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View Full Version : *Official* Post your Sox GM/Kenny Williams thoughts here. (They will wind up here)


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lowesox
08-20-2004, 05:33 PM
Here's what I would do:

I would basically start again. I would put EVERYONE on the market. The only guys I would insist upon keeping is Crede and Garland. (I would keep those guys until they get hot - then trade them too). But, I wouldn't trade anybody who I wasn't getting proper value for. In return, I'd be asking for major and minor league prospects.

I think that we do have a couple of guys who I would keep around because I know their value will go up. Guys like Ben Davis, Juan Uribe, Atkins, Cotts and Harris.

This would leave me with a number of holes in my roster and a little spending money. I would use the money to sign good (but not all-star) players ALL to one year contracts. This way, if the team is in contention then we keep the players and make a go for it, which is good. But, if the team isn't in contention, then we trade again for prospects and young players, which is even better. This way we're building towards a dynasty.

Anyway, that's what I would do. Chances are KW will just keep "going for it" with the nucleus we have now - which I don't think has what it takes.

What would everybody else do?

skobabe8
08-20-2004, 05:40 PM
MAKE THE FIREWORKS SHOOT OUT OF THE PINWHEELS. :tongue:

nitetrain8601
08-20-2004, 05:42 PM
MAKE THE FIREWORKS SHOOT OUT OF THE PINWHEELS. :tongue:
My thoughts exactly. That change will result in 20 extra wins in itself, therefore paying for itself.

hawkeyesrule
08-20-2004, 05:42 PM
And we would then be known as the Pirates. Bad idea.

We need to keep a core together. We are literally 3 players away from a very solid team. This year we lost our top two hitters and run producers. Take away the top two guys from almost any team, and you have a severe problem.

TheBull19
08-20-2004, 05:45 PM
I agree, but I'd want to keep what we've got w/ the pitching staff - Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland, Marte and Shingo. Keep young cheap guys like Rowand, Uribe and Harris and try to rebuild around them, focusing on bolstering the bullpen, another good starter, and get position players that have good speed, strong arms and good fundamentals, not necessarily top of the line guys. I'd try to get rid of Maggs, Thomas, Lee, Valentin, Konerko - I think they have selfish attitudes, and the Sox need to start over with a good organization system where team play, hustle and hard work are valued over individualism. Move the fences back a good 10-15 feet and focus on pitching, defense and hustle.

hawkeyesrule
08-20-2004, 05:49 PM
I'd try to get rid of Maggs, Thomas, Lee, Valentin, Konerko - I think they have selfish attitudes, and the Sox need to start over with a good organization system where team play, hustle and hard work are valued over individualism. Move the fences back a good 10-15 feet and focus on pitching, defense and hustle.
Selfish attitudes? Thomas, yes. Lee, maybe. Maggs, Valentin, and Konerko, no way! Jose took less money to stay with the team, and said he would be willing to do it again. Maggs always went to RF when the situation called for it. Konerko seems to be as good of a teammate as anyone could ask.

ja1022
08-20-2004, 05:51 PM
First, I'd like to resign (healthy) Maggs. Then I'd like to keep Konerko, Thomas, Lee and Rowand has earned a spot. I like Buerhle, Garcia and at this moment, Contreras and Marte. None of these nine are untouchable, but you'd need to get great value in return. Offensively, this group, with the exception of Rowand, has been around for awhile and hasn't gotten it done, but I'd like to see KW and some left handed bats to this group.

Dub25
08-20-2004, 06:14 PM
Selfish attitudes? Thomas, yes. Lee, maybe. Maggs, Valentin, and Konerko, no way! Jose took less money to stay with the team, and said he would be willing to do it again. Maggs always went to RF when the situation called for it. Konerko seems to be as good of a teammate as anyone could ask.
Jose did not take less money to stay. KW picked up his option at 5 mil for this year.

Daver
08-20-2004, 06:18 PM
Jose did not take less money to stay. KW picked up his option at 5 mil for this year.
Jose took less money in 2001 to stay, he had a bigger offer from Baltimore. There may have been an agreement made at the time that the Sox would excercise his third year option.

balke
08-20-2004, 06:20 PM
I can't believe someone said they wanted to keep crede around and didn't get reemed for it...



I don't know why you would ever get rid of Rowand, he's the new face. I would let go of maggs. I'd keep Lee and Thomas, so you have at least 3 good-great hitters. I'd go get a bullpen, and a decent outfielder with maggs salary and Konerko's #'s as bait. I'd keep Uribe and possibly Crede, trying to form a good defensive infield to help the pitching.

This list would change if I had the shot at any true ACE that could go at the top of this order. Someone worth close to Maggs' salary. If we could get someone like that, then Just worry about the bullpen, and keep this team together as best I can. Even try to keep Maggs if the Boss will give me the dough.

Dub25
08-20-2004, 06:24 PM
Jose took less money in 2001 to stay, he had a bigger offer from Baltimore. There may have been an agreement made at the time that the Sox would excercise his third year option.
Wow, did not know that. What were the O's offering and what did he end up getting here?

Aidan
08-20-2004, 06:29 PM
Well, Jose is getting old now and we will probably need to sign a younger SS at some point. Still, you have to admit that getting 26 HRs and 64 RBIs from your SS is pretty impressive. Jose is only hitting .228 but he gets on base a bit more than Orlando Cabrera. Granted, Cabrera's defense is much better.

Jose Valentin (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=123610)
.228 AVG
.297 OBP
26 HR
64 RBI

Orlando Cabrera (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=111851)
.241 AVG
.290 OBP
5 HR
38 RBI

If only Jose could get his AVG and OBP back up to around his career numbers of .322 OBP and .245 AVG. Then his numbers would be truly impressive. But maybe he's just winding down and his skills are deteriorating? He is almost 35 years old now. :whiner:

Daver
08-20-2004, 06:35 PM
Wow, did not know that. What were the O's offering and what did he end up getting here?
He got 4M, 5M, and his option picked up at 5M.

I don't remember the exact numbers of Baltimore's offer, I do know it was a three year deal offered.

Dub25
08-20-2004, 06:39 PM
Well, Jose is getting old now and we will probably need to sign a younger SS at some point. Still, you have to admit that getting 26 HRs and 64 RBIs from your SS is pretty impressive. Jose is only hitting .228 but he gets on base a bit more than Orlando Cabrera. Granted, Cabrera's defense is much better.

Jose Valentin (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=123610)
.228 AVG
.297 OBP
26 HR
64 RBI

Orlando Cabrera (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=111851)
.241 AVG
.290 OBP
5 HR
38 RBI

If only Jose could get his AVG and OBP back up to around his career numbers of .322 OBP and .245 AVG. Then his numbers would be truly impressive. But maybe he's just winding down and his skills are deteriorating? He is almost 35 years old now. :whiner:
You want a younger SS? How about Edgar Renteria? If they can't resign Maggs how about using some of the money towards this guy. Anyone know how old Edgar is?

balke
08-20-2004, 06:53 PM
You want a younger SS? How about Edgar Renteria? If they can't resign Maggs how about using some of the money towards this guy. Anyone know how old Edgar is?http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=121074

He can hit lefties too

lowesox
08-20-2004, 07:33 PM
Interesting replies. Don't you guys see this nucleus is going nowhere. They've failed a few times now, and they're getting older. They've shown little in terms of 'fire' and almost always lose the big game.

This team won't win anything until we gut it and start over. I can't believe so many of you are holding on to the possibility that after years of mediocrity, these guys are just going to turn a switch and become championship material.
Sure, they might be a playoff team? But a World Series team? No way.

Right now, there are some guys with high levels of value. Guys like Rowand , Takatsu, Lee, Konerko and Garcia could all reap impressive returns. Rebuilding now would only take a year or two tops. And we could still be competitive while we do it.

Lip Man 1
08-20-2004, 09:33 PM
It will be a real test of the ability of Kenny Williams this off season. Look back historically to what Roland Hemond was able to accomplish during the winter of 1970 - 1971 when he gutted the Sox and rebuilt them overnight. His philosophy was that he was going to get two good players for every one he traded...and he did.

This club has some talented players that other teams will want, we'll see what he can get for them.

I don't think there is any question that of the six regular 'power' hitters in the line up (Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Konerko, Valentin and Everett) at least two will not be back.

Personally I think it will be three...Ordonez, Valentin and EITHER Lee or Konerko.

Lip

Wealz
08-20-2004, 09:57 PM
I really don't care that he "wants to win", name me a GM who doesn't. For example, he talks a great game about players playing hard, etc, etc, then he acquires the dog of all dogs, Robbie Alomar, not once but twice.

The job has gotten too big for this guy.

Aidan
08-20-2004, 09:59 PM
One acquisition does not make the GM. After all, where would we be if KW didn't sign Shingo. Freddy Garcia and Ben Davis have done well here. Also, the Loaiza trade has been a success so far.

nitetrain8601
08-20-2004, 10:01 PM
OMG, here we go again.

It's not KW's fault that his players let him down. He's tried. On paper, this team is one of the most talented(I would say around #5), but his players just haven't performed. He's tried his ass off and with the exception of in the beginning, has been getting the better of trades. Stop blaming the guy. Someone should lock this thread. I'm calling for the official, "this thread sucks" pic

Wealz
08-20-2004, 10:05 PM
OMG, here we go again.

It's not KW's fault that his players let him down. He's tried. On paper, this team is one of the most talented(I would say around #5), but his players just haven't performed. He's tried his ass off and with the exception of in the beginning, has been getting the better of trades. Stop blaming the guy. Someone should lock this thread. I'm calling for the official, "this thread sucks" pic
Four years in a row they haven't performed, but don't blame the guy who put the team together? My goodness.

OEO Magglio
08-20-2004, 10:07 PM
:threadsucks

nitetrain8601
08-20-2004, 10:10 PM
Four years in a row they haven't performed, but don't blame the guy who put the team together? My goodness.
Yes, He did make bad trades in the beginning. He learned from mistakes and learned how to deal prospects that wouldn't help them for guys who would. He's made most of his deals way before the deadline so it would give the team a real shot to compete. Garcia & Contreras and All-Star Everett and Alomar come to mind. He's tried, especially with the given budget. He also had Walker and Delgado, it's not his fault they waived the no-trade clause. To blame him is just trying to find a scapegoat and is being an irresponsible fan. You don't like K-dub, then I think you should go root for the team up north so you could shut your yap. Again, this thread sucks.

nitetrain8601
08-20-2004, 10:11 PM
:threadsucks
Excellent.

Wealz
08-20-2004, 10:17 PM
Yes, He did make bad trades in the beginning. He learned from mistakes and learned how to deal prospects that wouldn't help them for guys who would. He's made most of his deals way before the deadline so it would give the team a real shot to compete. Garcia & Contreras and All-Star Everett and Alomar come to mind. He's tried, especially with the given budget. He also had Walker and Delgado, it's not his fault they waived the no-trade clause. To blame him is just trying to find a scapegoat and is being an irresponsible fan. You don't like K-dub, then I think you should go root for the team up north so you could shut your yap. Again, this thread sucks.
I wish this changed the fact that Williams is not a capable GM.

Aidan
08-20-2004, 10:19 PM
I wish this changed the fact that Williams is not a capable GM.This thread truly does suck. At least blame the players for not doing what they are paid to do. If you have forgotten, before Maggs and Frank got injured, this team was in 1st place for much of the first half of the season.

Daver
08-20-2004, 10:20 PM
Four years in a row they haven't performed, but don't blame the guy who put the team together? My goodness.
The manager is responsible for using the talent he has, has he used it well?

dcb33
08-20-2004, 10:20 PM
Four years in a row they haven't performed, but don't blame the guy who put the team together? My goodness.
I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune if Frank and Maggs were still healthy and our offense was still formidable enough to compete. If you're so smart and can put together a team that does better than KW's while losing your 3 and 4 hitters just in time for the stretch run then why don't you apply to be GM? My goodness....

scottmt
08-20-2004, 10:21 PM
I really don't care that he "wants to win", name me a GM who doesn't. For example, he talks a great game about players playing hard, etc, etc, then he acquires the dog of all dogs, Robbie Alomar, not once but twice.

The job has gotten too big for this guy.
Should every GM whose team does not win the series for a few years be fired? Of course not. People are too fickle. KW has made more good moves than bad ones, but luck has not been on his side. Give him a break.

Wealz
08-20-2004, 10:26 PM
The manager is responsible for using the talent he has, has he used it well?
There is no good way to use Mike Jackson or the brothers Alomar.

inta
08-20-2004, 10:38 PM
KW isn't the one out there playing, pitching and coaching.
something rotten is in the sox clubhouse and it's majorlly contagious.

it's the suckass attitude of these sox that forced KW to get desperate towards the end with the alomar and everett deals.

Aidan
08-20-2004, 10:40 PM
KW isn't the one out there playing, pitching and coaching.
something rotten is in the sox clubhouse and it's majorlly contagious.

it's the suckass attitude of these sox that forced KW to get desperate towards the end with the alomar and everett deals.Carl Everett was meant to replace Frank Thomas. The Robbie Alomar trade was desperation.

Daver
08-20-2004, 10:56 PM
There is no good way to use Mike Jackson or the brothers Alomar.
That is three players out of twenty five.

And Sandy Alomar called all the games from the bench till going on the DL, so now you are down to two out of twenty five.

What's the excuse you come up with now for bad managing?

batmanZoSo
08-20-2004, 11:01 PM
KW isn't the one out there playing, pitching and coaching.
something rotten is in the sox clubhouse and it's majorlly contagious.

it's the suckass attitude of these sox that forced KW to get desperate towards the end with the alomar and everett deals.
All year we were right there in first or a game out until Frank and Maggs got hurt. There's nothing going on but that. Take Bonds out of Frisco and they're below .500.

duke of dorwood
08-20-2004, 11:05 PM
And if the dog didnt stop to take a crap, he'd have caught the rabbit

duke of dorwood
08-20-2004, 11:09 PM
And the managing has been bad throughout. KW was not given the authority to bring in an established leader. We get CHEAP first timers that wasted a pretty good core of players at one time.

batmanZoSo
08-20-2004, 11:11 PM
And if the dog didnt stop to take a crap, he'd have caught the rabbit
What does that mean? What I said is the truth. Anyone who blames KW for this is acutely retarded. Without Frank and Maggs we ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

dcb33
08-20-2004, 11:15 PM
There is no good way to use Mike Jackson or the brothers Alomar.OK- you have legitimate reason to criticize KW on this year's pitching staff- IIRC our opening day rotation was Buerhle, Loaiza, Garland, Schoney, Wright (how brutal is that?), but you can't tell me he hasn't solidified that rotation for not only this year, but for the next several years, and put the team in position of really needing one more good starter to really have a formidable rotation. Yeah, the 5th starter spot has been a fiasco, but I don't know of too many teams in the majors who haven't had problems with coming up with a solid 5 man rotation, except maybe the Cubs who apparently have 5 No. 1 starters, or so we're all told.
The bullpen is a mess, and he was foolish for letting guys like Flash and Scott Sullivan go, but hindsight is 20/20, and you can sign all the bullpen help you want, but like I said earlier, without your 3 and 4 hitters for the stretch run, you're really going to be in for a world of hurt...

Wealz
08-20-2004, 11:16 PM
That is three players out of twenty five.

And Sandy Alomar called all the games from the bench till going on the DL, so now you are down to two out of twenty five.

What's the excuse you come up with now for bad managing?
Diaz/Stewart, Burke, Borchard, Harris, Perez, Crede, Garland. Guillen isn't the problem.

dickallen15
08-20-2004, 11:17 PM
KW didn't want Thomas or Ordonez around in the first place. If Thomas had left, he would have replaced him with Everett. Ordonez was to be replaced by Nomar and perhaps Juan Gonzalez. He brings back Roberto Alomar, gives Cliff Politte a huge role. Counts on Sandy Alomar even though he can barely walk.Ozzie Guillen only brings soundbites to the table. His handling of the pitching staff, in game decisions, and line ups, leave much to be desired. KW seems to have a direct line to the Anti Cruelty Society with all the dogs he's collected. I'm with the originator of this thread. KW tries hard, gives a great effort, but effort unfortunately doesn't mean didley in the real world, results do. If you remember, KW received a lot of credit for the farm system before he became the GM. I believe that Baseball America rating the system #1 in baseball back in 2000, helped him get his current position. That farm system greatness was a mirage, just like the 4 teams he has assembled. Don't say its because JR is cheap. The White Sox have the highest payroll in their division and they are third.

batmanZoSo
08-20-2004, 11:20 PM
OK- you have legitimate reason to criticize KW on this year's pitching staff- IIRC our opening day rotation was Buerhle, Loaiza, Garland, Schoney, Wright (how brutal is that?), but you can't tell me he hasn't solidified that rotation for not only this year, but for the next several years, and put the team in position of really needing one more good starter to really have a formidable rotation. Yeah, the 5th starter spot has been a fiasco, but I don't know of too many teams in the majors who haven't had problems with coming up with a solid 5 man rotation, except maybe the Cubs who apparently have 5 No. 1 starters, or so we're all told.
The bullpen is a mess, and he was foolish for letting guys like Flash and Scott Sullivan go, but hindsight is 20/20, and you can sign all the bullpen help you want, but like I said earlier, without your 3 and 4 hitters for the stretch run, you're really going to be in for a world of hurt...
I don't think Flash was worth 5 million or whatever he was asking for his 12 saves and that ticking time bomb he calls an arm. And Sullivan didn't do much when he was with us. But most importantly, any guys we couldn't or didn't re-sign is because of Reinsdorf cutting the payroll. Don't you think KW would've wanted to re-sign Colon, Alomar and Everett rather than go with Wright, Timo and Willie?

Lip Man 1
08-20-2004, 11:21 PM
Williams has made his mistakes but until he's given a major market budget to work with instead of trying to be 'creative' every year with ZERO room for mistakes, slumps or injuries, it's hard to say for sure he is the problem.

Lip

Wealz
08-20-2004, 11:24 PM
Williams has made his mistakes but until he's given a major market budget to work with instead of trying to be 'creative' every year with ZERO room for mistakes, slumps or injuries, it's hard to say for sure he is the problem.

Lip
They've had the highest payroll in their division in at least 3 of Williams' 4 years though.

Daver
08-20-2004, 11:25 PM
They've had the highest payroll in their division in at least 3 of Williams' 4 years though.
Based on what?

oeo
08-20-2004, 11:32 PM
It isn't KW's fault that Robbie doesn't want to play hard. I'm getting real sick of this guy though, its like he has no desire to play baseball anymore, or at least with the White Sox.

Wealz
08-20-2004, 11:33 PM
Based on what?
Why a Google search of course. I stand corrected, Cleveland had the highest payroll in the division in 2001, 2002. The Sox have had the highest in 2003, 2004.

dickallen15
08-20-2004, 11:33 PM
I don't think Flash was worth 5 million or whatever he was asking for his 12 saves and that ticking time bomb he calls an arm. And Sullivan didn't do much when he was with us. But most importantly, any guys we couldn't or didn't re-sign is because of Reinsdorf cutting the payroll. Don't you think KW would've wanted to re-sign Colon, Alomar and Everett rather than go with Wright, Timo and Willie?He already stated that if he signed Colon, some other big money player was leaving. They couldn't have gotten rid of Konerko, no team would have picked up his contract, so it would have been Magglio or Lee, and the Sox would have probably received prospects. The Sox would have been no better with Colon, Alomar and Everett, than they were with Wright, Timo and Willie. The still have a fool for a manager. Eventually his buddy buddy relationship with Freddy Garcia is going to make that a pretty bad clubhouse, you heard it here first.

