PDA

View Full Version : *Official* post-mortem thread: August 22, Sox lose again.


sternrulz
08-22-2004, 10:10 PM
Something too look forward to!! Just think how fast these next seven months will go by! Unless the Flubs make it too the WS of course, then I'm moving to Canada. :bandance:

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-22-2004, 10:19 PM
Something too look forward to!! Just think how fast these next seven months will go by! Unless the Flubs make it too the WS of course, then I'm moving to Canada. :bandance:

then im shooting myself :bandance:

balboner
08-22-2004, 10:20 PM
Let me just say this...Ozzie sucks! He's done nothing for this team, and they look flatter now than they ever did on Manuel. Why in the world did he let Valentin bat against a tough lhp? Uribe is a better bunter anyways, and you had to know that Jose is a crappy bunter.

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-22-2004, 10:22 PM
:angry: :cuss: :angry: :cuss: WE NEEDED ONE FRICKING BASE HIT TO TIE THE F***ING GAME. GOD DAMN IT

losingugly2004
08-22-2004, 10:23 PM
With a couple exceptions, most notably Konerko, CLee and Rowand, the Sox seemed to have quit. They can roll over and play dead better then my trusted dog. Oh woe is me.

hsnterprize
08-22-2004, 10:23 PM
This team is depressing enough to make me cry. This is ridiculous. They're so bad right now that even the pitchers they count on to stop a losing streak can't get the job done.

In fairness to Freddy, this loss wasn't entirely his fault. Sure, he game up gophers to Ramirez, Ortiz, and Mintkiewicz. However, the White Sox left 7 runners on base, with 3 of them in scoring position with 2 outs.

This game is already on the front page of MLB.com. How painful is that. It seemed like a national spotlight to show the world just how much the Boston Red Sox are not only leading the AL Wildcard, but are now within striking distance of the AL East leading Yanks.

I'm sorry, but my vacuum cleaner doesn't suck as bad as the White Sox are right now.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-22-2004, 10:24 PM
:jon
"I can't hit for the guys, I can only pitch... and one run isn't going to do it! Oh wait, that's my excuse next time I pitch... nevermind."

HaroMaster87
08-22-2004, 10:25 PM
I'm 32 years old and this is one of the worst teams I can remember WITH no hope for the future. At least those team in the early 90's had young guys you knew were gonna be good...not this team. It's just a bunch of old, lazy, guys who just dont give a damn and are only looking forward to the end of the month.....PAYDAY!!!!!

batmanZoSo
08-22-2004, 10:26 PM
Let me just say this...Ozzie sucks! He's done nothing for this team, and they look flatter now than they ever did on Manuel. Why in the world did he let Valentin bat against a tough lhp? Uribe is a better bunter anyways, and you had to know that Jose is a crappy bunter.
This team sucks, Ozzie doesn't. You're telling me Crede, Gload, Perez, and Harris constitute a championship team? Sparky Anderson, Earl Weaver, John McGraw and Connie Mack couldn't join alliances and win a division with this club.

This is making me puke. That lard ass in left field fell down like an idiot, then he laughed because you know the White Sox aren't gonna make you pay for it. Can't even get a fly ball. Well, check that, they can but only when there are two outs. Then they're great at it.

dcb33
08-22-2004, 10:26 PM
As bad as we've looked agaisnt the Tigers, we're gonna be lucky to not finish in 4th...

HaroMaster87
08-22-2004, 10:26 PM
:jon
"I can't hit for the guys, I can only pitch... and one run isn't going to do it! Oh wait, that's my excuse next time I pitch... nevermind."
Post of the day....LOLOLOLOLOL

greenpeach
08-22-2004, 10:27 PM
:angry: :cuss: :angry: :cuss: WE NEEDED ONE FRICKING BASE HIT TO TIE THE F***ING GAME. GOD DAMN IT
That's exactly why they're dismantling the team during the Winter months. If these guys don't hit HRS they don't score. Period.

misty60481
08-22-2004, 10:27 PM
I dont know what our record is since the Tori Hunter- Jamie Burke mess but I think that is when Ozzie lost this team, they have been playing like zombies ever since. I also think one day Ozzie will be a good manager but he is in over his head and getting deeper every day.This team cannot compete without Maggs & Frank as far as Ozzie ball or small ball it cant be done at the Cell, we work our ass off for 2 runs and some 225 hitter comes up and pops it over fence with 2 on and we start all over, in the Old Comiskey it was different--no cheap homers they just said tonite that Cell has most homers in majors.

SomebodyToldMe
08-22-2004, 10:27 PM
[simpsons quote] This...is a black day in baseball[/simpsons quote]

This is/was/will forever be an embarrassing season.

That's all I can say.

This is what it feels like...when we're under .500

Wealz
08-22-2004, 10:28 PM
With a couple exceptions, most notably Konerko, CLee and Rowand, the Sox seemed to have quit. They can roll over and play dead better then my trusted dog. Oh woe is me.
I can't tell you who hasn't quit, I suspect the list is longer than that, but one guy who quit about 3 years ago is Robbie Alomar.

losingugly2004
08-22-2004, 10:30 PM
This team sucks, Ozzie doesn't. You're telling me Crede, Gload, Perez, and Harris constitute a championship team? Sparky Anderson, Earl Weaver, John McGraw and Connie Mack couldn't join alliances and win a division with this club.

