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wdelaney72
08-23-2004, 09:38 AM
Garcia: 7 innings 5 earned runs.
Buehrle: 6 innings 4 earned runs.

Here's our 1 and 2 "studs" this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I like Garcia and Buehrle a lot, but neither is a #1 stopper. They're both solid #2 pitchers. This is why another consistent SP needs to be a priority in the offseason.

Pavano should be aggressively pursued this off-season. If that doesn't work, I'd settle for Matt Clement. Either way, we can't go into 2005 with Judy Garland as our #4 pitcher. We need another proven starter.

samram
08-23-2004, 09:40 AM
Garcia: 7 innings 5 earned runs.
Buehrle: 6 innings 4 earned runs.

Here's our 1 and 2 "studs" this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I like Garcia and Buehrle a lot, but neither is a #1 stopper. They're both solid #2 pitchers. This is why another consistent SP needs to be a priority in the offseason.

Pavano should be aggressively pursued this off-season. If that doesn't work, I'd settle for Matt Clement. Either way, we can't go into 2005 with Judy Garland as our #4 pitcher. We need another proven starter.
That's fine and the Sox should add another starter, but let's not get too down on Buehrle and Garcia just because their last two starts have been bad. All starters have bad stretches during the year. Let's also remember that with the Sox offense, there is a ton of pressure on the starters to pitch very well each outing.

fledgedrallycap
08-23-2004, 09:44 AM
That's fine and the Sox should add another starter, but let's not get too down on Buehrle and Garcia just because their last two starts have been bad. All starters have bad stretches during the year. Let's also remember that with the Sox offense, there is a ton of pressure on the starters to pitch very well each outing.
Completely agree. Show me evidence that Pavano and Clement are worthy of the "stopper" tag over Garcia and Buehrle.

mike squires
08-23-2004, 09:49 AM
Clement as a #1? Hardly. I'd rather keep Mark and Freddy as our 1 and 2 punch and find a worthy #5. I also wouldn't give up on Garland just either.

Win1ForMe
08-23-2004, 09:58 AM
Garcia: 7 innings 5 earned runs.
Buehrle: 6 innings 4 earned runs.

Here's our 1 and 2 "studs" this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I like Garcia and Buehrle a lot, but neither is a #1 stopper. They're both solid #2 pitchers. This is why another consistent SP needs to be a priority in the offseason.

Pavano should be aggressively pursued this off-season. If that doesn't work, I'd settle for Matt Clement. Either way, we can't go into 2005 with Judy Garland as our #4 pitcher. We need another proven starter.Garcia's outing would look much better if Dusty Baker Jr. wasn't the manager. As far as Pavano and Clement, neither reminds of a true ace pitcher. Both are having career-best seasons and I would expect some drop-off in performance next year, especially with an AL team. In fact, this entire free agent pitching crop should be given a "buyer beware" tag as there are no sure things.

JDP
08-23-2004, 10:03 AM
Garcia: 7 innings 5 earned runs.
Buehrle: 6 innings 4 earned runs.

Here's our 1 and 2 "studs" this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I like Garcia and Buehrle a lot, but neither is a #1 stopper. They're both solid #2 pitchers. This is why another consistent SP needs to be a priority in the offseason.

Pavano should be aggressively pursued this off-season. If that doesn't work, I'd settle for Matt Clement. Either way, we can't go into 2005 with Judy Garland as our #4 pitcher. We need another proven starter.
Judy already IS our #4 [Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras]. The only true #1 that will be available (granted, possible pipe dream) via FA is Pedro. Pavano, Clement, Ortiz -- all #2s or #3s.

soxtalker
08-23-2004, 10:09 AM
As someone posted in another thread, the relief staff is tired. I suspect that the same is true of the starters. Ozzie generally allows them to go longer than Manuel -- both in order to let them work through problems and to give his relief staff a break. And that brief trial of a 4-man rotation only exacerbated things. We may simply be seeing the cumulative effects of heavy work loads late in the season.

Iguana775
08-23-2004, 10:12 AM
As someone posted in another thread, the relief staff is tired. I suspect that the same is true of the starters. Ozzie generally allows them to go longer than Manuel -- both in order to let them work through problems and to give his relief staff a break. And that brief trial of a 4-man rotation only exacerbated things. We may simply be seeing the cumulative effects of heavy work loads late in the season.
That's probably the case. the pen is probably dead tired. Marte looks like he's throwning batting practice out there.

samram
08-23-2004, 10:14 AM
That's probably the case. the pen is probably dead tired. Marte looks like he's throwning batting practice out there.
Maybe he saw "SOX" on the other team's uniform, got confused, and thought that's what he was doing.:D:

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 10:19 AM
Maybe he saw "SOX" on the other team's uniform, got confused, and thought that's what he was doing.:D:

Boston does not have "Sox" located anywhere on their uniforms or hats. Just another reason as to why we are the true "Sox."

