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Jjav829
08-16-2004, 04:27 PM
I got to thinking about this yesterday. Who would you consider to be the most complete player in baseball? We're not talking about just any one aspect. I guess you could say the best 5 tool player, but I'm talking about the player who puts everything together the best.

I would have to say its Scott Rolen. He brings everything. While his not your typical power guy, he stills gives you 25+ HRs a year. He's a terrific all around hitter. His defense is amazing at 3rd and while he's not a speed threat, he's a great base runner. Add in the intangibles and to me, he's one of the most complete players around.

Thoughts?

habibharu
08-16-2004, 04:30 PM
pujols, no question about it

Tekijawa
08-16-2004, 04:34 PM
Patterson or Olivo no question about it!

I'd probably go with Arod at Short Stop... Rolen would be up there, Puljos isn't a great fielder, I'd also include Ichiro, but he has no power.

habibharu
08-16-2004, 04:39 PM
Patterson or Olivo no question about it!

I'd probably go with Arod at Short Stop... Rolen would be up there, Puljos isn't a great fielder, I'd also include Ichiro, but he has no power. doesnt pujols have a gold glove?

bafiarocks03
08-16-2004, 04:45 PM
What about Magglio!!.....but ya Scott Rolen is awesome..same with Albert Pujols!!

samram
08-16-2004, 04:51 PM
doesnt pujols have a gold glove?
No, but he is a gold glove caliber player at first, which he probably wasn't at third or in the OF. I would say A-Rod has been the best all-around player for the last two or three years, but I think Abreu has been the best this year. He hits for power and average (.294 with 26 HRs and 82 RBI), has 28 SBs and plays well defensively (10 assists). Not to mention his OPS is .972. Pretty good.

kittle42
08-16-2004, 04:55 PM
Obviously, anyone on the Cubs' 25-man roster. They are all tied.

mantis1212
08-16-2004, 04:55 PM
Gotta drop Beltran's name in this thread...

thepaulbowski
08-16-2004, 04:56 PM
Gotta drop Beltran's name in this thread...
Not with this years stats....

Aidan
08-16-2004, 05:00 PM
If Beltran could hit for a little bit higher average he would be the "most complete player". He can hit for power, field the toughest position in baseball very well, and steal bases. Right now, I guess I would have to say A-Rod, even though he's an overpaid piece of garbage.

thepaulbowski
08-16-2004, 05:02 PM
If Beltran could hit for a little bit higher average he would be the "most complete player". He can hit for power, field the toughest position in baseball very well, and steal bases. Right now, I guess I would have to say A-Rod, even though he's an overpaid piece of garbage.
CF is not the "toughest position" in baseball. SS or 3B are a lot more difficult to field than CF.

MRKARNO
08-16-2004, 05:04 PM
Alex Rodriguez when he was a shortstop. I think he's not a good third baseman devensively. I've seen a lot of balls get by him that most decent defensive third basemen would normally have.

Abreu plays a much easier defensive position, although at a pretty high level. A-rod is a slightly superior offensive performer. A healthy JD Drew is also a very complete player.

Overall I still think I'd take A-rod, but he was an even more complete player when he was at short.

mantis1212
08-16-2004, 05:07 PM
Not with this years stats....
You know, I didn't even look at his Houston average, .237? wow, he did fall off...

jackbrohamer
08-16-2004, 05:09 PM
When he's healthy, Ken Griffey, Jr. Oh yeah that's right.....

samram
08-16-2004, 05:11 PM
I also think Pudge Rodriguez should be mentioned.

samram
08-16-2004, 05:13 PM
Patterson or Olivo no question about it!

I'd probably go with Arod at Short Stop... Rolen would be up there, Puljos isn't a great fielder, I'd also include Ichiro, but he has no power.
Pujols wasn't very good at third or in left or right, but he's a very good first baseman.

Aidan
08-16-2004, 05:14 PM
When he's healthy, Ken Griffey, Jr. Oh yeah that's right.....You're right. For that half a season or less, Griffey could be the most complete player. But when he gets injured and misses over half a season he becomes the most complete La-Z-Boy ornament.

Harris=God
08-16-2004, 05:17 PM
Carlos Lee?

minastirith67
08-16-2004, 05:23 PM
Torii Hunter, you know he bring the goods!

kittle42
08-16-2004, 05:27 PM
Carlos Lee?
:?: :?: :?: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

Rocky Soprano
08-16-2004, 05:27 PM
:shammy

I be a warrior, I win!

SoxFan76
08-16-2004, 05:29 PM
I don't think Carlos Lee is that crazy of an idea. He can run, throw, and he has shown he can field. We all know he can hit for average and power, and he drives in runs. Problem is, he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and he appears VERY lazy at times.

illinibk
08-16-2004, 07:57 PM
Vlad

Randar68
08-16-2004, 08:03 PM
VladI think this discussion begins and ends with Carlos Beltran, at least right now. Speed, power, arm, defense, hits for average, get's on base...

