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idseer
08-24-2004, 09:43 PM
my last aaron update was august 1st and i thought i'd revisit his contribution to the team.
since aug.1 the sox have gone 9 - 13 (and this directly follows the 7 game losing streak in july) to essentially fall completely out of the race. however, aaron was without question the brightest spot in an otherwise dreary showing.

his .318 average is very good, of course, but in addition, he's raised his ops from .896 to .936 and he's added 7 homeruns to his total. the really great thing is that he's doing it against both lefties AND righties. hitting at a .294 clip vs righthanders with an ops of .817. with 14 steals vs 3 caught and fielding very well in center he's the most complete player on the team right now.
unbelievable that a few weeks ago he was relegated to 'platoon only' material at wsi. anyone out there still think that?

i also found this interesting. as a leadoff hitter (something i believe we all think we're badly lacking) he has an obp of .418 and an ops of 1.093. ... and is hitting .361! in addition, he has more homeruns and more rbi's in the one spot than any other position.

you gotta wonder where we'd be right now without him. i'd guess somewhere behind detroit.

he's fast becoming the team's mvp. it's great having a story like his on this team during this downward spiral and he gives me something to look forward to next season as the powers that be try to right this s(t)inking ship.

A. Cavatica
08-24-2004, 09:46 PM
I was a Rowand fan, but I have to say I was wrong about him.

He's better than I thought.

balke
08-24-2004, 09:52 PM
I was a Rowand fan, but I have to say I was wrong about him.

He's better than I thought.

Seconded

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-24-2004, 10:01 PM
Secondedthirded

Soxzilla
08-24-2004, 10:13 PM
thirdedFourth...ded.

P.S.-

:threadrules:

If aaron continues this throughout the final month and into spring training, he sure as hell can have that leadoff spot. Oh thank heavans, ONE HOLE WE WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT!

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-24-2004, 10:17 PM
Fourth...ded.

P.S.-

:threadrules:

If aaron continues this throughout the final month and into spring training, he sure as hell can have that leadoff spot. Oh thank heavans, ONE HOLE WE WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT!
true dat true dat :cool:

Rex Hudler
08-24-2004, 10:38 PM
This doesn't need to be an "I told you so" thread and get ugly, but it just goes to show that some players actually do improve and show what they can do when getting regular playing time. Sometimes it takes more than a week or a month, or even a year in many cases for some players kick it into gear and show what they can really do.

That said, being one of Aaron's biggest proponents, I don't think he is a long term .300 hitter. I think he will settle into the .280 range over time. I think he will show more power in the future as he has done lately. I like the fact that he is taking more walks lately, but don't see him as a high OBP guy down the road.

Fungo
08-25-2004, 08:28 AM
This doesn't need to be an "I told you so" thread and get ugly, but it just goes to show that some players actually do improve and show what they can do when getting regular playing time. Sometimes it takes more than a week or a month, or even a year in many cases for some players kick it into gear and show what they can really do.

That said, being one of Aaron's biggest proponents, I don't think he is a long term .300 hitter. I think he will settle into the .280 range over time. I think he will show more power in the future as he has done lately. I like the fact that he is taking more walks lately, but don't see him as a high OBP guy down the road.
I agree with Rex. I've been down on Rowand in the past, but he is putting up solid numbers with regular playing time, but I too think that his average will tapper down a bit in the future. His defense, IMO, still needs some work, but his bad reads are made up by hustle. I admire his work ethic, always have. He's the type of player you love to see have some success because he is such a hard worker. He's the type of player I, and probably most people on this board who've ever dreamed of playing professional baseball, would hope to be like: always hustling, running out ground balls, getting to the park early, etc.

Iguana775
08-25-2004, 08:29 AM
I agree with Rex. I've been down on Rowand in the past, but he is putting up solid numbers with regular playing time, but I too think that his average will tapper down a bit in the future. His defense, IMO, still needs some work, but his bad reads are made up by hustle. I admire his work ethic, always have. He's the type of player you love to see have some success because he is such a hard worker. He's the type of player I, and probably most people on this board who've ever dreamed of playing professional baseball, would hope to be like: always hustling, running out ground balls, getting to the park early, etc.


if only the rest of the team work their ass off like Rowand....

MRKARNO
08-25-2004, 08:37 AM
I think his average will go down a bit too, party because he's had a higer than normal amount of at bats vs. lefties. Against lefties, he has 16 walks in 124 at bats, but against righties, he only has 7 walks in 218 at bats. Also, 10 of his 18 homers came against lefties. I think with regular playing time however that he could be one of the premeir centerfielders in baseball. At his best I think he could produce 30+ homers, 30 steals and a .330 average over the course of a season and at his worst he will be striking out way to much to put up those kind of numbers. Rowand is very interesting because he could end up being a league superstar if he continues to show improvement with a full year of consistant playing time.

