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View Full Version : Why Can't We Beat The Teams We Should?


tlebar318
08-20-2004, 12:00 PM
This was supposed to be the time when we shifted into overdrive and took over the Central Division. Instead we keep losing to the Tigers, Royals, and Twins. What gives? Where has the "spark" gone that Ozzie was giving us earlier in the year? In watching the last 2 games against the Tigers the Sox look like the Jerry Manuel Sox with no emotion and just going through the motions!! :angry:

JB98
08-20-2004, 12:10 PM
This was supposed to be the time when we shifted into overdrive and took over the Central Division. Instead we keep losing to the Tigers, Royals, and Twins. What gives? Where has the "spark" gone that Ozzie was giving us earlier in the year? In watching the last 2 games against the Tigers the Sox look like the Jerry Manuel Sox with no emotion and just going through the motions!! :angry:
I think a lot of it has to do with the inability to hit left-handed pitching. Anderson, May, Maroth, Ledezma, these guys make our hitters look like fools. The switch-hitters we have (Alomar, Everett, Davis, Borchard) are all better as left-handed hitters, although there's no real proof that Borchard can hit from either side of the plate. Essentially, we only have four men out of 14 position players who aren't near-automatic outs against lefties (Lee, Rowand, Konerko, Uribe). Again, our struggles have a lot to do with the absence of Thomas and Ordonez and the inability/refusal of Crede to step up and help carry the load.

tlebar318
08-20-2004, 12:21 PM
I would say that Alomar/Everett Part 2 has been a bust so far--I wish Borchard would get it together but maybe we traded the wrong guy to Seattle? Jeremy Reed will probably be the star and Borchard the bust knowing how things seem to go for the Sox--God, I sound pessimistic--I will shut up now and continue to hope for the best the rest of the year. Wonder if any waiver wire deals are coming? I need a brewski! :gulp:

JB98
08-20-2004, 12:32 PM
I would say that Alomar/Everett Part 2 has been a bust so far--I wish Borchard would get it together but maybe we traded the wrong guy to Seattle? Jeremy Reed will probably be the star and Borchard the bust knowing how things seem to go for the Sox--God, I sound pessimistic--I will shut up now and continue to hope for the best the rest of the year. Wonder if any waiver wire deals are coming? I need a brewski! :gulp:
No, we didn't trade the wrong guy to Seattle. We have already have a young CF who is good defensively, hits .300 with decent pop and can steal a bag. That made Reed expendable. If anything, we should have kept Olivo and traded Crede, but I can't complain about that Garcia deal. I liked it at the time, and I like it now. This post will bring out all the Reed-lovers, but I don't care. This topic has been beaten to death already, but nothing will change my mind.

Borchard is a bust. We can't trade him because everyone besides KW knows Borchard blows. Each time he gets in the lineup, his trade value gets lower and lower. The day is coming where he will be released, but it probably won't be until next season after the Sox foolishly hand Borchard the everyday RF job for 2005. He'll fail and fail miserably.

Baby Fisk
08-20-2004, 12:35 PM
This was supposed to be the time when we shifted into overdrive and took over the Central Division. Instead we keep losing to the Tigers, Royals, and Twins. What gives? Where has the "spark" gone that Ozzie was giving us earlier in the year? In watching the last 2 games against the Tigers the Sox look like the Jerry Manuel Sox with no emotion and just going through the motions!! :angry:Hm...not a bad slogan to capture this season (and the previous one, and the previous one, etc etc...)


:sox WHITE SOX BASEBALL: :sox
WE CAN'T BEAT THE TEAMS WE SHOULD. :(:

JDP
08-20-2004, 12:36 PM
Borchard is a bust. We can't trade him because everyone besides KW knows Borchard blows. Each time he gets in the lineup, his trade value gets lower and lower.
At some point, Borchard should have to start paying the Sox for playing time.

Baby Fisk
08-20-2004, 12:37 PM
At some point, Borchard should have to start paying the Sox for playing time.
Ha ha! He's sure got one hell of a Sox Fantasy Experience deal going.

JDP
08-20-2004, 12:50 PM
Ha ha! He's sure got one hell of a Sox Fantasy Experience deal going.
If he's not going to contribute in the field or with the bat, the Sox should legally be able to go *something* for the money they gave him up front. Maybe a Joe Borchard, the hot-dog vendor, night. My money is on dugout cleanup crew. They need something to sweep up all that spit, tobacco and sunflower seed shells.

tlebar318
08-20-2004, 12:50 PM
Hm...not a bad slogan to capture this season (and the previous one, and the previous one, etc etc...)


:sox WHITE SOX BASEBALL: :sox
WE CAN'T BEAT THE TEAMS WE SHOULD. :(:

That is great!! Captures the feeling right now doesn't it? I live in Florida now and paid $160 to Dish Network for the MLB package to be tortured this year I guess...I still wonder if we could have kept Reed and shipped Borchard instead in the Garcia Deal... 2005 lineup would include Rowand in Center, Reed moves to Left, Lee to First Base and we resign Mags--Ok I am dreaming--wake me up now! :smile:

Foulke29
08-20-2004, 12:52 PM
Uhm .....

Thomas & Magglio Hurt + Yankees being swept = Twins AL Central Division leaders...

In short, we can't beat the teams we should because we have no one to fear in our lineup.

Jjav829
08-20-2004, 12:56 PM
Hm...not a bad slogan to capture this season (and the previous one, and the previous one, etc etc...)


:sox WHITE SOX BASEBALL: :sox
WE CAN'T BEAT THE TEAMS WE SHOULD. :(:

I still think the slogan in my signature (taken from Hawk) should be our slogan for next year. It works for this year too.

balke
08-20-2004, 12:59 PM
I think we can't beat the teams we should, because we normally win with hitting, and as stated before, the Left handhanded pitching scenario. The games that are pitched well, we seem to win. Sox have found a pretty decent scoring rhythm w/o Maggs and frank, but still have to win games 9-2 8-7 5-4 9-3... and lose games 11-8 13-11 8-4. I can't believe how excited I got in that boston series, watching a 4-4 game.. like it was the best pitched game all season. I wish We could see a few 2-1 wins, or 3-0... We've given up 2 runs or more every game this month.

balke
08-20-2004, 01:03 PM
That is great!! Captures the feeling right now doesn't it? I live in Florida now and paid $160 to Dish Network for the MLB package to be tortured this year I guess...I still wonder if we could have kept Reed and shipped Borchard instead in the Garcia Deal... 2005 lineup would include Rowand in Center, Reed moves to Left, Lee to First Base and we resign Mags--Ok I am dreaming--wake me up now! :smile:That would mean that Reed would be playing for the White Sox, and in turn would morph into a complete flop coming out of the minors, even though statistiacally great. (i.e. Borchard, Diaz, Rauch, & Munoz)

SSN721
08-20-2004, 01:05 PM
I would say that Alomar/Everett Part 2 has been a bust so far--I wish Borchard would get it together but maybe we traded the wrong guy to Seattle? Jeremy Reed will probably be the star and Borchard the bust knowing how things seem to go for the Sox--God, I sound pessimistic--I will shut up now and continue to hope for the best the rest of the year. Wonder if any waiver wire deals are coming? I need a brewski! :gulp:

I still havent seen any concrete evidence that the choice was given to take Borchard instead of Reed. Judging by both players minor league numbers I dont see how they both appeared equla to Seattle. I dont think they wanted Borchard. I think it was either Reed and Olivo or maybe Crede and Olivo. I dont think the offer was ever just Borchard and Olivo, I would think Seattle would have wanted more than that.

balke
08-20-2004, 01:10 PM
During the trade, I remember Gammons saying Seattle wanted Lee and Crede, because KW said Borchard was "untouchable". KW quickly shot down any possibility of Seattle acquiring Lee, and they worked thier way to the deal they have now, which was a pretty good freakin deal that should stop being questioned. We have 3 pitchers worth a darn for the next 2 years, instead of 2... we're still dreaming of the playoffs, rejoice!

tlebar318
08-20-2004, 01:16 PM
I still think the Seattle trade was a good one and if Ben Davis keeps doing well I like it even more--I just wish it could have been Crede or Borchard in that deal instead of Reed if Seattle would have taken that--I just think giving up Reed is going to come back to bite us in the butt!

Baby Fisk
08-20-2004, 01:23 PM
That is great!! Captures the feeling right now doesn't it? I live in Florida now and paid $160 to Dish Network for the MLB package to be tortured this year I guess...I still wonder if we could have kept Reed and shipped Borchard instead in the Garcia Deal... 2005 lineup would include Rowand in Center, Reed moves to Left, Lee to First Base and we resign Mags--Ok I am dreaming--wake me up now! :smile:Yep, I signed up for the cable package too this year. It's been great until about the last agonizing month. After the Tigers lit it up for a 7-0 lead last night, it was time for some dvds instead. :(:

Fungo
08-20-2004, 01:26 PM
I still havent seen any concrete evidence that the choice was given to take Borchard instead of Reed. Judging by both players minor league numbers I dont see how they both appeared equla to Seattle. I dont think they wanted Borchard. I think it was either Reed and Olivo or maybe Crede and Olivo. I dont think the offer was ever just Borchard and Olivo, I would think Seattle would have wanted more than that.According to Kenny Williams, Reed projected more as a corner outfielder, but didn't have the power numbers typical of a corner OF. They liked Borchard because of his power potential, which doesn't make much sense to me considering there seems to be a movement towards a team that doesn't rely on the 3 run homer to score runs.

soxtalker
08-20-2004, 01:28 PM
Some of you have addressed the specifics -- susceptibility to LHP, etc. I'd personally go with the loss of Maggs and Frank really being an awfully big hurdle to overcome. But even with them, I doubt we'd be running away with things.

