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View Full Version : *Official* Bring out your Dead postgame thread.


Daver
08-23-2004, 08:37 PM
Have at it.

SomebodyToldMe
08-23-2004, 08:40 PM
Go Giants.

MRKARNO
08-23-2004, 08:41 PM
A great offensive performance by the White Sox tonight. I'm sure Freddy Garcia loves seeing this kind of offensive performances from his new team. Very unlike the Seattle offense he left behind.

balboner
08-23-2004, 08:41 PM
Worst example of Corpseball I can remember. Ozzie should be ashamed of this team.

TomParrish79
08-23-2004, 08:44 PM
Could be worse

JRIG
08-23-2004, 08:47 PM
Worst example of Corpseball I can remember. Ozzie should be ashamed of this team.
Ozzie is still trying to figure out exactly when to take out his starting pitchers.

Here's Roberto Alomar's line with the Sox:

.163/.159/.233

Truly a man who "knows how to play the game the right way" and "does all the little things to help his team win." Plus, he knows how to bunt for an out as well!

SoxxoS
08-23-2004, 08:50 PM
Ozzie is still trying to figure out exactly when to take out his starting pitchers.

Here's Roberto Alomar's line with the Sox:

.163/.159/.233

Truly a man who "knows how to play the game the right way" and "does all the little things to help his team win." Plus, he knows how to bunt for an out as well!
He decided to take batting tips from Borchard.

Borchard/Crede/Harris/Alomar and Valentin

The OPB is staggering.

habibharu
08-23-2004, 08:52 PM
not surprising at all. THIS is the jose contreras i know

MRKARNO
08-23-2004, 08:54 PM
not surprising at all. THIS is the jose contreras i know
Because of course it's Contreras's fault that Jose Valentin tripping and falling led to 2 earned runs which should not have been earned.

Dick Allen
08-23-2004, 09:00 PM
Too bad these weenies can't be docked a day's pay for games like tonight.

PaulDrake
08-23-2004, 09:00 PM
not surprising at all. THIS is the jose contreras i know It's the Jose I know too. I never understood all the euphoria over acquiring Contreras. A couple of decent starts does not make him an ace. This team has so many problems and weaknesses. Starting pitching is just one of many.

losingugly2004
08-23-2004, 09:01 PM
Because of course it's Contreras's fault that Jose Valentin tripping and falling led to 2 earned runs which should not have been earned.Not to mention that disappearing rabbit in the hat trick Valentin did on that play at the plate which he was given an error on. Also, how fitting was it to yet again to see Borchard strike out to end a game? Holy crap! Pass me some Tylenol!

PaulDrake
08-23-2004, 09:04 PM
Because of course it's Contreras's fault that Jose Valentin tripping and falling led to 2 earned runs which should not have been earned. Even if Jose looked like an Olympic gymnast out there tonite that was a wretched start by Contreras. Everybody is stinking up the joint lately even our vaunted top three starters.

jackbrohamer
08-23-2004, 09:05 PM
It's almost impossible for me to watch Sox games these days. What a lifeless bunch of mopes.

Tragg
08-23-2004, 09:08 PM
Pitiful, embarassing- what's the proper adjective?

Looks like a 4th place finish

And I do believe it's a lot deeper than no maggs and no frank

dcb33
08-23-2004, 09:08 PM
It's a good thing we have Jon Garland pitching for us tomorrow. He'll stop this losing streak for sure...Detroit is now only 2 game behind us in the standings....

Frankfan4life
08-23-2004, 09:13 PM
This team stinks. That's all I have to say.

Brian26
08-23-2004, 09:18 PM
I've never seen the wheels come off a team so quickly in my life.

Stick a fork in us. 9 out after tonight? We're done.

JRIG
08-23-2004, 09:20 PM
Stick a fork in us. 9 out after tonight? We're done.Interesting. Do you think the sun will also rise in the east tomorrow?:)

Brian26
08-23-2004, 09:23 PM
Interesting. Do you think the sun will also rise in the east tomorrow?:)
I was being overly positive up until this weekend. I figured we had an outside shot if we could stay within 4 or 5. We took 2 of 3 in Beantown and had been 4 out all of last week. We probably wouldn't have gone far in the playoffs, but it would have been a hell of an accomplishment to win the division without Frank or Mags. Those hopes are gone. This team's heart, which they showed a lot of even after the Twins series, is now officially ripped out.

rwcescato
08-23-2004, 09:23 PM
Because of course it's Contreras's fault that Jose Valentin tripping and falling led to 2 earned runs which should not have been earned.
When Valetin fell I knew the flood gates were about to open. That play sumizes our whole season and especially these last 6-8 weeks of play.
When do pitchers and catchers report.
Rich

mike squires
08-23-2004, 09:24 PM
Usually I'm pissed off when the game is on WCIU, tonight I could have cared less. I may not watch another game this year in its' entirety.

losingugly2004
08-23-2004, 09:26 PM
Pitiful, embarassing- what's the proper adjective?