This is making me puke. That lard ass in left field fell down like an idiot, then he laughed because you know the White Sox aren't gonna make you pay for it. Can't even get a fly ball. Well, check that, they can but only when there are two outs. Then they're great at it.

That's what frosts my a** lately. It's the fact that all these teams seem to be laughing at the White Sox and their ineptitude. I never would have figured there were so many Red Sox fans in the Chicagoland area. Maybe they knew they were going to sweep and they came in from out of town for this momentous occasion.

Kiss 2004 Good-bye, this team is DNR... Do not resuscitate.

A. Cavatica
08-22-2004, 10:31 PM
Word was Ozzie was going to do for this team what Tony Pena did for KC.

And he did...twice as fast.

losingugly2004
08-22-2004, 10:32 PM
Word was Ozzie was going to do for this team what Tony Pena did for KC.

And he did...twice as fast.
If KC had 19 more games with us, they'd be competing for the AL Central crown.

Wealz
08-22-2004, 10:33 PM
I dont know what our record is since the Tori Hunter- Jamie Burke mess but I think that is when Ozzie lost this team, they have been playing like zombies ever since. I also think one day Ozzie will be a good manager but he is in over his head and getting deeper every day.This team cannot compete without Maggs & Frank as far as Ozzie ball or small ball it cant be done at the Cell, we work our ass off for 2 runs and some 225 hitter comes up and pops it over fence with 2 on and we start all over, in the Old Comiskey it was different--no cheap homers they just said tonite that Cell has most homers in majors.
100% correct about the infatuation everyone has with small ball. It isn't going to work at the cell. The Sox can't afford a slick fielding 2B or SS who doesn't slug the baseball.

HaroMaster87
08-22-2004, 10:36 PM
anybody else beside me think that we have to move the fences back seeing as how supposedly after this year we are going to try and go to a team built on pitching and defense anyway???

Lip Man 1
08-22-2004, 10:39 PM
God our bullpen is awful. Adkins, Cotts, Jackson are atrocious and I don't what happened to Marte...maybe that contract?

Wealz:

Just wondering...have you even watched the Sox the past four years? What has hitting 250 home runs a year won for them?

They need to make a change. I don't know if playing 'small ball' will work starting next season but I do know this being 'home run happy' hasn't done squat.

'It's time...' for a change.

Lip

batmanZoSo
08-22-2004, 10:41 PM
100% correct about the infatuation everyone has with small ball. It isn't going to work at the cell. The Sox can't afford a slick fielding 2B or SS who doesn't slug the baseball.
That's absolute garbage. Small ball works everywhere. Building your team around your park means you're good half the time. Did you catch that other stat they were saying on the telecast? We have like the biggest home run drop off away from our park than any other team. All those first row homers are pop ups on the road. Small ball is the way to go, I don't care what park you play in. You have to be able to do it. It never slumps.

greenpeach
08-22-2004, 10:41 PM
100% correct about the infatuation everyone has with small ball. It isn't going to work at the cell. The Sox can't afford a slick fielding 2B or SS who doesn't slug the baseball.
Maybe it's time to move the fences back. It's a helluva lot cheaper to build a team around pitching , speed & defense. I'm not saying that we should dump all of our power hitters, but we do need to get some speed guys at the top of the order who can get on base & help us manufacture runs. Very few teams can build a winning team around playing station-to-station baseball because good power hitters are at a premium on the open market. We simply don't have a big enough payroll to build such a lineup.

losingugly2004
08-22-2004, 10:44 PM
God our bullpen is awful. Adkins, Cotts, Jackson are atrocious and I don't what happened to Marte...maybe that contract?

Wealz:

Just wondering...have you even watched the Sox the past four years? What has hitting 250 home runs a year won for them?

They need to make a change. I don't know if playing 'small ball' will work starting next season but I do know this being 'home run happy' hasn't done squat.

'It's time...' for a change.

Lip
"Small ball" will never work when players can't bunt, or hit the ball to the proper side of the field on the hit and run. When they bring players in that can do these things as well as field consistently, then perhaps we can play the game the way it was meant to be played.

SomebodyToldMe
08-22-2004, 10:45 PM
One more thing: I feel today's loss was because of the ump making Freddy take off that bracelet at the beginning of the game.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-22-2004, 10:45 PM
'It's time...' for a change.

Stop blaming the hitters. You want real change? Offer some top-flight pitchers long-term contracts. "Small ball" ain't got nuthin' to do with it.

:reinsy
"Long-term contracts? Stop it! Stop it! I'm going to wet my pants from hysterical laughter!"

mealfred13
08-22-2004, 10:46 PM
How about we move the outfield walls back by about 30 feet. How's that for renovations? No homeruns at U.S. Cellular field.

edit: Apparently 2 people beat me to the punch....sounds like a plan then.

bluestar
08-22-2004, 10:47 PM
anybody else beside me think that we have to move the fences back seeing as how supposedly after this year we are going to try and go to a team built on pitching and defense anyway???
Definitely. No matter what kind of team they try to build for next year, the fences HAVE to be moved back. If they don't, no pitcher is going to want to pitch for the Sox.