From an overall perspective, maybe the point to be made is that we aren't beating these teams because we just aren't that good. We're 2 games over .500 now, and I won't be at all surprised to see us under .500 before August ends. The Tribe and Twins are better. The Tigers are rapidly improving. And that's just our division. We're essentially out of the wild card race. There's a lot of discussion about lack of "heart", but give some credit to other teams. I just think that we've just got a lot of holes that need to be addressed.

tlebar318
08-20-2004, 01:29 PM
I feel your pain!! Really I do--I had that same feeling last night right about the time they took Garland out of the game....I guess mathematically we are still alive--Let's look back at this in October and laugh ok? By then we will wonder what we were worried about right now--:D:

I forget what color text indicates sarcasm......

Iwritecode
08-20-2004, 01:29 PM
Maybe because Garland gave up 7 runs in the first 3 innings?

Baby Fisk
08-20-2004, 01:33 PM
I feel your pain!! Really I do--I had that same feeling last night right about the time they took Garland out of the game....I guess mathematically we are still alive--Let's look back at this in October and laugh ok? By then we will wonder what we were worried about right now--:D:

I forget what color text indicates sarcasm......Sarcasm, eg. "I really love Jon Garland's no-nonsense approach towards the fans." is TEAL.

Pipe Dreams, eg. "White Sox 2004 World Champions" are DEEP PINK.

I think someone suggested that Nightmares, eg. "Chicago Cubs 2004 World Champions" should be in BLUE. Man, it was horrible just typing those words out...:angry:

mike squires
08-20-2004, 03:26 PM
In watching the last 2 games against the Tigers the Sox look like the Jerry Manuel Sox with no emotion and just going through the motions!! :angry:
Uh, no, that would be Harold Baines.:)

mike squires
08-20-2004, 03:28 PM
Of all the dugout shots this year...I've never once seen Harold talking. Now I'm one of Harold biggest fans. But, shouldn't the bench coach actually supposed to talk?

Baby Fisk
08-20-2004, 03:46 PM
Of all the dugout shots this year...I've never once seen Harold talking. Now I'm one of Harold biggest fans. But, shouldn't the bench coach actually supposed to talk?
One role of the bench coach is to observe what's going on on the field to spot things no one else notices.

:harold
"Shhhhh.... I'm observing..."

gosox41
08-20-2004, 04:32 PM
This was supposed to be the time when we shifted into overdrive and took over the Central Division. Instead we keep losing to the Tigers, Royals, and Twins. What gives? Where has the "spark" gone that Ozzie was giving us earlier in the year? In watching the last 2 games against the Tigers the Sox look like the Jerry Manuel Sox with no emotion and just going through the motions!! :angry:
Someone (I forget who but I don't want to take credit for it) came up with the proper Sox slogan which pretty much sums this up:

White Sox Baseball: Superior Mediocrity.



Bob

Lip Man 1
08-20-2004, 08:45 PM
I think it's psychological. Remember this team has basically been the same since 2001. They've been down this road before. When they see it happening again they think to themselves, 'here we go again...'

And one objectively has to ask the question, who says in reality the Sox ARE better then the Twins etc...(i.e. the teams they are 'supposed' to beat)

Maybe you are to close to the situation and think the players are better then they are.

White Sox Baseball:
Superior mediocrity (Since The White Flag Trade)

Lip

kitekrazy
08-20-2004, 09:47 PM
I think it's psychological. Remember this team has basically been the same since 2001. They've been down this road before. When they see it happening again they think to themselves, 'here we go again...'

Lip
Yep, I think it's time to remove most of them. Maggs will be gone because he is too expensive. Then we will get those cheapo players that couldn't play on bad teams. They'll give us a quarter of a season of decent play. It's like polishing a turd and calling it a Mercedes.

batmanZoSo
08-20-2004, 09:49 PM
We shouldn't beat the Tigers because without Frank and Maggs, we're no better than they are. Take those two out for the whole year and I guarantee we're looking up at the Tigers.

Lip Man 1
08-20-2004, 10:25 PM
Batman:

Has Thomas and Maggs been hurt since 2001? The problem runs deeper then those two. It runs through the entire club and has been since 2001.

Lip

Tragg
08-20-2004, 11:30 PM
During the trade, I remember Gammons saying Seattle wanted Lee and Crede, because KW said Borchard was "untouchable". KW quickly shot down any possibility of Seattle acquiring Lee, and they worked thier way to the deal they have now, which was a pretty good freakin deal that should stop being questioned. We have 3 pitchers worth a darn for the next 2 years, instead of 2... we're still dreaming of the playoffs, rejoice!I wish they'd pitch like it- it would help if we would get a lot of lockdown outings out of MB and FG after losing the two big hitters.

They'll need to next year, if we are to have a chance, because we are likely to lose a good bit of power.

StillMissOzzie
08-21-2004, 12:55 AM
Uhm .....

Thomas & Magglio Hurt + Yankees being swept = Twins AL Central Division leaders...

Nice equation, except that the Twinkies took 2 out of 3 from the Yanks, not a sweep. Sure looking like the result will still be the same, though...

SMO
:(: