PDA

View Full Version : Mets and Sox riff.


bennyw41
08-16-2004, 09:14 AM
Kenny Williams taking a stand.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/mets/26945.htm

Kogs35
08-16-2004, 09:43 AM
Go Kenny!!!!

Rex Hudler
08-16-2004, 09:46 AM
I don't see the big deal.

Cubbiesuck13
08-16-2004, 09:47 AM
Because the Mets GM said he wanted to get Ordonez but he isn't a FA yet. Such comments could give Maggs the upperhand in negotiations with the Sox.

hold2dibber
08-16-2004, 10:58 AM
Because the Mets GM said he wanted to get Ordonez but he isn't a FA yet. Such comments could give Maggs the upperhand in negotiations with the Sox.
I don't see how - I think Maggs (and his agent) could safely assume that other teams would be interested in his services should he become a free agent. The GM of another team simply saying "he'd be a nice fit" doesn't really change the equation much, IMHO. I don't know the specifics of the tampering rules, but it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

idseer
08-16-2004, 11:06 AM
I don't see how - I think Maggs (and his agent) could safely assume that other teams would be interested in his services should he become a free agent. The GM of another team simply saying "he'd be a nice fit" doesn't really change the equation much, IMHO. I don't know the specifics of the tampering rules, but it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
i agree. tampering should be limited to not getting in touch with the player in any way or claiming you intend to sign that player.

fquaye149
08-16-2004, 11:14 AM
I don't see how - I think Maggs (and his agent) could safely assume that other teams would be interested in his services should he become a free agent. The GM of another team simply saying "he'd be a nice fit" doesn't really change the equation much, IMHO. I don't know the specifics of the tampering rules, but it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

there's a difference between everyone assuming that most people probably want maggs and a gm actually coming out and saying it.

now maggs can say, "it's a fact NYM wants me and they WILL pay big bucks."

as opposed to him having to take his chances

Cubbiesuck13
08-16-2004, 11:15 AM
Perhaps those comments don't give Mags as much leverage as say, a Jose Valentin but the fact remainds that his comments can be used by the player. But with Mags we all know teams are going to go after him. I don't even know if that is the reason for tampering rules, that was just my take.

Flight #24
08-16-2004, 11:28 AM
there's a difference between everyone assuming that most people probably want maggs and a gm actually coming out and saying it.

now maggs can say, "it's a fact NYM wants me and they WILL pay big bucks."

as opposed to him having to take his chances
Exactly right - this interferes with the Sox ability to get Maggs resigned BEFORE he hits the market. I want compensation, and I'd say Jose Reyes or Kaz Matsui would be just about right.

JoseCanseco6969
08-16-2004, 11:29 AM
bye bye Maggs! dont let the door kick you in the ass

Randar68
08-16-2004, 11:41 AM
i agree. tampering should be limited to not getting in touch with the player in any way or claiming you intend to sign that player.
Isn't being quoted in the media the same thing? What do you think agents make a hefty percentage for? Might as well call up the agent or Maggs at home if you're going to make comments in the NY press.

idseer
08-16-2004, 11:58 AM
Isn't being quoted in the media the same thing? What do you think agents make a hefty percentage for? Might as well call up the agent or Maggs at home if you're going to make comments in the NY press.
i don't think what the mets gm said suggested an intention to sign him. just that he'd look good in their lineup. as someone said earlier ... who wouldn't think that? it certainly didn't suggest they were ready to give him $15 mil a year. i think magglio is aware other teams would like his services.

so where do you make a line? should another team be fined if they ever mention another team's player by name? and what should the fine be? $50k? and if the team is willing to give a player 75 million what would another $50k be anyway?

i just think this particular example has NO effect on what magglio does. ergo, no harm ... no foul.

Rocky Soprano
08-16-2004, 01:02 PM
bye bye Maggs! dont let the door kick you in the ass
Oh yeah Maggs has never done anything for our team, he sucks, so lets hope he does get hit by that door!

