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CWWTWS1
08-23-2004, 10:52 PM
:jerry (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"I told you it was not my fault. Let me tell you, golfing is much more fun then managing those losers"!

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 10:56 PM
:jerry (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"I told you it was not my fault. Let me tell you, golfing is much more fun then managing those losers"!
Sigh...

Manuel did it with everyone healthy, Ozzie did it without Frank and Maggs. The end.

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 10:59 PM
Sigh...

Manuel did it with everyone healthy, Ozzie did it without Frank and Maggs. The end.

Not quite true. Manuel kept this team going - sort of - when Thomas went down with a torn triceps muscle. They never imploded like this team is doing.

I wasn't in love with Manuel, that's for sure, but I always thought Guillen was a HUGE mistake. They started well enough this year, but it's starting to look like he's spinning out of control.

Nard
08-23-2004, 11:02 PM
Ozzie would make a great bench coach.

JB98
08-23-2004, 11:07 PM
Not quite true. Manuel kept this team going - sort of - when Thomas went down with a torn triceps muscle. They never imploded like this team is doing.
I disagree. At one point in 2001, our record was 13-29. They imploded just like this team.

Tragg
08-23-2004, 11:08 PM
They're both lousy managers.

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 11:12 PM
I disagree. At one point in 2001, our record was 13-29. They imploded just like this team.

But they picked themselves up and kind of got back into the race. A little credit has to go to Manuel that year because the team could have mailed it in from May on - but they didn't. This year's team has all the look of a team that has quit on the season.

CWWTWS1
08-23-2004, 11:21 PM
The sooner people realize that 2000 was a fluke, the better off things will be. This team quit tonight, not against Boston, but tonight for sure. It's not Guillen's fault, nor was it Manuel's. My point is that many thought Manuel was the problem, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Ozzie Guillen has made more boneheaded moves this year then I ever remember Manuel making in the last two years. Manuel's fatal blunder last year was letting Cotts get shelled in Yankee stadium. Ozzie has made so many bad moves this year I have honestly lost track.

ma_deuce
08-24-2004, 12:34 AM
They're both lousy managers.
One good year did not make Manuel a great coach. Nor should one bad year make Ozzie a bad one. Lets hold off burning him at the stake until we have something to compare this year to.

OurBitchinMinny
08-24-2004, 12:36 AM
Manuel was not what was wrong and ozzie was not whats wrong. Ozzie was not the most qualified canidate, but hindsight is 20/20. Both are more suited to be bench coaches. The problem with this team is its heart. Its guys like garland and valentin and others who are full of excuses. You cant just blame a manager.

OurBitchinMinny
08-24-2004, 12:39 AM
One good year did not make Manuel a great coach. Nor should one bad year make Ozzie a bad one. Lets hold off burning him at the stake until we have something to compare this year to.
can that same logic be applied to rowand or shingo...or is it different in their cases. Some people are too eager to believe these two are for real. They maybe, but theyve only had one good year. shingo will get figured out. rowand finally looks like the player but hes only been good for this year (not including april and may when he sucked) and he still sucks w/ RISP.

Mohoney
08-24-2004, 12:45 AM
When was the last time we have seen a QUALITY starting rotation, TOP TO BOTTOM, wearing Sox pinstripes? 1993?

Our problem is NOT our manager or our offense. It is our PITCHING! We have NO PITCHING DEPTH!

You CANNOT compete with only 3 quality starters and only 3 quality relievers. You need a viable 4th option out of the bullpen, and for God's sake, PLEASE declare the Jon Garland experiment a failure, PLEASE end the 5th starter merry-go-round, and get two starters with stones.

I could live with this team losing, if they had 25 absolute warriors out there. Not absolute putzes like Judy, Cotts, Crede, and Borchard.

OurBitchinMinny
08-24-2004, 12:46 AM
I think the list of putzes is longer than that. All but 4 or 5 of them are embarrassments

BarbG
08-24-2004, 02:31 AM
Agreed.

Valentin definitely belongs on the putz list.

A manager can only do so much. They're supposed to know how to pitch, catch, throw and hit BEFORE they get to the Majors!

habibharu
08-24-2004, 02:37 AM
how can everone be so down on OG? just wait till he gets his type of players, he is gonna be a VERY good manager!

DumpJerry
08-24-2004, 05:33 PM
how can everone be so down on OG? just wait till he gets his type of players, he is gonna be a VERY good manager!In total agreement.

dickallen15
08-24-2004, 05:42 PM
Sigh...

Manuel did it with everyone healthy, Ozzie did it without Frank and Maggs. The end.Manuel won a divison with less than half the payroll the team has now. The next year, his #1 starter went down, and Frank only played about 20 games. He still finished above .500 with all the pitchers from the previous year hurt. 2002 brought him Todd Ritchie. He sucked and got hurt. 2003 he won 86 games, with Buerhle starting out 2-10. He deserved to get canned, but he managed with injuries. And at no time during the Jerry Manuel regime did he have Joe Borchard pinch hit for his hottest hitter, like Ozzie did the other night.

batmanZoSo
08-24-2004, 07:32 PM
But they picked themselves up and kind of got back into the race. A little credit has to go to Manuel that year because the team could have mailed it in from May on - but they didn't. This year's team has all the look of a team that has quit on the season.
The 2001 team, like this team, had too much talent to play 13-29 ball the whole way. Manuel sucked ever since 2000. I don't hold 01 against him, even though I easily could. For one, they dug their death hole in April when everyone was healthy. He had them lagging and complacent out of the gate. But that aside and forgiven, how do you explain 02 and 03 for Manuel? Especially last year, I mean we had everything going for us and he just found a way. Ozzie wouldn't have let that happen. He's not a great manager, he's not very good at managing the bullpen or making pinch hit decisions, but he's a far better leader than Manuel. Actually, Manuel wasn't a leader at all. He was just there.

batmanZoSo
08-24-2004, 07:34 PM
Manuel won a divison with less than half the payroll the team has now. The next year, his #1 starter went down, and Frank only played about 20 games. He still finished above .500 with all the pitchers from the previous year hurt. 2002 brought him Todd Ritchie. He sucked and got hurt. 2003 he won 86 games, with Buerhle starting out 2-10. He deserved to get canned, but he managed with injuries. And at no time during the Jerry Manuel regime did he have Joe Borchard pinch hit for his hottest hitter, like Ozzie did the other night.
Let me reiterate that the 01 season was lost in April before anyone got hurt. I wasn't going to hold that year against him, but I think I will now.

Manuel had plenty of talent to do it in 02 and 03. Buehrle's 2-10 start was partly Manuel's fault anyway. He wasn't 2-10 bad during that stretch, that's for sure. He never got a lick of support from the hitters when he needed it and that was the hallmark of the Manuel era--lack of clutch hitting. The guys were dead under him.

If we're gonna base things on single moves, Ozzie never put in Jose Paniagua to give the Twins new life and virtually catapult them the rest of the season.

SpartanSoxFan
08-24-2004, 11:17 PM
The sooner people realize that 2000 was a fluke, the better off things will be. This team quit tonight, not against Boston, but tonight for sure. It's not Guillen's fault, nor was it Manuel's. My point is that many thought Manuel was the problem, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Ozzie Guillen has made more boneheaded moves this year then I ever remember Manuel making in the last two years. Manuel's fatal blunder last year was letting Cotts get shelled in Yankee stadium. Ozzie has made so many bad moves this year I have honestly lost track.
How can you say that 2000 was a fluke? A fluke that the team won despite being managed by Manuel or that winning the devision with those players was a fluke in itself? If you agree with the latter I would have to disagree. That team had a lot of talent.

thepaulbowski
08-25-2004, 06:07 PM
How can you say that 2000 was a fluke? A fluke that the team won despite being managed by Manuel or that winning the devision with those players was a fluke in itself? If you agree with the latter I would have to disagree. That team had a lot of talent.
How many starters on that pitching staff are still in the majors? Sirotka, no. Parque, no. Baldwin, no. Too many people had career years. If it wasn't a fluke how come the Sox haven't been back to the playoffs? The Sox backed into the playoffs after playing around .500 back the last few months of the year and didn't have a pulse in the playoffs. Time has shown that the season was a fluke.