Wealz
08-22-2004, 10:52 PM
God our bullpen is awful. Adkins, Cotts, Jackson are atrocious and I don't what happened to Marte...maybe that contract?

Wealz:

Just wondering...have you even watched the Sox the past four years? What has hitting 250 home runs a year won for them?

They need to make a change. I don't know if playing 'small ball' will work starting next season but I do know this being 'home run happy' hasn't done squat.

'It's time...' for a change.

Lip
Small ball doesn't work in this day and age, it isn't the dead ball era.

Bucktown
08-22-2004, 10:52 PM
Ozzie looked up from the floor of the dugout to make the following moves:


Leave in Garcia: Gave up game tying home run
Bring in Marte: Gave up game winning home run
Pinch run Robbie Alomar: tags up instead of going half way which costs the Sox the game tying run
Calls for the Valentin bunt: K
Pinch hit Gload: Pops up with they tying run at third and 1 out
Bring in Takatsu: Hey, that worked
Pinch hit Perez: Nothing

Fungo
08-22-2004, 10:52 PM
How about we move the outfield walls back by about 30 feet. How's that for renovations? No homeruns at U.S. Cellular field.

edit: Apparently 2 people beat me to the punch....sounds like a plan then.How are we supposed to score then? We live and died by the home run.

mealfred13
08-22-2004, 10:53 PM
Small ball doesn't work in this day and age, it isn't the dead ball era.
The Angels? The Marlins? Did I miss something the past couple seasons? Small ball works like a charm.

losingugly2004
08-22-2004, 10:53 PM
I found it ironic that if you type in the words "White Sox" in the Amazon.com book search you find an entry written by ESPN announcer Joe Morgan entitled Baseball for Dummies.

OurBitchinMinny
08-22-2004, 10:54 PM
I had never seen manny ramirez run hard in my life. But he sure took off after that ball he dropped. This team blows. Only 1 decent guy in the pen. Thats right marte fans only 1. Marte blows. thank god its almost football season

greenpeach
08-22-2004, 10:54 PM
Small ball doesn't work in this day and age, it isn't the dead ball era.
If that's the case then someone forgot to inform the Marlins last year.

misty60481
08-22-2004, 10:57 PM
one good thing Shingo I liked the look on Ramarizs face when Shingo threw that 3rd strike, Cabrerro or whoever about threw his back out of joint on his swing

Wealz
08-22-2004, 10:59 PM
That's absolute garbage. Small ball works everywhere. Building your team around your park means you're good half the time. Did you catch that other stat they were saying on the telecast? We have like the biggest home run drop off away from our park than any other team. All those first row homers are pop ups on the road. Small ball is the way to go, I don't care what park you play in. You have to be able to do it. It never slumps.
Know why we have thie biggest home-to-road homer difference? Because guys like Konerko and Lee aren't anything more than average offensive players for their positions. Put them in the cell and their numbers look a lot better than when you put them say in the Metrodome. I mention Konerko and Lee beacause of the high percentage of payroll they're taking up.

losingugly2004
08-22-2004, 11:01 PM
one good thing Shingo I liked the look on Ramarizs face when Shingo threw that 3rd strike, Cabrerro or whoever about threw his back out of joint on his swing
Yeah, Shingo and his gongshow were the only bright spot after that pathetic effort in both halves of the 8th inning.

Lip Man 1
08-22-2004, 11:03 PM
Wealz:

Again I ask what has hitting 250 home runs a year done for the Sox the past four years?????

Answer: NOTHING.

Thank you.

Lip

Wealz
08-22-2004, 11:03 PM
If that's the case then someone forgot to inform the Marlins last year.
Huh? Rodriguez, Lowell, and Cabrerra? They scored a lot of runs in the postseason.

Wealz
08-22-2004, 11:04 PM
Wealz:

Again I ask what has hitting 250 home runs a year done for the Sox the past four years?????

Answer: NOTHING.

Thank you.

Lip
You're equating hitting home runs with losing? Interesting.

Win1ForMe
08-22-2004, 11:05 PM
Bad hitting, bad pitching, bad managing. What hasn't gone wrong?

OurBitchinMinny
08-22-2004, 11:05 PM
This team doesnt lose because it hits HRs. It loses because its crappy leadoff guys never get on. It loses because its a bad situational team. It loses because its got as bad a bullpen as I can recall. It loses because it is poorly managed. And it loses because it has little to no heart. Not because of HRS.

MisterB
08-22-2004, 11:07 PM
Huh? Rodriguez, Lowell, and Cabrerra? They scored a lot of runs in the postseason.
Obviously you haven't looked at the Marlins regular season stats from last year.

greenpeach
08-22-2004, 11:10 PM
Huh? Rodriguez, Lowell, and Cabrerra? They scored a lot of runs in the postseason.
They scored a lot of runs because they were able to manufacture them on a consistent basis. The Marlins playoff run was a direct result of timely hitting & strong starting pitching. They weren't reliant on the three run homer.