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 10:21 AM
I would love to see us get 2 new starting pitchers for 2005. I have seen enough of Garland. I would like to see Odalis Perez, Carl Pavano, Russ Ortiz, or even Wilson Alvarez (even after his bad outing yesterday) playing on the southside next year.

samram
08-23-2004, 10:25 AM
Boston does not have "Sox" located anywhere on their uniforms or hats. Just another reason as to why we are the true "Sox."
Good point, although now I have to just deal with the fact that Marte has been awful lately.

Etownsox13
08-23-2004, 11:06 AM
Every year we go through the same old thing. ie Todd Ritchie, David Wells, Bartolo Colon, and Freddie Garcia. It has become apparent that this team is much further than simply one starting pitcher away from the post season. Where we really need help is from a coaching standpoint. I think Cooper is a great guy, but we need a change as far as the pitching staff is concerned, and the best way to do it would be to hire a new pitching coach.

habibharu
08-23-2004, 11:32 AM
Garcia: 7 innings 5 earned runs.
Buehrle: 6 innings 4 earned runs.

Here's our 1 and 2 "studs" this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I like Garcia and Buehrle a lot, but neither is a #1 stopper. They're both solid #2 pitchers. This is why another consistent SP needs to be a priority in the offseason.

Pavano should be aggressively pursued this off-season. If that doesn't work, I'd settle for Matt Clement. Either way, we can't go into 2005 with Judy Garland as our #4 pitcher. We need another proven starter. like ive been saying all along, buehrle and garica are NOT number 1 starters, they are perfect number twos

HomeFish
08-23-2004, 12:38 PM
I don't mean to be overly optimistic, but I personally believe that Buerhle, Garcia, and Contreras are a solid 1-3. Not overpowering, not the best in the majors, but solid.

The problem is those other two spots. We have nothing there.

Also, I don't see the point of this talk of Clement, Pavano, et al. Yeah, they'd be nice, but, reality check: we're the White Sox. No FA wants to play for us, and even if they did, JR is not going to give them the money they want. Expect to see more of the same old, same old.

misty60481
08-23-2004, 12:43 PM
Why not spend a little more $$$ and put a real good pitching coach in Charlotte so when these kids are called up they are at least ready

wdelaney72
08-23-2004, 12:51 PM
I'm not saying Pavano or Clement are #1 pitchers by any stretch. When you think about it, many teams do not have a true #1 stopper and if you do, it doesn't mean you're going to the WS (see Arizona).

All I'm saying is that SP is arguably the #1 priority this offseason. I don't think we necessarily need a Randy Johnson to win. In fact, I'd rather have 4 "#2" type starters as instead of a stud #1 and Judy Garland and Schoenweis in the rotation.

Acquiring Pavano or Clement gives us 4 VERY GOOD pitchers 1-4 leaving Judy Garland to stink up the rear and invent new ways to walk batters.

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 01:23 PM
like ive been saying all along, buehrle and garica are NOT number 1 starters, they are perfect number twos

Ben Sheets is 0-4 in seven starts since the all-star break, Sabathia gave up 7 ER in 5.2 IP yesterday, Kerry Wood is still at seven wins, and Mark Prior's ERA is 4.73. You said all four of those guys were number 1's. Proving yourself to be correct once again!

HomeFish
08-23-2004, 01:25 PM
Ben Sheets is 0-4 in seven starts since the all-star break, Sabathia gave up 7 ER in 5.2 IP yesterday, Kerry Wood is still at seven wins, and Mark Prior's ERA is 4.73. You said all four of those guys were number 1's. Proving yourself to be correct once again!

Their more unfortunate recent stats aside, do you not agree that all those are superior to what we have now?

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 01:27 PM
Their more unfortunate recent stats aside, do you not agree that all those are superior to what we have now?

Freddy is a proven number 1 over all 4 of those guys. If people are going to bring up the recent stats of Buehrle and Garcia I think it's only fair to include the recent stats of the pitchers that were compared to Mark and Freddy.

HomeFish
08-23-2004, 01:30 PM
Freddy is a proven number 1 over all 4 of those guys. If people are going to bring up the recent stats of Buehrle and Garcia I think it's only fair to include the recent stats of the pitchers that were compared to Mark and Freddy.

Freddy has always been a respected pitcher, but I don't think he passes the "oh ****" test.

That is, when you look at a pitching matchup, do you say "oh ****, we're facing <pitcher>" when you're up against somebody.

