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View Full Version : Just wasnt meant to be


OurBitchinMinny
08-22-2004, 03:11 PM
I dont know what it is about this group of players. On paper the white sox should be 5 time central division champs, but instead they have only won 1 out of the last 5. Maybe its time to make some significant changes. Not a complete overhaul, but this core group has not got it done. This year is mainly a product of injuries. You just cant replace 75+ HRs and 200+ RBIs that was lost when thomas and ordonez both went out for good in july. But that cant solely be blamed. Lack of production out of the 5th starter. SS being up and down. Garland being up and down. And buerhle didnt live up to my expectations. He was great a lot of the time, but he also has bad games sometimes too, like against boston friday. Lets not forget how bad our "all star" was until we unloaded him on the yanks. And the bullpen is among the worst in baseball. It cant all be blamed on injuries is my point. Lets not forget the rookie manager making quite a few mistakes too. Too many things went wrong. Injuries were chiefly to blame.

There are postives for the future. The rotation should be pretty solid 1-4. Hoepfully the sox can sign a big name, making garland the #5. Sox need to improve the bullpen most of all. Shingo is a bright spot, but he will be 36 next year and the sox need to develop or sign a closer long term. I wouldnt care if we got rid of everyone in the pen except shingo and possibly marte. Cotts should be given a chance to start if the sox dont sign someone or used as trade bait. Hopefully ozzie will start to make better decisions and JR will open up his wallet. Cleveland and minny both look to be good for years to come, but they will never be great which means the sox should always have a chance. They have better minor league systems, but we should be able to outspend them. If JR would spend like he had a team in the 3rd biggest market, the sox would win almost every year.

A miracle could still happen this year, but the way the team is playing I give it about a 5% chance. You keep losing series to detroit and you are going nowhere. Hey at least its football season.

SoxPAguy
08-22-2004, 05:08 PM
I dont know what it is about this group of players. On paper the white sox should be 5 time central division champs, but instead they have only won 1 out of the last 5. Maybe its time to make some significant changes. Not a complete overhaul, but this core group has not got it done. This year is mainly a product of injuries. You just cant replace 75+ HRs and 200+ RBIs that was lost when thomas and ordonez both went out for good in july. But that cant solely be blamed. Lack of production out of the 5th starter. SS being up and down. Garland being up and down. And buerhle didnt live up to my expectations. He was great a lot of the time, but he also has bad games sometimes too, like against boston friday. Lets not forget how bad our "all star" was until we unloaded him on the yanks. And the bullpen is among the worst in baseball. It cant all be blamed on injuries is my point. Lets not forget the rookie manager making quite a few mistakes too. Too many things went wrong. Injuries were chiefly to blame.

There are postives for the future. The rotation should be pretty solid 1-4. Hoepfully the sox can sign a big name, making garland the #5. Sox need to improve the bullpen most of all. Shingo is a bright spot, but he will be 36 next year and the sox need to develop or sign a closer long term. I wouldnt care if we got rid of everyone in the pen except shingo and possibly marte. Cotts should be given a chance to start if the sox dont sign someone or used as trade bait. Hopefully ozzie will start to make better decisions and JR will open up his wallet. Cleveland and minny both look to be good for years to come, but they will never be great which means the sox should always have a chance. They have better minor league systems, but we should be able to outspend them. If JR would spend like he had a team in the 3rd biggest market, the sox would win almost every year.

A miracle could still happen this year, but the way the team is playing I give it about a 5% chance. You keep losing series to detroit and you are going nowhere. Hey at least its football season.
There is alot to be said and decided after this year. This year has made more and more obvious that as the team is constructed today they dont have what it takes to get the job done. Guys like crede,valentin,borchard, harris, alomar jr, cotts, jackson, adkins, schoenweis have shown they are not to be relied upon. They are not solid and consistent guys who can help this team. That is a lot of players to replace but KW has to do what he has to do. We can all see now garland is a #5 at best and we have no pen. We now know without frank and maggs our offense is below average. So its all out there and open for everyone to see. That is the good news. KW and JR cant say will be ok with cotts, SS and garland next year becuase we already saw them blow it this year. A lot of work needs to be done and a new group needs to be brought in to replace the guys mentioned above. It will be an interesting off season.

Nard
08-22-2004, 05:17 PM
I wouldn't throw Adkin's name out there. Doc is solid enough. What do you expect, a 0.00 ERA for the season?

MJ I think is on a revival tear. And he's still a veteran leader. In fact, he just called a players only meeting this past Friday after that terrible loss.

The hitters I agree with you completely, except for Crede. Something about that guy... he's got it, but he's just not there yet.

Borchie Boy is the worst player in the entire MLB. I can honestly say I would rather have any other outfielder playing in the majors right now than him.