EDIT: Man do Beltran's numbers suck in Houston, I take that back...

I'll go with ARod instead.

doublem23
08-16-2004, 08:05 PM
Eric Chavez or Scott Rolen.

SomebodyToldMe
08-16-2004, 09:07 PM
As other people have stated, A-Rod when he was at short.

And Jeremy Reed!

Harris=God
08-16-2004, 09:46 PM
According to a lot of posts here a while ago I would have thought Joe Borchard, LTP, or whatever the hell you want to call him was the best player in baseball.

Daver
08-16-2004, 09:49 PM
I also think Pudge Rodriguez should be mentioned.
Mentioned for what?

ssidebeatdown
08-16-2004, 09:58 PM
In the latest baseball america they had their all-around best players at each position. They rated everyone in the 5 tools and guess who the top 2nd baseman was? Juan Uribe

bafiarocks03
08-16-2004, 10:41 PM
In the latest baseball america they had their all-around best players at each position. They rated everyone in the 5 tools and guess who the top 2nd baseman was? Juan Uribe
all right Juan!

hose
08-16-2004, 11:04 PM
A-Rod for the regular season.

Derek Jeter for the post season.

samram
08-16-2004, 11:22 PM
Mentioned for what?
Best all-around player. He may not be the best, but he plays a tough position very well, and he's one of the league leaders in hitting, and he's a great clutch hitter.

SOXPHILE
08-16-2004, 11:24 PM
Rolen, Vlad, and I hate to say it, but Jeter and A-Rod too.

Daver
08-16-2004, 11:36 PM
Best all-around player. He may not be the best, but he plays a tough position very well, and he's one of the league leaders in hitting, and he's a great clutch hitter.
He is the poster child for how thin the catching position has become in the last twenty years. If this were 1984 he would not be in the top five for his position.

Ivan is a good catcher, that has a habit of miscalling games to pad his stats, but I will not rank him up there with Bench, Fisk, Munson, or a host of others.

samram
08-16-2004, 11:56 PM
He is the poster child for how thin the catching position has become in the last twenty years. If this were 1984 he would not be in the top five for his position.

Ivan is a good catcher, that has a habit of miscalling games to pad his stats, but I will not rank him up there with Bench, Fisk, Munson, or a host of others.
Ok, but I think only A-Rod (and maybe Rolen will get there) is among the greatest ever of the players mentioned (not sure if Bonds has been mentioned). As for 1984, I could see taking Gary Carter, Fisk (although he hit just .231 that year), maybe Lance Parrish, maybe Rich Gedman (although there's no way Gedman is better than Pudge), over IRod. I know I would be happy to have I-Rod on the Sox.

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-17-2004, 01:12 AM
Id ave to say...ehm...sosa


haha jk..um mabye ichiro..but pitching wise mabye johnsen. tough choice:tongue:

MRKARNO
08-17-2004, 01:24 AM
Rolen, Vlad, and I hate to say it, but Jeter and A-Rod too.
Jeter is very interesting. His offense has really only been really outstanding in one year, 1999 (.349 AVG 102 RBI .438 OBP 24 HR). He's been a solid, not spectacular leadoff man otherwise. Not better than Ichiro. Definately has speed. Here's why he's so interesting: he has been praised for his defense throughout his career while the truth is that he has been the single worst SS in baseball recently in terms of range by a decent margin. He has really improved by leaps and bounds this year though and should have his best defensive season in 2004. Most complete player in baseball? Not in a time when you have A-Rod, Vladdy, Abreu, etc.

MisterB
08-17-2004, 01:31 AM
In the latest baseball america they had their all-around best players at each position. They rated everyone in the 5 tools and guess who the top 2nd baseman was? Juan Uribe
To clarify, they were going on "tools" only and not on performance. Just as Borchard has outstanding tools, but little baseball skill, and therefore his performance is rather sub-par.

Vsahajpal
08-17-2004, 03:43 AM
It has to be Bobby Abreu, he does EVERYTHING well.

samram
08-17-2004, 07:06 AM
It has to be Bobby Abreu, he does EVERYTHING well.
Agreed.

34 Inch Stick
08-17-2004, 09:05 AM
Anybody going to mention Jim Edmunds. Great in all phases of the game and he plays hard.

MRKARNO
08-17-2004, 10:58 AM
Two new candidates to provoke discussion:

Adrian Beltre. He's not a speedster, but everyone keeps mentioning Rolen and Beltre plays third at just as high of a level and his offensive numbers are just as good.

Vernon Wells: He has speed but JP Riccardi doesnt allow him to use it effectively. Plays center field at a very high level. Offensive numbers are down this year, but that's probably due to injury. His pre-injury numbers this year in May and June better reflect what he's capable of healthy.

illiniwhitesox
08-17-2004, 02:09 PM
I would argue Vlad and ARod. They have all 5 tools and the stats prove it. In the future, you might see Miguel Cabrera develop into a 5 tool player.