Wealz
08-20-2004, 11:35 PM
It isn't KW's fault that Robbie doesn't want to play hard. I'm getting real sick of this guy though, its like he has no desire to play baseball anymore, or at least with the White Sox.
It's Williams job to evaluate players. If he was a good GM it would be reflected in the won/loss record during his tenure, no?

dcb33
08-20-2004, 11:38 PM
I don't think Flash was worth 5 million or whatever he was asking for his 12 saves and that ticking time bomb he calls an arm. And Sullivan didn't do much when he was with us. But most importantly, any guys we couldn't or didn't re-sign is because of Reinsdorf cutting the payroll. Don't you think KW would've wanted to re-sign Colon, Alomar and Everett rather than go with Wright, Timo and Willie?Flash is costing the Yankmees 3.5MM this year, which is a lot, but the numbers he's put up are better than most of our guys except Shingo, so you get what you pay for... as for cutting the payroll, the Sox opening day 2003 payroll was just over 50MM, and this year's opening day payroll was in the neighborhood of 65-70MM, so to say that JR cheaped out and cut the payroll is BS- the money they offered Colon ultimately went to cover raises for the guys we had....

dickallen15
08-20-2004, 11:43 PM
Flash is costing the Yankmees 3.5MM this year, which is a lot, but the numbers he's put up are better than most of our guys except Shingo... as for cutting the payroll, the Sox opening day 2003 payroll was just over 50MM, and this year's opening day payroll was in the neighborhood of 65-70MM, so to say that JR cheaped out and cut the payroll is BS- the money they offered Colon ultimately went to cover raises for the guys we had....The thing that killed the White Sox was the deal KW gave Koch when he brought him here. He would have been far better off keeping Foulke and letting him walk after the season. He then would have had the extra money to sign Flash, who really wanted to stay here, and Urbina, who, according to Steff, was very close to coming here anyway. GM's are going to make mistakes, every single one of them do. KW's mistakes, although there really are not a lot of them, they all seem collosal.

Tragg
08-21-2004, 12:02 AM
First, I'd like to resign (healthy) Maggs. Then I'd like to keep Konerko, Thomas, Lee and Rowand has earned a spot. I like Buerhle, Garcia and at this moment, Contreras and Marte. None of these nine are untouchable, but you'd need to get great value in return. Offensively, this group, with the exception of Rowand, has been around for awhile and hasn't gotten it done, but I'd like to see KW and some left handed bats to this group.That's basically keeping the core of the team and the core hitters for the last 5 years- and it doesn't leave us much payroll flexibility.
I wouldn't sign maggs for what he's asking. We can get more output for that kind of money.

I'd keep frank, let Maggs and Valentin go, and consider trading either Konerko (preferably) or Lee, if we can get catcher, ss or CF (move Rowand to left) in return.
I like Crede- wish we had that impeccable D at short, and I wouldn't care so much about his hitting- but on a corner position, we need more production which he needs to show next year.

A real professional manager wouldn't hurt either.

Nard
08-21-2004, 12:07 AM
Frank is gonna be a Sox for life. Whether or not that's a good thing is the question.

I, for one, was getting real sick, real fast of his demands for a contract that gives him the respect he deserves(?).

MRKARNO
08-21-2004, 12:15 AM
The two biggest faults that you can find in KW was that he didn't have a decent 5 man rotation to start the year, especially the fifth starter spot and he didn't have a closer. Well all you pro-Foulke people can shut up because we weren't going to be able to resign Foulke for 2004 any way you look at it. I don't fault KW for having Koch as the closer. Ozzie should have had Marte close from the beginning. The real problem as Lip said, was money. We didnt have enough money to sign another starting pitcher or acquire a closer. Our bullpen and rotation weren't solid enough to support our offense.

Now we're 4/5 of the way to a pretty damn good rotation, but we're still kinda far from a respectable, playoff calibur bullpen. If the Sox signed another starter and two solid relievers, it would be a huge step in the right direction.

Tragg
08-21-2004, 12:20 AM
I really don't care that he "wants to win", name me a GM who doesn't. For example, he talks a great game about players playing hard, etc, etc, then he acquires the dog of all dogs, Robbie Alomar, not once but twice.

The job has gotten too big for this guy.
I don't think it's made much difference (ie hasn't cost us post-season), but his penchant for grabbing bad veteran players as obvious stopgaps is annoying. And we don't know what he gave for Alomar (from what I remember)- here's betting it's more than an A Ball prospect.

greenpeach
08-21-2004, 12:53 AM
What does that mean? What I said is the truth. Anyone who blames KW for this is acutely retarded. Without Frank and Maggs we ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
How dare you try to inject some reason into this discussion. Sometimes people just don't want to accept the obvious.

nodiggity59
08-21-2004, 01:59 AM
The thing that killed the White Sox was the deal KW gave Koch when he brought him here. He would have been far better off keeping Foulke and letting him walk after the season. He then would have had the extra money to sign Flash, who really wanted to stay here, and Urbina, who, according to Steff, was very close to coming here anyway. GM's are going to make mistakes, every single one of them do. KW's mistakes, although there really are not a lot of them, they all seem collosal.
I agree completely. Without that deal we would've had Fould in 03 and could have resigned the rejuvinated Flash this year AND still had Shingo. Plus around anothyer 3mil to drop elsewhere.

Wells was a bust but we didn't lose much. Ritchie only cost us a possible 5th starter, at most IMHO. Koch cost us our closer AND 5th starter in 03, and a top setup guy as well as 5th starter this year. Shingo made up for the setup guy and KWs deals improved the starting pitching, but then Frank and Maggs went down and we had another hole. KW couldn't fill that one.

Basically, you can either blame this on KW for Koch, Reinsdorf for not spending more money, or the team in general for not stepping up.

BTW, IMHO :D:

Randar68
08-21-2004, 02:00 AM
Four years in a row they haven't performed, but don't blame the guy who put the team together? My goodness.June 2004 -> today, you've got 250 posts on this topic and done nthing but fill threads with utter crap. Take the 2 BEST players and All-Stars off any team and tell me where they'd be.

You can't. You won't. Becuase it doesn't support your assinine assumptions and assertions.

Stick a sock in it.

:whoflungpoo

soxtalker
08-21-2004, 06:36 AM
...
Wells was a bust but we didn't lose much. Ritchie only cost us a possible 5th starter, at most IMHO. Koch cost us our closer AND 5th starter in 03, and a top setup guy as well as 5th starter this year.
...
Ritchie cost us much more. First, he stuck around here for quite awhile, while we tried to make that trade "work". (That's actually a theme that holds for a number of the acquisitions. You don't usually make a big acquisition and then stop using him after a short time.) Second, while a number of people have pointed out that the players we traded haven't done all that well, they could have been used in other trades, as Kip Wells and Fogg had good promise.

In contrast, I've thought that the Wells deal was a good one both at the time and subsequently. Yes, there were plenty of problems, but he did have a great influence on Buerhle.

Aidan
08-21-2004, 07:05 AM
In contrast, I've thought that the Wells deal was a good one both at the time and subsequently. Yes, there were plenty of problems, but he did have a great influence on Buerhle.The Wells deal was great. Sirotka was actually injured and never pitched effectively again. Of course, it sucked that Wells decided to drink beer all night at the local bars and pitch like crap for us.

JRIG
08-21-2004, 09:23 AM
This team was not built to win the division outright at the beginning of the year. If Frank and Mags were healthy, we'd still at best be in a dogfight for the divsion lead, even with Garcia, who only is coming close to replacing Loaiza's Cy Young-type performance last year, not adding anything we didn't already have.

By the way, if we're judging Ben Davis on 50 at bats, can we do the same for Roberto Alomar with the Sox?

.175/.171/.250

Yes, his OBP is less than his BA. And he's hitting in the two slot. And he's taking at bats away from Willie Harris, so (again) next year, we'll have to hear how Willie deserves a chance and hasn't played a full year and he just needs an opportunity, as opposed to finding out once and for all he isn't the answer.

What a horrendous aquisition.

gosox41
08-21-2004, 09:37 AM
One acquisition does not make the GM. After all, where would we be if KW didn't sign Shingo. Freddy Garcia and Ben Davis have done well here. Also, the Loaiza trade has been a success so far.
Freddy-good trade, though KW did give up a lot.
Shingo-Good move, but he's been starting to get hit around a lot more the second half. The league is adjusting.

Ben Davis-I like the guy, but he is a career nothing. Let's see how he does over time before we start calling him a good acquisition.

Also, the fact that KW was able to trade Loazia (a good trade IMHOas lon as Contreras doesn't turn into a headcase like Garland), will people finally admit that Loaiza was a fluke last year? KW didn't see anything in him anymoe then he saw something in Kelly Dransfeldt. He was a cheap veteran who defied the odds and worked out. Kudos for KW for dumping him while he could.


Bob

gosox41
08-21-2004, 09:41 AM
OMG, here we go again.

It's not KW's fault that his players let him down. He's tried. On paper, this team is one of the most talented(I would say around #5), but his players just haven't performed. He's tried his ass off and with the exception of in the beginning, has been getting the better of trades. Stop blaming the guy. Someone should lock this thread. I'm calling for the official, "this thread sucks" pic
You're saying this is the 5th best team? Do you mean in all of baseball? Even with Frank and Magglio healthy I'd debate that with you.

While some have been ripping KW, looks like you've been drinking your KW Kool Aid.

There's a reason some of these players haven't performed. They're not very good. Crede, Valentin, Sandy Alomar, Roberto Alomar, Mike Jackson, Cotts, Adkins, Time Perez.

They are not good players. Some were at one point in time great ones. But not anymore. They haven't performed well because they're incapable of performing well.



Bob

gosox41
08-21-2004, 09:46 AM
OK- you have legitimate reason to criticize KW on this year's pitching staff- IIRC our opening day rotation was Buerhle, Loaiza, Garland, Schoney, Wright (how brutal is that?), but you can't tell me he hasn't solidified that rotation for not only this year, but for the next several years, and put the team in position of really needing one more good starter to really have a formidable rotation. Yeah, the 5th starter spot has been a fiasco, but I don't know of too many teams in the majors who haven't had problems with coming up with a solid 5 man rotation, except maybe the Cubs who apparently have 5 No. 1 starters, or so we're all told.
The bullpen is a mess, and he was foolish for letting guys like Flash and Scott Sullivan go, but hindsight is 20/20, and you can sign all the bullpen help you want, but like I said earlier, without your 3 and 4 hitters for the stretch run, you're really going to be in for a world of hurt...
Hindsight is 20/20 but if KW couldn't see that it would hurt to let Gordon go then he must be blind.

A lot of these problems the Sox have were addressed by some (incluiding me) preseason. Reiterating certain things now isn't hindsight.

I was in the corner of saying Loaiaza was a fluke. All the Loaiza and KW supporters scoffed at me. Now look at how we (including me) are all so happy he's been traded.



Bob

jabrch
08-21-2004, 09:46 AM
I wish this changed the fact that Williams is not a capable GM.
That's silly. How can you say he isn't capable. He has had a team that has finished no worse than 2nd in the division, nor worse than .500 in his tenure despite injuries and an existing overrated farm system that never produced anything for him.

The failure of this team the past four years has much more to do with the players, the ownership and the managers (JM) than it did with the GM. KW must take some of the responsibility, but to call him not capable is nonsense.

gosox41
08-21-2004, 09:47 AM
I don't think Flash was worth 5 million or whatever he was asking for his 12 saves and that ticking time bomb he calls an arm. And Sullivan didn't do much when he was with us. But most importantly, any guys we couldn't or didn't re-sign is because of Reinsdorf cutting the payroll. Don't you think KW would've wanted to re-sign Colon, Alomar and Everett rather than go with Wright, Timo and Willie?

JR didn't cut the payroll.


Bob

jabrch
08-21-2004, 09:49 AM
[QUOTE=nodiggity59]Basically, you can either blame this on KW for Koch[QUOTE]

No - Foulke had a bad year with us, lost his job, and was going to leave anyhow. Revisionist history is nice - but Foulke was out of the picture either way. Blame Manuel for benching him if you want - but don't blame KW for moving him. You can blame KW for SIGNING Koch to a 2 year deal, but at the time that deal had merit. Wasn't great - but it was not a total waste from the beginning.

gosox41
08-21-2004, 09:49 AM
It isn't KW's fault that Robbie doesn't want to play hard. I'm getting real sick of this guy though, its like he has no desire to play baseball anymore, or at least with the White Sox.
But it is KW's fault for bringing him here. It's not like Alomar just stopped playing hard this year when came to the Sox. Go ask the Met fans how hard they played for him from 2002-mid-2003.

Roberto's been taking a lot of time off, coasting into what he hopes will be the Hall of Fame. The fact is even a pennant race (or being on the fringe of one) can't get him psyched up to play.


Bob

KingXerxes
08-21-2004, 09:53 AM
There is no way in the world that this is the 5th most talented team in baseball - no way.

Here is my opinion about Kenny Williams. While some of his trades have turned out well, and some have stunk, we really haven't lost any great players (which should make everybody worry about the state of ouur farm system). He made a big mistake signing Valentin last winter, but I wonder if he was told (from upstairs) that Valentin had to stay. All in all his trades and talent evaluation have been very mediocre.

Anyway - that all being said - I cannot stand the way he acts. As a general manager he should stay out of the clubhouse, out of the broadcast booth and out of the newspapers - but he can't seem to help himself. This "tough guy" routine with the "we're better than everybody else in baseball" attitude has gotten very old very quickly.

Just shut up, and work the front office - nobody is buying tickets to see or hear Kenny Williams.

gosox41
08-21-2004, 09:55 AM
The two biggest faults that you can find in KW was that he didn't have a decent 5 man rotation to start the year, especially the fifth starter spot and he didn't have a closer. Well all you pro-Foulke people can shut up because we weren't going to be able to resign Foulke for 2004 any way you look at it. I don't fault KW for having Koch as the closer. Ozzie should have had Marte close from the beginning. The real problem as Lip said, was money. We didnt have enough money to sign another starting pitcher or acquire a closer. Our bullpen and rotation weren't solid enough to support our offense.

Now we're 4/5 of the way to a pretty damn good rotation, but we're still kinda far from a respectable, playoff calibur bullpen. If the Sox signed another starter and two solid relievers, it would be a huge step in the right direction.
Karno, I think you're missing the point about Foulke. Foulke in 2002 was a much better pitcher then Koch. Outside of saves, Foulke had better stats in just about every other category.

We all know Foulke was going to leave us after 2003. But this team had a chance to win in 2003. And I've made the argument that Foulke over Koch easily made the differenceo of costing the Sox a playoff spot.

Would you rather have a good player on the team that helps you make the playoffs even if you know he is leaving after that season or have a worse player on the team who can be here longer and ultiamtely cost you a shot at the playoffs?

I'll take the playoffs and see what happens from there. You can have Koch.



Bob

dickallen15
08-21-2004, 10:23 AM
That's silly. How can you say he isn't capable. He has had a team that has finished no worse than 2nd in the division, nor worse than .500 in his tenure despite injuries and an existing overrated farm system that never produced anything for him.

The failure of this team the past four years has much more to do with the players, the ownership and the managers (JM) than it did with the GM. KW must take some of the responsibility, but to call him not capable is nonsense.An overrated farm system that he took all the credit for as farm director when it was erroneously rated #1 in 2000. Thomas and Ordonez going down really hurt. But other teams have injuries. I was at a Sox vs. Twins game in May, and the Twins were so banged up they had Jose Offerman batting clean up. They whipped the Sox butts. KW's minor leaguers rarely produce when they are called up. Valentin is so overrated by a lot of fans because he hits a lot of homers for a shortstop. His errors have really hurt this season. He makes little contact and can't reach base. For all the talk about Harris being inconsistent, Valentin is just as much. The Alomar boys both are done. Everett hasn't done much, he appears to be a waste of money. We've heard that Harris is going to break out for a couple of years now, that appears unlikely. Borchard, who I am a supporter of, appears like a bust. By making Guillen the manager, although Ozzie may be good for the media, KW has assured Sox fans that the White Sox will be outmanaged almost every game they play.
I think KW should be shown the door. If he isn't, it really wouldn't bother me though. The core of this team must change. Crede,Konerko,Lee,Valentin. Of these 4, at least 2 must go. I'm sure Magglio is gone. Wunsch,Jackson,Perez they have to be gone. Harris should be in Charlotte. Uribe, I would keep, but should be a utility player. Davis has done well since he's been here, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with him penciled in as the starting catcher next year if the backup is Jaime Burke. KW has a lot of work to do.

Flight #24
08-21-2004, 10:30 AM
Thomas and Ordonez going down really hurt. But other teams have injuries. I was at a Sox vs. Twins game in May, and the Twins were so banged up they had Jose Offerman batting clean up. They whipped the Sox butts.
Gee, I must have missed the part where losing Shannon Stewart & Joe Mauer was equivalent to losing Frank and Maggs. Yeah, that makes sense.

Not to mention that the Sox were something like 6-3 against the Twins in the first half. But yeah, since they lost one game, they must suck.

Tragg
08-21-2004, 11:03 AM
Gee, I must have missed the part where losing Shannon Stewart & Joe Mauer was equivalent to losing Frank and Maggs. Yeah, that makes sense.

Not to mention that the Sox were something like 6-3 against the Twins in the first half. But yeah, since they lost one game, they must suck.That's true- but it's also a projection to suggest that the team with Maggs and Frank would have won this division.

The basic core couldn't do it the last 3 years (Colon for a whole year was better than Garcia for 1/2; re a prior post, konerko has had good years before; rowand is more productive, without question; shingo for gordon is a wash at best; the uribes don't make the difference; our catching is a joke for 1/2 a year).

It's very possible that this team will have finally broken through. But we may not have.

Now we may be better set up for future years with Contreras and Garcia in long-term deals, some salary flexibility without Maggs (if he insists on 12-15 million, offset somewhat by a $9 million pitcher) . Still a lot of work to do which will require the best of KW. I know they're in short supply, but somehow we need to find a leadoff hitter, especially if this team is going to lose a lot of its power (maggs, valentin, maybe even konerko or lee) as appears likely.

It would also help if we could get an outfielder out of our farm system and if a couple of these young pitchers would mature into at least dependable bullpen arms or fair 5th starters---wishful thinking I know.

dickallen15
08-21-2004, 11:04 AM
Gee, I must have missed the part where losing Shannon Stewart & Joe Mauer was equivalent to losing Frank and Maggs. Yeah, that makes sense.