I would say that, of course, I say that when we face Prior and Wood, and perhaps Sabathia, but, for all the bad times we've had against Seattle, I never once said that when we were facing Freddy.

santo=dorf
08-23-2004, 01:33 PM
Freddy has always been a respected pitcher, but I don't think he passes the "oh ****" test.

That is, when you look at a pitching matchup, do you say "oh ****, we're facing <pitcher>" when you're up against somebody.

I would say that, of course, I say that when we face Prior and Wood, and perhaps Sabathia, but, for all the bad times we've had against Seattle, I never once said that when we were facing Freddy.

How do we know that Prior isn't a one year wonder? Kerry Wood can be a number one if "his stuff is on." Well if he's so good, why does he ever have to worry about his stuff not being "on?" Sabathia is a good pitcher, but he gets hit hard alot. Sheets is just enetering his prime and isn't proven.... yet.

HomeFish
08-23-2004, 01:39 PM
How do we know that Prior isn't a one year wonder? Kerry Wood can be a number one if "his stuff is on." Well if he's so good, why does he ever have to worry about his stuff not being "on?" Sabathia is a good pitcher, but he gets hit hard alot. Sheets is just enetering his prime and isn't proven.... yet.

I hope very dearly that Prior is a one year wonder, but right now he doesn't have enough bad starts to justify that.

From what I have seen of Wood (and, because I do not watch the Cubs on TV as a rule, I see him only on Gameday, so I may be missing out on something) he always has his stuff on, but then gets the W taken away by their bullpen -- so the low w stat may be misleading.

habibharu
08-23-2004, 01:40 PM
Ben Sheets is 0-4 in seven starts since the all-star break, Sabathia gave up 7 ER in 5.2 IP yesterday, Kerry Wood is still at seven wins, and Mark Prior's ERA is 4.73. You said all four of those guys were number 1's. Proving yourself to be correct once again! look at sheets' ERA overall: a hefty 2.89! yes sabathia has been struggling, woods has seven wins, but his era is a loft 2.97. yeah id DEFINITLEY rather have burlys miniscule 4 ERA and garica MICROSCOPIC 4.79 over those other guys. and dont even compare ANY SP to prior, especially not burly and freddy. hes been hurt, which is why his ERA is bad. Id probably trade ANY player in the league straight up for prior except maybe 4 or 5 players

habibharu
08-23-2004, 01:44 PM
How do we know that Prior isn't a one year wonder?:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: that is BY FAR the FUNNIEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD! come on man, you CANT be serious! i know that you hate the scrubs, as do I, but PLEASE! ONE YEAR WONDER? this isnt ELO we're talkin about! have you ever seen this guy pitch? in fact, i would be willing to bet any amount of money, that prior wins multiple cy youngs in his career

wdelaney72
08-23-2004, 02:04 PM
I agree Prior is very good and is not a one year wonder. However, multiple Cy Youngs??

He needs to be able to stay healthy for a season first. When he does that, I'll join you in predicting his multiple Cy Young awards.


:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: that is BY FAR the FUNNIEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD! come on man, you CANT be serious! i know that you hate the scrubs, as do I, but PLEASE! ONE YEAR WONDER? this isnt ELO we're talkin about! have you ever seen this guy pitch? in fact, i would be willing to bet any amount of money, that prior wins multiple cy youngs in his career

Hangar18
08-23-2004, 02:23 PM
for 1 ....... the FanBase would be VERY ENCOURAGED.

Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
Clement
Pavano

with Judy as the 6th starter/long relief is an excellent staff .......
and puts us in the playoffs alone. #5 starter for us last 2 yrs has been
5-40? awful

Mohoney
08-23-2004, 02:28 PM
Every year we go through the same old thing. ie Todd Ritchie, David Wells, Bartolo Colon, and Freddie Garcia. It has become apparent that this team is much further than simply one starting pitcher away from the post season. Where we really need help is from a coaching standpoint. I think Cooper is a great guy, but we need a change as far as the pitching staff is concerned, and the best way to do it would be to hire a new pitching coach.

Paging Jack McDowell.

SoxPAguy
08-23-2004, 03:11 PM
Garcia: 7 innings 5 earned runs.
Buehrle: 6 innings 4 earned runs.

Here's our 1 and 2 "studs" this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I like Garcia and Buehrle a lot, but neither is a #1 stopper. They're both solid #2 pitchers. This is why another consistent SP needs to be a priority in the offseason.

Pavano should be aggressively pursued this off-season. If that doesn't work, I'd settle for Matt Clement. Either way, we can't go into 2005 with Judy Garland as our #4 pitcher. We need another proven starter.
Id say the bigger question is what to do with garland. I would say trade him to LA (along with Crede if need be) and get Odalis Perez.

habibharu
08-23-2004, 03:15 PM
for 1 ....... the FanBase would be VERY ENCOURAGED.

Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
Clement
Pavano

with Judy as the 6th starter/long relief is an excellent staff .......
and puts us in the playoffs alone. #5 starter for us last 2 yrs has been
5-40? awful this should be in deep pink! pavano and clement are about 20 mil per year! no way that happens!

mike squires
08-23-2004, 10:01 PM
Every year we go through the same old thing. ie Todd Ritchie, David Wells, Bartolo Colon, and Freddie Garcia. It has become apparent that this team is much further than simply one starting pitcher away from the post season. Where we really need help is from a coaching standpoint. I think Cooper is a great guy, but we need a change as far as the pitching staff is concerned, and the best way to do it would be to hire a new pitching coach.
I wonder if they are "grooming" Dotson in the minor leagues to eventually take over the pitching duties. With Baines, Hickey and Walker with the club it only makes sense.

Tragg
08-23-2004, 10:14 PM
Garcia: 7 innings 5 earned runs.
Buehrle: 6 innings 4 earned runs.

Here's our 1 and 2 "studs" this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I like Garcia and Buehrle a lot, but neither is a #1 stopper. They're both solid #2 pitchers. This is why another consistent SP needs to be a priority in the offseason.

Pavano should be aggressively pursued this off-season. If that doesn't work, I'd settle for Matt Clement. Either way, we can't go into 2005 with Judy Garland as our #4 pitcher. We need another proven starter.
Problem is that Clement nor Pavano are number 1 starters either.

MRKARNO
08-23-2004, 10:32 PM
this should be in deep pink! pavano and clement are about 20 mil per year! no way that happens!
They wont be 20 mil a year because no one is these days, but I bet they'll be between 10-13 a year and we're not getting 2 pitchers at that price.

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 10:43 PM
Garcia: 7 innings 5 earned runs.
Buehrle: 6 innings 4 earned runs.

Here's our 1 and 2 "studs" this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I like Garcia and Buehrle a lot, but neither is a #1 stopper. They're both solid #2 pitchers. This is why another consistent SP needs to be a priority in the offseason.

Pavano should be aggressively pursued this off-season. If that doesn't work, I'd settle for Matt Clement. Either way, we can't go into 2005 with Judy Garland as our #4 pitcher. We need another proven starter.
There are only like 5 guys in the game who are number one stoppers as you say. Aren't those numbers the result of three days rest anyway? You can't count that against them.

In today's game, Buehrle and Garcia are number ones. It's time for everyone to just lower their expectations a little bit. There has never been a time where every team had one guy that was just unhittable. Anymore it's like you're not an ace unless you're Bob Gibason. Look at number one starters around the two leagues, we're in good shape.

At any rate I agree that we need another good starter. The 5th hole has basically kept us out of the playoffs the last three years. If they can't see we need another guy they're freaking morons.

mdep524
08-23-2004, 11:31 PM
Id say the bigger question is what to do with garland. I would say trade him to LA (along with Crede if need be) and get Odalis Perez.
I'm pretty sure Perez is going to be a FA this off season, so we could probably just sign him if we so desired.

About the whole "true #1" thing...it's not as easy as saying "after much thought and reflection, we have decided we need to acquire a true ace for our staff." Those pitchers are hard to come by, and teams don't just give them up.

The only true aces that are even remote possibilties to change teams next year are Pedro, a FA who would cost an arm and a leg, and Randy Johnson, who probably wouldn't sign off on a trade to the Sox anyway.

So Carl Pavano or Odalis Perez are the most reasonable possiblities, even though they are not true #1s they would still solidify the starting staff. UNfortunately, the Sox' problems run so much deeper than just starting pitching... :(:

batmanZoSo
08-23-2004, 11:50 PM
I'm pretty sure Perez is going to be a FA this off season, so we could probably just sign him if we so desired.

About the whole "true #1" thing...it's not as easy as saying "after much thought and reflection, we have decided we need to acquire a true ace for our staff." Those pitchers are hard to come by, and teams don't just give them up.

The only true aces that are even remote possibilties to change teams next year are Pedro, a FA who would cost an arm and a leg, and Randy Johnson, who probably wouldn't sign off on a trade to the Sox anyway.

So Carl Pavano or Odalis Perez are the most reasonable possiblities, even though they are not true #1s they would still solidify the starting staff. UNfortunately, the Sox' problems run so much deeper than just starting pitching... :(:
Weren't we supposed to get Odalis Perez in the offseason in some kind of trade? We were also close to getting Gagne before 2002, anyone remember that? :?: