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chisoxt
08-19-2004, 08:55 PM
Remember in the off-season how many of us hoped that KW would do something to improve this team? We lost Colon, Alomar, Everett, Sullivan and Grafananio? I recall the waling and gnashing of teeth on this board because the Cubs were grabbing all of the headllines by improving their team while our management in frustration, threw their arms up in the air because we were at our pay roll limit, and instead sttod on the side lines. So instead of adding legitimate talent which could have helped this team, we instead added slugs like Uribe, Politte, Ross Gload and Mike jackson. While Danny Wright and Scott Schoenweiss did absolutley nothing to merit even an invitation to spring training, but we pegged them as our fourth and fifth starters out of spring training. Similiarly, Willie Harris was a dud as a part time player and not surprisingly, he is struggling as a starter. Since we were limited with options at short, we overpaid for Jose Valentin to return for another season.

I think that even if Maggs and Frank were healthy, something tells me that we would have come up short in the end again.

If there is a silver lining in this dark cloud, it is that maybe, just maybe, this lousy finish to the season will be a wake up call to our dillusional GM. This team does not have it. With each passing season, we keep this false hope alive by trading away decent prospects for over-the-hill retreads like Alomar and Everett, not once but twice! The longer we put off rebuilding this team, the longer it will be before we contend again.

Cubbiesuck13
08-19-2004, 08:57 PM
who are the prospects you are talking about?

Flight #24
08-19-2004, 09:01 PM
who are the prospects you are talking about?
You know - all those guys tearing up the majors like Royce Ring, Matt Ginter, Matt Guerrier, Anthony Webster.....if only we had them, we'd be running away with it.

Forget entirely that Everett & Alomar are still here & Garcia's replaced Colon. Graffanino & Sullivan were the keys!

PaulDrake
08-19-2004, 09:07 PM
Maybe the prospects part of the argument isn't as strong as it might be but other than that chisoxt makes a strong case. We've gone too long with this "core." The first half of 2000 was fools gold and we haven't come to grips with it yet. The Twins have a very productive farm system and the Tigers and Indians are making solid progress. I don't envy KW one bit. The next few years may well be very lean.

Cubbiesuck13
08-19-2004, 09:10 PM
Maybe the prospects part of the argument isn't as strong as it might be but other than that chisoxt makes a strong case. We've gone too long with this "core." The first half of 2000 was fools gold and we haven't come to grips with it yet. The Twins have a very productive farm system and the Tigers and Indians are making solid progress. I don't envy KW one bit. The next few years may well be very lean.
We may not have the best farm system anymore but I would hardly call it 'lean'. Plus, it looks like he has given up the right guys so far. Check out the threads about our farm teams and you will no doubt, learn a lot.

Flight #24
08-19-2004, 09:21 PM
Maybe the prospects part of the argument isn't as strong as it might be but other than that chisoxt makes a strong case. We've gone too long with this "core." The first half of 2000 was fools gold and we haven't come to grips with it yet.
:whatever:

Yeah, because the team as constructed that was looking pretty dominant the first half was bound to fall apart. These guys just suck.

Lip Man 1
08-19-2004, 10:04 PM
Flight:

Granted the loss of Maggs and Frank made it impossible for this team to win the division HOWEVER what's the excuse for the fact that this club MAY NOT even finish the year with a winning recod?

Isn't the talent of guys like Konerko, Lee, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Rowand and Takatsu enough to win 82 games?

I find it hard to believe that even with the loss of two great players the rest of the team could go down the toilet that quickly...unless of course they were overrated to start with.

Lip

Medford Bobby
08-19-2004, 10:11 PM
:whiner: Gosh, maybe even more over rated than the Cups! :o:

Flight #24
08-19-2004, 10:14 PM
Flight:

Granted the loss of Maggs and Frank made it impossible for this team to win the division HOWEVER what's the excuse for the fact that this club MAY NOT even finish the year with a winning recod?

Isn't the talent of guys like Konerko, Lee, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Rowand and Takatsu enough to win 82 games?

I find it hard to believe that even with the loss of two great players the rest of the team could go down the toilet that quickly...unless of course they were overrated to start with.