Not to mention that the Sox were something like 6-3 against the Twins in the first half. But yeah, since they lost one game, they must suck.When they lost those guys, they didn't lay down and die. I thought Everett was a replacement for Thomas, and wasn't Thomas supposed to be a cancer anyway? The fact of the matter is, and if you would have read my post, the loss of those 2 really hurt, but it shouldn't have to the extent that it did. And remember, my post was about KW, and its no secret he didn't want those guys around anyway. Thomas he wanted to go, so he could sign Everett, and he had Magglio traded away, ironically for another guy who was injured most of the year. He would have replaced Magglio in RF with the dog of all dogs in Juan Gonzalez. He wanted to financially hamstring the organization for years, and re sign Colon. He wanted a vastly overpayed and oft injured Darrin Erstad in CF. He wanted to give Robbie Alomar a 2 year contract for $3 million a year before it was rejected by Reinsdorf. If everything had gone KW's way, and he was given $100 million to spend on a team, it would be no better than it is right now. 5-16 their last 21 games against the AL central is brutal. They were getting crushed by KC when KC, already playing without Beltran, had Sweeney out of the line up. They were lost 4 in a row to Detroit. Rodriquez didn't play in 3 of those, actually 2 of those,1 he played 1 inning. Minnesota, they get swept, and it wasn't because Frank and Magglio weren't playing. There's still plenty of power in the White Sox line up. They still have 7 guys capable of 20 homers, Everett, Lee, Konerko, Valentin, Crede, Rowand, Uribe. Not being able to score runs because these 2 are not there is not an excuse.

Tragg
08-21-2004, 11:11 AM
When they lost those guys, they didn't lay down and die. I thought Everett was a replacement for Thomas, and wasn't Thomas supposed to be a cancer anyway? The fact of the matter is, and if you would have read my post, the loss of those 2 really hurt, but it shouldn't have to the extent that it did. And remember, my post was about KW, and its no secret he didn't want those guys around anyway. Thomas he wanted to go, so he could sign Everett, and he had Magglio traded away, ironically for another guy who was injured most of the year. He would have replaced Magglio in RF with the dog of all dogs in Juan Gonzalez.
A lot of truth there- not sure with Frank, but he did want to ship Maggs out for Nomar (ugh) and I don't know whether he wanted Gonzalez, but I agree he is a dog of dogs.

We went through this last year- we suddenly tanked at a critical time for no reason and virtually handed the division to the twins; maybe this year is because of the loss of those 2 (which are killer losses) but based on history with this core, we may have tanked anyway. And we have been playing like a 65 win team for the last 3 weeks, which this team should not be.

gosox41
08-21-2004, 11:23 AM
A lot of truth there- not sure with Frank, but he did want to ship Maggs out for Nomar (ugh) and I don't know whether he wanted Gonzalez, but I agree he is a dog of dogs.

We went through this last year- we suddenly tanked at a critical time for no reason and virtually handed the division to the twins; maybe this year is because of the loss of those 2 (which are killer losses) but based on history with this core, we may have tanked anyway. And we have been playing like a 65 win team for the last 3 weeks, which this team should not be.
FWIW, KW exercised the Dimished Skills Clause in Frank's contract. It took the evil JR to step in and insure that Frank would remain here.


Bob

MRKARNO
08-21-2004, 11:36 AM
I'll take the playoffs and see what happens from there. You can have Koch.

I'm not saying that the Koch move was a good one by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is that all of the pro-Foulke people can't complain about out lack of a closer this year because Foulke would not have been on the team either way. What I am saying is that JR's refusal to raise payroll enough to make this a sure-fire playoff team is what put us in this position this year.

Wealz
08-21-2004, 12:36 PM
June 2004 -> today, you've got 250 posts on this topic and done nthing but fill threads with utter crap. Take the 2 BEST players and All-Stars off any team and tell me where they'd be.

You can't. You won't. Becuase it doesn't support your assinine assumptions and assertions.

Stick a sock in it.Did a search of the June '04 archives myself and found this from you regarding Joe Borchard:

Rowand couldn't hold his jock, TODAY.Ouch.

Lip Man 1
08-21-2004, 01:49 PM
Dick:

Right on the money. Even with Franks and Maggs out there was still enough talent on the team for them to at least looked like they cared, like they were trying.

They haven't done either of the above two in a month.

Losing Frank and Maggs does NOT explain all the problems with this club and organization.

Like I said, have Frank and Maggs been out since 2001?

Lip

sternrulz
08-21-2004, 04:05 PM
Let's blow this thing up before the final trade deadline! I say we dump Alomar and just play Willie full time, how can it hurt?? Trade Everett to a contender who can use another bat, like Atlanta and play Gload at the DH.
Go bcak to a 5 man rotation so we don't annihalate our pitchers arms...and start checking those free agent lists for next year!!!

bafiarocks03
08-21-2004, 04:08 PM
Let's blow this thing up before the final trade deadline! I say we dump Alomar and just play Willie full time, how can it hurt?? Trade Everett to a contender who can use another bat, like Atlanta and play Gload at the DH.
Go bcak to a 5 man rotation so we don't annihalate our pitchers arms...and start checking those free agent lists for next year!!!

i say we dump robbie too....i have no idea why we got him in the first place...WIllie and Juan are awesome at 2nd!! they willl be fine there....

gosox41
08-21-2004, 04:15 PM
I'm not saying that the Koch move was a good one by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is that all of the pro-Foulke people can't complain about out lack of a closer this year because Foulke would not have been on the team either way. What I am saying is that JR's refusal to raise payroll enough to make this a sure-fire playoff team is what put us in this position this year.
The thing is it is possible the payroll would have been even higher this year. Most everyone agrees the Sox had the pitching to carry them far into the playoffs last season.

What if the team made the playoffs and actually got past the first round. Can't say for certain that it wouldn't have happened. That's more $$$$ the sox would get for being in the playoffs last season and even more expected attendance jump for this year.

It's hard to, but look at the big picture. Things would have been different this season had the Sox gone to the playoffs last season, I'm convinced of that. Maybe Foulke would have been gone but maybe they would have signed a different closer. Who knows?

But I'll never get the logic of a contending team trading a good pitcher for a worse pitcher so they can keep the worse pitcher around an extra season.


Bob

balke
08-21-2004, 04:31 PM
Attendance was going to be so high this season too... this season is one giant kick in the nutsack. I think we broke the record in sell-outs, but still only have a 14,000 attendance level on the season.


Frank And Maggs hurt in a lot of ways. Twins would hurt more in attendance if say From the hood Hunter went out, or comparable a Radke, or Santana went out. At least when other teams have players get hurt, they have depth INjuries helped the Twins find MOrneau, who is the new stud.

Sox never had depth, not even on the bench. That's why they were the best starting lineup in the division, but still predicted third. No depth, and a lot of question marks with pitching. THat, and announcers don't know Jack about the white sox. The lineup right now is a pretty good lineup for most teams to start the season with. Lee, Konerko, Valentin, Rowand? But we also had Frank and Maggs tacked on there, that lineup is sick! Today's Fox broadcast proves that, and tomorrows BBTN will do the same, noone pays attention to this team, and we are pretty good healthy. We just weren't built well overall.

skobabe8
08-21-2004, 04:34 PM
Lets stop all of this nonsense and just place the blame where it belongs:

The players.

skobabe8
08-21-2004, 04:36 PM
i say we dump robbie too....i have no idea why we got him in the first place...WIllie and Juan are awesome at 2nd!! they willl be fine there....
I think that was stated in the original post. :smile:

oldcomiskey
08-21-2004, 05:15 PM
i say we dump robbie too....i have no idea why we got him in the first place...WIllie and Juan are awesome at 2nd!! they willl be fine there....I don't know about you but Im a little sick of seeing Harris popping up

misty60481
08-21-2004, 05:18 PM
Play Uribe at 2nd from now on let Harris be saved for PR Juan at least has some pop in his bat--Harris is useless

oldcomiskey
08-21-2004, 05:21 PM
Carl Everett was meant to replace Frank Thomas. The Robbie Alomar trade was desperation.oh please----you dont really believe that, I hope--He is here to help Harris stop popping up and strkinig out

JB98
08-21-2004, 05:28 PM
I don't know about you but Im a little sick of seeing Harris popping up

I'm not a Harris fan, but I'm in favor of playing him at 2B the rest of the year. Let's see how he finishes the season. That will help Ozzie and KW determine what role, if any, Harris can play on this team in 2005. I have a similar view of Uribe. Let's put him at SS everyday and see how he does. I'd put Borchard in that same category. I strongly feel Borchard is a bust, but the only way to find out for sure is to play him the rest of the year. I don't need to see Perez out there anymore. I already know what Timo is: A decent fourth OF and decent LH bat off the bench. It's time to find out once and for all what Borchard has. That should be one of the main goals of the last 42 games.

Also, make Diaz the fifth starter the rest of the year. Maybe he'll relax if he knows he isn't going to have the rug yanked out from under him after a bad outing. This four-man rotation stuff is asinine. Let's pray the Sox are sensible enough not to risk the health of the other four starters in a desperate attempt to pull off a miracle. As Sox fans, we don't expect miracles. Let's hope the front office isn't expecting one either.

R. Alomar, Valentin, Everett: As far as I'm concerned, we can trade them all before Aug. 31. I don't really care whether we finish second or dead last. It's time to get ready for 2005.

oldcomiskey
08-21-2004, 05:44 PM
[QUOTE=JB98]
Also, make Diaz the fifth starter the rest of the year. Maybe he'll relax if he knows he isn't going to have the rug yanked out from under him after a bad outing. This four-man rotation stuff is asinine. Let's pray the Sox are sensible enough not to risk the health of the other four starters in a desperate attempt to pull off a miracle. As Sox fans, we don't expect miracles. Let's hope the front office isn't expecting one either.

Diaz is never gonna pitch in the majors until he learns to throw inside

JB98
08-21-2004, 05:49 PM
[QUOTE=JB98]
Also, make Diaz the fifth starter the rest of the year. Maybe he'll relax if he knows he isn't going to have the rug yanked out from under him after a bad outing. This four-man rotation stuff is asinine. Let's pray the Sox are sensible enough not to risk the health of the other four starters in a desperate attempt to pull off a miracle. As Sox fans, we don't expect miracles. Let's hope the front office isn't expecting one either.

Diaz is never gonna pitch in the majors until he learns to throw inside

You're right. But he's not learning anything at AAA anymore. Every time he gets sent back down, he dominates in Charlotte. He has to learn to make adjustments at the major-league level. There is still enough games left for him to make seven or eight starts with the White Sox. It might be painful for us to watch as fans, but it's time for the education to begin.

Randar68
08-21-2004, 05:54 PM
Did a search of the June '04 archives myself and found this from you regarding Joe Borchard:

Ouch.
Since you're standing there with an empty argument, it really makes your point stronger to attack unrelated past statements anyone makes?

It's what people who have no clue what they're talking about do. It's what people, who just like to bitch about something with no substantive argument do.

WEAK.

Wealz
08-21-2004, 06:08 PM
Since you're standing there with an empty argument, it really makes your point stronger to attack unrelated past statements anyone makes?

It's what people who have no clue what they're talking about do. It's what people, who just like to bitch about something with no substantive argument do.

WEAK.
Point taken. Next time I'll add a nifty 'falling pooh' tag to my rebuttal to help legitimize it.

FWIW, I hope you're right about Borchard being better than Rowand.

ma-gaga
08-21-2004, 06:35 PM
Take the 2 BEST players and All-Stars off any team and tell me where they'd be.
You have to qualify that argument a little. All teams have injuries. The good teams find ways to win without their star players. I don't see that here.

The W.Sox need to address their offense. They've "peaked" but KW still thinks that they can outslug anyone and win. That is an issue that KW has to address. They need depth and balance, but, oh whoops, no more deep farm system, AND they traded away one of their young kids that was likely to get better. That's terrible. This was the year to win and they've freaking let it slip thru their fingers.

The pitching staff is adequate to win. There's no STUDS. Buehrle, Garcia and Conteras are all ideal #2 pitchers. If Buerhle steps up he could be considered a #1 stud. You have Garland who is a fine #4. I've seen the value of a dominant bullpen over the last 3 years, so THAT would be an issue, but bullpen help should be cheaply available, or ideally built thru minor league acquisitions.


Draft a new young catching stud if possible.
Trade Konerko for pitching.
Play Uribe, dump Alomar.
I'm torn on Valentine. I think you need to dump him, but there's really noone that much better out there. Unless you can somehow sign Renteria, but he's not leaving St.Louis. Unless you can somehow sign Garciaparra, but he's not leaving Cubbie-ville.
Crede is ... eh. I'm thinking he's still got a shot, but I don't know. I'd probably give him thru 2005.
An OF of Lee, Rowand and Borchard isn't bad, but you need at least 2 bench outfielders for injuries. That is an immediate need.
Keep Thomas. That's the no brainer of the century.
Get 1-2 more bullpen guys. Emphasise K/9. Draft guys out of college, take your minor league studs and work them in by giving them bullpen work.
Get a garbage veteran 5th starter in case one of the kids fail in the role. Rick Helling or equal.
That's it. Bullpen, backup outfielders and a catcher are the three MAIN areas to address.

JRIG
08-21-2004, 06:43 PM
Take the 2 BEST players and All-Stars off any team and tell me where they'd be.


Well, let's see. The Angels have been without Troy Glaus all season long, and injuries have robbed Garrett Anderson and Tim Salmon of both playing time and most of their effectiveness.

Two best players? Probably not, with Vlad on the squad. But the 2nd and 3rd best players? Yes. Plus a solid contibutor at DH and RF. And where are they? 68-54, 1.5 games back of first. Why? Oh yes, because their GM has built depth in the minor league system and they can fill holes with guys like Figgins, Quinlan, and DaVannon.

batmanZoSo
08-21-2004, 07:02 PM
This team was not built to win the division outright at the beginning of the year. If Frank and Mags were healthy, we'd still at best be in a dogfight for the divsion lead, even with Garcia, who only is coming close to replacing Loaiza's Cy Young-type performance last year, not adding anything we didn't already have.

By the way, if we're judging Ben Davis on 50 at bats, can we do the same for Roberto Alomar with the Sox?

.175/.171/.250

Yes, his OBP is less than his BA. And he's hitting in the two slot. And he's taking at bats away from Willie Harris, so (again) next year, we'll have to hear how Willie deserves a chance and hasn't played a full year and he just needs an opportunity, as opposed to finding out once and for all he isn't the answer.

What a horrendous aquisition.
Is it possible to have a lower obp than average? He must really be trying to suck.

JRIG
08-21-2004, 07:04 PM
Is it possible to have a lower obp than average? He must really be trying to suck.
Yes. This would be because of Alomar not drawing a walk yet, but hitting one sacrifice fly.

habibharu
08-21-2004, 07:09 PM
Lets stop all of this nonsense and just place the blame where it belongs:

The players. you cant fire 25 players

batmanZoSo
08-21-2004, 07:11 PM
You have to qualify that argument a little. All teams have injuries. The good teams find ways to win without their star players. I don't see that here.

The W.Sox need to address their offense. They've "peaked" but KW still thinks that they can outslug anyone and win. That is an issue that KW has to address. They need depth and balance, but, oh whoops, no more deep farm system, AND they traded away one of their young kids that was likely to get better. That's terrible. This was the year to win and they've freaking let it slip thru their fingers.

The pitching staff is adequate to win. There's no STUDS. Buehrle, Garcia and Conteras are all ideal #2 pitchers. If Buerhle steps up he could be considered a #1 stud. You have Garland who is a fine #4. I've seen the value of a dominant bullpen over the last 3 years, so THAT would be an issue, but bullpen help should be cheaply available, or ideally built thru minor league acquisitions.


Draft a new young catching stud if possible.
Trade Konerko for pitching.
Play Uribe, dump Alomar.
I'm torn on Valentine. I think you need to dump him, but there's really noone that much better out there. Unless you can somehow sign Renteria, but he's not leaving St.Louis. Unless you can somehow sign Garciaparra, but he's not leaving Cubbie-ville.
Crede is ... eh. I'm thinking he's still got a shot, but I don't know. I'd probably give him thru 2005.
An OF of Lee, Rowand and Borchard isn't bad, but you need at least 2 bench outfielders for injuries. That is an immediate need.
Keep Thomas. That's the no brainer of the century.
Get 1-2 more bullpen guys. Emphasise K/9. Draft guys out of college, take your minor league studs and work them in by giving them bullpen work.
Get a garbage veteran 5th starter in case one of the kids fail in the role. Rick Helling or equal.
That's it. Bullpen, backup outfielders and a catcher are the three MAIN areas to address.
Other teams don't find a way to win when they lose what we lost. It just doesn't happen. Thomas was leading the league in on-base. Nobody else on the team was within .050 that I know of. And you lose a 100 rbi gut to boot in Maggs. Those two were the only reason this was a good lineup. We don't have any speed or on base ability, so without them we're basically a mediocre hitting team. On top of that we have a shoddy bullpen and an overall mediocre starting 5. Three good guys, one incosistent little s### and a AA 5th starter doesn't equal a good rotation. We're a mediocre team, period. This is what we should've excpected when Frank and Maggs went down. If we had been built right with some speed and what not, we could overcome the injuries, but our entire game was predicated on Thomas and Maggs crushing the ball.

habibharu
08-21-2004, 07:14 PM
June 2004 -> today, you've got 250 posts on this topic and done nthing but fill threads with utter crap. Take the 2 BEST players and All-Stars off any team and tell me where they'd be.

You can't. You won't. Becuase it doesn't support your assinine assumptions and assertions.

Stick a sock in it.

:whoflungpoo how bout teams that dont HAVE two studs on their team like maggs and frank? how do they get it done? twins, A's,(hudson out for part of the year, zito VERY ordinary, no bullpen), giants(yes they have bonds and schmidt, but snow, alfonzo, durham, mohr, hermanson as closer?),

batmanZoSo
08-21-2004, 07:21 PM
how bout teams that dont HAVE two studs on their team like maggs and frank? how do they get it done? twins, A's,(hudson out for part of the year, zito VERY ordinary, no bullpen), giants(yes they have bonds and schmidt, but snow, alfonzo, durham, mohr, hermanson as closer?),
Those teams aren't built like we are. There's no rule that says in order to win you have to have two guys like Frank and Maggs. The Twins don't have anyone even as good as Lee, but they're three-peating. They have good starting pitching, good defense, good speed, clutch hitting and a very good bullpen. They're a balanced team. Frank and Maggs keep our lineup moving and Frank's eye changes the game for the entire lineup. They're basically our entire team...we can't win without them, so they might as well be.

OzzieBall2004
08-21-2004, 07:28 PM
I posted this in Talkin Baseball, but its relevant here too cause this guys such a friggin' douche...

A day in the life of GM Habiharu....

telephone rings...

Bud Selig: "Hello?"

Habi: "Hey Bud, this is GM Habiharu....I'd like to place an order for Carl Crawford, Rocco Baldelli, David Wright, Mark Teixera, Michael Young, Johan Santana, and Justin Morneau"

Bud: "Ok, and how will you be paying for this?"

Habi: "Well lets see, I really dont want to give you anything, but I guess I'll give you Paul Konerko, Jose Valentin and a bag of balls"

Bud: "Oh wonderful....I'll process your order immediatley"

Habi: "Actually could you throw in Josh Fogg and Kip Wells. I had those future stars once before, and I'd like to try them again"

Bud: "Sure Habi, those are free of charge"

Habi: "Actually, one more thing....hows your BJ Upton?"

Bud: "Oh great, we just got him in a week ago"

Habi: "Why dont you throw him in too"

Bud: "Not a problem Habi, if only KW made moves like you, all those ChiSox fans wouldnt have been disappointed the last 4 years"

Habi: "I know, he was such a moron...."

Bud: "Yep, well good luck with your completely new, young, low cost team that you assembled by making unrealistic trades that no ballclub would agree to"

Habi: "Thanks Bud, take care."

Randar68
08-21-2004, 07:30 PM
Those teams aren't built like we are. There's no rule that says in order to win you have to have two guys like Frank and Maggs. The Twins don't have anyone even as good as Lee, but they're three-peating. They have good starting pitching, good defense, good speed, clutch hitting and a very good bullpen. They're a balanced team. Frank and Maggs keep our lineup moving and Frank's eye changes the game for the entire lineup. They're basically our entire team...we can't win without them, so they might as well be.
Hey, well said.

fquaye149
08-21-2004, 07:31 PM
Well, let's see. The Angels have been without Troy Glaus all season long, and injuries have robbed Garrett Anderson and Tim Salmon of both playing time and most of their effectiveness.

Two best players? Probably not, with Vlad on the squad. But the 2nd and 3rd best players? Yes. Plus a solid contibutor at DH and RF. And where are they? 68-54, 1.5 games back of first. Why? Oh yes, because their GM has built depth in the minor league system and they can fill holes with guys like Figgins, Quinlan, and DaVannon.
Now let's compare payrolls.

And guess what: the angels STILL won't make the playoffs.

JRIG
08-21-2004, 07:43 PM
Now let's compare payrolls.

And guess what: the angels STILL won't make the playoffs.
Nice job of moving the goalposts on that question. Nobody mentionmed a thing about payroll or even making the playoffs, only asking for an example of a team that lost two "All-Star" players and is still getting results. The Angels are an obvious example.

OzzieBall2004
08-21-2004, 07:53 PM
Nice job of moving the goalposts on that question. Nobody mentionmed a thing about payroll or even making the playoffs, only asking for an example of a team that lost two "All-Star" players and is still getting results. The Angels are an obvious example.

You cant ask that question without allowing the obvious response that a team with a 150 million dollar payroll can make up for 2 key injuries. The Angels and the Yankees are the only 2 teams that can lose two big studs and continue to win, and its no coincidence that has something to do with having a 150+ million dollar payroll.

Imagine the Red Sox without Ortiz and Manny. They wouldnt even be close to leading the wild card.

JRIG
08-21-2004, 08:03 PM
You cant ask that question without allowing the obvious response that a team with a 150 million dollar payroll can make up for 2 key injuries. The Angels and the Yankees are the only 2 teams that can lose two big studs and continue to win, and its no coincidence that has something to do with having a 150+ million dollar payroll.

Imagine the Red Sox without Ortiz and Manny. They wouldnt even be close to leading the wild card.
Imagine the Red Sox without Trot Nixon (5th in the AL in OPS last year) and Nomar most of the season. Oh yeah, that happened. And they are still in the Wild Card lead.

The Angels payroll is nowhere near $150 million, by the way. It's about $122, and that includes $12 million of Kevin Appier still on the books for no real reason. I'm also not entirely sure what having a large payroll has to do with building a farm system that can actually contribute something at the major league level.

soxwon
08-21-2004, 08:38 PM
wait tillnext season

1b carlos lee
2b willie
ss uribe
3b crede
rfborchard
cf beltran
lf rowand
dh frank
c ben

p buehrle-garcia-clement-contreras-garland

batmanZoSo
08-21-2004, 08:44 PM
i say we dump robbie too....i have no idea why we got him in the first place...WIllie and Juan are awesome at 2nd!! they willl be fine there....
Willie will not be fine at second and Uribe has a .313 average...on base that is. We need help up the middle. Uribe's good enough to bat ninth, but Willie and Valentin have simply got to go.

Tragg
08-21-2004, 08:56 PM
wait tillnext season

1b carlos lee
2b willie
ss uribe
3b crede
rfborchard
cf beltran
lf rowand
dh frank
c ben

p buehrle-garcia-clement-contreras-garland
I do think we will finish ahead of the Royals with that lineup next year.

I agree with the sentiments above- play the young guys; diaz at 5th? fine, either him or cotts (whom I believe only had 1 start this year)

Flight #24
08-21-2004, 08:57 PM
When they lost those guys, they didn't lay down and die. I thought Everett was a replacement for Thomas, and wasn't Thomas supposed to be a cancer anyway? The fact of the matter is, and if you would have read my post, the loss of those 2 really hurt, but it shouldn't have to the extent that it did. And remember, my post was about KW, and its no secret he didn't want those guys around anyway. Thomas he wanted to go, so he could sign Everett, and he had Magglio traded away, ironically for another guy who was injured most of the year. He would have replaced Magglio in RF with the dog of all dogs in Juan Gonzalez. He wanted to financially hamstring the organization for years, and re sign Colon. He wanted a vastly overpayed and oft injured Darrin Erstad in CF. He wanted to give Robbie Alomar a 2 year contract for $3 million a year before it was rejected by Reinsdorf. If everything had gone KW's way, and he was given $100 million to spend on a team, it would be no better than it is right now. 5-16 their last 21 games against the AL central is brutal. They were getting crushed by KC when KC, already playing without Beltran, had Sweeney out of the line up. They were lost 4 in a row to Detroit. Rodriquez didn't play in 3 of those, actually 2 of those,1 he played 1 inning. Minnesota, they get swept, and it wasn't because Frank and Magglio weren't playing. There's still plenty of power in the White Sox line up. They still have 7 guys capable of 20 homers, Everett, Lee, Konerko, Valentin, Crede, Rowand, Uribe. Not being able to score runs because these 2 are not there is not an excuse.First off, the "Thomas as cancer" is more a media creation than anything real. Talk to guys in the clubhouse - outside of oan occasional incident (usually around a serious injury), Frank's only been called a good teammate. not a leader in the clubhouse, but by no means a cancer. As for Everett - he was meant to be a better bat than thaey had available to replace Frank. But there's not many players in baseball that can "replace" him with anything close to his production. You take a huge hit with him out.

Hard to say what would have happened had we had Erstad and no Garland the past few years, you don't know what pitcher KW owuld have gotten, it coul easily have ben someone more consistent than Jon. And Darin could easily have provided the solid fundamentals that have been missing from the bashing lineup that is often complained about. It'
s useless to argue aboue what KW WANTED to do, because we don't know - you only know bits of it. If KW wanted to get Erstad and maybe trade for say Jason Schmidt form Pittsburgh, that would have been fine. But knowingonly 1 side doens't tell you much.

The Sox problems are that not only are they without their 2 big bats, they're without 1/3 of their payroll. So you have much weaker guys replacing them AND you have other guys moved into leading roles they're not really suited for. That's a HUGE diofference, and it's exacerbatd by the fact that Frank & Maggs are among the top players in all of baseball - so that type of loss is almost impossible to find an analog for or recover from.

dickallen15
08-21-2004, 10:02 PM
Now let's compare payrolls.

And guess what: the angels STILL won't make the playoffs.If they were in the AL central with 19 games against the Sox, Detroit,KC and Cleveland they would be.

Lip Man 1
08-21-2004, 10:21 PM
Bob:

The Foulke situation makes sense when you are dealing with an organization that always 'cuts corners.' Having the chance to get a former All Star pitcher for an extra season was worth the risk (in their minds...)

And in talking about teams that lost their two best players for a long period of time and hung in, how about the Cubs?

Regarding the Angels, they are still going to have a winning season AND draw over three million because they created excitment in the off season. I don't think they'll be losing to much money this year when all is said and done, AND the injuries can be used as an 'excuse' to give the fans hope for next season and a reason to again buy lots of tickets.

Finally some folks keep saying 'only teams with big payrolls can overcome injuries.'

My answer to that is...then get a big payroll.

Injuries are part of the game, you think the Sox would know better...remember 2001?

Lip

OEO Magglio
08-21-2004, 11:20 PM
Imagine the Red Sox without Trot Nixon (5th in the AL in OPS last year) and Nomar most of the season. Oh yeah, that happened. And they are still in the Wild Card lead.

The Angels payroll is nowhere near $150 million, by the way. It's about $122, and that includes $12 million of Kevin Appier still on the books for no real reason. I'm also not entirely sure what having a large payroll has to do with building a farm system that can actually contribute something at the major league level.Once again your comparing a team with double the payroll of the sox, double kw's payroll and see the type of depth he can add. The sox bench players are just that they're bench players but they aren't starters such as timo and gload. With a 65 million dollar payroll your not going to have tons of depth on your roster.

JB98
08-21-2004, 11:36 PM
I do think we will finish ahead of the Royals with that lineup next year.

I agree with the sentiments above- play the young guys; diaz at 5th? fine, either him or cotts (whom I believe only had 1 start this year)

Cotts has been a reliever all year, and I doubt his arm is stretched out enough to start. He'd have to work his way up to being able to go deep in games. By the time he's able to go six or seven innings, the season will be over. It would be a waste of time.

CubKilla
08-21-2004, 11:40 PM
I don't know about you but Im a little sick of seeing Harris popping upI'm sick and tired of Harris PERIOD!

Come to think of it, I'm sick of the Alomar's, Everett, Judy, Crede, Jackson, Cotts, and KW. Borchard's close to the list as well.

And.... oh yeah..... SELL JR SELL!

skobabe8
08-22-2004, 03:44 AM
I don't know about you but Im a little sick of seeing Harris popping up
I'm sick of seeing all of these fools pop up. Sometimes I wished we played in the polo grounds, so no one would swing for the fences. We would be awesome!!!

skobabe8
08-22-2004, 03:54 AM
you cant fire 25 players
You don't need to. There are some bright spots on this team.

gosox41
08-22-2004, 08:52 AM
Other teams don't find a way to win when they lose what we lost. It just doesn't happen. Thomas was leading the league in on-base. Nobody else on the team was within .050 that I know of. And you lose a 100 rbi gut to boot in Maggs. Those two were the only reason this was a good lineup. We don't have any speed or on base ability, so without them we're basically a mediocre hitting team. On top of that we have a shoddy bullpen and an overall mediocre starting 5. Three good guys, one incosistent little s### and a AA 5th starter doesn't equal a good rotation. We're a mediocre team, period. This is what we should've excpected when Frank and Maggs went down. If we had been built right with some speed and what not, we could overcome the injuries, but our entire game was predicated on Thomas and Maggs crushing the ball.

This pretty much sums up why I don't think KW is that good of a GM. There's no depth on this team. And before I hear about limited payrolls, remember there is an unbalanced schedule and the 2 teams in front of the Sox have spent a lot less then the Sox have.

But that's KW's problem. He hasn't solved any problems or holes on this team. Sure a trade like Miles for Uribe is a nice trade because you get a yonuger guy who can play SS. But Uribe can't hit. He's more of a utility player then anything. Same thing with Gload, Burke, Perez, Sandy Alomar and possible Willie Harris. They're nothing special at all.

Outside of losing Reed and Rauch the Sox haven't lost anything significant from their farm system. But before we all get too excited about getting veterans for not much talent, there's also nothing in our farm system who is close to making a positive impact on the Sox. I remember reading threads last year about how good our upper minor leagues were going to be becuase we had all this talent on them. People were all excited about Borchard, Reed, Honel, Pacheco (or however you spell it), Diaz, and Munoz all on the same team. How's that working out? Reed is gone for Garcia, which is fine. I still support Borchard, but he hasn't been impressive. Honel is hurt (what is the stat about kids drafted at 18 generally throwing 10 MPH slower in 5 years?)

And don't get me started on Diaz. Is this KW's idea of player development? People didn't want to waste valuable options on Borchard/Reed when Magglio first got hurt, but Diaz has been sent down 4 times thsi year. A good way to develop a young pitchers confindence is to use him inconsistently, give him a sport start or 2, and keep shuttling him down to the minors.


Bob

cubhater
08-22-2004, 10:13 AM
OK- you have legitimate reason to criticize KW on this year's pitching staff- IIRC our opening day rotation was Buerhle, Loaiza, Garland, Schoney, Wright (how brutal is that?), but you can't tell me he hasn't solidified that rotation for not only this year, but for the next several years, and put the team in position of really needing one more good starter to really have a formidable rotation. Yeah, the 5th starter spot has been a fiasco, but I don't know of too many teams in the majors who haven't had problems with coming up with a solid 5 man rotation, except maybe the Cubs who apparently have 5 No. 1 starters, or so we're all told.
The bullpen is a mess, and he was foolish for letting guys like Flash and Scott Sullivan go, but hindsight is 20/20, and you can sign all the bullpen help you want, but like I said earlier, without your 3 and 4 hitters for the stretch run, you're really going to be in for a world of hurt...
Right on! Our pitching staff was mediocre at best when the season started but I feel good about our top three starters for 2005. KW should spend the offseason dumping the pen except for Cotts (he's still learning), Marte, and Shingo. The losses of Mags and Frank killed us.

Iguana775
08-22-2004, 10:59 AM
wait tillnext season
so we are turning in to the cubs now? that's been their motto for years...

StepsInSC
08-22-2004, 11:17 AM
Imagine the Red Sox without Trot Nixon (5th in the AL in OPS last year) and Nomar most of the season. Oh yeah, that happened. And they are still in the Wild Card lead.

Nixon and Nomar? Bah. Us losing Maggs and Hurt is more like the Red Sox losing Ortiz and Ramirez, something I doubt they would be able to overcome.

soxwon
08-22-2004, 11:31 AM
so we are turning in to the cubs now? that's been their motto for years...
I MEANT WAIT TILL NEXT SEASON WITH THE FOLLOWING LINEUP.
IHAVENT GIVEN UP TOTALLY THIS YEAR.

Wealz
08-22-2004, 11:48 AM
Certainly the injuries to Thomas and Ordonez are responsible for this year's failures. Big picture though is it's a pretty sorry supporting cast that KW has built around an aging DH and soon-to-be-free-agent RF'er.

batmanZoSo
08-22-2004, 11:59 AM
This pretty much sums up why I don't think KW is that good of a GM. There's no depth on this team. And before I hear about limited payrolls, remember there is an unbalanced schedule and the 2 teams in front of the Sox have spent a lot less then the Sox have.

But that's KW's problem. He hasn't solved any problems or holes on this team. Sure a trade like Miles for Uribe is a nice trade because you get a yonuger guy who can play SS. But Uribe can't hit. He's more of a utility player then anything. Same thing with Gload, Burke, Perez, Sandy Alomar and possible Willie Harris. They're nothing special at all.

Outside of losing Reed and Rauch the Sox haven't lost anything significant from their farm system. But before we all get too excited about getting veterans for not much talent, there's also nothing in our farm system who is close to making a positive impact on the Sox. I remember reading threads last year about how good our upper minor leagues were going to be becuase we had all this talent on them. People were all excited about Borchard, Reed, Honel, Pacheco (or however you spell it), Diaz, and Munoz all on the same team. How's that working out? Reed is gone for Garcia, which is fine. I still support Borchard, but he hasn't been impressive. Honel is hurt (what is the stat about kids drafted at 18 generally throwing 10 MPH slower in 5 years?)

And don't get me started on Diaz. Is this KW's idea of player development? People didn't want to waste valuable options on Borchard/Reed when Magglio first got hurt, but Diaz has been sent down 4 times thsi year. A good way to develop a young pitchers confindence is to use him inconsistently, give him a sport start or 2, and keep shuttling him down to the minors.


Bob


KW just isn't a miracle worker and it sounds like that's what you wish he could be. We were built around Frank and Maggs when he got here. The only way for him to change our team philosophy is to run those two out of town, which no GM would do. But I know he's had enough of the Konerko/Valentin/Crede show and I would expect big changes this offseason. It's painfully obvious that this group is not cutting it and will never go anywhere. He wanted grinders last year but too many pieces were still in place for him to shake anything up, i.e. Maggs still signed, Koch and Valentin still here. Now with those three likely to be history, he can act on his grinder talk.

dickallen15
08-22-2004, 12:59 PM
KW just isn't a miracle worker and it sounds like that's what you wish he could be. We were built around Frank and Maggs when he got here. The only way for him to change our team philosophy is to run those two out of town, which no GM would do. But I know he's had enough of the Konerko/Valentin/Crede show and I would expect big changes this offseason. It's painfully obvious that this group is not cutting it and will never go anywhere. He wanted grinders last year but too many pieces were still in place for him to shake anything up, i.e. Maggs still signed, Koch and Valentin still here. Now with those three likely to be history, he can act on his grinder talk.He invoked the diminished skills clause in Thomas' contract, he had Magglio traded to Boston. Saying no GM would run those two out of town is inaccurate. KW wanted to and tried.

santo=dorf
08-22-2004, 01:31 PM
Nice job of moving the goalposts on that question. Nobody mentionmed a thing about payroll or even making the playoffs, only asking for an example of a team that lost two "All-Star" players and is still getting results. The Angels are an obvious example.

Don't you think it's more likely that a team with a higher payroll will have more great players than a team witha lower payroll? :?: The Angels have more All-Stars PERIOD than the Sox.

santo=dorf
08-22-2004, 01:34 PM
Nixon and Nomar? Bah. Us losing Maggs and Hurt is more like the Red Sox losing Ortiz and Ramirez, something I doubt they would be able to overcome.

Not to mention they have the second highest payroll in the MLB at 135 million. But of course, that means nothing.

OurBitchinMinny
08-22-2004, 03:16 PM
I really don't care that he "wants to win", name me a GM who doesn't. For example, he talks a great game about players playing hard, etc, etc, then he acquires the dog of all dogs, Robbie Alomar, not once but twice.

The job has gotten too big for this guy.
Id rather have KW then most GMs out there. Imagine if he were the GM of a team who spent like their market says they should. Most GMs dont care as much as he does. He goes out and tries to make things happen. What the hell is he supposed to do when JR imposes a payroll like he has a team in des moines. The sox should be spending almost as much, if not as much as the scrubs. 80-100 mill. I know they never will. And how many of his trades have really gone that bad. The deal with pittsburgh was bad, but wells and fogg havent won too many cy youngs since then. What players that he traded have done a whole lot yet? The only one I can think of is the reliever in texas and he will be caught on to as he throws a lot of straight fastballs. He has made more good deals than bad deals. He didnt injure maggs or thomas.

EMel9281
08-22-2004, 04:39 PM
To be completely honest, I would rather have KW making moves than Schuler (spelling?) sitting on his hands doing nothing. KW's trades made you talk, made you wonder. Ronny just left you with a "what the hell?" sort of feeling. Granted, some of KW's traded give you that feeling, too, but at least he is looking for something that he thinks would make the team better than keeping it status quo.

balke
08-22-2004, 07:32 PM
Interesting replies. Don't you guys see this nucleus is going nowhere. They've failed a few times now, and they're getting older. They've shown little in terms of 'fire' and almost always lose the big game.

This team won't win anything until we gut it and start over. I can't believe so many of you are holding on to the possibility that after years of mediocrity, these guys are just going to turn a switch and become championship material.
Sure, they might be a playoff team? But a World Series team? No way.

Right now, there are some guys with high levels of value. Guys like Rowand , Takatsu, Lee, Konerko and Garcia could all reap impressive returns. Rebuilding now would only take a year or two tops. And we could still be competitive while we do it.
Rowand is exactly the kind of player we'd be trying to trade for... We aren't as bad as the pirate organization either, we can afford to keep a few names. If you were to gut the veterans, fine... that's natural. But why give up Lee or Davis or Rowand? Fans turn on you If you lose all your Faces. You'd have to keep at least one of Either Thomas or Maggs or Lee IMO. Or elseThis already dwindling attendance would drop to Expos or last years marlins levels...

PaleHoseGeorge
08-22-2004, 07:48 PM
Personally, I'm listening closely to the Oracle of Reinsdorphi. I suspect he'll have some interesting tidbits about ol' Jon Garland in the final weeks of the season -- none of them boding well for Jon-boy's future with the Sox.
:cool:

:hawk
"Well DJ, that's another walk given up by Jon Garland after having the hitter down 0-2 in the count. Mercy..."

:hawk
"That was *not* a good performance by Jon Garland we just saw..."

:hawk
"This team cannot win when Jon Garland pitches like this."

:reinsy
"Here's another cue card, Scott. Make sure Hawk gets it before Garland gets chased the next half-inning."

Mohoney
08-22-2004, 09:11 PM
Here's what I would do:

I would basically start again. I would put EVERYONE on the market. The only guys I would insist upon keeping is Crede and Garland.

You just lost me.

owensmouth
08-22-2004, 09:36 PM
You want a younger SS? How about Edgar Renteria? If they can't resign Maggs how about using some of the money towards this guy. Anyone know how old Edgar is?
You havw to MAKE the money before you have it to spend. No Maggs, fewer wins. Fewer wins, less money, therefore, no money to spend. Besides, Reneria will never sign with the White Sox if they don't have Magglio.

Let's see, the Cardinals are 40 wins over .500. The Sox are (as of right now) .500.

Grab some reality. Renteria isn't going to be on the south side. Nobody of any value is coming to the south side if the White Sox don't first show there's any chance to win, immediately.

Dan H
08-22-2004, 09:56 PM
First thing, I'd stop kidding myself. Injuries or no injuries this team hasn't done it. Some major changes have to be made or we will spend more time looking up at the Minnesota Twins. This is pathetic.

Tragg
08-22-2004, 09:59 PM
It will be a real test of the ability of Kenny Williams this off season. Look back historically to what Roland Hemond was able to accomplish during the winter of 1970 - 1971 when he gutted the Sox and rebuilt them overnight. His philosophy was that he was going to get two good players for every one he traded...and he did.


Lip
That's interesting, although an argument could be made that the team was basically a 1 man team: Dick Allen. They certainly were improved all around (from 56 wins in 1970), but what made them a 500+ team was Dick. And when he got hurt in 1973 with the Sox playing great, we completely tanked.

Williams' history has been to do the opposite of what you suggest- trade a bunch of players for 1 player he thinks is real good

owensmouth
08-22-2004, 10:08 PM
That's interesting, although an argument could be made that the team was basically a 1 man team: Dick Allen. They certainly were improved all around (from 56 wins in 1970), but what made them a 500+ team was Dick. And when he got hurt in 1973 with the Sox playing great, we completely tanked.

Williams' history has been to do the opposite of what you suggest- trade a bunch of players for 1 player he thinks is real good
Williams believes in trading youth for experience. This is almost always a death wish. In the past it has cost us badly. Probably will again.

A. Cavatica
08-22-2004, 11:26 PM
wait tillnext season

1b carlos lee
2b willie
ss uribe
3b crede
rfborchard
cf beltran
lf rowand
dh frank
c ben

p buehrle-garcia-clement-contreras-garland
Ugh. This team would lose 90 games.

misty60481
08-22-2004, 11:30 PM
Willie Harris is not a major league ball player why does Ozzie keep putting him in??

batmanZoSo
08-22-2004, 11:34 PM
I'm sick of seeing all of these fools pop up. Sometimes I wished we played in the polo grounds, so no one would swing for the fences. We would be awesome!!!
No, Konerko and the gang would try to hook it around that 270 foot pole in left. Willie would start wearing gold chains with big HR diamond pendants and calling himself Captain Home Run. (sorry, couldn't think of a funnier name..):supernana:

Lip Man 1
08-22-2004, 11:46 PM
Tragg:

Dick wasn't with the Sox until 1972. Look at the complementary players Hemond got after the disaster of 1970.

Just off the top of my head: Luis Alvarado, Mike Andrews, Jay Johnstone, Rick Reichardt, Tom Egen, Tom Bradley, Ed ' The Creeper' Stroud, Tony Muser and Vincente Romo.

The foundation of that 72 team was laid in the winter of 1970 / 71.

Alvarado, Andrews, Johnstone and Reichardt were already established players and Hemond got them for ca-ca like Jerry Janeski, Syd O'Brien and John 'The Pineapple' Mathias.

And in 1973 the Sox used the disabled list 38 times. It wasn't only Allen's injury. It was serious injuries to Ken Henderson and Brian Downing and smaller injuries to guys like Melton, May and Kelly.

And don't forget that idiot G.M. Stu Holcomb playing 'hard ball' contract wise with guys like Andrews, Johnstone, Reichardt and Ed Spezio. They were all waived...not even attempted to be traded! So that when the injuries happened the Sox were left with slugs like John Jeter, Rich Morales and Chuck Brinkman.

Lip

MikeW
08-23-2004, 12:00 AM
Making Wilbur Wood a starter made a big difference, but pitching him almost every third day hurt us.Got Bahnsen for Mckinney. Gave away Reichardt, Andrews and Johnstone as salary dumps. Then when we were desperate for a starter the best we could come up with was Eddie Fisher. If Melton doesn't fall off a ladder in the winter of 1971 then that 1972 season could have been special.

StockdaleForVeep
08-23-2004, 03:22 AM
Let's blow this thing up before the final trade deadline! I say we dump Alomar and just play Willie full time, how can it hurt?? Trade Everett to a contender who can use another bat, like Atlanta and play Gload at the DH.
Go bcak to a 5 man rotation so we don't annihalate our pitchers arms...and start checking those free agent lists for next year!!!
:threadsucks

jordan23ventura
08-23-2004, 04:01 AM
:threadsucks
Why? This season is in the bag. There's no use wasting the rest of it. Start chopping the roster. Give guys some serious opportunites. I for one am not going to call Harris a bust yet, he hasn't had a full season to develop. Play Crede every day to hopefully put up a few more HR's for next years trade talks, let Robbie and Sandy coach, and play Borchard, Harris, Gload, and Uribe. Paulie can DH a few games, I want to see more of Ross at 1B. Let Diaz take the 5 spot, just like posted earlier, and bring up a guy or two from AA or AAA if KW thinks anyone is close to being ready.

Once again, this season is OVER. Let's try to go into next year with as few question marks as possible.

wdelaney72
08-23-2004, 09:27 AM
This thread DOES NOT SUCK. I completely agree. The seasons over. Dump the vets that should not be around next year (Jose, Everett, Robbie).


Why? This season is in the bag. There's no use wasting the rest of it. Start chopping the roster. Give guys some serious opportunites. I for one am not going to call Harris a bust yet, he hasn't had a full season to develop. Play Crede every day to hopefully put up a few more HR's for next years trade talks, let Robbie and Sandy coach, and play Borchard, Harris, Gload, and Uribe. Paulie can DH a few games, I want to see more of Ross at 1B. Let Diaz take the 5 spot, just like posted earlier, and bring up a guy or two from AA or AAA if KW thinks anyone is close to being ready.

Once again, this season is OVER. Let's try to go into next year with as few question marks as possible.

samram
08-23-2004, 09:38 AM
This thread DOES NOT SUCK. I completely agree. The seasons over. Dump the vets that should not be around next year (Jose, Everett, Robbie).
I liked the Alomar acquisition because they gave up so little, but he looks like he's making an effort to not care. Whether it's his weak swing and jog to 1B with visions of being able to sit in the dugout dancing in his head, or his bone-headed baserunning last night, he's not adding anything to the team.

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 10:32 AM
I'm sick of seeing all of these fools pop up. Sometimes I wished we played in the polo grounds, so no one would swing for the fences. We would be awesome!!!

Are you kidding me? we can't even bunt guys over. We should move the fences in to meet little league regulations. I'm sick of seeing all of these warning track outs.

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 10:40 AM
If I were General Manager, the following would take place:

1. Jose Valentin would be set free.
2. Robbie Alomar would be set free.
3. Carl Everett would be set free.
4. Mike Jackson would be set free.
5. Ken Harrelson would be set free.

Then I would start moving some guys who have a high value right now (Konerko, Takatsu), and guys who are still deemed to have some potential (Garland comes to mind) in order to acquire some bullpen help as well as roster depth. Either sign Ordonez or if not him - get a free agent who can hit.

1B - Thomas
2B - Harris
SS - Need
3b - Crede
C- Davis (but get a solid defensive back-up)
LF - Lee
CF - Rowand
RF - Ordonez or a free agent
Staff - Buhrle, Garcia, Contreras, Cotts and a pick-up.
Bullpen - Politte, Marte, Adkins and some help.

I then suspect with a healthy Thomas, Lee and whomever in right that the White Sox would have enough power, with Rowand and Harris they have enough speed, the defense wouldn't completely suck, and you could concentrate on filling a couple of holes rather than five or six of them. I think you could get something decent as a fifth starter by trading Garland or Konerko, and who knows what Takatsu can get you. You'll probably need to sign a closer.

With the addition of Pat Foley as the play-by-play announcer you would also have an immediate surge in television ratings and overall fan interest.

gosox41
08-23-2004, 11:05 AM
KW just isn't a miracle worker and it sounds like that's what you wish he could be. We were built around Frank and Maggs when he got here. The only way for him to change our team philosophy is to run those two out of town, which no GM would do. But I know he's had enough of the Konerko/Valentin/Crede show and I would expect big changes this offseason. It's painfully obvious that this group is not cutting it and will never go anywhere. He wanted grinders last year but too many pieces were still in place for him to shake anything up, i.e. Maggs still signed, Koch and Valentin still here. Now with those three likely to be history, he can act on his grinder talk.
A couple of points:
1. He did try to run Magglio out of town last off season and he also exercised Frank's diminished skills clause a couple of years ago with the goal of running him out of town. So he is one GM that doesn't see value in great players.

2. I expected major changes after 2001, 2002 and definitely 2003. PK was signed to an extension by KW and the Sox chose to pick up Valentin's option.


Bob

Etownsox13
08-23-2004, 11:14 AM
What we really need to do is to have a few good drafts of low risk type prospects. Then we need to bring them up through the system together, much the way that the Twins have done.

Etownsox13
08-23-2004, 11:16 AM
If I were General Manager, the following would take place:

1. Jose Valentin would be set free.
2. Robbie Alomar would be set free.
3. Carl Everett would be set free.
4. Mike Jackson would be set free.
5. Ken Harrelson would be set free.

Then I would start moving some guys who have a high value right now (Konerko, Takatsu), and guys who are still deemed to have some potential (Garland comes to mind) in order to acquire some bullpen help as well as roster depth. Either sign Ordonez or if not him - get a free agent who can hit.

1B - Thomas
2B - Harris
SS - Need
3b - Crede
C- Davis (but get a solid defensive back-up)
LF - Lee
CF - Rowand
RF - Ordonez or a free agent
Staff - Buhrle, Garcia, Contreras, Cotts and a pick-up.
Bullpen - Politte, Marte, Adkins and some help.

I then suspect with a healthy Thomas, Lee and whomever in right that the White Sox would have enough power, with Rowand and Harris they have enough speed, the defense wouldn't completely suck, and you could concentrate on filling a couple of holes rather than five or six of them. I think you could get something decent as a fifth starter by trading Garland or Konerko, and who knows what Takatsu can get you. You'll probably need to sign a closer.

With the addition of Pat Foley as the play-by-play announcer you would also have an immediate surge in television ratings and overall fan interest.

Pat Foley is a great announcer, but he hasn't done anything for the Hawks fan interest or tv ratings.

JDP
08-23-2004, 11:19 AM
That huge SS prospect, Need, is gonna be big. Big, big things down the wire about good 'ol Need.

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 11:45 AM
Pat Foley is a great announcer, but he hasn't done anything for the Hawks fan interest or tv ratings.
While one could easily look at the situation of the Blackhawks and make that claim, one should also look at the reasons underlying the lack of Blackhawks popularity.

If Wirtz were to televise home games (as the White Sox do), and be a consistent .500 team (as the White Sox generally are), and keep at least one or two stars around from year to year (Thomas et al) then the Blackhawks would be wildly popular - and Foley would be a great representative.

The Blackhawks are the Tampa Bay Devil Rays of the NHL - no announcer could make them popular.

Put Foley in the White Sox booth though, and I guarantee you that in a few years Harrelson will be nothing more than an answer in a bar room trivia question.

JRIG
08-23-2004, 12:12 PM
To be completely honest, I would rather have KW making moves than Schuler (spelling?) sitting on his hands doing nothing. KW's trades made you talk, made you wonder. Ronny just left you with a "what the hell?" sort of feeling. Granted, some of KW's traded give you that feeling, too, but at least he is looking for something that he thinks would make the team better than keeping it status quo.
To be completely honest, I'd rather have the two (maybe 3 -- 1994) division championship Ron Schueler brought us than "talking and wondering" about KW's moves.

Randar68
08-23-2004, 12:16 PM
To be completely honest, I'd rather have the two (maybe 3 -- 1994) division championship Ron Schueler brought us than "talking and wondering" about KW's moves.Easy to live off Larry Himes' players, wasn't it?

Remind me again how the post-strike years fared when Schueler was in charge of drafting or signing people....

gosox41
08-23-2004, 12:23 PM
To be completely honest, I would rather have KW making moves than Schuler (spelling?) sitting on his hands doing nothing. KW's trades made you talk, made you wonder. Ronny just left you with a "what the hell?" sort of feeling. Granted, some of KW's traded give you that feeling, too, but at least he is looking for something that he thinks would make the team better than keeping it status quo.
I know there were a lot of faults with Schueler, especially towards then end of his reign when he married his golf clubs. But overall, I don't think he was worse then Kenny, in fact he may have been better in some areas

Sure he has his faults like drafting the Mark Johnson's of the world and drafting his daughter (even if it was with the 50th round or whatever) but comapre that to KW's drafts.

I mean KW drafted his own son to get him a better scholarship chance in the late rounds. In regards to signabilitiy neither Schu's daughter nor Williams son is going to sign a contract in with the Sox in the year they were drafted. So if you're going to talk about wasting a pick, KW did the exact same thing but more so for personal gain so he can save some $$$ from college expenses.

But Schu was the guyu who went out and got guys like Raines, Burks, Belcher, and Franco to more then adequately fill holes. In the same time 4 years into the KW era, and the core of players of everyone keeps talking about came up through the Schu era (with the exception of Thomas):

PK
Ordonez
Lee
Buehrle
Crede
Garland

and guys no longer with the team that were stars like Durham and Foulke. All those guys are here because of Schueler. And wasn't it Schueler who fleeced Miwlaukee for Cal Eldred and Jose Valentin? That was an actual lopsided trade in the Sox favor

So my point isn't that Schueler was a great GM..farm from it. But I still think he is better then KW.


Bob

poorme
08-23-2004, 12:28 PM
Will it ever be KW's fault? I don't hate the guy, but jeez, 4 years and we're going nowhere.

Jamieboy
08-23-2004, 12:32 PM
The thought of trading Frank Thomas is ludacris. Despite the fact it might be hard trading a 36 year old DH who will be making 8mil next year, Frank Thomas is basically the greatest hitter to ever play on the WhiteSox. Now sure here and there Frank has said something a little selfish, but is Frank a selfish player, no. Frank plays to win, and he's shown he'll play hurt if he has to. Now when Frank went down, he was still 1st in the league OBP and 5th in slugging. And that was after a month of playing in such pain that killed his ability to really drive the ball. It makes a lot more sense to keep Frank around at 8mil then to keep Maggs around at 14-15 mil. Let Jose and Maggs go, try to try Crede away, and sign solid guys at 3rd and RF, and maybe use the leftover money on a setup man. Possible guys at 3rd include Troy Glaus and Cory Koskie, minnesota is basically letting Koskie go, so Sox could really use him. I'd prefer Glaus, more star player, could put people in the seats, price could be a little steap tho. In RF, we could go with young prospects such as Borchard or Alex Escobar, or go for a bargain OF. Perhaps pony up cash for JD Drew?, Geoff Jenkins will be a FA, he certainly won't be making 8mil next year like he is now, Jenkins in his down years puts up solid numbers, gives a lot of effort, and in his good years would really compliment the team, plus left handed power bat, replaces Jose's in lineup. Even more bargain, say Raul Mondesi. I like Maggs, but at 14-15 mil anually, I don't think so. His numbers aren't up there. So let Jose and Maggs go, hope Reinsdorf greenlights some funds, and pick up solid pieces at 3rd and RF, and move Uribe to SS. And everybody bashes the hell outta Roberto Alomar. First the guy is a hall of famer. Second, he was hitting over .290 in Arizona when we got him, unfortunately things aren't working out well. One reason could be inconsistent at bats.

RKMeibalane
08-23-2004, 12:34 PM
They've had the highest payroll in their division in at least 3 of Williams' 4 years though.
Keep in mind that the Sox play in the American League Central. Saying that they have the largest payroll in the division is like saying that five-foot tall person is tall, because he's standing in a room full of toddlers. Compared to other teams in big markets, the Sox have one of the smallest payrolls in baseball. That is the standard by which their bidget should be judged.

EMel9281
08-23-2004, 12:41 PM
I think this offseaon will be the determining factor of KW's status as a GM. It will be either sink or swim this offseason. I think everyone is expecting some big changes, and he probably will make some big changes. However, if those changes are for the worse or changes that nobody wants made, his days as GM could be numbered, especially if the Sox don't win next year. I, too, am fed up with the years of mediocrity under KW. Since 2001, the Sox were almost always the favorites to win the division, and, every year, the Sox have failed to live up to those expectations. I know KW isn't out there playing the game, so it's entirely not his fault. But, he does have those players that are not performing on the team.

Also, to Ozzie's credit and discredit, he had a moment of wisdom last night when he pinch hit for Borchard. Thank God! When the players were being introduced in the beginning of the game, I cheered for everyone, but him. Time to say "bye-bye" to Borchard. On the other hand, Ozzie should NOT have let Valentin hit against Myers. Why would you leave Mr. Strikeout in against a left when you don't play him against starting lefties. Uribe was on the bench. What the heck?

Okay, enough complaining, ok, well just one more...

How many times to I have to be reminded not to run onto the field during the game? And, why can't the Sox read cue cards and look at the camera at the same time? When they are reading off the list of rules and stuff before the game starts, they look stupid when you can tell their eyes move from the camera to the cue card, especially Frank.