JoseCanseco6969
08-22-2004, 11:12 PM
Word was Ozzie was going to do for this team what Tony Pena did for KC.

And he did...twice as fast.
yeah what a great post!!! yeah it is all Ozzie's fault AND pena's fault for injuries and lack of replacement talent.

Can't anyone just admit that we suck without Frank, Maggs, no bullpen, no 4th or 5th starter and no defense??
Ozzie did his best in his FIRST year as manager and if you think JM wouldve done better, then go find old ghandi and praise him for the great job he did with us and how sh***y we have it with Ozzie

PaleHoseGeorge
08-22-2004, 11:13 PM
80+ years of losing... most of them spent playing the game as though the dead-ball era were still here... even the "golden age" of Sox baseball back in the 50's comprised of hardly more than also-ran teams to the small-ball Bronx Bombers and Cleveland Indians, the only exception being 1959 when New York spent significant time in last place... and now we're treated to revisionist history about how hitting home runs has made the Sox into losers... I'm speechless at the stupidity of it all...

:?:

dcb33
08-22-2004, 11:16 PM
You're equating hitting home runs with losing? Interesting.Well hitting home runs exclusively hasn't done jack for us either. The Sox and Yankees, if they continue at their present pace, stand to be the first 2 teams to hit 200 home runs in 5 consecutive seasons. My God, you'd think that with all the home runs we would've been a shoe-in to face the Yankees in the ALCS every single year.
The thing is, you have to do more than hit home runs to score runs and win, which we can't do (the 8th inning of tonight's train wreck comes to mind), so yes, I will equate home runs with losing if the team hitting the home runs is stupid, slow, and does nothing but try to hit home runs.

Wealz
08-22-2004, 11:20 PM
Obviously you haven't looked at the Marlins regular season stats from last year.
Okay, say the Marlins played small ball during the regular season last year. They had a .654 winning percentage at home, in a pitchers park, and only a .469 winning percentage on the road. Isn't it fair to conclude then that playing small ball hurt them on when they went on the road?

I also forgot Derek Lee in listing the Marlins heavy hitters.

dcb33
08-22-2004, 11:27 PM
Okay, say the Marlins played small ball during the regular season last year. They had a .654 winning percentage at home, in a pitchers park, and only a .469 winning percentage on the road. Isn't it fair to conclude then that playing small ball hurt them on when they went on the road?

I also forgot Derek Lee in listing the Marlins heavy hitters.

No, becuase all a team needs to do to be successful and make the playoffs is play 650 ball at home and near 500 ball on the road. If you can do that, you stand a good chance of getting to the postseason.

nasox
08-22-2004, 11:52 PM
It's officially over. What small tiny bit of hope I keep locked in my heart with huge locks and chains on it is gone. Nice knowing it I guess. :angry:

TornLabrum
08-23-2004, 12:15 AM
:angry: :cuss: :angry: :cuss: WE NEEDED ONE FRICKING BASE HIT TO TIE THE F***ING GAME. GOD DAMN ITAnd it was all Ozzie's fault that we didn't get it. and that baserunning gaffe by Alomar was Ozzie's fault, too.

TornLabrum
08-23-2004, 12:21 AM
Stop blaming the hitters. You want real change? Offer some top-flight pitchers long-term contracts. "Small ball" ain't got nuthin' to do with it.

:reinsy
"Long-term contracts? Stop it! Stop it! I'm going to wet my pants from hysterical laughter!"
That's part of what they need. They also need some players at the top of the batting order who can get on base and who are actually a threat to steal bases. And yes, they still need some power hitters.

It's called balance. Pitching, hitting, and defense are like a milking stool. It takes three legs to make it stable. The Sox have been trying for over 50 years (as long as I've been a fan) to use a stool that has one or two legs. We've all seen how well it works.

TornLabrum
08-23-2004, 12:25 AM
You're equating hitting home runs with losing? Interesting.
Look at all the winning we've done relying on the home run? What the heck is Lip thinking?????

JB98
08-23-2004, 12:50 AM
This is arguably the worst postgame thread I have ever read in my life. There is so much crap being posted tonight that I don't even know how to begin my retort. Anyway...

First of all, the White Sox have not quit, as many of you claim. A team that has quit does not rally from an early 4-0 deficit to take a 5-4 lead after seven innings against one of the American League's best teams. The Sox are not losing because of lack of heart or lack of effort. The Sox are losing because they are not very good. The starters are struggling early in games. The bullpen is overworked and the lack of depth in relief pitching that myself, Lip and others have preached about all year is being exposed. As we've been over a million times, the offense lacks firepower due to the injuries. That being said, I saw good at-bats from a lot of guys tonight against Lowe. We were able to wear him down and get to him as the game progressed, but our pitching staff just isn't good enough to get the job done right now. That's the bottom line. We scored seven runs yesterday and five tonight. Those should be wins.