Lip
Really? I don't. Take away the top 2 players on most teams and you'll see a mediocre team at best. Do that to a non-large revenue team and the impact is that much greater. It's not just that the Sox lose Frank & Maggs, it's that they were paying them a combined $20mil, which impact what you can pay the rest of the guys. As I've posted before, the Sox were a team built to be potential dominators if healthy, or just a pretty good team if they had one major guy go down. However, in the unlikely event that you lose both, you're left with subpar guys trying to take on major roles. The alternative is to provide less "top-heaviness", but better depth. In that scenario, you can withstand injury better, but your team maxes out a lot lower if healthy. The guys you mention all have good talent, but the bottom of the roster either doesn't have the talent or isn't ready to be regulars in the bigs. That makes a big difference.

BoSox without Manny & Ortiz. Texas without Soriano & Young. St Louis without Pujols & Rolen. All struggle mightily IMO. The Sox currently have a team that's good enough to compete most nights. They have 13 losses by 1 or 2 runs in the 2d half. Add Frank and/or Maggs instead of Gload/Perez and you win at least 5-6 of those, which coincidentally puts you even with the Twins. Add both & you're ahead.

Cubbiesuck13
08-20-2004, 06:40 AM
Flight:

Granted the loss of Maggs and Frank made it impossible for this team to win the division HOWEVER what's the excuse for the fact that this club MAY NOT even finish the year with a winning recod?

Isn't the talent of guys like Konerko, Lee, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Rowand and Takatsu enough to win 82 games?

I find it hard to believe that even with the loss of two great players the rest of the team could go down the toilet that quickly...unless of course they were overrated to start with.

Lip

The only ones who excpected anything are the sox fans. Everyone else said third. How is that overated to begin with? After we started winning and suprising the national media? I call that overachieving. So far, we are on par to finish just like everyone said. I am by no means happy about that either.

Tragg
08-20-2004, 07:44 AM
Really? I don't. Take away the top 2 players on most teams and you'll see a mediocre team at best. Do that to a non-large revenue team and the impact is that much greater. It's not just that the Sox lose Frank & Maggs, it's that they were paying them a combined $20mil, which impact what you can pay the rest of the guys. As I've posted before, the Sox were a team built to be potential dominators if healthy, or just a pretty good team if they had one major guy go down. However, in the unlikely event that you lose both, you're left with subpar guys trying to take on major roles. The alternative is to provide less "top-heaviness", but better depth. In that scenario, you can withstand injury better, but your team maxes out a lot lower if healthy. The guys you mention all have good talent, but the bottom of the roster either doesn't have the talent or isn't ready to be regulars in the bigs. That makes a big difference.
Of course, last year we had both Thomas and Ordonez and did nothing. The team was basically the same, with the exception of Colon last year and perhaps Uribe and Tak this year---like I said, basically the same. Few prognosticators picked us to make the post season this year. With a career year out of Rowand, perhaps we would have.
I think Williams is far from the worst GM in this league, and a big improvement over his predecessor. Nevertheless, big problems with this team still haven't been addressed- we're weak up the middle- we were weak when he took over, and his little stop-gaps haven't made us stronger. Still nothing close to a lead-off hitter.
Our bullpen is worse than when he took over - much worse- and factoring Foulke, whom he couldn't sign, out of the equation, it's still worse. (whether he should be factored out is debatable, considering the braintrust had demoted Foulke out of the closer's role in mid-2002 for losing a couple of saves on concrete balls in the twinkiedome)
Starters are better BUT does he deserve the credit for any but signing E Lo and trading for Garcia (further weakening us up the middle in the process). MB just happened to mature into a major league pitcher when Williams took over; Sirotka was a solid major league starter when he arrived. Say what you want about Wells and Fogg not being superstars, which they aren't, but Wells is certainly as good as Garland and Fogg is a damn sight better than whomever we've been wheeling out as a number 5 starter- both would be on this staff.
And while we signed Garcia for what I think is a lot of money, we're going to have to pay MB at least the same, considering he's been about as productive (actually slightly better).

We really aren't much better than when he took over- aren't much worse either.

I think we have to let Maggs go....but that plus perhaps an increase in payroll budget, gives Kenny an opportunity to retool (not rebuild) this team...around $15-$20 million of opportunity.

Kenny's job would be easier if our farm system would produce a player to help out one of the weak spots; it hasn't been doing a lot of producing, unfortunately.



Big challenge ahead- but I view it as opportunity

duke of dorwood
08-20-2004, 07:56 AM
I have periodically reminded folks of the past off season slumber by KW and this team-it came home to roost.

5-21 vs this division in recent games? DISGRACEFUL

fquaye149
08-20-2004, 08:11 AM
Of course, last year we had both Thomas and Ordonez and did nothing. The team was basically the same, with the exception of Colon last year and perhaps Uribe and Tak this year---like I said, basically the same. Few prognosticators picked us to make the post season this year. With a career year out of Rowand, perhaps we would have.
I think Williams is far from the worst GM in this league, and a big improvement over his predecessor. Nevertheless, big problems with this team still haven't been addressed- we're weak up the middle- we were weak when he took over, and his little stop-gaps haven't made us stronger. Still nothing close to a lead-off hitter.
Our bullpen is worse than when he took over - much worse- and factoring Foulke, whom he couldn't sign, out of the equation, it's still worse. (whether he should be factored out is debatable, considering the braintrust had demoted Foulke out of the closer's role in mid-2002 for losing a couple of saves on concrete balls in the twinkiedome)
Starters are better BUT does he deserve the credit for any but signing E Lo and trading for Garcia (further weakening us up the middle in the process). MB just happened to mature into a major league pitcher when Williams took over; Sirotka was a solid major league starter when he arrived. Say what you want about Wells and Fogg not being superstars, which they aren't, but Wells is certainly as good as Garland and Fogg is a damn sight better than whomever we've been wheeling out as a number 5 starter- both would be on this staff.
And while we signed Garcia for what I think is a lot of money, we're going to have to pay MB at least the same, considering he's been about as productive (actually slightly better).

We really aren't much better than when he took over- aren't much worse either.

I think we have to let Maggs go....but that plus perhaps an increase in payroll budget, gives Kenny an opportunity to retool (not rebuild) this team...around $15-$20 million of opportunity.

Kenny's job would be easier if our farm system would produce a player to help out one of the weak spots; it hasn't been doing a lot of producing, unfortunately.



Big challenge ahead- but I view it as opportunity
colon's performance last year vs. freddy's this year

koch's performance last year vs. shingo's this year

i think is enough to make a significant difference

ChiSoxBobette
08-20-2004, 08:19 AM
Remember in the off-season how many of us hoped that KW would do something to improve this team? We lost Colon, Alomar, Everett, Sullivan and Grafananio? I recall the waling and gnashing of teeth on this board because the Cubs were grabbing all of the headllines by improving their team while our management in frustration, threw their arms up in the air because we were at our pay roll limit, and instead sttod on the side lines. So instead of adding legitimate talent which could have helped this team, we instead added slugs like Uribe, Politte, Ross Gload and Mike jackson. While Danny Wright and Scott Schoenweiss did absolutley nothing to merit even an invitation to spring training, but we pegged them as our fourth and fifth starters out of spring training. Similiarly, Willie Harris was a dud as a part time player and not surprisingly, he is struggling as a starter. Since we were limited with options at short, we overpaid for Jose Valentin to return for another season.

I think that even if Maggs and Frank were healthy, something tells me that we would have come up short in the end again.

If there is a silver lining in this dark cloud, it is that maybe, just maybe, this lousy finish to the season will be a wake up call to our dillusional GM. This team does not have it. With each passing season, we keep this false hope alive by trading away decent prospects for over-the-hill retreads like Alomar and Everett, not once but twice! The longer we put off rebuilding this team, the longer it will be before we contend again.
We traded away one , 1, prospect to the Mariners and we've been doing it for years , well were are these prospects because I'm not seeing them playing on any major league teams. As far as the guy we gave up for Garcia well you have to give up something to get something. The guy I hated to see go in that Mariners deal was Olivo as far as that minor league guy who knows whats going to happen with him.

wdelaney72
08-20-2004, 08:40 AM
I said this last year, I said it again before this season, this team with Maggs and Frank was good enough to win the AL Central, but that's it. If Maggs and Frank were healthy and we made the playoffs, we would be swept just like in 2000.

SP is decent, but nowhere near dominating. Our defense absolutely sucks. Our abiliity to manufacture runs is spotty at best, which is crucial for the playoffs.

Bullpen is slightly better than last year, but still far from good.

The last off-season was a disppointment, but there weren't a ton of free agents to get excited about. I think there is more available this off-season. If KW is not very busy this offseason, I'll be greatly disappointed. The current "core" is not working. We've seen it over and over.

thepaulbowski
08-20-2004, 08:41 AM
I find it hard to believe that even with the loss of two great players the rest of the team could go down the toilet that quickly...unless of course they were overrated to start with.

Lip

And how is a team to replace two players who'd combine for over 200 RBI's, 75 HR's, the OBP they (at least Frank) would put up. Frank is still among the leaders in BB's and he hasn't played in weeks. It is not possible, I'm not even sure the Yankees could pull off deals to do this.

Flight #24
08-20-2004, 09:31 AM
Of course, last year we had both Thomas and Ordonez and did nothing. The team was basically the same, with the exception of Colon last year and perhaps Uribe and Tak this year---like I said, basically the same.

Changes from 03-04:

2004 ARow v. 2003 ARow/Everett: Huge upgrade
2004 Crede v. 2003 Crede: downgrade
2004 Konerko v. 2003 Konerko: huge upgrade
2004 Olivo/Davis/Burke/Alomar v. 2003 Olivo/Alomar: slight upgrade with Davis (so far)
Valentin, 2B, CLee - Flat from 2003 to 2004
SP: Flat (Garcia/Contreras v. Colon/03-ELo)
RP: Lose Gordon, Sullivan, Glover, White, Koch. Gain Takatsu, Cotts, Jackson, Politte - net flat because White, Glover, Koch sucked.

Factor in Ozzie v. Manuel and this team was significantly improved over last year's. There's no reason to think that they would have flopped with the addition of Frank & Maggs. In fact, there's an even better argument to be made that with those 2 in the lineup, Willie Harris & Juan Uribe hit better becuase they bat ahead of the 2, and Valentin hits better becuase he bats with more men on base (his avg jumps significantly with men on compared to bass empty).

Lip Man 1
08-20-2004, 10:08 AM
Paulowski:

Then what you are saying is that this is a two man team? That they can't even finish with 82 wins without them?

And if what you say is true yet there were fans who actually thought this team was World Series material?

Lip

infohawk
08-20-2004, 10:20 AM
Maybe the prospects part of the argument isn't as strong as it might be but other than that chisoxt makes a strong case. We've gone too long with this "core." The first half of 2000 was fools gold and we haven't come to grips with it yet. The Twins have a very productive farm system and the Tigers and Indians are making solid progress. I don't envy KW one bit. The next few years may well be very lean.
I think KW realizes that the team must undergo a metamorphosis. His sentiments were evidenced in that Daily Herald article published a week or two ago. This team will be transformed from being reliant on offense and 3-run homers to a pitching and fundamental baseball group. The changes are already underway.

The rotation has been dramatically improved. Going into 2004 we had Buerhle as the anchor and hopes that Loaiza had truly turned a corner. In other words, one known commodity and one unknown commodity. The Sox then hoped they could catch lightning in a bottle with Schoenweiss and hoped Garland would live up to his promise. The team hoped someone could then step into the number five spot and be serviceable at best. None of the hoping panned out. If my recollection is correct, Loaiza's record over the first couple of months was masked by good run support. Schoenweiss was surprisingly effective for two months before the wheels came off. Garland has given the Sox the inconsistent performances we have come to expect. The lack of performance from the fifth starters spot is well-chronicled on this website.

Now, we have Buerhle, Garcia and Contreras fronting the rotation. KW will undoubtedly acquire another quality starter, perhaps even two, during the offseason. If he acquires even just one quality starter on the free-agent market, the Sox would have the deepest starting rotation since 1993-94. I'm sure there will also be some position player changes as well, but I really think the key for the Sox is deep pitching. A deep pitching staff should do much to solve the up and down streakiness exhibited by the Sox over the past few years. Even without Maggs and Frank, the Sox score enough runs to win games (although I believe Frank will be back to help). They just can't count on consistent performances from the #4 and #5 spot. This puts even more pressure on needing wins from the top three pitchers. If both the #4 and #5 pitchers lose during a run through the rotation and just one of the top three loses, the team just lost 3 out of 5 games. Not good.

fquaye149
08-20-2004, 10:41 AM
Paulowski:

Then what you are saying is that this is a two man team? That they can't even finish with 82 wins without them?

And if what you say is true yet there were fans who actually thought this team was World Series material?

Lip
Would the 2003 Marlins have won 82 games w/o pudge and pierre?

Would the 2002 Angels have won 82 games w/o anderson and glaus?

Would the 2001 Dbacks have won 82 games w/o schilling and Johnson?