Kilroy
08-16-2004, 01:17 PM
i don't think what the mets gm said suggested an intention to sign him. just that he'd look good in their lineup.
No, some other person in the Mets' org was quoted as saying that Maggs was the Mets' top off-season priority.

idseer
08-16-2004, 01:22 PM
No, some other person in the Mets' org was quoted as saying that Maggs was the Mets' top off-season priority.
who? link?

samram
08-16-2004, 02:12 PM
Isn't being quoted in the media the same thing? What do you think agents make a hefty percentage for? Might as well call up the agent or Maggs at home if you're going to make comments in the NY press.
Very true. The New York teams definitely use the media there to put out feelers for free agents. Here (http://www.cbaforfans.com/flood1.html) are the tampering rules that existed during the Curt Flood case:

n6 Rule 3(g) provides: "to preserve discipline and competition, and to prevent the enticement of players . . . there shall be no negotiations or dealings respecting employment, either present or prospective, between any player . . . and any club other than the club with which he is under contract or acceptance of terms, or by which he is reserved, or which has the player on its Negotiation List. . . ."
I don't know whether the rules are the same now, and I couldn't find them anywhere. I'm also not sure if the phrase "between any player...and any club" means that the player also has to be involved. However, if talking to the media could be construed as "dealings", what the Mets GM did maybe tampering. If nothing else, it weakened the Sox's leverage because Maggs now knows there is at least one other suitor (with bigger payroll capabilities).

Randar68
08-16-2004, 02:26 PM
i just think this particular example has NO effect on what magglio does. ergo, no harm ... no foul.
In the NCAA recruiting rules, coaches are not allowed to talk about any specific players before they actually sign their Letter of Intent. Doing so is a minor violation, and collecting minor violations is a sure way to have the NCAA's watchful eye examine them more closely, which no team wishes.

I was under the impression that MLB rules were similar in that management and team representatives other than fellow players were not allowed to comment about other team's prospective free agents, as that substitutes tampering.

In today's mass-media, talking to the press is like standing in front of a national audience with a bullhorn. Kenny often says, "I'm not at liberty to talk about specific players on other teams.", and I have been under the impression for years that if not a written rule, it was at least a gentleman's agreement between team execs.

TimoPerez
08-16-2004, 02:48 PM
there's a difference between everyone assuming that most people probably want maggs and a gm actually coming out and saying it.

now maggs can say, "it's a fact NYM wants me and they WILL pay big bucks."

as opposed to him having to take his chances
As some of you know, I am a bigger fan of the Mets than I am of the White Sox. I expect Magglio Ordonez' signing with the Mets to be similar to what happened last offseason. Vladimir Guerrero was expected to sign with the Mets, but they refused to guarantee him the money he wanted because of his injury. They guaranteed him much less, and gave him benefits based on at-bats to get the amount of money he wanted. I expect the Mets to offer Maggs a similar deal, but I don't know if, unlike Vlad, he will sign.

TimoPerez
08-16-2004, 02:49 PM
Exactly right - this interferes with the Sox ability to get Maggs resigned BEFORE he hits the market. I want compensation, and I'd say Jose Reyes or Kaz Matsui would be just about right.Speaking for all Met fans, I can say HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!:tongue:

Kogs35
08-16-2004, 02:52 PM
the penelty for tampering besides the 200,000 dollar fine, the penelty should also be you cant sign or trade for that player

idseer
08-16-2004, 03:29 PM
In the NCAA recruiting rules, coaches are not allowed to talk about any specific players before they actually sign their Letter of Intent. Doing so is a minor violation, and collecting minor violations is a sure way to have the NCAA's watchful eye examine them more closely, which no team wishes.

I was under the impression that MLB rules were similar in that management and team representatives other than fellow players were not allowed to comment about other team's prospective free agents, as that substitutes tampering.

In today's mass-media, talking to the press is like standing in front of a national audience with a bullhorn. Kenny often says, "I'm not at liberty to talk about specific players on other teams.", and I have been under the impression for years that if not a written rule, it was at least a gentleman's agreement between team execs.
ncaa rules are dealing with highschool kids tho. i'm not sure you can apply those kinds of rules to professional ballplayers.
it seems to me that the idea of tampering itself might be unconstitutional. is there any other job you can think of where it's against some law to be wooed by another company while you are employed, or to look for other work while you are working for someone else?

i'm just wondering here ..... what would tampering hurt anyway? if a player is going to declare free agency he'll eventually find out how much another team will pay, won't he? is the idea to try to lock a player up before he's allowed to find out his true worth on the open market? ... and is that a good thing?
i think when all is said and done the free and open discussion of the job market at the major league level shouldn't hurt anyone whether they're under contract or not.
i haven't thought about this much so maybe i'm missing something here. if so, what?