Mickster
08-25-2004, 09:33 AM
My biggest problem with Aaron in the past didn't involve his bat at all. When he started the season, he seemed lost in CF, would get absolutely horrible jumps on the ball, would take bad routes, etc... The biggest improvement with Aaron, in my eyes, has little to do with his offensive production, but rather his stellar defensive play in CF. IMHO.

SoxxoS
08-25-2004, 10:31 AM
At least we know now that he isn't one of the problems...and we have a solid player in CF. That is one less thing for KW to worry about. Now, all he has to worry about are:

Maggs
Thomas
Crede
Borchard
Valentin
Harris
Garland
Marte
Politte
Adkins
Cotts

That about does it. Clee, Konerko Buerhle, Contreras, Garcia and Shingo are solid :D: .

OurBitchinMinny
08-25-2004, 12:38 PM
Rowand has been way better than I expected. He must improve on his hitting with RISP (only .243 as of today). And he must limit his stupid ABs and do the little things at the plate (bunt, move the guy over). But all in all he has been a pleasant surprise from may on

wdelaney72
08-25-2004, 12:40 PM
I was one of the many that kept referring to him as AAArowand. I now fully admit to being wrong.

Until he shows otherwise, he has earned the right to be our everyday CF.

I love Aaron Rowand. He's been the only true breath of fresh air on this team of crap.

DumpJerry
08-25-2004, 12:44 PM
Rowand is the exact player we need for the next few years (good thing I'm not KW, Crash's agent would be on the phone right now making sure I back that up with $$). He plays excellent smallball with his bat, Since July started I have not had to cringe when he was up with runners aboard who needed to advance or score. His defense is improving with regular play as he gets used to being in CF.

His attitude is excellent. Keep in mind his nickname, Crash. It is more than just what he does with his mountain bike. He is not a prima donna, so there will be no need to soothe his "sensitive" side if Ozzie makes any decisions about where he plays or bats. If we had about three more Rowand-type hitters on the club, opposing pitchers will stop circling the dates they face us in red and hand out all their comp tickets to show to the family and girlfriends........

I hope Aaron is reading this, he deserves to hear compliments from those of us who pay his salary!:smile:

HomeFish
08-25-2004, 01:09 PM
Rowand is having a career year, folks. Don't get too excited. We've seen it before.

It's just a shame he's having it now, in a year where we don't have a chance to ride him into the postseason.

SoxxoS
08-25-2004, 01:10 PM
Rowand is having a career year, folks. Don't get too excited. We've seen it before.

It's just a shame he's having it now, in a year where we don't have a chance to ride him into the postseason.
How do you know he is having a career year?

:cleo ?

HomeFish
08-25-2004, 01:18 PM
How do you know he is having a career year?

:cleo ?

I firmly believe that Rowand is not a major league player, and, as such, he is incapable of putting such numbers up on a regular basis.

While I base this on a central tenent of my faith and not on any claimed ability to see the future, I am willing to bet that we will never see such numbers from Rowand again.

skobabe8
08-25-2004, 01:31 PM
I've always been a F.O.C., strating back when he was crashing into walls wearing #44. I knew i would like a guy like that. :D:

idseer
08-25-2004, 01:38 PM
I firmly believe that Rowand is not a major league player, and, as such, he is incapable of putting such numbers up on a regular basis.

While I base this on a central tenent of my faith and not on any claimed ability to see the future, I am willing to bet that we will never see such numbers from Rowand again.
then exactly what ability IS it you use to make such a claim?

it strikes me as rather silly to claim a man is having a 'career year' in the first full season he's ever played.

Soxzilla
08-25-2004, 01:46 PM
I was one of the many that kept referring to him as AAArowand. I now fully admit to being wrong.

Until he shows otherwise, he has earned the right to be our everyday CF.

I love Aaron Rowand. He's been the only true breath of fresh air on this team of crap.
:KW
"Alright Aaron. Your my centerfielder....until your dead....or I find somebody better. Now who's roughnecks are these!?"
:rowand
"WILLIAMS' ROUGHNECKS!"

But in all seriousness. DumpJerry brought up a good point about us not having to worry about a feminent side to Crash, which is...so far, incredibly correct. Aaron seems like he is the kind of guy that if he is benched, he will accept it, but he won't pout like 90% of the other players on our team (Or even SOSA). Instead he'll hustle his ass off, during practice and BP to regain his starting job. Which is the kind of player that becomes a fan favorite and a staple on this chicago white sox team for many years to come...

maurice
08-25-2004, 02:45 PM
It's one thing to say that Rowand is having a career year, which is possible. It's utterly ridiculous to continue to claim that he's is not a major league player. He has a .290 career AVE in over 900 ABs. Barring another major injury, the chances of that dropping below the absolute floor for a MLB CF are pretty slim.

iwannago
08-25-2004, 02:57 PM
I wonder if he is still running those bad routes??????


:)

Randar68
08-25-2004, 02:59 PM
My biggest problem with Aaron in the past didn't involve his bat at all. When he started the season, he seemed lost in CF, would get absolutely horrible jumps on the ball, would take bad routes, etc... The biggest improvement with Aaron, in my eyes, has little to do with his offensive production, but rather his stellar defensive play in CF. IMHO.
Yep. I've been extremely impressed that he's been able to correct some of the things that have dogged him for not just a year or a few months, but his entire career up to this point. I've been very happy with his defense since about early July.

His hitting has been above and beyond what any rational person could have possibly predicted, and although he isn't going to be a leadoff hitter, he's definitely been a valuable player and been one of only a couple second-half performers.

Here's to you Rowand, for turning hard-work into results, I didn't think you could do it. Thank you for proving me wrong.

batmanZoSo
08-25-2004, 03:03 PM
And here's to you...the High Life man. Mmm..yeah.

:gulp:

DumpJerry
08-25-2004, 03:11 PM
:KW
"Alright Aaron. Your my centerfielder....until your dead....or I find somebody better. Now who's roughnecks are these!?"
:rowand
"WILLIAMS' ROUGHNECKS!"

But in all seriousness. DumpJerry brought up a good point about us not having to worry about a feminent side to Crash, which is...so far, incredibly correct. Aaron seems like he is the kind of guy that if he is benched, he will accept it, but he won't pout like 90% of the other players on our team (Or even SOSA). Instead he'll hustle his ass off, during practice and BP to regain his starting job. Which is the kind of player that becomes a fan favorite and a staple on this chicago white sox team for many years to come...Thanks for the props, Soxzilla. I owe you a beer.:gulp: I noticed from your profile your birthday is the day after mine...that explains it!

balke
08-25-2004, 03:41 PM
HAHAHAHA!!! LMAO! CAREER YEAR?! Slappin grand salamis, throwing people out at 2nd and Home, Making amazing grabs at the wall, and stealing bases all in his first full season!?

A-Row 105 G 367 AB: .318 avg 18 Hr 30 2B 2triples .370 OBP . 572 slg 14 SB
I just tried to post you the #'s of where we have seen players like this before in thier first year as a full time starter. (120 G 400 Ab or more)

In a listing of CLee PK Frank Maggs BARRY BONDS! Ken Griffey Jr. A-row holds his own in 2b Sb 3B Avg OBP Slg% and Hr A very impressive hold up I might add. He was most comparable to Frank actually. Frank beat him in Hr OBS and Slg %, matched in nearly everything else.

A-Row meets or beats nearly all of them in every category. If I could post the damn things so they weren't so scrunched. I'm not wasting my time doing it myself... so take my word for it.

MIGHT I ADD.. Maggs put up impressive #'s in his first season as a full time starter (must worse than A-Rows), and came back the next season to be a 30-30 guy. So, Lets freakin trade this guy already, before he ruins this organization! we needs prospects!!! (my first teal :cool: )

idseer
08-25-2004, 04:11 PM
Yep. I've been extremely impressed that he's been able to correct some of the things that have dogged him for not just a year or a few months, but his entire career up to this point. I've been very happy with his defense since about early July.

His hitting has been above and beyond what any rational person could have possibly predicted, and although he isn't going to be a leadoff hitter, he's definitely been a valuable player and been one of only a couple second-half performers.

Here's to you Rowand, for turning hard-work into results, I didn't think you could do it. Thank you for proving me wrong.
now ... was that so hard? :D:

Randar68
08-25-2004, 05:37 PM
now ... was that so hard? :D:
When people like "balke" make posts like that, you see how the rhetoric escalates. When people go so over-the-top out of their gourd, you have to stoop to the other extreme to try to pull tham back to the middle. It all amounts to a lot of :thud:

balke
08-25-2004, 05:51 PM
I'll try this I guess, I'm bored..
First seasons listed with at LEAST 140 G 400+ AB
"where we've seen This type of player before?"

Aaron Rowand's First full season stats vs. some familar all-stars and random Outfielders first full season stats.

A-Row's stats:
YR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
2004 105 346 72 110 30 2 18 44 23 66 14 3 .318 .370 .572 .942


Clee
2000 152 572 107 172 29 2 24 92 38 94 13 4 .301 .345 .484 .829

Thomas
1991 158 559 104 178 31 2 32 109 138 112 1 2 .318 .453 .553 1.006

Maggs
1998 145 535 70 151 25 2 14 65 28 53 9 7 .282 .326 .415 .741

PK
1999 142 513 71 151 31 4 24 81 45 68 1 0 .294 .352 .511 .863

Barry Bonds
1987 150 551 99 144 34 9 25 59 54 88 32 10 .261 .329 .492 .821

Ken Griffey Jr
1990 155 597 91 179 28 7 22 80 63 81 16 11 .300 .366 .481 .847

Adrien Beltre
1999 152 538 84 148 27 5 15 67 61 105 18 7 .275 .352 .428 .780

Beltran
1999 156 663 112 194 27 7 22 108 46 123 27 8 .293 .337 .454 .791

A-Rod
1996 146 601 141 215 54 1 36 123 59 104 15 4 .358 .414 .631 1.045

Torii Hunter
2001 148 564 82 147 32 5 27 92 29 125 9 6 .261 .306 .479 .785

He's no A-Rod, but looks pretty dern good to me. Looks to beat everyone at 2B. Great OPS. Will probably have 25 HR at seasons end (ties BB). Probably only beaten by bonds and Beltre for SB. 2nd best BA next to A-Rod. On average about 45 games less played by Aaron.

:cool:

Randar68
08-25-2004, 05:55 PM
I'll try this I guess, I'm bored..
First seasons listed with at LEAST 140 G 400+ AB
"where we've seen This type of player before?"

Aaron Rowand's First full season stats vs. some familar all-stars and random Outfielders first full season stats.Never mind being here 3 years, even as a part-time player adjusting to the major league level of competition. He'd had 582 AB's and played in 282 games in the pros before this year. Your "In his first full season" comparisons aren't worth the "free" internet webspace they're stored in.

For all the numbers you've posted, you sure seem to be blindly ignorant to reality.

IN those 582 AB's over 3 years, he had a .273 Avg and a .325 OBP. Not great, not terrible, definitely suitable for an everyday CF'er if he could handle the defensive responsibilites, which, up until the last 3 months this season, he hasn't been able to do reliably.

Again, your rhetoric is completely over-the-top.

balke
08-25-2004, 05:56 PM
When people like "balke" make posts like that, you see how the rhetoric escalates. When people go so over-the-top out of their gourd, you have to stoop to the other extreme to try to pull tham back to the middle. It all amounts to a lot of :thud:
Just adding to the convo. How you can say a 26 year old is having a career year never to be seen again... its just beyond me. He's obviously something special.

Rex Hudler
08-25-2004, 05:59 PM
I'll try this I guess, I'm bored..
First seasons listed with at LEAST 140 G 400+ AB
"where we've seen This type of player before?"

Aaron Rowand's First full season stats vs. some familar all-stars and random Outfielders first full season stats.

A-Row's stats:
YR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
2004 105 346 72 110 30 2 18 44 23 66 14 3 .318 .370 .572 .942


Clee
2000 152 572 107 172 29 2 24 92 38 94 13 4 .301 .345 .484 .829

Thomas
1991 158 559 104 178 31 2 32 109 138 112 1 2 .318 .453 .553 1.006

Maggs
1998 145 535 70 151 25 2 14 65 28 53 9 7 .282 .326 .415 .741

PK
1999 142 513 71 151 31 4 24 81 45 68 1 0 .294 .352 .511 .863

Barry Bonds
1987 150 551 99 144 34 9 25 59 54 88 32 10 .261 .329 .492 .821

Ken Griffey Jr
1990 155 597 91 179 28 7 22 80 63 81 16 11 .300 .366 .481 .847

Adrien Beltre
1999 152 538 84 148 27 5 15 67 61 105 18 7 .275 .352 .428 .780

Beltran
1999 156 663 112 194 27 7 22 108 46 123 27 8 .293 .337 .454 .791

A-Rod
1996 146 601 141 215 54 1 36 123 59 104 15 4 .358 .414 .631 1.045

Torii Hunter
2001 148 564 82 147 32 5 27 92 29 125 9 6 .261 .306 .479 .785

He's no A-Rod, but looks pretty dern good to me. Looks to beat everyone at 2B. Great OPS. Will probably have 25 HR at seasons end (ties BB). Probably only beaten by bonds and Beltre for SB. 2nd best BA next to A-Rod. On average about 45 games less played by Aaron.

:cool:
Now compare the players in that list that had 2300 (combined Major and Minor League) at bats and had their first full season at the age of 26 (he'll be 27 in four days) and see how things shake out........ you mean none of the above fit that category???? shocker!

I am a proponent of Rowand and am one of the few irrational ones that argued often with Randar, but Rowand does not belong in that group. Aaron has the ability to be a nice player and one that helps a team win, but he is not, nor will not be an elite player. Let's not get carried away.

Randar68
08-25-2004, 06:00 PM
Just adding to the convo. How you can say a 26 year old is having a career year never to be seen again... its just beyond me. He's obviously something special.I didn't. He's having his best year so far. there's nothing that says his power numbers or OBP won't improve, but I think you're only setting yourself up for disappointment if you think he's going to be a .310+ hitter in the future when he has to face RHP's almost 80% of the time. (this year he has faced LHP's 126 out of his 346 AB's, over 36% of the time. For example, CLee has faced LHP's only 114 times out of 464 AB's, less than 25% of total AB's).