Looks like a 4th place finish

And I do believe it's a lot deeper than no maggs and no frank
Agreed. It is much deeper than no maggs and frank. Consider yet again the fact that the Sox make Bonderman a > 6.00 ERA pitcher look like a Cy Young award candidate.This has been happening too much this year.

Brian26
08-23-2004, 09:28 PM
Agreed. It is much deeper than no maggs and frank. Consider yet again the fact that the Sox make Bonderman a > 6.00 ERA pitcher look like a Cy Young award candidate.This has been happening too much this year.
It's been happening too much since April 2001. Yet, this team has had the talent to win the division 5 years in a row. It just doesn't add up.

MRKARNO
08-23-2004, 09:28 PM
Even if Jose looked like an Olympic gymnast out there tonite that was a wretched start by Contreras. Everybody is stinking up the joint lately even our vaunted top three starters.
There's no question he wasn't very good tonight as the 7 walks show, but he should of had only 3 earned runs and 5 IP and 3 ER isn't the worst thing in the world.

greenpeach
08-23-2004, 09:31 PM
I'd rather watch a body being embalmed by a mortician then watch these guys play corpseball anymore.

Good thing, we've got that easy second half schedule or else I'd be a little concerned.

jackbrohamer
08-23-2004, 09:35 PM
I've never seen the wheels come off a team so quickly in my life.

Not much consolation, but it fell apart pretty fast for the Jndians; 1 game of first last Sunday morning, 7 out today.

losingugly2004
08-23-2004, 09:35 PM
It's been happening too much since April 2001. Yet, this team has had the talent to win the division 5 years in a row. It just doesn't add up.

Are the powers that be playing some kind of sick joke on all of us White Sox Fans?

MikeW
08-23-2004, 09:38 PM
Boy, do I feel like an idiot. Just this past Friday I was saying that we still had a chance and that the Twins would fold. I apologize to everyone.

bc2k
08-23-2004, 09:47 PM
Go Giants.
Last night John Kruk said he thinks the NL Wildcard will go to the Cubs because of their superior pitching and home schedule down the stretch.

greenpeach
08-23-2004, 09:53 PM
Last night John Kruk said he thinks the NL Wildcard will go to the Cubs because of their superior pitching and home schedule down the stretch.
Go Cubs.....Go Red Sox

Iguana775
08-23-2004, 09:54 PM
Have at it.
Daver, you need a pic from Monty Pythons holy grail where they are going around collecting the dead. lol. :)

losingugly2004
08-23-2004, 09:55 PM
Perhaps my ears were deceiving me, but, did anyone else hear the Hawk say some of these players should "tighten their sphincter's" in regards to a conversation he was having with DJ about player accountability?

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 09:56 PM
It's streaks like this that test Ozzie Guillen's mettle as a manager. So far he's getting an "F".

losingugly2004
08-23-2004, 10:01 PM
It's streaks like this that test Ozzie Guillen's mettle as a manager. So far he's getting an "F".
It's not Ozzie's fault. He must be preoccupied with choosing a new tile for the dugout because he is always looking at the dugout floor.

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 10:06 PM
It's not Ozzie's fault. He must be preoccupied with choosing a new tile for the dugout because he is always looking at the dugout floor.

An error on the field by Valentin is not Guillen's fault, nor are seven walks by Contreras - on that there can be no doubt. That being said, it's the manager's primary responsibility to navigate through the rough spots that every year has by keeping his players believing and keeping his players playing. It's absolutely an art. Guillen is totally flunking out in this aspect. Thomas and Ordonez go down and there can be no doubt the road just got rougher - but this team is showing every sign of rolling over and dying. That should never happen.

Lip Man 1
08-23-2004, 10:06 PM
Just a few days ago some posters were saying this team hadn't given up....sure could have fooled me.