Randar68
08-16-2004, 03:35 PM
ncaa rules are dealing with highschool kids tho. i'm not sure you can apply those kinds of rules to professional ballplayers.
it seems to me that the idea of tampering itself might be unconstitutional. is there any other job you can think of where it's against some law to be wooed by another company while you are employed, or to look for other work while you are working for someone else?

i'm just wondering here ..... what would tampering hurt anyway? if a player is going to declare free agency he'll eventually find out how much another team will pay, won't he? is the idea to try to lock a player up before he's allowed to find out his true worth on the open market? ... and is that a good thing?
i think when all is said and done the free and open discussion of the job market at the major league level shouldn't hurt anyone whether they're under contract or not.
i haven't thought about this much so maybe i'm missing something here. if so, what?Those NCAA rules are not in place because they're HS kids, but rather to prevent coaches from blabbing on and on about how a new recruit fits in their program, slamming other programs publicly, commenting on a kid's ability or lack thereof which can hurt the player, the school, other schools, and in general, the entire NCAA.

In terms of MLB players, it really comes down to negotiating leverage. Plain and simple. Exploring other options before your current commitments are concluded.

Look what happenned in the NBA with Joe Smith and the Timberwolves.

99+% of the work force does not work on fixed-length contracts, which if worded properly can be legally binding, if the employer so chooses, which they normally don't.

dickallen15
08-16-2004, 04:29 PM
KW should drop this. The Mets have done nothing wrong. Who wouldn't think Magglio wouldn't look nice in their line up? He wasn't signing here anyway. Last time I checked, negotiations with the White Sox had stopped. KW pursuing this can only open up a big can of worms. Does anyone really think Ozzie wasn't talking to Freddie Garcia before the trade? Didn't KW tell the media Ozzie said there was an excellent chance Garcia would sign an extention with the White Sox? If the comments out of NY constitute tampering, the actions of the White Sox re Garcia take that to another level.

samram
08-16-2004, 04:48 PM
KW should drop this. The Mets have done nothing wrong. Who wouldn't think Magglio wouldn't look nice in their line up? He wasn't signing here anyway. Last time I checked, negotiations with the White Sox had stopped. KW pursuing this can only open up a big can of worms. Does anyone really think Ozzie wasn't talking to Freddie Garcia before the trade? Didn't KW tell the media Ozzie said there was an excellent chance Garcia would sign an extention with the White Sox? If the comments out of NY constitute tampering, the actions of the White Sox re Garcia take that to another level.

Well, I don't know what the specifics of the Garcia negotiations were, but if the Mariners gave the Sox permission to talk to him about a new deal, then it's probably not tampering. Remember that at one point, the trade would have been contingent on his signing a new deal, so it's likely that Seattle had given permission to talk to him and his agent.

dickallen15
08-16-2004, 05:26 PM
Well, I don't know what the specifics of the Garcia negotiations were, but if the Mariners gave the Sox permission to talk to him about a new deal, then it's probably not tampering. Remember that at one point, the trade would have been contingent on his signing a new deal, so it's likely that Seattle had given permission to talk to him and his agent.Do you really think Ozzie didn't "tamper" with Garcia, at least to the point that Duquette or the unnammed Mets official allegedly tampered with Magglio? All KW has to do is sign Magglio. Most people on this board don't want the Sox to sign him for what he's asking. Negotiations have stopped between the 2 parties. He is going to be a free agent. The Mets have had interest in him for a long time. Magglio and his agents know and have known for a long time the Mets are very interested in his services. They also are well aware of several other teams having interest. They may not know the terms these teams are willing to offer yet, but were willing to reject the White Sox offer and take their chances on the open market long before these comments came out. This tampering charge is just some spin KW is putting on the inevitable loss of a popular home-grown star for a couple of draft picks. Does anybody really that if these comments hadn't occurred, anything would be different between the Sox and Magglio? Just about every team is guilty of tampering to a certain degree, especially if you want to define the NY comments as tampering.