I feel it is necessary to stick up for IRod and Pujols, on the basis of some of the arguments that I have read. I'm not stating that they are 5 tool players, I just think the knocks that have been attributed to their game are unwarranted and without basis.

Pujols played 5 positions in one year. To his credit, in that given year, his offensive stats were still superlative. This is really the first year where he has played one position and stuck with it. I'm not arguing that he is a 5 tool player. I will say, however, that he is an offensive juggarnaut, who can play multiple positions - something very few players bring to the table.

Regarding IRod, I'll take his last two seasons and match them up against the best catchers of all time. Where would the Marlins have been without him LY? Where would the Tigers be without him this year? That's one way to truly measure the value of a player. The answer is the Marlins would not have won the World Series and the Tigers would have the worst record in baseball.

Defensively, Irod forces other teams to play station to station baseball. Offensively, he is flat-out the best offensive catcher in either league.

samram
08-17-2004, 02:24 PM
Two new candidates to provoke discussion:

Adrian Beltre. He's not a speedster, but everyone keeps mentioning Rolen and Beltre plays third at just as high of a level and his offensive numbers are just as good.

Vernon Wells: He has speed but JP Riccardi doesnt allow him to use it effectively. Plays center field at a very high level. Offensive numbers are down this year, but that's probably due to injury. His pre-injury numbers this year in May and June better reflect what he's capable of healthy.
I have Wells on my fantasy team and was wondering why his stolen base total was so low. I thought it was just an injury, but I guess it's just the team's approach.

maurice
08-17-2004, 02:44 PM
A-Rod.

WSox8404
08-17-2004, 02:59 PM
Torii Hunter, you know he bring the goods!
And don't forget.....He from the hood.

habibharu
08-17-2004, 03:09 PM
And don't forget.....He from the hood. yeah straight from the hood of Arkansas.

kittle42
08-17-2004, 03:28 PM
Anybody going to mention Jim Edmunds. Great in all phases of the game and he plays hard.
Who is this Jim "Edmunds"?

kittle42
08-17-2004, 03:28 PM
Id ave to say...ehm...sosa


haha jk..um mabye ichiro..but pitching wise mabye johnsen. tough choice:tongue:
Who is this "johnsen"?

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-17-2004, 03:53 PM
Who is this "johnsen"?
??????? randy johnson.......:?:

pitcher for arizona......:?:

kittle42
08-17-2004, 04:37 PM
??????? randy johnson.......:?:

pitcher for arizona......:?:
Yes, I know to whom you were referring. Second time's a charm with the spelling!

34 Inch Stick
08-17-2004, 05:03 PM
Kittle, I cannot tell you how old that joke is getting.

kittle42
08-17-2004, 05:40 PM
Kittle, I cannot tell you how old that joke is getting.Well, then I suggest people fix their spelling and grammar. I learned most of it in grade school. I am sure everyone here attended grade school. Therefore, there are no excuses for egregious and repeated errors.

34 Inch Stick
08-18-2004, 02:24 PM
I suggest you develop new material that will dazzle us with your brilliance while highlighting our ignorance. There is no excuse for repeated use of bad humor. You are either trying to be funny and/or attempting to correct. You fail at both.

PatK
08-19-2004, 11:55 AM
I'd have to go with Vlad. The guy does it all and makes it look easy.

Other good ones: Rolen, Jim Edmonds, Derek Lee

Khalil Greene is starting to look like a future all-around player

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-19-2004, 12:05 PM
Well, then I suggest people fix their spelling and grammar. I learned most of it in grade school. I am sure everyone here attended grade school. Therefore, there are no excuses for egregious and repeated errors.
jesus i forget the "o" and get critizied for it? not only that but you go balistic. Anywho i want to change the pitcher to shingo:smile:

Vsahajpal
08-19-2004, 12:35 PM
LMAO.

You may have just forgotten the "o" in that post, but...

HomeFish
08-19-2004, 12:47 PM
Having just come back from two Cardinals games in St. Louis, I'm going to go ahead and say Albert Pujols. He impressed me muchly.

Dick Allen
08-19-2004, 01:00 PM
Put me in the Vladimir Guerrero camp.

jordan23ventura
08-20-2004, 03:28 AM
He impressed me muchly.
'Muchly'? Now THAT'S a grammatical error.

ja1022
08-21-2004, 04:50 PM
Joe Crede, accept for that inability to hit for average, lay down a bunt, hit to the opposite field with a man on 2nd, and the fact that he runs like he's got a piano strapped to his back. Other than that he's pretty complete.

Etownsox13
08-22-2004, 09:41 PM
Vlad Guerrero, Hands Down.