

But the main thing is the pitching. We're gonna need another upper echelon starter and two rock solid arms in the bullpen. Jon Garland should be the fifth starter if we're serious. Basically, if he's scheduled to start a game in the playoffs, we're not for real. The only way you are is if Schilling and Johnson are going before him (and by God they aren't).

I mean he could turn it around and finally become dominating next year, but it's highly unlikely and it would be naive to think it'll happen. And if it does by the grace of God, imagine how great the rotation would be to have say a 17-9 Garland in the 5th slot. Either way, he's a fine 5th starter no matter what he improves--or doesn't--about his game. And I stand firm in the mindset that he's gotta be bumped down for us to be serious contenders. KW likes to talk World Series, but it's nothing more than talk. In no year during his regime has this team been Championship caliber. Playoff caliber, but nothing more. This is what you have to do I think.

We need to stray a bit from the all-or-nothing garbage and get probably two new sound position players in, but it's not all that important who they are. As long as they're well rounded. You can say all you want about lack of fundamentals killing us (and I agree that it has) but you can win playing long-ball if you have great pitching. And we're a lot closer to having a great pitching staff (basically a starter and two solid relievers IMO) than we are to having a slick fielding, small ball type team like the Twins or the Marlins.

The fifth spot has almost single handedly kept us out of the playoffs the last two years if you just look at the numbers. If you add a solid, above-.500 starter into the mix while subtracting that rotating cast of .200 winning pitchers, we're probably looking to repeat right now. ADDRESS THE PITCHING! Please!

Dan H
08-26-2004, 09:15 AM
I understand what you're saying, but I never took Ozzie's response to mean he wasn't sticking up for his players. Now, I was disappointed more than anybody that nothing was done back to Hunter or anybody else. However, when Ozzie said, "This is the way you play baseball, it's not a dirty play" I took that as Ozzie's way of challenging his players to pull a move like that on their own and not necessarily throw at somebody. To me the biggest disappointment is the Sox did nothing and it showed the rest of the league that they were huge sissies and wouldn't stick up for themselves. Now every major league team knows (rightly or wrongly) that they can just bully the Sox and take their lunch money and they won't do anything about it. You'll see that belief manifest itself in various ways throughout the end of the year. The whole Schilling beaning Timo was just the latest.
I still think there are times when you have to stick up for your team, and this was one of them. Then it would be to them to take care of themselves. The manager is a leader, and this was one time he really had to lead. But you are right. Then the players have to take it from there.