samram
08-16-2004, 06:21 PM
Do you really think Ozzie didn't "tamper" with Garcia, at least to the point that Duquette or the unnammed Mets official allegedly tampered with Magglio? All KW has to do is sign Magglio. Most people on this board don't want the Sox to sign him for what he's asking. Negotiations have stopped between the 2 parties. He is going to be a free agent. The Mets have had interest in him for a long time. Magglio and his agents know and have known for a long time the Mets are very interested in his services. They also are well aware of several other teams having interest. They may not know the terms these teams are willing to offer yet, but were willing to reject the White Sox offer and take their chances on the open market long before these comments came out. This tampering charge is just some spin KW is putting on the inevitable loss of a popular home-grown star for a couple of draft picks. Does anybody really that if these comments hadn't occurred, anything would be different between the Sox and Magglio? Just about every team is guilty of tampering to a certain degree, especially if you want to define the NY comments as tampering.
Why would KW spin it if most of the fans are in agreement with the decision? The point is teams are not supposed to make unpermitted overtures to players under contract on other teams, which the interview could be construed as. I'm not sure if it is tampering, but the tampering rules may not require there be any effect on negotiations- it could be a strict liability policy. As far as the Sox and Garcia, KW never said Garcia's name that I recall, and Seattle didn't complain about anything the Sox may have done.

LASOXFAN
08-16-2004, 06:56 PM
Speaking for all Met fans, I can say HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!:tongue:
the beauty of it is that if the mets want him you know he's got to be toast. it's like a sign from god or the cosmos and one that shouldn't be ignored. there are very few truths in the world but one that we can rely on is the ignorance of the mets and their ability to evaluate talent.

let mags get some mo vaughn money and finish his career on the DL.

TimoPerez
08-16-2004, 07:12 PM
the beauty of it is that if the mets want him you know he's got to be toast. it's like a sign from god or the cosmos and one that shouldn't be ignored. there are very few truths in the world but one that we can rely on is the ignorance of the mets and their ability to evaluate talent.

let mags get some mo vaughn money and finish his career on the DL.
The Mets do a great job of getting talent. They just don't know what to do with it. They traded Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano. They traded Nolan Ryan. They traded Tom Seaver. They also have a great minor league system now, even though they traded away their three top prospects at the deadline.

chisox06
08-16-2004, 07:19 PM
Well, I don't know what the specifics of the Garcia negotiations were, but if the Mariners gave the Sox permission to talk to him about a new deal, then it's probably not tampering. Remember that at one point, the trade would have been contingent on his signing a new deal, so it's likely that Seattle had given permission to talk to him and his agent.
Your missing one big point. Garcia was traded for, he was not a free agent at the time. The Mariners got what they wanted in return and vice versa. Thats a whole different process.

samram
08-16-2004, 07:33 PM
Your missing one big point. Garcia was traded for, he was not a free agent at the time. The Mariners got what they wanted in return and vice versa. Thats a whole different process.
Actually, that's my entire point. If Crede was going to be part of the trade, the Mariners were going to give the Sox three days to get a deal done, and if they couldn't, the trade wouldn't have happened. Seattle probably gave the Sox permission before the trade to see how Freddy would feel about playing for the Sox. Obviously, after the trade was completed, he was under contract with the Sox, and they continued negotiations. I think we're on the same side here.

chisox06
08-16-2004, 07:41 PM
Actually, that's my entire point. If Crede was going to be part of the trade, the Mariners were going to give the Sox three days to get a deal done, and if they couldn't, the trade wouldn't have happened. Seattle probably gave the Sox permission before the trade to see how Freddy would feel about playing for the Sox. Obviously, after the trade was completed, he was under contract with the Sox, and they continued negotiations. I think we're on the same side here.
Absolutely.