Gang it's deeper then losing Frank and Maggs.

Every year since 2001 they had major holes, holes that can't even come close to being filled with the payroll budget as it stands now. Like it or not, it's 'small ball' for next season, I don't think ANYBODY can say that Ozzie and Kenny are going to permit this to go on. They are going to make changes. It may result in making things worse but hey it's not like they've accomplished anything since 2001 anyway and they'll get a high draft pick.

Lip

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 10:08 PM
Just a few days ago some posters were saying this team hadn't given up....sure could have fooled me.

Gang it's deeper then losing Frank and Maggs.

Every year since 2001 they had major holes, holes that can't even come close to being filled with the payroll budget as it stands now. Like it or not, it's 'small ball' for next season, I don't think ANYBODY can say that Ozzie and Kenny are going to permit this to go on. They are going to make changes. It may result in making things worse but hey it's not like they've accomplished anything since 2001 anyway and they'll get a high draft pick.

Lip

Lip - I've got to be honest with you. If Guillen and Williams are part of the future, this team may struggle for a long while.

dcb33
08-23-2004, 10:16 PM
It's streaks like this that test Ozzie Guillen's mettle as a manager. So far he's getting an "F".
So Ozzie gets an F? Didn't everyone give Manuel an F too?

Brian26
08-23-2004, 10:21 PM
Every year since 2001 they had major holes, holes that can't even come close to being filled with the payroll budget as it stands now.
Lip always has to take this thing back to a knock on ownership. The 2003 team had enough talent to get to the World Series. This team just didn't play up to its potential.

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 10:24 PM
So Ozzie gets an F? Didn't everyone give Manuel an F too?

I always thought Manuel was more of a "C-" type of manager. Mediocre at best, but not a disaster.

Daver
08-23-2004, 10:28 PM
Daver, you need a pic from Monty Pythons holy grail where they are going around collecting the dead. lol. :)
It's a mere flesh wound.

Come back and fight!

LASOXFAN
08-23-2004, 10:28 PM
Lip - I've got to be honest with you. If Guillen and Williams are part of the future, this team may struggle for a long while.
Absolutely right.

:KW "Fire me now!"

whitesoxwilkes
08-23-2004, 10:32 PM
Daver, you need a pic from Monty Pythons holy grail where they are going around collecting the dead. lol. :)I feeeeeeel happy...I think I'll go for a walk.

Tonight marks night one of my hiatus from this club and its day to day blunders. Aside from games I have the TBGR for and the 6 games left on my season package, I'm taking a break.

Day One: Went and played tennis. Went to bar for pints and a burger, watched Olympics while trying to block out the Chubs game being shown on 8 out of the 10 TVs.

SomebodyToldMe
08-23-2004, 10:35 PM
I can't wait till the offseason.

Let the soap opera begin.

JB98
08-23-2004, 10:36 PM
I don't know what everyone is so upset about. Borchard led off the third with a single, and Harris successfully sacrificed him over to second. You all finally got your freakin' small ball.

3Peater
08-23-2004, 10:39 PM
Wow, 14 k's by this lineup of .260/.270 hitters(Lee/Rowand excused, living in .300 land).


Did the Sox mail this one in by UPS, Fed Ex or Priority Mail?

If Maggs isn't back next year, does Rowand move to RF when Beltran signs (HAH!!)??

KW, nice deal for Everett; now who's gonna take on that contract? Alomar? You mean, the scrubs dumped weren't any better? What a joke?

Not a great outing from Contreras, but at least it's better than Esteban LOSERLoaiza.

What has happened to the Sox?? This is PATHETIC!!!!!!!1

dcb33
08-23-2004, 10:41 PM
I don't know what everyone is so upset about. Borchard led off the third with a single, and Harris successfully sacrificed him over to second. You all finally got your freakin' small ball.
Last time I checked, we didn't hit any home runs either.

duke of dorwood
08-23-2004, 10:42 PM
Hope a lot of call ups Sept 1 get significant playing time-let these stiffs sit and watch

JB98
08-23-2004, 10:46 PM
not surprising at all. THIS is the jose contreras i know
This is so typical of your posts. You were just laying in the weeds, waiting for Contreras to have a bad outing so you could pounce. Yes, he is inconsistent. No, he is not an ace. But he's better than Loaiza, and he will be a good #3 or #4 starter for us the rest of this year and next year. His record is 11-6 overall and 3-1 with the Sox. That's pretty good. I'm not going to give up on Contreras because of one bad outing, just as I am not going to declare him a superstar after a good outing.