Maybe, but probably not. The 2004 Whitesox probably will win 82 games. . .but the fact that two of the best players are missing over half the season IS a legitimate excuse for a mid-market salary team to go .500

hold2dibber
08-20-2004, 10:56 AM
Just a few thoughts that occured to me while browsing this thread:

(1) Anyone who poo-poo's losing Frank and Maggs for the entire 2nd half of the season is completely off their rocker. I'm not saying this team would have won with those guys, but the team would be a hell of a lot better. We're talking about 2 of the best hitters in the AL, both of whom garnered MVP votes last year and both of whom make everyone in the line-up around them better. Right now the Sox are 5 games out of first. With Maggs and Frank healthy all year, I think they'd be at least 2-3 games better, and right in the thick of things.


(2) Regardless of the above, the character of this team has to be changed. If I'm KW, I try like hell to re-sign Maggs to a one year, $10 million (or so) deal, so he can prove his health. If he's game, I then trade Konerko to the Orioles for BJ Ryan, Hairston and a prospect and see if I can trade C. Lee and Uribe to the Braves for Furcal. Then I sign Pavano and Mankvietovichz. The team, going into '05 is:

Line-up:

Furcal SS
Hairston 2B
Maggs RF
Frank DH
Everett LF
Rowand CF
Mancovikziecz 1B
Crede 3B
Davis C

Rotation:

Garcia
Buehrle
Pavano
Contreras
Garland

Pen:

Shingo
Ryan
Politte
Diaz
Marte
Cotts
Adkins

I like that team a lot - the lineup is much more diverse, speedy and left/right balanced. The infield defense is stellar. The rotation is the best in the division. The pen probably needs at least one more stud. I might consider trading Garland for another live bullpen arm (e.g., Mota? Scott Sheilds?) and then letting Cotts, Diaz, Stewart and a journey man veteran battle it out for the no. 5 spot in the rotation.

Randar68
08-20-2004, 11:35 AM
Really? I don't. Take away the top 2 players on most teams and you'll see a mediocre team at best. Do that to a non-large revenue team and the impact is that much greater. It's not just that the Sox lose Frank & Maggs, it's that they were paying them a combined $20mil, which impact what you can pay the rest of the guys. As I've posted before, the Sox were a team built to be potential dominators if healthy, or just a pretty good team if they had one major guy go down. However, in the unlikely event that you lose both, you're left with subpar guys trying to take on major roles. The alternative is to provide less "top-heaviness", but better depth. In that scenario, you can withstand injury better, but your team maxes out a lot lower if healthy. The guys you mention all have good talent, but the bottom of the roster either doesn't have the talent or isn't ready to be regulars in the bigs. That makes a big difference.

BoSox without Manny & Ortiz. Texas without Soriano & Young. St Louis without Pujols & Rolen. All struggle mightily IMO. The Sox currently have a team that's good enough to compete most nights. They have 13 losses by 1 or 2 runs in the 2d half. Add Frank and/or Maggs instead of Gload/Perez and you win at least 5-6 of those, which coincidentally puts you even with the Twins. Add both & you're ahead.
Agreed. Also, think of it in another way. Losing Frank+Maggs was not only losing your 2 clear-cut best hitters and guys who also get on base better than anyone else on the team, but it was also 1/3rd of the opening day payroll.

In terms of players, you only lost 2 out of 25, but in terms of the investment the club made, they lost 1/3rd of their investment. That's a great, great, likely insurmountable loss in the short-run.

balke
08-20-2004, 03:51 PM
I think the main area Losing MAggs and frank hurt us is in the trade department. IF we had all those sluggers on our team, and no production out of the pen, I think Kenny would have plenty of room to make a trade for some quality relief, and heck.... even a 5th starter. Right now, every position is tapped. I personally didn't think Graffanino was that great of a player, and not a big loss, and am happier with uribe-valentin. I think us not having Robbie all year hurt, but what can you do?

Go Kenny, you're doing fine. Loaiza for Contreres and cash? HA!

Flight #24
08-20-2004, 03:54 PM
I think the main area Losing MAggs and frank hurt us is in the trade department. IF we had all those sluggers on our team, and no production out of the pen, I think Kenny would have plenty of room to make a trade for some quality relief, and heck.... even a 5th starter. Right now, every position is tapped. I personally didn't think Graffanino was that great of a player, and not a big loss, and am happier with uribe-valentin. I think us not having Robbie all year hurt, but what can you do?