SoxxoS
08-25-2004, 06:02 PM
I didn't. He's having his best year so far. there's nothing that says his power numbers or OBP won't improve, but I think you're only setting yourself up for disappointment if you think he's going to be a .310+ hitter in the future when he has to face RHP's almost 80% of the time. (this year he has faced LHP's 126 out of his 346 AB's, over 36% of the time. For example, CLee has faced LHP's only 114 times out of 464 AB's, less than 25% of total AB's).
Doesn't being a Sox fan in general already set you up for disappointment?

Randar68
08-25-2004, 06:05 PM
Doesn't being a Sox fan in general already set you up for disappointment?
Yeah, then why add more ludicrous expectations to the ones that already are bound to be crushed?

balke
08-25-2004, 06:09 PM
I am a proponent of Rowand and am one of the few irrational ones that argued often with Randar, but Rowand does not belong in that group. Aaron has the ability to be a nice player and one that helps a team win, but he is not, nor will not be an elite player. Let's not get carried away.He seems to fit nicely in that group, that's why I picked those players and their #'s. Did you look down the list? :rolleyes: Looks pretty elite to me this season.

Just as Rando never said he won't have a better year, I'm not saying he won't have worse years. But I definitely think he'll have better years. As a matter of fact, I think Next season is a good start. He has a great swing, and great tools all around.

Now compare the players in that list that had 2300 (combined Major and Minor League) at bats and had their first full season at the age of 26 (he'll be 27 in four days) and see how things shake out........ you mean none of the above fit that category???? shocker!
Can I list Frank's #'s coming off the bench and pinch hitting... or should I go through these all-stars #'s and show you how they did coming into the game in the 7th, or starting every 3 games or so...

And further, it could be argued some players on that list never had an overall year as good as A-Row will end up having. (PK C-Lee Hunter) pending on what stats you value.

batmanZoSo
08-25-2004, 06:44 PM
Yeah, then why add more ludicrous expectations to the ones that already are bound to be crushed?
Ha. For that matter, why get out of bed?

Randar68
08-25-2004, 06:50 PM
Ha. For that matter, why get out of bed?
You don't have to be an eternal optimist and a sky-is-blue, ignorant-to-reality type of person to live your life. Just an FYI, there's this thing called reality, and you can actually live in it. It has it's ups and downs already without falsely adding all kind of built-in disappointments for no reason.

idseer
08-25-2004, 06:52 PM
When people like "balke" make posts like that, you see how the rhetoric escalates. When people go so over-the-top out of their gourd, you have to stoop to the other extreme to try to pull tham back to the middle. It all amounts to a lot of :thud:i agree that comparisons to established stars is not very useful here. i'm sure some lousy players may have 1st year totals that compare well (great example is walt dropo), but i disagree that you need to "stoop to the other extreme to try to pull them back to the middle". i think your 'rhetoric' was just as bad in the other direction and maybe worse at one point.
i have no illusions about aaron becoming a great star (not that it's impossible ... there are precedents). i do feel that he can be a solid center (or right) fielder for a bunch of years and a .290 hitter with some pop playing every day. that's all i ever really expected of him. i will admit he is currently exceeding my expectations.

so! ... can we now consider you a foc? :?: :smile:

batmanZoSo
08-25-2004, 06:54 PM
You don't have to be an eternal optimist and a sky-is-blue, ignorant-to-reality type of person to live your life (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=622,28180399,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,1). Just an FYI, there's this thing called reality, and you can actually live in it. It has it's ups and downs already without falsely adding all kind of built-in disappointments for no reason.
See, I didn't know that.

MRKARNO
08-25-2004, 07:12 PM
Yep. I've been extremely impressed that he's been able to correct some of the things that have dogged him for not just a year or a few months, but his entire career up to this point. I've been very happy with his defense since about early July.

His hitting has been above and beyond what any rational person could have possibly predicted, and although he isn't going to be a leadoff hitter, he's definitely been a valuable player and been one of only a couple second-half performers.

Here's to you Rowand, for turning hard-work into results, I didn't think you could do it. Thank you for proving me wrong.
I never thought I'd see this! :D:

And to anyone who calls this a career year for Rowand, I guess you should be saying the same about the Cleveland group (Hafner, Martinez, Blake, etc.) because they're all doing the same thing at about the same age.

While I don't know if Rowand can jump into the elite level of hitters in the ML and I think unless he gains a great batters eye out of nowhere that this wont happen, I do think that he is already among the elite centerfielders in baseball. Rowand is number 1 in the AL in VORP at his position. There are two centerfielders who are clearly above him this year and they are Edmonds and Beltran. Rowand's potential over the course of a year is probably a 2003 Vernon Wells type of year with 45-50 doubles, 30-35 homers and a similar average to what he has now (.310-320ish)

batmanZoSo
08-25-2004, 07:20 PM
I never thought I'd see this! :D:

And to anyone who calls this a career (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=502,28180399,whitesoxinteractiv e.com,0) year for Rowand, I guess you should be saying the same about the Cleveland group (Hafner, Martinez, Blake, etc.) because they're all doing the same thing at about the same age.