The real goat tonight was Valentin. He was 0-for-4 with 3Ks and gave away four runs with his looney-tune act at SS. Time to play Uribe for the rest of the year. Maybe DH Valentin against certain right-handed pitchers.

As a side note, why is Robbie Alomar here? He really looks bad at the plate.

JB98
08-23-2004, 10:51 PM
Last time I checked, we didn't hit any home runs either.
That's why we didn't win. Home runs win games. Bunting and giving away outs don't.

3Peater
08-23-2004, 10:55 PM
That's why we didn't win. Home runs win games. Bunting and giving away outs don't.
Look at these numbers for MN:

On the just concluded 5-1 homestand against the Indians and Yankees, the Twins hit .322 with 14 doubles, three triples, nine home runs and outscored their opponents, 45-22. The Twins hit .345 with runners in scoring position.

Tonight, 5 doubles and a triple, and they ripped Kenny Rogers and TX 7-4, only giving up a 3-run dinger in garbage time.

Extra-base hits are fueling the Twins. They were stuck in station-to-station ball for a long time, and now are finding some gaps and the fences. Plus they're now third in the AL in stolen bases. Not so much bunting, but aggressive base running.


Hey OZ: You paying attention??

dcb33
08-23-2004, 11:00 PM
That's why we didn't win. Home runs win games. Bunting and giving away outs don't.It's this kind of thinking that explains why we can't win. What do you want the Sox to do, have C.Lee, Konerko, Uribe, etc. out there swinging at everything trying to kill the ball and striking out when we're already down 4-0? The reason we haven't done jack in the last three years is because this team lives and dies by the home run. That's fine if you want to win 80 games, but if you want to do more than finish in 2nd place your offense is going to need to be more complete than ours is.

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 11:02 PM
Look at these numbers for MN:

On the just concluded 5-1 homestand against the Indians and Yankees, the Twins hit .322 with 14 doubles, three triples, nine home runs and outscored their opponents, 45-22. The Twins hit .345 with runners in scoring position.

Tonight, 5 doubles and a triple, and they ripped Kenny Rogers and TX 7-4, only giving up a 3-run dinger in garbage time.

Extra-base hits are fueling the Twins. They were stuck in station-to-station ball for a long time, and now are finding some gaps and the fences. Plus they're now third in the AL in stolen bases. Not so much bunting, but aggressive base running.


Hey OZ: You paying attention??
It's all about extra base hits--doubles and triples. In 2000, whenever we'd have a guy on first, someone would hit a double and he'd score. Ever since, it's been two singles in a row followed by a double play and a strike out. Durham always hit his fair share of triples and doubles along with his usual 17 homers. He was routinely up there with Alomar in EBH's. We need a few guys with that ability who can also throw some leather.

JB98
08-23-2004, 11:04 PM
Look at these numbers for MN:

On the just concluded 5-1 homestand against the Indians and Yankees, the Twins hit .322 with 14 doubles, three triples, nine home runs and outscored their opponents, 45-22. The Twins hit .345 with runners in scoring position.

Tonight, 5 doubles and a triple, and they ripped Kenny Rogers and TX 7-4, only giving up a 3-run dinger in garbage time.

Extra-base hits are fueling the Twins. They were stuck in station-to-station ball for a long time, and now are finding some gaps and the fences. Plus they're now third in the AL in stolen bases. Not so much bunting, but aggressive base running.


Hey OZ: You paying attention??
Exactly!!!!! The Sox had seven hits tonight, five of them to opposite field. What did it get them? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!! At some point, you have to have somebody come up and bang the damn ball off the wall or over the fence. That's why I've been arguing so strenuously that any attempt to purge the team's power hitters is a short-sighted, foolish overreaction to a losing streak.

dcb33
08-23-2004, 11:09 PM
Exactly!!!!! The Sox had seven hits tonight, five of them to opposite field. What did it get them? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!! At some point, you have to have somebody come up and bang the damn ball off the wall or over the fence. That's why I've been arguing so strenuously that any attempt to purge the team's power hitters is a short-sighted, foolish overreaction to a losing streak.But don't you think part of the reason why they strike out or hit into a double play is becuase they are trying to bang the damn ball off the wall or over the fence? You can't deny that we have about 4 carbon copies of Paul Konerko on this team, and it's been proven time and time again that while hitting a million home runs is an exciting way to win a game 15-0, it's not going to be enough to get it done consistently enough to win a division or have any chance of success at all in the playoffs.