DaveIsHere
08-22-2004, 05:29 PM
I guess looking at this season we can still see us at least having a chance next season. With this group aging we still have a good core to bring back and build upon. We are NOT rebuilding next year, we are just changing the team's focus. I really like Ozzie as the manager and I think he will bring us back at least a central pennant hopefully more. He is a baseball guy and he is bringing it to the table. I look forward for the upcoming years and I hope Ozzie is the manager for a time to come.

soxtalker
08-22-2004, 05:36 PM
I hope that they take a critical look at the entire organization, and I don't just mean the top positions (e.g., KW, Ozzie, ML coaches) that we get to see. Maybe it is specific people, maybe it is player evaluation, maybe it is development techniques, etc., but there has been a pretty consistent failure against teams in our division who have significantly less overall budget.

bc2k
08-22-2004, 06:43 PM
This team needs to be blown up. We have few, if any, irreplaceable players on the 40-man roster. Olivo and Reed were probably the two I most would have liked to have kept. Now that ARow is hitting, and has a low salary, he's a keeper too. Crede is a joke, Valentin will never learn, Harris doesn't have the talent.

Ozzie is a moron. I think he's a better manager of strategy than socially! His postgame comments and attitude must leave his semi-educated players shaking their heads. Plus they have to deal with this guy every day. Ozzie has failed at his most important job: getting 25 players, or hell even 9, to play sound fundametal, Twinslike baseball. I see no difference on August 22 of 2004 to 2003.

Our minor league instruction must be horrible as well. Looking only at the end result, our minor league system doesn't produce quality players. I don't like Cotts, but he will never amount to anything without different instruction at the minor league level.

dcb33
08-22-2004, 06:51 PM
I guess looking at this season we can still see us at least having a chance next season. With this group aging we still have a good core to bring back and build upon. We are NOT rebuilding next year, we are just changing the team's focus. I really like Ozzie as the manager and I think he will bring us back at least a central pennant hopefully more. He is a baseball guy and he is bringing it to the table. I look forward for the upcoming years and I hope Ozzie is the manager for a time to come.I like Ozzie as a hire, and I think they probably will rebuild the team next year around the style of ball he would like to play. Let's face it- it's time to blow up this core of players (Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Valentin, Crede, Ordonez) because this whole group is based around hitting the ball a mile, but when it comes to situational hitting or manufacturing runs against good pitching we just look slow and stupid. Even before Frank and Maggs were injured our offense was terribly inconsistent. How many times did we hear them say after a game against a good pitcher in which they lost "Well the other pitcher just had it tonight, and when they other guy is on, there's not much you can do." We couldn't hit good pitching before they went down, and we certainly can't now, and if we ever want to win a championship we're gonna have to get rid of this all or nothing long ball mentality that has infected this team. I'm not saying get rid of them all, but replace guys like Valentin, Crede, or Konerko with guys who can get on base and set the table for our sluggers.
We also need to change the mix becuase this team for years has developed this mental block over not being able to win out west and choking when the lights are on and the team needs a win. Ozzie hasn't changed the fact that we are still toast on the west coast and that we can't get the job done in big situations (the last series in which we got swept against Minnesota comes to mind). We can talk all day about how talented we are on paper and how fired up Ozzie is, but it's been proven that when we need to get it done we just trickle it down our legs, go home, and get written off as the medicore team we probably really are, just like we did when JM was manager. I for one am not up for another year of the same old garbage from this same core.

Etownsox13
08-22-2004, 06:53 PM
This team needs to be blown up. We have few, if any, irreplaceable players on the 40-man roster. Olivo and Reed were probably the two I most would have liked to have kept. Now that ARow is hitting, and has a low salary, he's a keeper too. Crede is a joke, Valentin will never learn, Harris doesn't have the talent.

Ozzie is a moron. I think he's a better manager of strategy than socially! His postgame comments and attitude must leave his semi-educated players shaking their heads. Plus they have to deal with this guy every day. Ozzie has failed at his most important job: getting 25 players, or hell even 9, to play sound fundametal, Twinslike baseball. I see no difference on August 22 of 2004 to 2003.

Our minor league instruction must be horrible as well. Looking only at the end result, our minor league system doesn't produce quality players. I don't like Cotts, but he will never amount to anything without different instruction at the minor league level.


I agree that the minor leagues haven't produced enough impact type players for the Sox in the past 4-5 years. There is something wrong with the way that the organization is drafting, and then on down the line in the minor leagues. The Sox need to scrap their whole scouting and player development departments, and start from scratch with a whole new organization philosophy (ie the A's and the Twins). Until guys start learning to play as a team at all levels of professional baseball, they are not going to be effective as a team in the majors.