While I don't know if Rowand can jump into the elite level of hitters in the ML and I think unless he gains a great batters eye out of nowhere that this wont happen, I do think that he is already among the elite centerfielders in baseball. Rowand is number 1 in the AL in VORP at his position. There are two centerfielders who are clearly above him this year and they are Edmonds and Beltran. Rowand's potential over the course of a year is probably a 2003 Vernon Wells type of year with 45-50 doubles, 30-35 homers and a similar average to what he has now (.310-320ish)
I wouldn't go that far. I think his best year is basically what he's having right now, only you stretch it out over an entire year. Which, if you did that, approximating for slumps and such, it would be like .300 27 88 with 44 two- baggers. And I'm not saying this is a career year, but it's pretty representative of what he's ultimately capable of...and he can repeat it. He doesn't have any superior tools that stand out that would make you believe he can become a flat out stud, but a major asset at the center field position, definitely.

SOXSINCE'70
08-25-2004, 07:37 PM
I knew Rowand could put up similar numbers if he got enough AB's.I wanted him as starting CF as early as 2002.But KW signed Lofton,then Rowand got hurt after the 2002 season.He was not the same in '03.Glad he's back and hitting.:D:

A. Cavatica
08-25-2004, 08:13 PM
I wonder if he is still running those bad routes??????
Yeah, he keeps running from home to first and home to first to second.

A. Cavatica
08-25-2004, 08:16 PM
Aaron Rowand's First full season stats vs. some familar all-stars and random Outfielders first full season stats.
Balke, the comparison's worthless unless you also list their ages when they had their first full seasons. Rowand's older than most of those, ergo his career track should fall considerably short.

balke
08-25-2004, 08:38 PM
Balke, the comparison's worthless unless you also list their ages when they had their first full seasons. Rowand's older than most of those, ergo his career track should fall considerably short.Sammy Slowsa sucked til he was 25-26, and he played 5 years in the bigs prior

My #'s aren't an age relation, they are a measure of a players first year in a starting role in major league baseball. It's not like we know how old players are anymore anyhow (*cough cough* pujols *cough cough* Jeter).

I don't think they are worthless. I can find more players with Rowand's #'s in their first year that exceeded or hovered there through their careers, then you will find Players that reached that in the first year, and went to crap. (especially if you take out injury cases)

Ergo, visa vi... I'm sorry sox fans, we more than likely have another really good player on the team :(:

Randar68
08-25-2004, 08:54 PM
Sammy Slowsa sucked til he was 25-26, and he played 5 years in the bigs prior

My #'s aren't an age relation, they are a measure of a players first year in a starting role in major league baseball. It's not like we know how old players are anymore anyhow (*cough cough* pujols *cough cough* Jeter).

I don't think they are worthless. I can find more players with Rowand's #'s in their first year that exceeded or hovered there through their careers, then you will find Players that reached that in the first year, and went to crap. (especially if you take out injury cases)

Ergo, visa vi... I'm sorry sox fans, we more than likely have another really good player on the team :(:Over.
The.
top.

rowand's had 582 aB's coming into this season. I'd venture to say none of thosoe other players had 200 going into their 'first seasons'

PS, Sosa found something called STEROIDS, oddly coinciding with his rise to fame.

balke
08-25-2004, 09:25 PM
PS, Sosa found something called STEROIDS, oddly coinciding with his rise to fame.
NUH UH!! Sammy lubba da fans, he don't know how cork got in there. Wasa stare-oid?

Man do I really have to do this again?

A-Row 582 AB Hit like : .270 17HR 29 2B

A-rod had 195 AB hit like: .225 5 HR 6 2B
C-lee had 492 did welll w/: .293, 16 HR 32 2B
Beltre had 195... and hit: .215 7HR 9 2B
Hunter had +700 hit: .260 12HR 32 2B
Bonds had 413 hit: .223 16 HR 262B 36SB
Konerko had 441 hit: .210 14HR 8 2B


Again... He's elite now. All the makings of for the future. Regardless of age, and experience (which helps him I might add). He's good.. I'm sorry to have to tell ya.