OurBitchinMinny
08-23-2004, 11:15 PM
This team is just an embarrassment to white sox fans everywhere. I have to listen to all these a hole twin fans brag for another winter. Man i hope the viqueens suck. There is not one guy on this team that Im a fan of right now with the exception of carlos lee. All they do is make excuses. Ben Davis said bonderman just dominated and had the best stuff hes seen all year. Ive heard that so often from players on this team its just sick. This team sucks. The only offensive players i want to see back are pk, clee, and rowand...davis too i guess. The rest of them can go to hell for all i care. Joe borchard should be sent to rookie ball. Maybe he can hit .280 there, but I doubt it. They all suck.

JB98
08-23-2004, 11:18 PM
It's this kind of thinking that explains why we can't win. What do you want the Sox to do, have C.Lee, Konerko, Uribe, etc. out there swinging at everything trying to kill the ball and striking out when we're already down 4-0? The reason we haven't done jack in the last three years is because this team lives and dies by the home run. That's fine if you want to win 80 games, but if you want to do more than finish in 2nd place your offense is going to need to be more complete than ours is.
Your missing my point. Of course the offense needs to be more complete. We need to get rid of Harris, Alomar and Valentin and find someone who can set the damn table. I'm really fed up with people blaming our power hitters for this losing streak. C. Lee and Konerko are the two best players we have, and folks are calling for one or both to be traded. It's ridiculous. Without those two guys, we would have been shut out on Sunday too. Lee in particular is being unfairly stereotyped as an all-or-nothing hitter. He's been driving the ball to the opposite field the last few games and has received absolutely no credit for that from WSI posters. Konerko is a dead-pull hitter, but he's still hitting .275. That's fine when you look at the RBI production. He had a piss-poor game tonight, but hey, stuff happens. It would help if someone else would pick up the slack every now and then. If CLee, Konerko and Rowand don't get it done, no one gets it done.

JB98
08-23-2004, 11:23 PM
But don't you think part of the reason why they strike out or hit into a double play is becuase they are trying to bang the damn ball off the wall or over the fence? You can't deny that we have about 4 carbon copies of Paul Konerko on this team, and it's been proven time and time again that while hitting a million home runs is an exciting way to win a game 15-0, it's not going to be enough to get it done consistently enough to win a division or have any chance of success at all in the playoffs.
Four carbon copies of Paul Konerko? Hey, I'd love to have four guys with 31 HRs and 85 RBIs. Instead, I've got Crede, Valentin, Harris, Alomar and "Clueless Joe" Borchard.

dcb33
08-23-2004, 11:29 PM
Your missing my point. Of course the offense needs to be more complete. We need to get rid of Harris, Alomar and Valentin and find someone who can set the damn table. I'm really fed up with people blaming our power hitters for this losing streak. C. Lee and Konerko are the two best players we have, and folks are calling for one or both to be traded. It's ridiculous. Without those two guys, we would have been shut out on Sunday too. Lee in particular is being unfairly stereotyped as an all-or-nothing hitter. He's been driving the ball to the opposite field the last few games and has received absolutely no credit for that from WSI posters. Konerko is a dead-pull hitter, but he's still hitting .275. That's fine when you look at the RBI production. He had a piss-poor game tonight, but hey, stuff happens. It would help if someone else would pick up the slack every now and then. If CLee, Konerko and Rowand don't get it done, no one gets it done.I think we're both missing each others points here- my main point is that the whole idea of fielding a team that relies on the long ball needs to go- this was the last year for this core of players anyway because Maggs, barring a miracle, won't be back. I couldn't be more happy with C. Lee- he's having
a great year, and so is Konerko. The only reason I've brought Konerko up as a candidate to be traded is because he would have value on the trade market and becuase I want to keep C. Lee, not to mention P.K. will be more expensive next year and is SLOW. This group, with Frank and Maggs, hasn't been able to get it done. I'm not saying get rid of all our power hitters, just change the focus slightly so we aren't such a station to station team.

Either way, it's hard to win when you're pitching gives up 7 runs.

ma_deuce
08-23-2004, 11:29 PM
Four carbon copies of Paul Konerko? Hey, I'd love to have four guys with 31 HRs and 85 RBIs. Instead, I've got Crede, Valentin, Harris, Alomar and "Clueless Joe" Borchard.
Correction: we have two useless Alomars. :(:

Mohoney
08-23-2004, 11:36 PM
I feeeeeeel happy...I think I'll go for a walk.

Tonight marks night one of my hiatus from this club and its day to day blunders. Aside from games I have the TBGR for and the 6 games left on my season package, I'm taking a break.

Day One: Went and played tennis. Went to bar for pints and a burger, watched Olympics while trying to block out the Chubs game being shown on 8 out of the 10 TVs.

Played tennis, then drank and ate a burger?

Just like me. Go out jogging in the morning, only to find myself stopping for McGriddles.

JB98
08-23-2004, 11:52 PM
I think we're both missing each others points here- my main point is that the whole idea of fielding a team that relies on the long ball needs to go- this was the last year for this core of players anyway because Maggs, barring a miracle, won't be back. I couldn't be more happy with C. Lee- he's having
a great year, and so is Konerko. The only reason I've brought Konerko up as a candidate to be traded is because he would have value on the trade market and becuase I want to keep C. Lee, not to mention P.K. will be more expensive next year and is SLOW. This group, with Frank and Maggs, hasn't been able to get it done. I'm not saying get rid of all our power hitters, just change the focus slightly so we aren't such a station to station team.

Either way, it's hard to win when you're pitching gives up 7 runs.
And four of those runs were Valentin's fault, although I'd have to admit that Contreras did not pitch well tonight. I don't think my point of view is that far off from yours. It's just that sometimes people around here make it sound like hitting home runs is a bad thing. You need that extra-base capability to overcome a 4-run deficit. It didn't happen tonight, but it did happen last night. I'm just scared out of my mind that KW and Ozzie think "small ball" is a winning formula. Clearly, balance is the winning formula. I'm glad that we have guys like PK who can get us back in the game with one swing, such as what we saw Sunday vs. Boston. You need guys like that to win, but you also need guys like Ray Durham, who always had a good OBP in the leadoff spot. Durham has had nothing but injuries since he left, so I don't think we miss him specifically, but we miss having a Durham-like player. We haven't had a good leadoff hitter since he left, except for one month of Kenny Lofton in April of 2002.

mdep524
08-24-2004, 12:17 AM
I'm just scared out of my mind that KW and Ozzie think "small ball" is a winning formula. Clearly, balance is the winning formula. I'm glad that we have guys like PK who can get us back in the game with one swing, such as what we saw Sunday vs. Boston. You need guys like that to win, but you also need guys like Ray Durham, who always had a good OBP in the leadoff spot.Good point. I sometimes get that feeling too, that KW will become obsessed with a certain direction/idea/concept and then completely ignore another area. Like, I'm afraid KW will dump this whole team and get a bunch of scraps who'll average 2 runs a game. Balance is the key.

Mohoney
08-24-2004, 12:35 AM
Good point. I sometimes get that feeling too, that KW will become obsessed with a certain direction/idea/concept and then completely ignore another area. Like, I'm afraid KW will dump this whole team and get a bunch of scraps who'll average 2 runs a game. Balance is the key.

You can't have balance with such a small payroll. Therefore, we are left with a concept of putting all our eggs in one basket.

Next year, the basket should be pitching. Trade Judy and Cotts for whatever starter you can get for them (Gil Meche?) and sign either Carl Pavano or Russ Ortiz. Add a viable 4th option to the bullpen to shoulder some of the load that we currently are employing to Politte and Marte.

5 quality starters and 4 quality bullpen guys will win the pitiful AL Central, as long as Judy Garland is GONE.

Every year our postseason hopes hinge on a "breakout year" from Jon Garland, and every year we are disappointed. Enough is enough.

Maybe It's just me, but I look back at the 2000 team and say that the 2004 top 3 of Garcia, Buehrle, and Contreras are WAY better than the 2000 top 3 of Sirotka, Baldwin, and Parque. The difference lies in the rest of the rotation and the bullpen, with Cal Eldred being LIGHT YEARS better than anything that Judy Garland brings to the table, and a foursome of Simas, Wunsch, Howry, and Foulke out of the bullpen being better than a 4 man combo of Jackson, Politte, Marte, and Shingo.