That is all.

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 12:46 PM
To be completely honest, I'd rather have the two (maybe 3 -- 1994) division championship Ron Schueler brought us than "talking and wondering" about KW's moves.

You KW bashers are so one sided. When the team doesn't live up to expectations, you blame the GM, not the underachieving players or inexperienced managers. When the team accompishes something, you credit the GM first, no credit what so ever to any of the players on those teams or the managers. :booty:

What was the rank of the Sox payroll in the early-90's?

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 12:53 PM
http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/archive/index.php/t-13330.html

Hey KW Bashers, read that.

Williams said he appreciated Schueler's assistance, particularly when Williams was farm director.

"Absolutely, Schu helped me,'' Williams said. "We worked closely together then while showing me a great amount of what goes into scouting, and then again in the offseason as general manager. He was right in the middle of preparation for the '02 season.''

Schueler outlined his concerns to Reinsdorf after deciding to move up his departure date before the end of October. He stressed the importance of background checks on players under consideration to be acquired who either have character flaws or have seen better days.

He excluded pitcher Todd Ritchie, who was acquired by Williams last winter from the Pirates in the controversial deal that sent Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Sean Lowe to Pittsburgh."I was behind that trade,'' Schueler said, "although I didn't feel it was necessary for us to give them the kid [Fogg]. We felt we could straighten out Todd's mechanics, but it didn't happen. I still think he can be a good pitcher.''

JRIG
08-23-2004, 12:55 PM
You KW bashers are so one sided. When the team doesn't live up to expectations, you blame the GM, not the underachieving players or inexperienced managers. When the team accompishes something, you credit the GM first, no credit what so ever to any of the players on those teams or the managers. :booty:

What was the rank of the Sox payroll in the early-90's?
Wait a sec...

So when the White Sox underachieve and are filled with crappy players we blame the GM. And when the White Sox win and have players that contribute to victories and aren't all wshed-up veterans or never will-be bench players we...credit the GM! What a concept!

Basically our bottom line is constant -- the GM is responsible for the team. As opposed to KW apologists, for whom the blame is always laid at the feet of the manager or players and when things go good it's all KW's magically touch.

lowesox
08-23-2004, 12:57 PM
Mohoney wrote: You just lost me. In reply to: The only guys I would insist upon keeping is Crede and Garland. I'm not that big on keeping either of Garland or Crede. (Although, I think Crede might surprise us with another season under his belt - like Konerko did this year.) My point is, buying low - selling high. If we're going to build a championship team we need to be patient and calculated. There's no rush to get rid of these guys because chances are, we're not going to win next year anyway. So I think the thing to do is wait until they get hot then make a move. Similar to what Pittsburgh did with Kris Benson.

JRIG
08-23-2004, 12:58 PM
http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/archive/index.php/t-13330.html

Hey KW Bashers, read that.
So Schueler admits the Sox overpaid for a pitcher whom they knew was struggling, but hoped they could fix.

Well, that cinches it. This is the proof I was looking for that KW is a great GM.

RKMeibalane
08-23-2004, 01:02 PM
How many times to I have to be reminded not to run onto the field during the game? And, why can't the Sox read cue cards and look at the camera at the same time? When they are reading off the list of rules and stuff before the game starts, they look stupid when you can tell their eyes move from the camera to the cue card, especially Frank.
I'm not really sure what this has to do with the Sox ability to win the division, but considering how poorly this team has fared in the PR department in the past, I guess it's a legitimite complaint. :cool:

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 01:03 PM
Wait a sec...

Basically our bottom line is constant -- the GM is responsible for the team. As opposed to KW apologists, for whom the blame is always laid at the feet of the manager or players and when things go good it's all KW's magically touch.

If these teams are the best that KW can put together, I think it says something of what he is given to work with, and what he was given to him when he took the job, an overrated farm system.

:crede :manos :LTP :jon

"We suck this year, so let's blame KW."

Notice how all four are from the Schueler regime.

Wealz
08-23-2004, 01:04 PM
Basically our bottom line is constant -- the GM is responsible for the team. As opposed to KW apologists, for whom the blame is always laid at the feet of the manager or players and when things go good it's all KW's magically touch.
That's because Kenny Williams talks a great game. I thought White Sox fans were results oriented.

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 01:07 PM
So Schueler admits the Sox overpaid for a pitcher whom they knew was struggling, but hoped they could fix.

Well, that cinches it. This is the proof I was looking for that KW is a great GM.

And who was behind the move??? Notice how worried he was about Fogg. Ron sure knows talent when he sees it. I'm not proving KW is a great GM, I'm shooting down one more trade that every KW bashers refer to. If you want me to list all of the good moves KW has made, I'll be more than happy to.
:jaime

"Thanks for all of the money Ron!"

JRIG
08-23-2004, 01:09 PM
If these teams are the best that KW can put together, I think it says something of what he is given to work with, and what he was given to him when he took the job, an overrated farm system.

:crede :manos :LTP :jon

"We suck this year, so let's blame KW."

Notice how all four are from the Schueler regime.

[Kenny] Williams served as the club’s director of minor league operations from 1995-96 and was promoted to vice president of player development for four additional seasons (1997-2000).

So the overrated farm system was built in no small part due to...wait for it...Kenny Williams!

Williams picked up the huge option on Valentin.

Williams has refused to give up Borchard in any trades, calling him "untouchable."

Crede is a bust, no doubt about it. There's no much KW can do about that, I concede.

And I think most GMs would be thrilled to have Jon Garland in their rotation in a #4 role.

PatK
08-23-2004, 01:15 PM
One thing I don't get about this board, and the Chicago media, is the steadfast defense of Ken Williams.

I don't get it. They have consitently underachieved under his tenure. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he contemplating quitting after his son got in trouble with the law (or he at least hinted at quitting)?

It's funny seeing the results KW has gotten, while at the same time hearing people bitch about Jim Hendry, bigger payrolls, and Billy Beane. Yet those people have success. All we have is another year of sounding like Cubs fans with our "just wait till next year" bs.

jabrch
08-23-2004, 01:16 PM
Anyone see Esteban's recent performances? The Yanks are done with him already. They won't resign him at all. Contreras looks good to me.

Freddy and Ben both look good.

Shingo looks great.

etc. etc. etc.


No GM who makes as many moves as KW does will be 100%, but seeing how he hasn't traded away a single prospect who has yet to go on and be a star anywhere, and seeing how his only bad trade where he gave away talent was with Foulke (who was done here anyhow) I think he is much better than many of the options.

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 01:18 PM
So the overrated farm system was built in no small part due to...wait for it...Kenny Williams!

Williams picked up the huge option on Valentin.

Williams has refused to give up Borchard in any trades, calling him "untouchable."

Crede is a bust, no doubt about it. There's no much KW can do about that, I concede.

And I think most GMs would be thrilled to have Jon Garland in their rotation in a #4 role.

Was KW responsible alone for scouting Borchard? Who gave himm all of that money?

KW had no other options for SS other than Jose. Supposedly Jose was willing to take a paycut if he got a two year deal instead of a one year option. After his performance this year, I don't want to see Valentin on the team next year. Now if for some reason KW brings him back, then I will credit KW for two bad moves.
a. picking up his option
b. bringing him back.

Did any team show interest in Borchard before the trade deadline? Seattle wanted Crede over Reed, so we'll have to see how Reed pans out before we can judge that.

If any team is interested in Jon Garland I hope they plan on calling KW in the winter. He has been nothing but a .500 pitcher (actually sub-.500) and this guy was supposed to be our #3 this year. This team can't win anything with a sub-.500 pitcher at #3, and I'm not satisfied with a #4 going .500.

Wealz
08-23-2004, 01:21 PM
No GM who makes as many moves as KW does will be 100%, but seeing how he hasn't traded away a single prospect who has yet to go on and be a star anywhere, and seeing how his only bad trade where he gave away talent was with Foulke (who was done here anyhow) I think he is much better than many of the options.
Isn't it a red flag that none of these prospects he's traded away have amounted to anything?

gosox41
08-23-2004, 01:48 PM
Keep in mind that the Sox play in the American League Central. Saying that they have the largest payroll in the division is like saying that five-foot tall person is tall, because he's standing in a room full of toddlers. Compared to other teams in big markets, the Sox have one of the smallest payrolls in baseball. That is the standard by which their bidget should be judged.
I believe he Sox ranked 12th in opening day payrolls in 2004 and have since added to it. That's 12th out of 30 teams, not out of just the AL. If they're werent 12th, the were certianly in the top half and no where near the bottom like you claim. Don't let the facts get in the way.

Also, when playing an unbalanced schedule and you can't even beat the teams that have a lower payroll then you in your own division, it's hard to argue that having a higher payroll solves the problems.

I think the Indians payroll is $34 mill this year. Take Thomas and Ordonez off the Sox opening day payroll of $64 mill. and the Sox spend $42 mill. That's 20% more then the Indians. Who is higher in the standings? And that number doesn't even inculde the additions of Garcia and Everett which added some to the payroll.


Bob

Hangar18
08-23-2004, 01:52 PM
I believe he Sox ranked 12th in opening day payrolls in 2004 and have since added to it. That's 12th out of 30 teams, not out of just the AL. If they're werent 12th, the were certianly in the top half and no where near the bottom like you claim. Don't let the facts get in the way.

Also, when playing an unbalanced schedule and you can't even beat the teams that have a lower payroll then you in your own division, it's hard to argue that having a higher payroll solves the problems.

I think the Indians payroll is $34 mill this year. Take Thomas and Ordonez off the Sox opening day payroll of $64 mill. and the Sox spend $42 mill. That's 20% more then the Indians. Who is higher in the standings? And that number doesn't even inculde the additions of Garcia and Everett which added some to the payroll.


BobI hate these type of threads. Yes, Indians have 34Million. But for them to COMPETE next year, they will have to PAY to fill the holes they have Currently. They do that, this Indian team is going to be GOOD for a while, because theyre YOUNG NOW. A couple of years though...when this team Matures and these guys need Big Money to Stick Around....that PAYROLL WILL RISE ACCORDINGLY. This is where the SOX are currently. INstead of keeping team intact and Rolling with the salary raises due players, they Replace with cheaper substitutes ........... and NOT filling holes.
This is how a team DOESNT make the series ......................

gosox41
08-23-2004, 01:54 PM
You KW bashers are so one sided. When the team doesn't live up to expectations, you blame the GM, not the underachieving players or inexperienced managers. When the team accompishes something, you credit the GM first, no credit what so ever to any of the players on those teams or the managers. :booty:

What was the rank of the Sox payroll in the early-90's?
I don't blame the players because overall their not very good. Should I be booing Uribe for not hitting .300? How about Ross Gload? Is it Sandy's fault someone keeps offering him money to come back and play when he should have retired 4 years ago? Should I boo Stewart, Diaz, etc. for not being good fifth starters when they weren't even given fair shots? Should I boo Timo Perez because he is pretty much performing at the level he has his whole career and at best is nothing mroe then a 4th OF that's been forced to play a lot mroe then that? Is it Mike Jackson's fault he's old and still on the team? He can be released and substitued for.

It's hard to boo the guys who never had the talent to begin with. But I can certainly blame the person who brought them in and claims that the Sox have enough to win without Thomas and Ordonez.

Sure I'll boo guys like Roberto Alomar for not hustlingand having an attiutde problem or Ill occaisonally ride Valentin or Crede. But is it Valentin's fault that a contractual option at the clubs choices was excercised in his favor? He's trying, he's just not that good.



Bob

habibharu
08-23-2004, 01:58 PM
[QUOTE=santo=dorf]When the team accompishes something, you credit the GM first, no credit what so ever to any of the players on those teams or the managers.QUOTE] what has the team accomplished under KW? underachieving every year? tricking FOOLISH fans like myself into thinking that this team is gonna overtake the twins?

gosox41
08-23-2004, 01:59 PM
And who was behind the move??? Notice how worried he was about Fogg. Ron sure knows talent when he sees it. I'm not proving KW is a great GM, I'm shooting down one more trade that every KW bashers refer to. If you want me to list all of the good moves KW has made, I'll be more than happy to.
:jaime

"Thanks for all of the money Ron!"
Just list all the bad moves to. And while you're at it count all those moves that didn't quite happen even though KW did everything in his power to make then happen.

You know, moves like:

1. Trying to force Frank out.
2. Wanting to trade for Darin Erstad, which wa a done deal until Disney vetoed it. Both GM's thought it was a good deal for their respective teams.
3. Wanting to turn Magglio into Nomar and Juan Gonzalez, only to see it not happen because the Red Sox (not the White Sox) balked at the A-Rod trade.


And that's just the big one's. I don't have time right this second to go into every deal/contract signing he made that helped handcuff the team in the 2004 season.


But keep cheering for KW. Maybe the 5th time is a charm.



Bob

Wealz
08-23-2004, 02:00 PM
I hate these type of threads. Yes, Indians have 34Million. But for them to COMPETE next year, they will have to PAY to fill the holes they have Currently. They do that, this Indian team is going to be GOOD for a while, because theyre YOUNG NOW. A couple of years though...when this team Matures and these guys need Big Money to Stick Around....that PAYROLL WILL RISE ACCORDINGLY. This is where the SOX are currently. INstead of keeping team intact and Rolling with the salary raises due players, they Replace with cheaper substitutes ........... and NOT filling holes.
This is how a team DOESNT make the series ......................
The Sox would love to have players entering their primes who were worth paying this offseason.

Flight #24
08-23-2004, 02:16 PM
1B - Thomas
2B - Harris
SS - Need
3b - Crede
C- Davis (but get a solid defensive back-up)
LF - Lee
CF - Rowand
RF - Ordonez or a free agent
Staff - Buhrle, Garcia, Contreras, Cotts and a pick-up.
Bullpen - Politte, Marte, Adkins and some help.

I then suspect with a healthy Thomas, Lee and whomever in right that the White Sox would have enough power, with Rowand and Harris they have enough speed, the defense wouldn't completely suck, and you could concentrate on filling a couple of holes rather than five or six of them.
Let's see - you take a 280+lb guy, who hasn't played the field regularly in years and has had multiple ankle problems, you pencil him in as your everyday 1B, and then talk about what he'll do when healthy? There is virtually no way IMO that Frank makes it through a season as the fulltime 1B. Given his offensive impact on this team, there's no way he should do anything more than the minimum needed to be ready for interleague play. He's a DH, and that's where he's got to stay. To do otherwise is taking a huge risk, and given the White Sox luck, he'd be done for the year by May.

thepaulbowski
08-23-2004, 03:23 PM
These thread are getting really old.....

<enter beating the dead horse tag here>

Dadawg_77
08-23-2004, 03:34 PM
Keep Frank, you will not replace his production at a cheaper value unless some rookie steps up. He should split his time next year between first and DH.

Keep Jose, while he is lacking in several areas, replacing his power production will be hard for the SS spot. Plus there won't be a better alternative out there in the offseason. I think his June was a fluke so I wouldn't based anything on it.

Trade Konerko, his is at his upper range of production talent wise. I wouldn't expect him to keep up his production next year at this year's level. He could be able to net a good starting/bullpen pitcher next year.

Four man rotation next year. Start building up your pitchers arms for it now.
With this build pen that has pitcher who can go a couple of innings when needed. Adkins, Stewart and/or Cotts could fill this role. Also bring in a veteran who can go from pen to spot starter, if you can convince him to fill this role, Schoeneweis should be able to fill this spot. Keep Marte for the setup man role, find one or two other relievers to help for a inning. Put Shingo on the market and see if someone will overpay for him, if not keep him.

Crede, search for a better option. Maybe trade him or non tender him depending on what he is asking for in arbitration.

Construct a lineup and bench where the main focus is OBP. No more Timo Perezes, Borchards, Gloads, Alomars and Uribes.

pinwheels3530
08-23-2004, 03:51 PM
Frank is gonna be a Sox for life. Whether or not that's a good thing is the question.

I, for one, was getting real sick, real fast of his demands for a contract that gives him the respect he deserves(?).

Don't turn this into a bash Frank Thomas Thread, Mariotti!!!!:tsk:

PaulDrake
08-23-2004, 03:52 PM
One thing I don't get about this board, and the Chicago media, is the steadfast defense of Ken Williams.

I don't get it. They have consitently underachieved under his tenure. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he contemplating quitting after his son got in trouble with the law (or he at least hinted at quitting)?

It's funny seeing the results KW has gotten, while at the same time hearing people bitch about Jim Hendry, bigger payrolls, and Billy Beane. Yet those people have success. All we have is another year of sounding like Cubs fans with our "just wait till next year" bs. I'm at a loss too. Williams at best is a below par GM. This organization is lacking excellence from the top of the corporate pyramid to the bottom of the bush league. Williams is just more proof of this.

hold2dibber
08-23-2004, 04:09 PM
(The following assumes that Maggs walks; with his health so uncertain, I assume he's either physically unable or, if not, signs elsewhere)

1. Trade Konerko (I'd try to get Hairston and BJ Ryan from the Orioles) (net payroll decrease of about $5 million);
2. Let Valentin walk (payroll decrease $5 million);
3. Sign another bona fide starting pitcher (in order of preference: Pavano, Russ Ortiz, Odalis Perez, Clement) (payroll increase about $8 million);
4. Package Lee, Garland and Uribe to land a young, legit starting shortstop (I'd see if the Braves would give up Furcal and Reitsma for those 3) (probably a wash payroll-wise);
5. Sign Manciehvovicz (assuming he can be had for a reasonable price) (payroll increase about $3 million).

The $14 million saved by Maggs' departure that is basically offset by the combined salaries of Contreras and Garcia. Koch ($6.5 million) is off the books, but that is offset by about $3.5 million for Everett (net decrease is about $3 million). Overall I think the payroll stays about the same - but with raises due retained players, the payroll probably goes up about $6 or $8 million from the start of this year.

The team would be:

Furcal SS
Hairston 2B
Thomas DH
Everett LF
Rowand CF
Mancivizovich 1B
Crede 3B
Davis C
Borchard/Journey-Man FA signing LF

Rotation:

Garcia
Buehrle
Pavano/Ortiz, etc.
Contreras
Diaz/Cotts

Bullpen:

Takatsu
Reitsma
Ryan
Marte
Politte
Adkins
Diaz/Cotts

Great pitching, decent line-up (some speed, good lefty/righty balance, but probably a bit short on power with Lee, Konerko, Maggs and Valentin gone), exceptional infield defensively.

oldcomiskey
08-23-2004, 05:03 PM
He got 4M, 5M, and his option picked up at 5M.

I don't remember the exact numbers of Baltimore's offer, I do know it was a three year deal offered.
If memory serves, i believe Cleveland also offered him more money as well in 2000

oldcomiskey
08-23-2004, 05:09 PM
[QUOTE=Lip Man 1]Tragg:


Just off the top of my head: Luis Alvarado, Mike Andrews, Jay Johnstone, Rick Reichardt, Tom Egen, Tom Bradley, Ed ' The Creeper' Stroud, Tony Muser and Vincente Romo.

The foundation of that 72 team was laid in the winter of 1970 / 71.