Go Kenny, you're doing fine. Loaiza for Contreres and cash? HA!
That's a very good point. Remember - with Frank and Maggs, this team might have had some holes still, but instead of trading for Everett, you probably go get some bullpen help or maybe even a veteran 5th starter. Instead, you had to fill holes and still face a significant dropoff (because you just can't replace a Frank/Maggs).

OEO Magglio
08-20-2004, 04:06 PM
May I?

:threadsucks

nitetrain8601
08-20-2004, 04:38 PM
Just a few thoughts that occured to me while browsing this thread:

(1) Anyone who poo-poo's losing Frank and Maggs for the entire 2nd half of the season is completely off their rocker. I'm not saying this team would have won with those guys, but the team would be a hell of a lot better. We're talking about 2 of the best hitters in the AL, both of whom garnered MVP votes last year and both of whom make everyone in the line-up around them better. Right now the Sox are 5 games out of first. With Maggs and Frank healthy all year, I think they'd be at least 2-3 games better, and right in the thick of things.


(2) Regardless of the above, the character of this team has to be changed. If I'm KW, I try like hell to re-sign Maggs to a one year, $10 million (or so) deal, so he can prove his health. If he's game, I then trade Konerko to the Orioles for BJ Ryan, Hairston and a prospect and see if I can trade C. Lee and Uribe to the Braves for Furcal. Then I sign Pavano and Mankvietovichz. The team, going into '05 is:

Line-up:

Furcal SS
Hairston 2B
Maggs RF
Frank DH
Everett LF
Rowand CF
Mancovikziecz 1B
Crede 3B
Davis C

Rotation:

Garcia
Buehrle
Pavano
Contreras
Garland

Pen:

Shingo
Ryan
Politte
Diaz
Marte
Cotts
Adkins

I like that team a lot - the lineup is much more diverse, speedy and left/right balanced. The infield defense is stellar. The rotation is the best in the division. The pen probably needs at least one more stud. I might consider trading Garland for another live bullpen arm (e.g., Mota? Scott Sheilds?) and then letting Cotts, Diaz, Stewart and a journey man veteran battle it out for the no. 5 spot in the rotation.
Do you mean Doug Mientkiewicz? Also I don't know if he's a FA, and if you trade Garland, then that's just making a lateral move because you still need a 5th starter.

balke
08-20-2004, 05:40 PM
If we're dealing with the O's, maybe we can sneak out Gibbons for cheap too, and teach the guy how to hit. He made some great defensive plays diving at the wall down the third base line in the O's series I saw earlier this season. I've seen him do that on sportscenter occasionally as well. He's got a great arm too. But his numbers for hitting are horrendous.

spanishwhite
08-20-2004, 05:48 PM
Would the 2003 Marlins have won 82 games w/o pudge and pierre?

Would the 2002 Angels have won 82 games w/o anderson and glaus?

Would the 2001 Dbacks have won 82 games w/o schilling and Johnson?

Maybe, but probably not. The 2004 Whitesox probably will win 82 games. . .but the fact that two of the best players are missing over half the season IS a legitimate excuse for a mid-market salary team to go .500
Why is winning 82 games getting brought up so much? This team will win 82 games. That just wont be enough to take the division.

spanishwhite
08-20-2004, 05:59 PM
see if I can trade C. Lee and Uribe to the Braves for Furcal.
wow, maybe Lee and Uribe for Ortiz and Furcal. Otherwise Furcal and Uribe are about the same with Furcal being slightly better at offense and defense, oh except Furcal is making 3 million more than him.

Now that I look at it: Uribe .776 OPS in 375 abs Furcal .791 OPS in 400 abs

Just my 2 cents

Lip Man 1
08-20-2004, 08:36 PM
Spanish:

I wouldn't bet the farm on it...

Infohawk:

Remember 'hope' is what the Sox sell best. It costs a lot less then 'talent.'

Lip

Tragg
08-20-2004, 11:17 PM
colon's performance last year vs. freddy's this year

koch's performance last year vs. shingo's this year

i think is enough to make a significant difference
???
Colon pitched all year with a 3.87 era; Garcia has graced us for 2 months, fresh with a 9 mill contract (which I think is overpaying him) with a 4.87 ERA

Koch was horrible, but was demoted fairly quickly in favor of Gordon and Marte- Gordon't performance last year was on par with Shingo's