Secondly, this notion of moving the fences back and playing small ball remains totally ridiculous. Anyone who thinks the Marlins were a small ball team last year didn't watch the NLCS. Florida beat the Cubs with HRs and big innings, not with SBs and bunts. That's a fact. There's nothing wrong with hitting home runs. We need to add some speed to the lineup for next year, so we can steal more bases and hit and run. That's what the Angels like to do, and it won them a title in 2002. I hope the White Sox never attempt a bunt again. Bunting is a waste of an out. I think pitchers should have to earn all 27 outs to beat us.

Third, Ozzie is not an idiot, although he struggles to handle the pitching staff. I think any manager would look stupid trying to punch the right buttons with this bullpen. For the record, I would have brought in Politte to face Ramirez in the eighth, and I would have had Shingo start the ninth instead of Cotts. But let's face it, Ozzie is choosing amongst a host of bad options in the late innings.

Fourth, I can't believe people are being critical of the decisions to pinch-hit Gload and Perez. Those moves were right on the mark. You can't put Borchard and Crede up in those spots. Both those guys suck. Gload and Perez both had 10 or 11-pitch at-bats. I'm actually surprised neither one of them came through.

Fifth, I don't understand why people are flying off the handle about the Sox struggles. I knew this team was cooked after we got swept by the Twins. You all are a victim of your own expectations. I tried to warn you optimists, and you all pretty much accused me of taking a dump in your cereal or whatever. Fine, but you have to be realistic about what you see on the field. Blind hope is worth nothing.

I'm done ranting. Flame away.

TornLabrum
08-23-2004, 01:27 AM
This is arguably the worst postgame thread I have ever read in my life. There is so much crap being posted tonight that I don't even know how to begin my retort. Anyway...

First of all, the White Sox have not quit, as many of you claim. A team that has quit does not rally from an early 4-0 deficit to take a 5-4 lead after seven innings against one of the American League's best teams. The Sox are not losing because of lack of heart or lack of effort. The Sox are losing because they are not very good. The starters are struggling early in games. The bullpen is overworked and the lack of depth in relief pitching that myself, Lip and others have preached about all year is being exposed. As we've been over a million times, the offense lacks firepower due to the injuries. That being said, I saw good at-bats from a lot of guys tonight against Lowe. We were able to wear him down and get to him as the game progressed, but our pitching staff just isn't good enough to get the job done right now. That's the bottom line. We scored seven runs yesterday and five tonight. Those should be wins.

Secondly, this notion of moving the fences back and playing small ball remains totally ridiculous. Anyone who thinks the Marlins were a small ball team last year didn't watch the NLCS. Florida beat the Cubs with HRs and big innings, not with SBs and bunts. That's a fact. There's nothing wrong with hitting home runs. We need to add some speed to the lineup for next year, so we can steal more bases and hit and run. That's what the Angels like to do, and it won them a title in 2002. I hope the White Sox never attempt a bunt again. Bunting is a waste of an out. I think pitchers should have to earn all 27 outs to beat us.

Third, Ozzie is not an idiot, although he struggles to handle the pitching staff. I think any manager would look stupid trying to punch the right buttons with this bullpen. For the record, I would have brought in Politte to face Ramirez in the eighth, and I would have had Shingo start the ninth instead of Cotts. But let's face it, Ozzie is choosing amongst a host of bad options in the late innings.

Fourth, I can't believe people are being critical of the decisions to pinch-hit Gload and Perez. Those moves were right on the mark. You can't put Borchard and Crede up in those spots. Both those guys suck. Gload and Perez both had 10 or 11-pitch at-bats. I'm actually surprised neither one of them came through.

Fifth, I don't understand why people are flying off the handle about the Sox struggles. I knew this team was cooked after we got swept by the Twins. You all are a victim of your own expectations. I tried to warn you optimists, and you all pretty much accused me of taking a dump in your cereal or whatever. Fine, but you have to be realistic about what you see on the field. Blind hope is worth nothing.

I'm done ranting. Flame away.
I'd like to follow up this post with some thoughts of my own.

Following the WSI boards has to be like living with someone afflicted with bipolar disorder. If the team wins two in a row, we're pennant contenders. If we lose two in a row, then it's time to gut the team.

There are several problems with this entire thread, the two greatest of which are the failure to recognize that this team was doomed the minute it was apparent that both Thomas and Ordonez would be gone for the rest of the season. This only magnified the fact that we have so many holes.

This team was set up around Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, and Konerko. It was also set up in the hopes that Joe Crede would have a full year like last year's second half, that Jon Garland would have a breakout year, that Jose Valentin would hit well over .230, that someone (anyone!) would emerge as a fifth starter, that Damaso Marte would continue to pitch as well as he has in the past, that we could get by with a young catcher in tandem with an over-the-hill catcher, that Willie Harris would emerge as a leadoff hitter, and that Billy Koch would return to form.

In other words, It was built around 4 sluggers and the hope that their home run production would make up for any failure of the hopes listed above to come to fruition.

Well, half of those sluggers went down, and most of those hopes were dashed. And the net result? The conclusion that Ozzie Guillen is a lousy manager!