Lip, the only foundation laid ny Alverado was put in a garden a few years later to grow tomatoes---the guy admiited he was afraid of ground balls--and we traded Apericio from him and Andrews if memory serves

oldcomiskey
08-23-2004, 05:15 PM
With the addition of Pat Foley as the play-by-play announcer you would also have an immediate surge in television ratings and overall fan interest.
just because you dont like Hawk dont mean everybody would rave after Foley--I think HaWK IS THE best local announcer there is.. Whose better?

Flight #24
08-23-2004, 05:22 PM
Just list all the bad moves to. And while you're at it count all those moves that didn't quite happen even though KW did everything in his power to make then happen.

You know, moves like:

1. Trying to force Frank out.
2. Wanting to trade for Darin Erstad, which wa a done deal until Disney vetoed it. Both GM's thought it was a good deal for their respective teams.
3. Wanting to turn Magglio into Nomar and Juan Gonzalez, only to see it not happen because the Red Sox (not the White Sox) balked at the A-Rod trade.


And that's just the big one's. I don't have time right this second to go into every deal/contract signing he made that helped handcuff the team in the 2004 season.


But keep cheering for KW. Maybe the 5th time is a charm.



Bob
Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the time, wasn't the alternatie to exercising the DSC keeping Frank at a pretty high salary (something like $10mil+)? I'm a huge Frank fan, but without knowing what KW was going to do with that $$$ it's impossible to know if it would have been good for the team overall. Maybe he'd have shifted Lee to DH and signed a high-OBP OF AND a solid starting pitcher. Who knows? But you can't say if it would have been good or bad for the team without looking at the whole picture.

As for Erstad, let's see - give up Jon Garland (who many around here are ready to waive), pick up a lefty first baseman with a decent stick (at the time, not so much now)-->Isn't that the type of move that people are clamoring for now? I've seen a lot of Mientkieisiowiciz's name tossed around, Erstad's better than him.

On to Maggs-Nomar....isn't one big complaint from some that KW didnt' get Nomar in the absence of Frank & Maggs? That SS is a problem area for us? How about the fact that as part of the overall Maggs-Nomar package, Jose was supposedly involved in a trade for Garcia? I'd take Nomar+Garcia over Maggs+Jose. Again - you can't pick out one side of a "supposed" move without also including the compensatory moves that would have been made.

The fact is that KW put together a very good team on a reasonable budget. The budget necessitates one of 2 approaches: a lot of solid, but unspectacular players, or a more top-heavy/bottom-light lineup. The former works well and can maintain in the face of injury better. The latter has a much harder time overcoming key injuries, but is actually a better team if healthy.

lowesox
08-23-2004, 05:52 PM
(The following assumes that Maggs walks; with his health so uncertain, I assume he's either physically unable or, if not, signs elsewhere)

1. Trade Konerko (I'd try to get Hairston and BJ Ryan from the Orioles) (net payroll decrease of about $5 million);
2. Let Valentin walk (payroll decrease $5 million);
3. Sign another bona fide starting pitcher (in order of preference: Pavano, Russ Ortiz, Odalis Perez, Clement) (payroll increase about $8 million);
4. Package Lee, Garland and Uribe to land a young, legit starting shortstop (I'd see if the Braves would give up Furcal and Reitsma for those 3) (probably a wash payroll-wise);
5. Sign Manciehvovicz (assuming he can be had for a reasonable price) (payroll increase about $3 million).

The $14 million saved by Maggs' departure that is basically offset by the combined salaries of Contreras and Garcia. Koch ($6.5 million) is off the books, but that is offset by about $3.5 million for Everett (net decrease is about $3 million). Overall I think the payroll stays about the same - but with raises due retained players, the payroll probably goes up about $6 or $8 million from the start of this year.

The team would be:

Furcal SS
Hairston 2B
Thomas DH
Everett LF
Rowand CF
Mancivizovich 1B
Crede 3B
Davis C
Borchard/Journey-Man FA signing LF

Rotation:

Garcia
Buehrle
Pavano/Ortiz, etc.
Contreras
Diaz/Cotts

Bullpen:

Takatsu
Reitsma
Ryan
Marte
Politte
Adkins
Diaz/Cotts

Great pitching, decent line-up (some speed, good lefty/righty balance, but probably a bit short on power with Lee, Konerko, Maggs and Valentin gone), exceptional infield defensively.
I actually like a lot of what you wrote, but I hate the Mentkieawfejaz part. He's one of the players I hate the most in baseball - and all personal feelings aside, I think he sucks. I also think Joe Borchard has nothing to offer this team.

hold2dibber
08-23-2004, 06:04 PM
I actually like a lot of what you wrote, but I hate the Mentkieawfejaz part. He's one of the players I hate the most in baseball - and all personal feelings aside, I think he sucks. I also think Joe Borchard has nothing to offer this team.
I've always disliked Mkvenowvitzqz too, but I think Konerko's trade value is such right now that he should be moved to transform the character of the team. And to me, the perfect replacement is a smooth fielding, left handed hitter who plays his arse off. I think he fits the bill - and I think he's one of those guys who you hate when he's on the other team but love when he's on your team. As much as I hate the Twins, those guys, as Ozzie would say, "play the game the right way" and I think the Sox would benefit from an infusion of that attitude (another idea: Corie Koskie is a free agent this off season and most reports I've seen say that the Twins won't resign him).

balke
08-23-2004, 06:29 PM
These fans can't even deal with Scott Schoenweis when he gives up 5 runs through 6-7 innings, and you're talking about letting COTTS START? There'd be a freakin Cotts sucks thread everyday of the week. I'm all about giving him more time next year, but I'm keeping an unappreciative Garland, over a 5 runs in the first inning Cotts, any day of the week. I Let shoney go at it one more time when healthy over Cotts even. Sox are going to have to ease Cotts into that starter role again.

IMO Frank is Dh, Everett rides pine playing the field on occasion, and We'll probably end up seeing Gload at 1st. THis is how the White Sox work unfortunately. Thomas might play 1st somedays, while Everett DH, or vice versa. I expect to see more Gload next year, not that I want to.

balke
08-23-2004, 06:37 PM
Don't forget that KW supposedly had trades made for Walker and/or Delgado lined up, that would've really helped out this team, but those got shot down by no trade clauses. I'm happy with KW. He's not making trades like cabrera for Nomar (from red sox perspective). He's making intelligent trades, some working out better than others. The ones that look bad on paper seem to be great, the ones that look great on paper kinda fizzle, but he's doing a great job. IF he had gotten rid of Frank, I'd have hated his guts, but still, he didn't, and I like him.


Contreres for loaiza... Loaiza in a cy young year for a bag of balls.... come on man, that's great. I can't wait to see what he does next season.

maurice
08-23-2004, 06:40 PM
there won't be a better alternative [to Valentin] out there in the offseason.
This is premature. Lots of folks said the same thing at this time last year . . . before 80% of the starting SS in MLB went on the market.

Construct a lineup and bench where the main focus is OBP. No more Timo Perezes, Borchards, Gloads, Alomars and Uribes.
I agree in principle, but most of the guys you mentioned have a higher OBP than Valentin.

italiancee
08-23-2004, 06:46 PM
anyone ever seen the commercial "monday night quaterback"

with GB's QB walkin around town sayin "i would of double bagged that" "i would of watched out for that water pipe" etc etc...


get what im tryin to say?

Iguana775
08-23-2004, 06:48 PM
anyone ever seen the commercial "monday night quaterback"

with GB's QB walkin around town sayin "i would of double bagged that" "i would of watched out for that water pipe" etc etc...


get what im tryin to say?
We're so lucky to have a board full of real MLB GM's. :)

A. Cavatica
08-23-2004, 07:03 PM
He [Robbie Alomar]is here to help Harris stop popping up and strkinig out
And the way he's doing this is by taking his at-bats, in which Robbie himself pops up and/or strikes out.

Robbie redux was just plain dumb.

A. Cavatica
08-23-2004, 07:14 PM
There are some bright spots on this team.
Not many. Rowand's the best player on this team, which says a lot.

What would you consider bright spots? Konerko raising his trade value? Uribe being cheaper than Valentin?

balboner
08-23-2004, 08:15 PM
With this Sox team playing like crap, it's obvious that the talent level is not very good. The problem I have with this is that KW has traded away a ton of prospects over the last few years, and he doesn't have a very good roster to show for it. When this type of situation occurs in baseball, your future won't be very good unless you have a high payroll. Thus, this falls on the head of KW. And before anyone says the whole losing Frank and Maggs comment, think of this: KW went out and thought that Everett would be the answer to replacing Frank Thomas. I know that Frank is hard to replace, but Everett was not the answer. He gave up Rauch, our top minor league ready pitcher to get Everett. If this team is going to start over from scratch next year, I think KW should go also.

chisoxt
08-23-2004, 08:33 PM
With this Sox team playing like crap, it's obvious that the talent level is not very good. The problem I have with this is that KW has traded away a ton of prospects over the last few years, and he doesn't have a very good roster to show for it. When this type of situation occurs in baseball, your future won't be very good unless you have a high payroll. Thus, this falls on the head of KW. And before anyone says the whole losing Frank and Maggs comment, think of this: KW went out and thought that Everett would be the answer to replacing Frank Thomas. I know that Frank is hard to replace, but Everett was not the answer. He gave up Rauch, our top minor league ready pitcher to get Everett. If this team is going to start over from scratch next year, I think KW should go also.
Bingo! A lot of us have been saying this for months, years, but the kool-aid drinkers poo-poo this notion because they like Kenny's "agressive" style. Oh well, I'll give this thread about six more posts until the arbiter of appropriateness, the "This Thread Sucks" guy does his thing.

Book it Sox fans, we will not see a Sox team .500 this late in the season for three more years.

balboner
08-23-2004, 08:36 PM
Yeah, all those "This Thread Sucks" posts that took place when people said that this team wasn't very good sure look stupid now. A massive problem with the whole Sox organization is that no one is willing to acknowledge that the current philosophy of the organization is bad. We manage off the field like we have a big payroll, yet we can't sign/resign the type of guys we need to make our team workl.

poorme
08-23-2004, 08:36 PM
KWphiles will quickly point out that most of the guys he traded never amounted to anything. Therefore he is a good GM. QED.

fquaye149
08-23-2004, 08:45 PM
With this Sox team playing like crap, it's obvious that the talent level is not very good. The problem I have with this is that KW has traded away a ton of prospects over the last few years, and he doesn't have a very good roster to show for it. When this type of situation occurs in baseball, your future won't be very good unless you have a high payroll. Thus, this falls on the head of KW. And before anyone says the whole losing Frank and Maggs comment, think of this: KW went out and thought that Everett would be the answer to replacing Frank Thomas. I know that Frank is hard to replace, but Everett was not the answer. He gave up Rauch, our top minor league ready pitcher to get Everett. If this team is going to start over from scratch next year, I think KW should go also.
the frank and maggs "comment" is really as adequate an explanation as there is. WITH FRANK AND MAGGS WE ARE A TALENTED TEAM. we are a talented team without them too. . .but then again, so are the devil rays, who we are pretty much the same in payroll as while missing frank and maggs' nearly 20 mill a year. Neither team is expected to finish at the top of their divisions.

Kenny Williams never made the claim that EVERETT would REPLACE frank. He was acquired to make up for some of the offensive fire power we lost in frank, because according to my arithmetic, SOME is better than NONE. And the funny thing is, had Maggs not reinjured himself it most likely would have worked. Instead, we lost Maggs in addition to Frank and so too any real hope.

That's hardly Kenny's fault.

And before all you Kenny haters jump on this, look for any rationality in your body and tell me that you agree with the thread starter whose apparent major beef with Kenny is that he got rid of RAUCH.

Jebus.

maurice
08-23-2004, 08:50 PM
"A ton of prospects" is quite an exageration:
- Jeremy Reed, a corner OF with a little speed (21 SB) and a little pop (12 HR), is a decent prospect. We got Freddie Garcia in return.
- Jon Rauch turns 26 next month and has a history of serious arm injury, coupled with a 5.63 career ERA.
- Frankie Francisco is a decent reliever with an ERA comparable to Jon Adkins (but better peripheral stats).
That's only about 600 lbs. of prospects. The other minor leaguers KW traded are pretty marginal.

Daver
08-23-2004, 08:50 PM
I think KW should go also.
Who from the Sox organization will be replacing him?

I highly doubt JR will not promote from within.

balboner
08-23-2004, 08:52 PM
The whole problem I have with KW trading Rauch for Everett is that KW let his personal feelings about Rauch cloud his decision making about Rauch's value. Rauch, the international league leader in ERA, was given two chances on the Sox this year. One game was great, the other was poor. Then, KW jumped at the first chance to trade Rauch for Everett, who was rumored to be available for a bag of balls. I remember people thinking we would get Everett for a low level prospect. Don't you think Rauch would be nice to see pitch this last month and a half? Also, the whole concept of trading prospects for major league players is one thing...but you need to get good players. Carl Everett has been very bad this year, and could handcuff the Sox next year with his 4 million dollar contract if he picks it up.

Daver
08-23-2004, 08:53 PM
The whole problem I have with KW trading Rauch for Everett is that KW let his personal feelings about Rauch cloud his decision making about Rauch's value.
You know this as fact?

Or your perception of the facts?

balboner
08-23-2004, 08:55 PM
"A ton of prospects" is quite an exageration:
- Jeremy Reed, a corner OF with a little speed (21 SB) and a little pop (12 HR), is a decent prospect. We got Freddie Garcia in return.
- Jon Rauch turns 26 next month and has a history of serious arm injury, coupled with a 5.63 career ERA.
- Frankie Francisco is a decent reliever with an ERA comparable to Jon Adkins (but better peripheral stats).
That's only about 600 lbs. of prospects. The other minor leaguers KW traded are pretty marginal.
Dont forget Kip Wells and Josh Fogg for Ritchie. Yes, that was a few years ago, but that trade made by KW has left a huge hole at the end of the Sox rotation for a few years now. Also, he traded Miguel Olivo, one of the top catching prospects in the game. I know Ben Davis is doing great now, but it's only been a month. Who knows if this was just an ultra hot streak by him. I'm thrilled he's done so good, but lets wait before we beg KW to bring him back. Jeremy Reed is nowhere near considered a decent prospect. There's a reason he's ranked in the top 50 by almost every publication. Dont you think this team could use a line drive hitter with solid speed?

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 08:58 PM
the frank and maggs "comment" is really as adequate an explanation as there is. WITH FRANK AND MAGGS WE ARE A TALENTED TEAM. we are a talented team without them too. . .but then again, so are the devil rays, who we are pretty much the same in payroll as while missing frank and maggs' nearly 20 mill a year. Neither team is expected to finish at the top of their divisions.

Kenny Williams never made the claim that EVERETT would REPLACE frank. He was acquired to make up for some of the offensive fire power we lost in frank, because according to my arithmetic, SOME is better than NONE. And the funny thing is, had Maggs not reinjured himself it most likely would have worked. Instead, we lost Maggs in addition to Frank and so too any real hope.

That's hardly Kenny's fault.

And before all you Kenny haters jump on this, look for any rationality in your body and tell me that you agree with the thread starter whose apparent major beef with Kenny is that he got rid of RAUCH.

Jebus.
Kenny wanted Thomas to become a free agent so he could bring back Everett to DH. That is common knowledge. So, since his deal for Nomar, who has a wrist injury and may be out a while again, for Magglio fell through, the only part missing from his World Series contender is Magglio. If Magglio is worth the 15-20 game difference this team plays at without him vs. with him, then healthy he should be the highest paid player in baseball. The fact of the matter is that Magglio doesn't make that huge of a difference, and he'll probably never be 100% healthy again. This team KW has put together is not very good. He has the highest payroll in the division and is about to become 5-17 in the last 22 games vs. central division teams. Rauch wasn't that great, but he was by far the best 5th starter option in the organization. The results bear that out. Everett is no better than Ross Gload, he just has had a few better years under his belt, and makes 10 times the money. It was an aggressive move. As I have stated in the past, I have no doubt KW wants to win, and is applying his finest effort to succeed. Unfortunately, his efforts have fallen short time and time again, and there is nothing that would indicate this trend would not continue. I'd like to see him gone, and the clown he made manager dissmissed as well. Ozzie Guillen will eventually make Terry Bevington look like a genius.

maurice
08-23-2004, 09:04 PM
Dont forget Kip Wells and Josh Fogg for Ritchie. . . . Also, he traded Miguel Olivo . . . .I didn't forget those guys. Fogg qualifies as "pretty marginal." Even that's being generous. Wells pitched about 270 MLB innings before he was traded. Olivo caught about 165 games. IMHO, that doesn't qualify either as a "prospect." They were MLB players traded for other MLB players. The Ritchie trade was bad (and, like you said, long ago). Freddie Garcia is pretty darn good.

Jeremy Reed is nowhere near considered a decent prospect. There's a reason he's ranked in the top 50 by almost every publication.You're seriously overestimating the value of a LF who projects to similar AVE, similar speed, but less power than Carlos Lee. I'll take my chances with Anderson, Sweeney, Young, etc.

lowesox
08-23-2004, 09:06 PM
Dont forget Kip Wells and Josh Fogg for Ritchie. Yes, that was a few years ago, but that trade made by KW has left a huge hole at the end of the Sox rotation for a few years now. Also, he traded Miguel Olivo, one of the top catching prospects in the game. I know Ben Davis is doing great now, but it's only been a month. Who knows if this was just an ultra hot streak by him. I'm thrilled he's done so good, but lets wait before we beg KW to bring him back. Jeremy Reed is nowhere near considered a decent prospect. There's a reason he's ranked in the top 50 by almost every publication. Dont you think this team could use a line drive hitter with solid speed?
Let's not forget that prospects have a certain value when you trade them. If you're not getting adequate return for that value, it doesn't matter what the prospect does after the trade, you've blown his value.

But no matter how many stupid trades he's made our pleas for a competent GM will fall on deaf ears. Kenny's got his head planted firmly up JR's ass - and still has a large group of followers because he's 'aggressive.' We'll have to wait for him to totally drain the system of all the value it had when he inherited it from Schueler before he gets fired. Sad.

Oh well, Notre Dame starts in less than 2 weeks.

maurice
08-23-2004, 09:09 PM
drain the system of all the value it had when he inherited it from Schueler
Give me names . . . not platitudes. Who are all these wonderful Ron-Schuler-acquired players he traded? What are they doing now?

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 09:18 PM
Give me names . . . not platitudes. Who are all these wonderful Ron-Schuler-acquired players he traded? What are they doing now?You are right, he didn't drain any players. The White Sox farm system was rated #1 in 2000 by Baseball America. It turns out most of the can't miss studs missed very badly. As the farm director in 2000, KW took a lot of credit for that ranking, so much that it probably in the end earned him his current position. So the fact that those studs turned to duds, can be blamed, at least partially on KW.

chisoxt
08-23-2004, 09:23 PM
I didn't forget those guys. Fogg qualifies as "pretty marginal." Even that's being generous. Wells pitched about 270 MLB innings before he was traded. Olivo caught about 165 games. IMHO, that doesn't qualify either as a "prospect." They were MLB players traded for other MLB players. The Ritchie trade was bad (and, like you said, long ago). Freddie Garcia is pretty darn good.

You're seriously overestimating the value of a LF who projects to similar AVE, similar speed, but less power than Carlos Lee. I'll take my chances with Anderson, Sweeney, Young, etc.
This whole arguement is ludicrous!! On the one hand, if KW had traded the best prospects in the system, then shame on him. The MO of trading prospects for fading veterans is a player personnnel approach that has failed time and time again. But on the other hand, if these prospects werent' that good as the apologists say, than what IN THE HELL is going on with the player personnel development in this orgainization? Don't give me that crap about not having high draft picks because we have had above .500 records the last several years, the A's and Twins have both had bnetter records than the Sox by far and they put out talent faster than Borchard can strike out.

Daver
08-23-2004, 09:29 PM
You are right, he didn't drain any players. The White Sox farm system was rated #1 in 2000 by Baseball America. It turns out most of the can't miss studs missed very badly. As the farm director in 2000, KW took a lot of credit for that ranking, so much that it probably in the end earned him his current position. So the fact that those studs turned to duds, can be blamed, at least partially on KW.
Baseball America is not the end all be all of minor league baseball opinion.

In 2000 they formed their prospect list by sending out questionaires to all the teams scouting directors, and basing it on thier responses.

JRIG
08-23-2004, 09:31 PM
For argument's sake, let's assume KW began his post as GM with a completely barren farm system. No talent, no prospects, no hope for the future.

Now, in the years following his arrival, KW's major league teams have had 83 wins, 81 wins, 86 wins, and (I'm assuming here) 79 wins.

So, with no help from the minor league system, KW has inherited a division-winning team, made changes (some that needed to be made no matter what), inserted the players he wanted on the White Sox, and led his ballclub to a steady decline of 16 wins over 4 yeasrs.

Now, with that said, you would hope that with the major league team doing so poorly, the GM would identify the barren, crappy, overrated minor league system left him by the previous regime and work to change it, to make it a cheap, productive ballplayer producing machine. But, that horrible farm system he inherited -- the one that could do him no good and was completely ruined by Ron Schueler -- still sucks! There are few prospects. The ones that may be something (Anderson) are years away. There are no players at the AAA or AA level that would be able to come up and contribute at the big leaguies right now.

Kenny Williams major league club is a failure and his minor league system is a failure as well. And he will still get a free pass from most Sox fans.

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 09:36 PM
With this Sox team playing like crap, it's obvious that the talent level is not very good. The problem I have with this is that KW has traded away a ton of prospects over the last few years, and he doesn't have a very good roster to show for it. When this type of situation occurs in baseball, your future won't be very good unless you have a high payroll. Thus, this falls on the head of KW. And before anyone says the whole losing Frank and Maggs comment, think of this: KW went out and thought that Everett would be the answer to replacing Frank Thomas. I know that Frank is hard to replace, but Everett was not the answer. He gave up Rauch, our top minor league ready pitcher to get Everett. If this team is going to start over from scratch next year, I think KW should go also.
This sucks.

Who did he give up that we're really regretting so far? Are we going to be set back as a franchise because of the loss of Kip Wells? No.

Rauch sucks balls. If he was our top ready guy, you might as well trade them all away.

balboner
08-23-2004, 09:37 PM
KW gets a free pass from a lot of people because they like his aggressive attitude as a GM. However, they fail to realize that he's not improved this team one bit in the last few years. For everyone praising the acquisition of Garcia, we got him during a career year, and his ERA on the Sox has been 4.79, with an ERA of 5.83 at the Cell. Remember he was pitching at the large park that is SafeCo.

PaulDrake
08-23-2004, 09:39 PM
Now, with that said, you would hope that with the major league team doing so poorly, the GM would identify the barren, crappy, overrated minor league system left him by the previous regime and work to change it, to make it a cheap, productive ballplayer producing machine. But, that horrible farm system he inherited -- the one that could do him no good and was completely ruined by Ron Schueler -- still sucks! There are few prospects. The ones that may be something (Anderson) are years away. There are no players at the AAA or AA level that would be able to come up and contribute at the big leaguies right now.

Kenny Williams major league club is a failure and his minor league system is a failure as well. And he will still get a free pass from most Sox fans.Yes he will, at least on this board.

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 09:51 PM
Baseball America is not the end all be all of minor league baseball opinion.

In 2000 they formed their prospect list by sending out questionaires to all the teams scouting directors, and basing it on thier responses.That's my point. As it turns out, it was far from the best. As the farm director up until 2000, Williams has to bear some responsibility. As GM since 2000 he has to bear responsibility that the system still can't bring up players who can contribute to winning. Its all retreads. Burke did a decent job, Dransfeldt was ok, but there is no way they are on legitimate championship calibur teams. This team is obviously playing out the string right now, and somebody's head should roll. I'd like KW and Ozzie to head out together, but that won't happen. I just don't want to go to Soxfest next January and hear how Joe Borchard is going to blossom, how Crede is going to learn from his bad season, what a star Willie Harris is going to be, how Garland should win 18 games etc. If KW really believes these things, and they are some of the things he's been preaching for several seasons, he obviously isn't the person who should be making personel decisons for the White Sox. His choice for a manager shows an obvious lack of judgement.

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 09:52 PM
This sucks.

Who did he give up that we're really regretting so far? Are we going to be set back as a franchise because of the loss of Kip Wells? No.

Rauch sucks balls. If he was our top ready guy, you might as well trade them all away.Its not about who he gave up. Its about who he has acquired to get the White Sox to win. He has fallen short.

Daver
08-23-2004, 09:55 PM
I'm not defending KW, nor am I saying he should be replaced, I am simply trying to keep the fact and the fiction seperated.

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 10:00 PM
Its not about who he gave up. Its about who he has acquired to get the White Sox to win. He has fallen short.
No, this team just isn't good enough to win and the main pieces were all here when he took over. And he doesn't have a lot to work with money wise, nor has he ever had the leverage of a good farm system. He should have a bigger budget next year and be free of Valentin, Koch obviously, Maggs, and hopefully Lee or Konerko. And he's said he's fed up with this style of ball, so things should be very different next year.

balboner
08-23-2004, 10:03 PM
We need to be careful what we wish for when we say get rid of Konerko and/or Lee. Without them this year, we'd be the worst hitting team in baseball. Who knows, KW probably would consider platooning Robbie and Everett at 1b next year w/no PK.

balke
08-23-2004, 10:05 PM
Kenny wanted Thomas to become a free agent so he could bring back Everett to DH. That is common knowledge. So, since his deal for Nomar, who has a wrist injury and may be out a while again, for Magglio fell through, the only part missing from his World Series contender is Magglio. If Magglio is worth the 15-20 game difference this team plays at without him vs. with him, then healthy he should be the highest paid player in baseball. The fact of the matter is that Magglio doesn't make that huge of a difference, and he'll probably never be 100% healthy again. This team KW has put together is not very good. He has the highest payroll in the division and is about to become 5-17 in the last 22 games vs. central division teams. Rauch wasn't that great, but he was by far the best 5th starter option in the organization. The results bear that out. Everett is no better than Ross Gload, he just has had a few better years under his belt, and makes 10 times the money. It was an aggressive move. As I have stated in the past, I have no doubt KW wants to win, and is applying his finest effort to succeed. Unfortunately, his efforts have fallen short time and time again, and there is nothing that would indicate this trend would not continue. I'd like to see him gone, and the clown he made manager dissmissed as well. Ozzie Guillen will eventually make Terry Bevington look like a genius.

Aprils winning percentage W/ Dan wright pitching: .619
May's w/ cotts pitching no Valentin for a few weeks: .571
June 7 Maggs injured. June 26th Shoney to DL : .480
July 8-9 Maggs and shoney "back", 11th Frank to DL 23rd Maggs to dL.
July Pct : .407
August shoney out Maggs out Frank out 4-man rotation: .400
Last 7 Days: .167

Oh yeah, we sucked without Maggs and Frank alright. And I wish we still had Rauch so he could've blown his arm out again for us. Walker and Delgado said no to coming here, we got a cheap Everett, cause noone wanted to help us.

If you're going to blame this season on traded away prospects... and Garcia/ Davis for Olivo/Reed... :?: :?: :?:

Diaz is our pitching "stud"... Cotts is better... Munoz was our all-star. Rauch is sitting on a couch somewhere. And we still have Borchard... precious borchard. Reed's #'s aren't magical. When he comes up he'll probably be as effective as the rest of the bunch.

Then again there is that whole Rowand guy we've held onto. And Crede, who's better than no 3rd basemen at all.

Konerko Lee Garcia Contreras Rowand Thomas Ordonez Buerhle. Yeah... where is the talent?

And what is "talent"? is it the "tools" of Borchard, or the "all-star" in front of Loaiza's name? Or Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez? injuries killed this team.

Fungo
08-23-2004, 10:06 PM
Jeremy Reed is nowhere near considered a decent prospect. There's a reason he's ranked in the top 50 by almost every publication.
This means absolutely nothing. Jon Rauch, for example, was the minor league player of the year back in 2000 and he's been far from a "lock".

Like Daver said, "Baseball America is not the end all be all of minor league baseball opinion". The list of busts is very long and is not limited to the White Sox. Every team has seen their fair share of can't miss guys who've missed badly.

PaulDrake
08-23-2004, 10:07 PM
We need to be careful what we wish for when we say get rid of Konerko and/or Lee. Without them this year, we'd be the worst hitting team in baseball. Who knows, KW probably would consider platooning Robbie and Everett at 1b next year w/no PK. Next year could easily be a 1970 kind of a year for Sox fans. Maybe I get ripped for posting as much but things look bleaker by the day.

Tragg
08-23-2004, 10:12 PM
You are right, he didn't drain any players. The White Sox farm system was rated #1 in 2000 by Baseball America. It turns out most of the can't miss studs missed very badly. As the farm director in 2000, KW took a lot of credit for that ranking, so much that it probably in the end earned him his current position. So the fact that those studs turned to duds, can be blamed, at least partially on KW.
Well at least he's trying to turn the duds into something- which is more than his predecessor did.

This is on him- specifically, he's got to right this ship- fast- like by next year. And he should get enough payroll flexibility to do that.

maurice
08-23-2004, 10:14 PM
I'm not defending KW, nor am I saying he should be replaced, I am simply trying to keep the fact and the fiction seperated.Same here. Along those lines:
- 2004 is not remotely Freddie Garcia's career year
- Minny and Oakland have had lots of high 1st round draft picks during the Sox .500-ish or above run.

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 10:16 PM
We need to be careful what we wish for when we say get rid of Konerko and/or Lee. Without them this year, we'd be the worst hitting team in baseball. Who knows, KW probably would consider platooning Robbie and Everett at 1b next year w/no PK.
If you just take them out of the picture and don't replace them, yeah. But the key is to replace them with players that fill our weaknesses. These guys are getting outhit by Rowand and they tie up 14 or 15 million. In my book that means -- you gone! Konerko's got 30 homers and like 12 doubles. He's only batting like .280, not very impressive in the rbi category. You gotta trade this guy right now. There's always a team looking for a 1st baseman like him and his value will never be higher.

TomParrish79
08-23-2004, 10:16 PM
I like KW.

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 10:17 PM
No, this team just isn't good enough to win and the main pieces were all here when he took over. And he doesn't have a lot to work with money wise, nor has he ever had the leverage of a good farm system. He should have a bigger budget next year and be free of Valentin, Koch obviously, Maggs, and hopefully Lee or Konerko. And he's said he's fed up with this style of ball, so things should be very different next year.He also said last year he was looking for grinders. He didn't get many of those.

Tragg
08-23-2004, 10:20 PM
If you just take them out of the picture and don't replace them, yeah. But the key is to replace them with players that fill our weaknesses. These guys are getting outhit by Rowand and they tie up 14 or 15 million. In my book that means -- you gone! Konerko's got 30 homers and like 12 doubles. He's only batting like .280, not very impressive in the rbi category. You gotta trade this guy right now. There's always a team looking for a 1st baseman like him and his value will never be higher.I'd trade him too- SS? 2b? C?

Don't sign Maggs
Sign Beltran
Lee to first
Rowand to left

How about a real major league manager out of all of this morass?

balke
08-23-2004, 10:21 PM
If you just take them out of the picture and don't replace them, yeah. But the key is to replace them with players that fill our weaknesses. These guys are getting outhit by Rowand and they tie up 14 or 15 million. In my book that means -- you gone! Konerko's got 30 homers and like 12 doubles. He's only batting like .280, not very impressive in the rbi category. You gotta trade this guy right now. There's always a team looking for a 1st baseman like him and his value will never be higher.

/genius


Gload is not as good, but not bad at first. a little quicker, can probably get more doubles, and 10-20 HR in a season. If the sox couldn't think of a better option. I say that's not a bad one, depending on what we get for PK

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 10:21 PM
He also said last year he was looking for grinders. He didn't get many of those.
He didn't have the flexibility to make any real changes last winter. I already listed the names. If those guys are gone he can get as many grinders as he wants.

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 10:22 PM
Same here. Along those lines:
- 2004 is not remotely Freddie Garcia's career year
- Minny and Oakland have had lots of high 1st round draft picks during the Sox .500-ish or above run.Oakland's been drafting below the White Sox the last 3 years. Most of the young players who have come up and been very successful at the major league level the past 10 years, were available when the White Sox drafted. Sure, being a little better than average has kept them from the Priors, and the Mauers, and the Mulders. But there still has been talent available, and they have drafted talented players. They haven't been able to develop them.

JRIG
08-23-2004, 10:22 PM
/genius


Gload is not as good, but not bad at first. a little quicker, can probably get more doubles, and 10-20 HR in a season. If the sox couldn't think of a better option. I say that's not a bad one, depending on what we get for PK
Paulie doesn't have a ton of doubles because his hits go out of the park. Would you rather he have 24 2B and 23 HR? No thanks. I'll take the guaranteed run that happens when nobody can catch the baseball. He's still 11th in the AL in SLG.

Tragg
08-23-2004, 10:23 PM
/genius


Gload is not as good, but not bad at first. a little quicker, can probably get more doubles, and 10-20 HR in a season. If the sox couldn't think of a better option. I say that's not a bad one, depending on what we get for PK
That leave us with 35 homers out of both corner positions combined- without bood OBPs. I don't think that will cut it.

Daver
08-23-2004, 10:26 PM
Oakland's been drafting below the White Sox the last 3 years. Most of the young players who have come up and been very successful at the major league level the past 10 years, were available when the White Sox drafted. Sure, being a little better than average has kept them from the Priors, and the Mauers, and the Mulders. But there still has been talent available, and they have drafted talented players. They haven't been able to develop them.
The Sox have not drafted in the top ten since 1991.

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 10:29 PM
He didn't have the flexibility to make any real changes last winter. I already listed the names. If those guys are gone he can get as many grinders as he wants.He has Thomas at $2 million more than he was making, he'll be at $8 million. Garcia is going to cost $8 million. I believe Everett has a $4 million player option. Contreras costs $6 million. He wants Garland back, that will be $3-4 million. Buerhle I believe gets $6-7 million next year. Rowand is going to get a raise. Konerko and Lee aren't going to be easy to move. I really think the payroll flexibiliy you are hoping for is not as big as you think.

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 10:31 PM
Paulie doesn't have a ton of doubles because his hits go out of the park. Would you rather he have 24 2B and 23 HR? No thanks. I'll take the guaranteed run that happens when nobody can catch the baseball. He's still 11th in the AL in SLG.
He's got 7 homers on the road this year. He's got a lot of homers because he plays in a launching pad. I'd rather have a guy with 38 doubles, 19 homers, good range and the money left over to field a strong bullpen. Not an overrated lead foot first baseman making 8 million and you don't know what you're gonna get from one year to the next.

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 10:32 PM
The Sox have not drafted in the top ten since 1991.That doesn't mean you can't have a successful farm system.

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 10:33 PM
He has Thomas at $2 million more than he was making, he'll be at $8 million. Garcia is going to cost $8 million. I believe Everett has a $4 million player option. Contreras costs $6 million. He wants Garland back, that will be $3-4 million. Buerhle I believe gets $6-7 million next year. Rowand is going to get a raise. Konerko and Lee aren't going to be easy to move. I really think the payroll flexibiliy you are hoping for is not as big as you think.
In the mindset that those two aren't gonna be easy to move, then yes. But how do you figure that? Both are putting up attractive numbers, both are in their late 20s.

JRIG
08-23-2004, 10:34 PM
He has Thomas at $2 million more than he was making, he'll be at $8 million. Garcia is going to cost $8 million. I believe Everett has a $4 million player option. Contreras costs $6 million. He wants Garland back, that will be $3-4 million. Buerhle I believe gets $6-7 million next year. Rowand is going to get a raise. Konerko and Lee aren't going to be easy to move. I really think the payroll flexibiliy you are hoping for is not as big as you think.
Don't forget Lee at $8 million and Konerko at $8.75 if we can't move them. Buehrle is at $5.75 for next year. It looks like, as of right now, the Sox have $46.25 million committed for next year in 7 players, plus a $2.5 million option on Shingo and the $4 million Everett option is not inclkuded in that number either. So it could be about $53 million in 9 players alraedy.

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 10:34 PM
The Sox have not drafted in the top ten since 1991. They once had a top ten pick in 1985. They picked Kurt Brown. The next player selected was Barry Bonds.

JRIG
08-23-2004, 10:35 PM
He's got 7 homers on the road this year. He's got a lot of homers because he plays in a launching pad. I'd rather have a guy with 38 doubles, 19 homers, good range and the money left over to field a strong bullpen. Not an overrated lead foot first baseman making 8 million and you don't know what you're gonna get from one year to the next.
I'm not against trading him right now, please don't misunderstand. But if you're only getting 19 HR out of a 1B next year, he better have a fairly decent OBP and you better use that extra money to find a true leadoff guy.

Daver
08-23-2004, 10:36 PM
They once had a top ten pick in 1985. They picked Kurt Brown. The next player selected was Barry Bonds.
What is your point?

And what does it add to this discussion?

dickallen15
08-23-2004, 10:38 PM
What is your point?

And what does it add to this discussion?You mentioned top 10 picks. My point is those guys aren't sure things either.

Tragg
08-23-2004, 10:39 PM
Don't forget Lee at $8 million and Konerko at $8.75 if we can't move them. Buehrle is at $5.75 for next year. It looks like, as of right now, the Sox have $46.25 million committed for next year in 7 players, plus a $2.5 million option on Shingo and the $4 million Everett option is not inclkuded in that number either. So it could be about $53 million in 9 players alraedy.Good lord we certainly shouldn't pick up the Everett option- that would be looney tunes; MB is worth more than 5.75 million (especially if Garcia is worth 9 million); we might trade Konerko; should save another $5 without Valentin.

balboner
08-23-2004, 10:41 PM
Good lord we certainly shouldn't pick up the Everett option- that would be looney tunes; MB is worth more than 5.75 million (especially if Garcia is worth 9 million); we might trade Konerko; should save another $5 without Valentin.
Be prepared to be pissed. The Everett option is a player option, which means all he has to do is say yes, and he's back. That was part of the problem with trading for him.