Malgar 12
08-22-2004, 09:07 PM
I dont know what it is about this group of players. On paper the white sox should be 5 time central division champs, but instead they have only won 1 out of the last 5. Maybe its time to make some significant changes. Not a complete overhaul, but this core group has not got it done. This year is mainly a product of injuries. You just cant replace 75+ HRs and 200+ RBIs that was lost when thomas and ordonez both went out for good in july. But that cant solely be blamed. Lack of production out of the 5th starter. SS being up and down. Garland being up and down. And buerhle didnt live up to my expectations. He was great a lot of the time, but he also has bad games sometimes too, like against boston friday. Lets not forget how bad our "all star" was until we unloaded him on the yanks. And the bullpen is among the worst in baseball. It cant all be blamed on injuries is my point. Lets not forget the rookie manager making quite a few mistakes too. Too many things went wrong. Injuries were chiefly to blame.

There are postives for the future. The rotation should be pretty solid 1-4. Hoepfully the sox can sign a big name, making garland the #5. Sox need to improve the bullpen most of all. Shingo is a bright spot, but he will be 36 next year and the sox need to develop or sign a closer long term. I wouldnt care if we got rid of everyone in the pen except shingo and possibly marte. Cotts should be given a chance to start if the sox dont sign someone or used as trade bait. Hopefully ozzie will start to make better decisions and JR will open up his wallet. Cleveland and minny both look to be good for years to come, but they will never be great which means the sox should always have a chance. They have better minor league systems, but we should be able to outspend them. If JR would spend like he had a team in the 3rd biggest market, the sox would win almost every year.

A miracle could still happen this year, but the way the team is playing I give it about a 5% chance. You keep losing series to detroit and you are going nowhere. Hey at least its football season.
Maybe?

Lip Man 1
08-22-2004, 11:54 PM
Chifan Minnie:

Since 2001 the Sox haven't been able to find a 5th starter, some years they haven't even had a 4th starter!, they have had depth problems every season except 2003 (after the All Star Game), they have had the bullpen decimated with little depth and reliability the past three years.

They couldn't have been five time divisional champions if they were the only team in the division.

No other team in baseball has called itself a 'contender' yet had as many serious question marks as the Sox since 2001. It's laughable. They have been mediocre..period and the record shows this.

Lip

MikeW
08-23-2004, 12:13 AM
I am worried about the future as far as the farm system is concerned. There is not a single catching prospect all the way down to A ball. That is why trading Olivo was probably a mistake, even though I do like Freddy Garcia. But it would have been interesting to know if Seattle would have made the deal without Olivo included. And our pitching prospects are no great shakes either. Diaz and Munoz might be good someday, but after that there is not much. Another thing that concerns me is how many pitchers in our system the last few years have blown their arms out Wright,Malone and Honel for recent memory. If we are going to deal some of the 'big' names than replenish our almost barren system.

OurBitchinMinny
08-23-2004, 01:53 AM
Chifan Minnie:

Since 2001 the Sox haven't been able to find a 5th starter, some years they haven't even had a 4th starter!, they have had depth problems every season except 2003 (after the All Star Game), they have had the bullpen decimated with little depth and reliability the past three years.

They couldn't have been five time divisional champions if they were the only team in the division.

No other team in baseball has called itself a 'contender' yet had as many serious question marks as the Sox since 2001. It's laughable. They have been mediocre..period and the record shows this.

Lip
thats bull****...the twins are gonna win the division with terry mulholland and kyle lohse in their division. The white sox should be embarrassed. On paper they have had more talent. They have had two awful managers guiding them couple with a ****ty coaching staff. Way too many gutless guys too

JB98
08-23-2004, 02:05 AM
I like Ozzie as a hire, and I think they probably will rebuild the team next year around the style of ball he would like to play. Let's face it- it's time to blow up this core of players (Thomas, Lee, Konerko, Valentin, Crede, Ordonez) because this whole group is based around hitting the ball a mile, but when it comes to situational hitting or manufacturing runs against good pitching we just look slow and stupid. Even before Frank and Maggs were injured our offense was terribly inconsistent. How many times did we hear them say after a game against a good pitcher in which they lost "Well the other pitcher just had it tonight, and when they other guy is on, there's not much you can do." We couldn't hit good pitching before they went down, and we certainly can't now, and if we ever want to win a championship we're gonna have to get rid of this all or nothing long ball mentality that has infected this team. I'm not saying get rid of them all, but replace guys like Valentin, Crede, or Konerko with guys who can get on base and set the table for our sluggers.
You want to replace Konerko with somebody who can get on base and set the table for our sluggers? Um, first base is a slugging position, and Paulie is one of the best in the AL. If you think this team is bad now, where would we be without Konerko? The guy has been great for us all year. For some reason, people on this board have decided Konerko needs to go. I'm mystified. It's as if 31 HRs and 85 RBIs are a bad thing. The guy could go for 40 and 100 this year. It's a shame that he's being grouped with .230 hitters like Crede and Valentin in some of these posts.