Wealz
08-24-2004, 12:36 AM
It's a good thing we have a GM that wants to win. Kenny's spirit is guiding them through the dog days.

spanishwhite
08-24-2004, 12:38 AM
A couple of decent starts does not make him an ace.
Nor does one bad start make him not an ace. That being said, right now, he isn't an ace but with him Garcia and Buehrle, that's a tough top three in your pitching staff and is the best top three we have had in a long time.

Detroit saw him for the second time in six days. They were bound to do something. If he gives us 3 qualities for each bad outing like this one. Ill definitely take that.

spanishwhite
08-24-2004, 12:43 AM
You can't have balance with such a small payroll. Therefore, we are left with a concept of putting all our eggs in one basket.

Next year, the basket should be pitching. Trade Judy and Cotts for whatever starter you can get for them (Gil Meche?) and sign either Carl Pavano or Russ Ortiz. Add a viable 4th option to the bullpen to shoulder some of the load that we currently are employing to Politte and Marte.

5 quality starters and 4 quality bullpen guys will win the pitiful AL Central, as long as Judy Garland is GONE.

Every year our postseason hopes hinge on a "breakout year" from Jon Garland, and every year we are disappointed. Enough is enough.

Maybe It's just me, but I look back at the 2000 team and say that the 2004 top 3 of Garcia, Buehrle, and Contreras are WAY better than the 2000 top 3 of Sirotka, Baldwin, and Parque. The difference lies in the rest of the rotation and the bullpen, with Cal Eldred being LIGHT YEARS better than anything that Judy Garland brings to the table, and a foursome of Simas, Wunsch, Howry, and Foulke out of the bullpen being better than a 4 man combo of Jackson, Politte, Marte, and Shingo.
Beat me to the punch. Can't say that I exactly agree with the trade Judy and Cotts for Meche. Maybe Judy for Meche and a lower level prospect is more fair. Judy, eventhough he is Judy, still has accomplished a hell of a lot of more than Meche. And I think that Cotts should be given more of a chance. I think he is a lot better than people think, and recently he has been one of our better relievers (that's not saying much.)

manuelsucks
08-24-2004, 12:57 AM
I never understood all the euphoria over acquiring Contreras. A couple of decent starts does not make him an ace.
Nor does one loss. Chill and let's see how he is at the end of the season. One bad start doesn't mean he's going to be trash the rest of his contract.

Mohoney
08-24-2004, 12:58 AM
Beat me to the punch. Can't say that I exactly agree with the trade Judy and Cotts for Meche. Maybe Judy for Meche and a lower level prospect is more fair. Judy, eventhough he is Judy, still has accomplished a hell of a lot of more than Meche.

I disagree. Meche has posted a 15 win season. Meche has a winning record in his career. Meche has given up less hits than innings pitched. Meche has a better K/BB ratio. Meche gives up less HR/9.

Meche doesn't take every chance he can get to berate his fanbase.

Plus, Meche has less than 500 Innings Pitched in the majors. Garland has over 700. If I were going to put my faith in one prospect over the other, it would DEFINITELY be Meche over Garland. As for Neal Cotts, he has ONE PITCH! That's not good. Trade him while he still has value. If Garland and Cotts get me Meche and an A ball pitching prospect, I'm ALL OVER IT!

spanishwhite
08-24-2004, 02:01 AM
I disagree. Meche has posted a 15 win season. Meche has a winning record in his career. Meche has given up less hits than innings pitched. Meche has a better K/BB ratio. Meche gives up less HR/9.

Meche doesn't take every chance he can get to berate his fanbase.

Plus, Meche has less than 500 Innings Pitched in the majors. Garland has over 700. If I were going to put my faith in one prospect over the other, it would DEFINITELY be Meche over Garland. As for Neal Cotts, he has ONE PITCH! That's not good. Trade him while he still has value. If Garland and Cotts get me Meche and an A ball pitching prospect, I'm ALL OVER IT!
Yeah, but the fact he had to be sent down to the minors this year to regain confidence, get better mechanics, etc. at age 25 is a negative.

Plus Garland is younger, plus Meche was part of those good Seattle teams, Jon has had mediocre Sox teams, plus he has a lower ERA and batting avg against. I see your point and think it might be a fair straight up trade. Meche has had a recent string of solid to dominate starts but that does not make a season.