Now let's remember why we all had to rely on all that hope. It's because Jerry Reinsdorf saddled Kenny Williams with a $52 million budget that somehow Williams managed to stretch to $63 million because he couldn't work a trade for one of the two people who, as it turned out, was essential to the success of the team that he ended up having to field.

The Sox were winning before Maggs went down. They played just under .500 ball after he went down. They've tanked since both he and Thomas went down. What else did you all expect?

They lost a potential 80 home runs and 200+ RBI, and even before they went down we were all lamenting the number of solo home runs. Why did you think they were hitting solo home runs? Perhaps its because the hitters ahead of them weren't getting on base.

Is small ball the answer? No, not by itself! The Sox need a balanced offense. They also need more than four starting pitchers. They need a consistent bullpen. And they need defense. Those are the three legs: pitching, defense, and a balanced attack.

Of course that answer is so simple, it eludes most people, including the ones running the Sox apparently.

StepsInSC
08-23-2004, 06:13 AM
Is small ball the answer? No, not by itself! The Sox need a balanced offense. They also need more than four starting pitchers. They need a consistent bullpen. And they need defense. Those are the three legs: pitching, defense, and a balanced attack.

Of course that answer is so simple, it eludes most people, including the ones running the Sox apparently.And yet so many people just continue to yell out "smallball! smallball!". To say the Marlins won the game "via smallball" takes away a lot of credit that their pitching staff and their hitters deserve, as they had many clutch hits throughout the season that were not reliant upon smallball.

However if the correct situation arose, they had players who could execute fundamentals. I think that's the difference, because smallball is an extension of fundamentals, something this team has not been good at in a very long time.

white sox bill
08-23-2004, 06:28 AM
Back the truck up Kenny, start unloading before Aug 31 deadline. Problem w/that is we have such a p*ss poor farm system. If we rely on player developemnt, the next 3 yrs could be long. Real long. In the mean time, out neighboors to the north are stealing hearts left and right. Soon the Sox will be buried as far down fan base wise, we may consider a move to Montreal.

JRIG
08-23-2004, 06:50 AM
I did a little research on the Marlins last year. It's not scientific, but it's the best I can do.

Going through the Game Logs from last year's playoffs, the alleged "Small-Ball" Marlins scored a grand total of 9 runs through Small Ball means -- stolen base, sac bunt, or hitting behind the runner are the ones I looked for. The team scored 77 runs in the playoffs and only 11.7% were a result of "Small-Ball." And I'm not talking about extreme measures -- most of the bunts made good baseball strategy. This wasn't a single, SB, bunt, sac fly kind of manufacturing.

Small ball would be the death of this team or two reasons. 1) It's not the dead-ball era anymore and 2) Comiskey is such an extreme hitters' park.

Just get some freaking guys who can get on base. Stop blaming the guys who hit home runs AND ACTUALLY SCORE RUNS. Place the blame on guys not getting on in front of the home run ball.

hsnterprize
08-23-2004, 07:36 AM
I'd like to follow up this post with some thoughts of my own.

Following the WSI boards has to be like living with someone afflicted with bipolar disorder. If the team wins two in a row, we're pennant contenders. If we lose two in a row, then it's time to gut the team.

There are several problems with this entire thread, the two greatest of which are the failure to recognize that this team was doomed the minute it was apparent that both Thomas and Ordonez would be gone for the rest of the season. This only magnified the fact that we have so many holes.

This team was set up around Ordonez, Thomas, Lee, and Konerko. It was also set up in the hopes that Joe Crede would have a full year like last year's second half, that Jon Garland would have a breakout year, that Jose Valentin would hit well over .230, that someone (anyone!) would emerge as a fifth starter, that Damaso Marte would continue to pitch as well as he has in the past, that we could get by with a young catcher in tandem with an over-the-hill catcher, that Willie Harris would emerge as a leadoff hitter, and that Billy Koch would return to form.

In other words, It was built around 4 sluggers and the hope that their home run production would make up for any failure of the hopes listed above to come to fruition.

Well, half of those sluggers went down, and most of those hopes were dashed. And the net result? The conclusion that Ozzie Guillen is a lousy manager!

Now let's remember why we all had to rely on all that hope. It's because Jerry Reinsdorf saddled Kenny Williams with a $52 million budget that somehow Williams managed to stretch to $63 million because he couldn't work a trade for one of the two people who, as it turned out, was essential to the success of the team that he ended up having to field.

The Sox were winning before Maggs went down. They played just under .500 ball after he went down. They've tanked since both he and Thomas went down. What else did you all expect?

They lost a potential 80 home runs and 200+ RBI, and even before they went down we were all lamenting the number of solo home runs. Why did you think they were hitting solo home runs? Perhaps its because the hitters ahead of them weren't getting on base.

Is small ball the answer? No, not by itself! The Sox need a balanced offense. They also need more than four starting pitchers. They need a consistent bullpen. And they need defense. Those are the three legs: pitching, defense, and a balanced attack.