Randar68
08-25-2004, 09:43 PM
Again... He's elite now. All the makings of for the future. Regardless of age, and experience (which helps him I might add). He's good.. I'm sorry to have to tell ya.it's always good to see players' families posting. Yes, he's been good. But you're completely getting carried away, sorry to tell ya (when you're comparing to players breaking into the league at 18-22 years old and saying an almost 27 year old is on par)

:whoflungpoo

Aidan
08-25-2004, 09:50 PM
it's always good to see players' families posting. Yes, he's been good. But you're completely getting carried away, sorry to tell ya (when you're comparing to players breaking into the league at 18-22 years old and saying an almost 27 year old is on par)Aren't you the same guy that wants to see more of Joe Borchard? :rolleyes:

Randar68
08-25-2004, 09:52 PM
Aren't you the same guy that wants to see more of Joe Borchard? :rolleyes:
Sorry, if you can find me a better time to give him a shot than this last month of a lost season, I'd like to see it.

Aren't you the same guy who has trouble putting a coherent thought in a post?

idseer
08-25-2004, 09:55 PM
it's always good to see players' families posting. Yes, he's been good. But you're completely getting carried away, sorry to tell ya (when you're comparing to players breaking into the league at 18-22 years old and saying an almost 27 year old is on par)

:whoflungpoo
actually griffey was 19 and the rest were 22 to 24. and rowand was 24 when he had the accident that impeaded his progress and is 26 now.
but don't let a few facts stand in your way.

Randar68
08-25-2004, 09:57 PM
actually griffey was 19 and the rest were 22 to 24. and rowand was 24 when he had the accident that impeaded his progress and is 26 now.
but don't let a few facts stand in your way.
he turns 27 in 4 days. Then again, I'm not the moron comparing Thomas, Griffey and aRod's first years to Aaron Rowand's 4th (and advertising it as first) as a 26-27 year old.

Recockulous.

idseer
08-25-2004, 10:09 PM
he turns 27 in 4 days. Then again, I'm not the moron comparing Thomas, Griffey and aRod's first years to Aaron Rowand's 4th (and advertising it as first) as a 26-27 year old.

Recockulous.
well he spent most of the year as a 26 year old. i guess we'd have to figure to the day for all the others too if we wish to get that picky about it. i think it's fair to consider this his first full year where he wasn't jerked around all 3 outfiled positions and will end up with 450 ab's or so. several of the other players mentioned didn't play much their first years either so i was matching first years they played regularly. i was just pointing out your tendancy to exaggerate the other way. i think you lose some credibility doing that.

it is a dumb comparison anyway. every player reaches their peak at different points so it says NOTHING about what rowand will do in the future. i am satisfied that he'll continue to do well and that's all i need.
comparisons to frank thomas or barry bonds are ignorant.

Randar68
08-25-2004, 10:16 PM
well he spent most of the year as a 26 year old. i guess we'd have to figure to the day for all the others too if we wish to get that picky about it. i think it's fair to consider this his first full year where he wasn't jerked around all 3 outfiled positions and will end up with 450 ab's or so. several of the other players mentioned didn't play much their first years either so i was matching first years they played regularly. i was just pointing out your tendancy to exaggerate the other way. i think you lose some credibility doing that.Those players were predominantly late-season call-ups and carried that right into their next seasons. it's never been Aaron's offense that has consistently kept him on the bench, it's been his defense, which he has vastly improved on, thankfully. on top of that, he's having a better than-expected season at the plate. he had 350 AB's in 2002, what's a "full-season?"

This whole thing is utterly ridiculous rhetoric and unreasonable comparisons.


it is a dumb comparison anyway. every player reaches their peak at different points so it says NOTHING about what rowand will do in the future. i am satisfied that he'll continue to do well and that's all i need.
comparisons to frank thomas or barry bonds are ignorant.
That's my only point in this thread aftetr I clearly came out and admitted that Rowand has proved me wrong this year. You give people an inch and they take a mile.

idseer
08-25-2004, 10:31 PM
Those players were predominantly late-season call-ups and carried that right into their next seasons. it's never been Aaron's offense that has consistently kept him on the bench, it's been his defense, which he has vastly improved on, thankfully. on top of that, he's having a better than-expected season at the plate. he had 350 AB's in 2002, what's a "full-season?"

This whole thing is utterly ridiculous rhetoric and unreasonable comparisons.actually 302 ab's. to me that's half season and i remember very well how he was used. he'd play a game then sit over and over while being used in all 3 outfield positions (granted, mostly center).
i think what many here have been saying is that's no way to find consistancy. i imagine he was used as a fill in because jm felt he wasn't starter material. admittedly he did not come from the minors with high credentials as did the other players mentioned. but that is exactly why he needed to play regularly. he needed that time to build his game (lacking in the natural skills the others had) in a regular environment.

i felt all along he had the drive to do what he's doing now. that's also why i feel good about his future. he KNOWS he has to work at his game to stay here. he'll be better with less talent than many others who have the natural abilities but don't work as hard.
someone a week or so ago brought up a great example of this ... nelson fox.
fox was never an outstanding hitter. but he made himself a very good consistant hitter and he made himself an outstanding fielder. i can see something similar happening with aaron.

gosox41
08-25-2004, 11:02 PM
Over.


PS, Sosa found something called STEROIDS, oddly coinciding with his rise to fame.
If only we can prove it.


Bob

Rex Hudler
08-25-2004, 11:24 PM
actually 302 ab's. to me that's half season and i remember very well how he was used. he'd play a game then sit over and over while being used in all 3 outfield positions (granted, mostly center).
i think what many here have been saying is that's no way to find consistancy. i imagine he was used as a fill in because jm felt he wasn't starter material. admittedly he did not come from the minors with high credentials as did the other players mentioned. but that is exactly why he needed to play regularly. he needed that time to build his game (lacking in the natural skills the others had) in a regular environment.

i felt all along he had the drive to do what he's doing now. that's also why i feel good about his future. he KNOWS he has to work at his game to stay here. he'll be better with less talent than many others who have the natural abilities but don't work as hard.
someone a week or so ago brought up a great example of this ... nelson fox.
fox was never an outstanding hitter. but he made himself a very good consistant hitter and he made himself an outstanding fielder. i can see something similar happening with aaron.
I too felt all along Aaron would become a good everyday player....... I too think the rationale of comparing him to Griffey, ARod, etc. as a matter of predicting what he could/will be is LUDICROUS. Why can't we just be happy we have a guy that has developed into a nice player and not have to try and find BS comparisons to suggest he is about ready to join the game's elite players?

It';s funny....... as big of a difference randar and I have had in evaluating Rowand, we agree completely here.... just enjoy the moment and try not to brainwash yourself with unrealistic expectations.

batmanZoSo
08-25-2004, 11:27 PM
Those players were predominantly late-season call-ups and carried that right into their next seasons. it's never been Aaron's offense that has consistently kept him on the bench, it's been his defense, which he has vastly improved on, thankfully. on top of that, he's having a better than-expected season at the plate. he had 350 AB's in 2002, what's a "full-season?"

This whole thing is utterly ridiculous rhetoric and unreasonable comparisons.


That's my only point in this thread aftetr I clearly came out and admitted that Rowand has proved me wrong this year. You give people an inch and they take a mile.
I totally disagree with that. Defense may have been your problem with him and not without reason, but since when do you have to throw leather to get a spot in the Sox lineup? The guy didn't hit a thing in April or May this year, that's what kept him out.

Randar68
08-25-2004, 11:37 PM
It';s funny....... as big of a difference randar and I have had in evaluating Rowand, we agree completely here.... just enjoy the moment and try not to brainwash yourself with unrealistic expectations.In reality, my only point in the beginning was that people being over-the-top in their expectations based on some here-and-there stat chosing and ignoring minor league history, needed to realize a few things:

1) He had yet to prove himself a capable CF'er (an area where he's been tremendously improved this last 3 months and a reason he was benched earlier this year and in the past)
2) He hasn't drawn walks at all in his MLB time save a few AB's at the end of 2001 that were inconsistent with his minor league history (something he still struggles with greatly, particularly vs RH'ers.)
3) He hadn't shown improvement in his opportunities that he had squandered twice before until these last 3 months, something we all hope he can continue.

My expectations were somewhere in the .265 to .280 range without many walks and showing occassional power. Again, I could live with that if he could have played Singleton-like defense, and he's proved me wrong by improving in all those areas. Again, kudos to him.

Randar68
08-25-2004, 11:40 PM
I totally disagree with that. Defense may have been your problem with him and not without reason, but since when do you have to throw leather to get a spot in the Sox lineup? The guy didn't hit a thing in April or May this year, that's what kept him out.
Early this year he was terrible in the field and Ozzie even said in pre-game show that defense was the reason he wasn't playing every day. Between Maggs and Carlos, you have GOT to have someone who covers ground and throws to the right bases, cut-off men, and makes every possible play. that was not something Rowand was doing the first 2 months and sitting may have been that wake-up call.

balke
08-26-2004, 02:57 AM
I too felt all along Aaron would become a good everyday player....... I too think the rationale of comparing him to Griffey, ARod, etc. as a matter of predicting what he could/will be is LUDICROUS.
OR a nice rebuttle to people thinking A-row is tapped out... having a career year :wink:

Noone is saying he is Thomas Bonds or Griffey. I'm saying there's potential to at least be a PK or Clee. Because, basically he's already done that.
How many lead off doubles, or big homers has this guy had lately? seems like every game now he's doing SOMEthing right. That's what a star does.



That's my only point in this thread aftetr I clearly came out and admitted that Rowand has proved me wrong this year. You give people an inch and they take a mile.
I forgot this thread was about YOU, heheh. If you meant my post, no hard feelings, wasn't trying to attack you with my numbers. Just throwing it out there to the single naysayer post of Rowand, which was Homefish I believe. I found it interesting, Rowand's got potential, lots of it.