When I followed Cotts in the minors, all I heard about was how good his changeup was. When he got to the majors, all I heard about was how sneaky fast and good his fastball was. So I dont know what to think about Cotts. But I do know he has put together a ERA of 1.80 in August with 11 K/10 innings to 4/bbs. Batters only hit .237 off of him and Righties hit .216 off of him. Usually lefties shut down lefties. He is shutting down righties. He is almost striking out a hitter per inning and has been cutting back on the walks. That one pitch sure is doing a lot. And if you think Meche should be had for his one good month of August than Cotts' value should be higher because of his one good month of August as well.

That being said a Garland for Meche trade looks good to me. And I just think Cotts should be given a little more time.

Baby Fisk
08-24-2004, 09:05 AM
not surprising at all. THIS is the jose contreras i knowWeren't you just saying yesterday that we need to see how Contreras performs next season before ripping or praising him and the deal that swung him here? Your zeal for trashing any Sox player to support your hate of Kenny Williams is depressing. If you want to rip someone, rip Alomar -- that's someone who deserves to be ripped. Never mind, you were right all along, Kenny must go! :rolleyes:

Baby Fisk
08-24-2004, 09:09 AM
Played tennis, then drank and ate a burger?

Just like me. Go out jogging in the morning, only to find myself stopping for McGriddles.Went cycling this morning, then went for a McMuffin. It's all about maintaining a zen-like balance, is what I've convinced myself... :cool:

BlackAndWhite
08-24-2004, 09:13 AM
You can't have balance with such a small payroll.
Sure you can, but you have to do it through your farm system (see the Twinks).

Fungo
08-24-2004, 09:18 AM
Nor does one loss. Chill and let's see how he is at the end of the season. One bad start doesn't mean he's going to be trash the rest of his contract.He is wearing Jon Garland's old number 52. Let's hope it's not starting to wear off on Jose.

SoxFan78
08-24-2004, 09:24 AM
Thank god Comcast added the NFL Network so now I have something to watch. Pre season games, QB Challenge, Sounds of the game, just enough for me not to watch ESPN and sportscenter.

I cant watch anymore. I at least thought if the Sox were gonna melt down, it would happen in late September, but August?? Un-F'n-Believable.

Ive come up with the Sox are like that hot girl you always wanted to date in High school. But in this case you did get to date her, even get to second base with her, but she would tease you all the time, and all of a sudden, stop caring and rip your heart out, all the while cheating on you with a Cubs fan.

God hates the Sox, thats the only thing I know right now.

PaulDrake
08-24-2004, 12:15 PM
Lip - I've got to be honest with you. If Guillen and Williams are part of the future, this team may struggle for a long while. If they are a part of the future then the White Sox could go the way of the Rockets, Stags, Cardinals, and Packers/Zephyrs.

mdep524
08-24-2004, 12:31 PM
You can't have balance with such a small payroll. Therefore, we are left with a concept of putting all our eggs in one basket.

Next year, the basket should be pitching. Trade Judy and Cotts for whatever starter you can get for them (Gil Meche?) and sign either Carl Pavano or Russ Ortiz. Add a viable 4th option to the bullpen to shoulder some of the load that we currently are employing to Politte and Marte.

5 quality starters and 4 quality bullpen guys will win the pitiful AL Central, as long as Judy Garland is GONE.
The small payroll excuse is hogwash. The Twins payroll is significantly smaller than the Sox, and they are much more well-rounded and balanced. The Marlins' payroll last year was under $50 million, and they were the most balanced team in baseball- speed, OBP, power, pitching, etc.

The Sox payroll next year will probably be in the $70 mil range, that is BY FAR good enough to achieve balance, especially when you consider Mags' 14 mil will be gone and possibly Paulie's 8 mil as well.

Hokiesox
08-24-2004, 12:38 PM
In the immortal words of Rob Schneider:

2004 white sox: "OH NO, We suck again!"

JB98
08-24-2004, 01:00 PM
Good point. I sometimes get that feeling too, that KW will become obsessed with a certain direction/idea/concept and then completely ignore another area. Like, I'm afraid KW will dump this whole team and get a bunch of scraps who'll average 2 runs a game. Balance is the key.
He's such an emotional GM that I'm afraid he'll overreact to excess amount of home-run swings we've seen this year. I just pray to God he doesn't turn us into the Brewers. Milwaukee is scrappy. They can do the little things. But they are also in last place because they have no power, other than Jenkins.