Of course that answer is so simple, it eludes most people, including the ones running the Sox apparently.Hal,

I think I can sum up our feelings like this...we're so desperate to see our team win and defy the odds that even though points like yours were out since Maggs and Frank went down, we as a whole really didn't want to see it. Let's face it...we want our team to win. We want our team to be the talk of the town, the talk of the baseball world, and the talk of the sports world. And even the most minute negative commentary about our team brings out the worst in us. I guess that's what happens when you follow a team that has to fight through so many walls to get noticed versus a team that simply has to exist in order to get positive press. What you, me, and several others have noted is so true...the "wait 'til next year" mantra so familiar to the Cubs' fans is so "in", that even though many Cubs' fans are upset with their team's non-overhyped-dominance this year, they're willing to accept a failure to make the post-season, and the perception of the fans won't change. Yet, if we lament about our team's failures, we're either perceived as "whiny", "jealous", "bitter", and other ajdectives that paint us and the Sox as the team/fans to avoid rather than embrace.

Let's face it, being associated with this team in one way or another can either be a blessing or a curse. The only difference between our situation and the Cubs' fans situation is that our suffering is ignored while their suffering is glorified (lemme tell ya something you didn't already know). I personally wanted to believe this team could somehow do the impossible and win without their 2 biggest boppers in the lineup. Believe me, I did, and I don't blame you for thinking I'm a little foolish for thinking like that. However, I'm a proud Sox fan, and I want to believe in my team. This team was built to win, and I'd been saying so much this team has what it takes to win and "bite 'em in the ass" like Ozzie and Frank said in Arizona in March. I wanted so badly to rub it into Cubs fans faces with their overhyped banter...and now I can only hope I don't have to deal with a Cubbified October. That's a shame I and others have to resort to rooting against our rivals rather than cheering for our own team, but if our team isn't worth the breath that comes out of our mouths, then what else is there?

Say what you will, but I'll be objective enough to at least tip my cap to the north siders if they're able to win the NL Wildcard. If they to that, you can count on the hype being about overcoming all the injuries and adversities to make the post-season. You can forget the "blaming everyone but themselves", arguing with umpires, bitching at booing fans, falling concrete, and other stories about the Cubs if they somehow pull this off. And if they do, we as Sox fans as a whole will really be put through the ringer as far as "why aren't we supporting BOTH teams" by Cub fans and the Cubbie-loving media...COUNT ON IT!!!!! If you think last year was bad...you don't want to think about this fall if the apocolypse happens.

That's my rant, Hal. I read your article, and I thought it was really neat. Just thought I'd contribute my $.02 worth to your commentary.

Dan H
08-23-2004, 07:51 AM
No, small ball alone won't win anything, but as the eighth inning against the Red Sox illustrated, there are times when failure to execute costs you a game. The Sox only need a fly ball to tie the game, and they ended up with a foul pop to third.

The Sox had some great teams in the '60's but couldn't get to the Series because they had no every day impact offensive players. Now their pitching staff is thin and defense is weak. It is safe to say that a team needs balance. Of course, the Sox were hurt by the loss of Ordonez and Thomas. But the loss of those two players only exposed the team's other weaknesses. Like Lip said, it is time for a change.

Iguana775
08-23-2004, 08:10 AM
No, small ball alone won't win anything, but as the eighth inning against the Red Sox illustrated, there are times when failure to execute costs you a game. The Sox only need a fly ball to tie the game, and they ended up with a foul pop to third.

The Sox had some great teams in the '60's but couldn't get to the Series because they had no every day impact offensive players. Now their pitching staff is thin and defense is weak. It is safe to say that a team needs balance. Of course, the Sox were hurt by the loss of Ordonez and Thomas. But the loss of those two players only exposed the team's other weaknesses. Like Lip said, it is time for a change.
even a ground ball would have gotten the job done.

TornLabrum
08-23-2004, 09:44 AM
Hal,

I think I can sum up our feelings like this...we're so desperate to see our team win and defy the odds that even though points like yours were out since Maggs and Frank went down, we as a whole really didn't want to see it. Let's face it...we want our team to win. We want our team to be the talk of the town, the talk of the baseball world, and the talk of the sports world. And even the most minute negative commentary about our team brings out the worst in us. I guess that's what happens when you follow a team that has to fight through so many walls to get noticed versus a team that simply has to exist in order to get positive press. What you, me, and several others have noted is so true...the "wait 'til next year" mantra so familiar to the Cubs' fans is so "in", that even though many Cubs' fans are upset with their team's non-overhyped-dominance this year, they're willing to accept a failure to make the post-season, and the perception of the fans won't change. Yet, if we lament about our team's failures, we're either perceived as "whiny", "jealous", "bitter", and other ajdectives that paint us and the Sox as the team/fans to avoid rather than embrace.

Let's face it, being associated with this team in one way or another can either be a blessing or a curse. The only difference between our situation and the Cubs' fans situation is that our suffering is ignored while their suffering is glorified (lemme tell ya something you didn't already know). I personally wanted to believe this team could somehow do the impossible and win without their 2 biggest boppers in the lineup. Believe me, I did, and I don't blame you for thinking I'm a little foolish for thinking like that. However, I'm a proud Sox fan, and I want to believe in my team. This team was built to win, and I'd been saying so much this team has what it takes to win and "bite 'em in the ass" like Ozzie and Frank said in Arizona in March. I wanted so badly to rub it into Cubs fans faces with their overhyped banter...and now I can only hope I don't have to deal with a Cubbified October. That's a shame I and others have to resort to rooting against our rivals rather than cheering for our own team, but if our team isn't worth the breath that comes out of our mouths, then what else is there?

Say what you will, but I'll be objective enough to at least tip my cap to the north siders if they're able to win the NL Wildcard. If they to that, you can count on the hype being about overcoming all the injuries and adversities to make the post-season. You can forget the "blaming everyone but themselves", arguing with umpires, bitching at booing fans, falling concrete, and other stories about the Cubs if they somehow pull this off. And if they do, we as Sox fans as a whole will really be put through the ringer as far as "why aren't we supporting BOTH teams" by Cub fans and the Cubbie-loving media...COUNT ON IT!!!!! If you think last year was bad...you don't want to think about this fall if the apocolypse happens.

That's my rant, Hal. I read your article, and I thought it was really neat. Just thought I'd contribute my $.02 worth to your commentary.


I know exactly where you're coming from. I would have loved to have had some hope after Maggs and Frank went down, but you could just see where the problems were. I was hoping against hope that I'd be wrong, and I'd probably give a body part (from the left side) to be wrong.

If the Cubs do make it to the Wild Card, I plan on grading papers or something through the entire month of October, or until the Cubs are eliminated, whichever comes first. Meanwhile, the last I saw the Jackhammers were in first place and I already have my Cougars playoff tickets, so I'm at least good for the first half of September.

TornLabrum
08-23-2004, 09:46 AM
No, small ball alone won't win anything, but as the eighth inning against the Red Sox illustrated, there are times when failure to execute costs you a game. The Sox only need a fly ball to tie the game, and they ended up with a foul pop to third.

The Sox had some great teams in the '60's but couldn't get to the Series because they had no every day impact offensive players. Now their pitching staff is thin and defense is weak. It is safe to say that a team needs balance. Of course, the Sox were hurt by the loss of Ordonez and Thomas. But the loss of those two players only exposed the team's other weaknesses. Like Lip said, it is time for a change.
I agree, as long as the change puts three legs on that milk stool and not just two. I have to admit that I was wrong about Valentin's at bat in the eighth. I told Jeff that he'd strike out looking.

KingXerxes
08-23-2004, 09:58 AM
Allow me to vent a liitle bit here.

I usually don't get too worked up over a loss - or even a bad stretch - but if last night doesn't convince everybody watching the White Sox that Jose Valentin has to go, then I don't know what will.

This lemon has been held out for way too long as some sort of leader, who gets the team motivated and has the respect of everybody in the clubhouse. Please.

I will never know what the attraction is with him. He's a .230 power hitter with limited range and a suspect glove. I wish he were modeling underwear in Abercrombie & Fitch's fall catalog rather than wearing a White Sox uniform. His neatly trimmed mustachio might really catch an eye or two - but in no way does it help to win a game.

He's not a "gamer", he's not a tough guy, he's not anything except a well groomed shrimp who CAN'T BUNT IN A GAME SITUATION.

When they signed this dud again in 2004 I was beside myself. Shake a tree and twenty good fielding shortstops will fall out. Now it goes without saying that not too many of them would hit 25 home runs, but most of them would hit .225 AND COULD BUNT WHEN THEY WERE ASKED.

JB98
08-23-2004, 01:13 PM
I did a little research on the Marlins last year. It's not scientific, but it's the best I can do.

Going through the Game Logs from last year's playoffs, the alleged "Small-Ball" Marlins scored a grand total of 9 runs through Small Ball means -- stolen base, sac bunt, or hitting behind the runner are the ones I looked for. The team scored 77 runs in the playoffs and only 11.7% were a result of "Small-Ball." And I'm not talking about extreme measures -- most of the bunts made good baseball strategy. This wasn't a single, SB, bunt, sac fly kind of manufacturing.

Small ball would be the death of this team or two reasons. 1) It's not the dead-ball era anymore and 2) Comiskey is such an extreme hitters' park.

Just get some freaking guys who can get on base. Stop blaming the guys who hit home runs AND ACTUALLY SCORE RUNS. Place the blame on guys not getting on in front of the home run ball.
Thank you. Great post. I'm tired of these people wailing "SMALL BALL!!!! SMALL BALL!!!!!" every time we lose a game. I agree we need some contact hitters with speed for the top of our batting order. However, these players need to be acquired TO COMPLEMENT OUR POWER HITTERS, not at the expense of our power hitters. Let's build an offense around the power of Lee, Konerko and Thomas, as well as the multidimensional Rowand. I look at 2B, SS, 3B and RF as the positions we need help at. We don't necessarily need to trade the big boys to get it done. Most tablesetters are in the middle-class of baseball's salary structure and can be acquired for a reasonable price.