dickallen15
08-16-2004, 08:33 PM
Actually, that's my entire point. If Crede was going to be part of the trade, the Mariners were going to give the Sox three days to get a deal done, and if they couldn't, the trade wouldn't have happened. Seattle probably gave the Sox permission before the trade to see how Freddy would feel about playing for the Sox. Obviously, after the trade was completed, he was under contract with the Sox, and they continued negotiations. I think we're on the same side here.If you go by what KW was quoted by in newspapers and on the radio, the White Sox nver had a window to discuss a contract with Garcia. The trade happened on a Sunday, and Seattle was lollygaging around so much, KW was quoted as saying it was the last time he was calling them on Garcia. KW also was quoted in the Sporting News that day as saying that Ozzie told him he had a 99% chance at signing him to an extension. There is no question Ozzie had been talking to Freddy since the Sox had interest even though Freddy was still a member of the Mariners. Seattle didn't care because they didn't want to give Garcia the huge contract, and the White Sox offer was head and shoulders above everybody else's. The point I'm making is the White Sox are as guilty as anyone else when it comes to alleged tampering. The charge against the Mets is laughable. KW should be spending his time figuring out how to get some bullpen help, and what he's going to do to get minor league pitchers coming Chicago actually get someone out, then leveling these charges.

LASOXFAN
08-16-2004, 08:39 PM
The Mets do a great job of getting talent. They just don't know what to do with it. They traded Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano. They traded Nolan Ryan. They traded Tom Seaver. They also have a great minor league system now, even though they traded away their three top prospects at the deadline.
I'm sorry, but the roster they put out there just doesn't support your point.

TimoPerez
08-16-2004, 08:53 PM
I'm sorry, but the roster they put out there just doesn't support your point.
Looking back on what I wrote, my point was not clear at all. I meant minor league talent that comes into the major leagues. They have developed some fantastic players. Some of them though, they just have no idea what to do with.

LASOXFAN
08-17-2004, 02:53 AM
Looking back on what I wrote, my point was not clear at all. I meant minor league talent that comes into the major leagues. They have developed some fantastic players. Some of them though, they just have no idea what to do with.
it's surprising to me they don't field a better team given their financial resources. A healthy Ordonez would be a big plus, but the key word is healthy.

pinwheels3530
08-17-2004, 03:54 AM
bye bye Maggs! dont let the door kick you in the ass
What's with the dumb comment!!!:dunno: :tsk: :whatever: :maggs

gosox41
08-17-2004, 08:23 AM
Oh yeah Maggs has never done anything for our team, he sucks, so lets hope he does get hit by that door!


I like Magglio and wanted to keep him. But depending on what you read, Magglio turned down contract offers ranging anywhere from $60-$70 mill. over a 5 year period. This is after he came out and said he is happy in Chicago. And he and his agent did volunteer to take part in these negotiations. They could have easily waited until the offseason or whatever, so Magglio must have had some intention of playing here in the future.


But Magglio got greedy. Plain and simple. He wanted Vald salary or better and he's not as good as him. Start hitting like him and then talk about Vlad numbers. It's a shame that he got hurt. But that was a chance Magglio (andm ost players take) when they don't sign what I consider to be a favorable contract. It sucks and I feel bad for him. But on the hand, screw him. He was not signing a very fair contract to him for an extra $1 mill. per year or so. He was risking his happiness in Chicago, where he could be out of the limelight to possible go to one of the NY teams for a few extra million and being under NY pressure an scrutiny.

Grass isn't always greener on the other side.


Bob

TimoPerez
08-17-2004, 02:01 PM
it's surprising to me they don't field a better team given their financial resources. A healthy Ordonez would be a big plus, but the key word is healthy.They tried spending a lot of money before the 2002 season. They signed Burnitz, Astacio, Estes, D'Amico, and traded for Alomar and Vaughn. The problem was none of them, with the exception of maybe Astacio, performed anywhere near their expectations. Last year, they decided to rebuild the team. They traded away Burnitz, Alomar, and some others and got some very good prospects. That is why it was stupid of them to trade their three top prospects, one other good prospect, and Ty Wigginton for Kris Benson and Victor Zambrano. The owner, Fred Wilpon, also decided that they would only spend about 80 million dollars this season. I expect a similar payroll next season. They will probably offer Maggs 9 million guaranteed and based on how many plate appearances he gets, he can make up to 12 or 13 million dollars.

Hangar18
08-17-2004, 02:31 PM
Of course the METS want Magglio. They want ANY AMERICAN LEAGUE player

they can get their hands on. Thats a Bogus Organization, a bogus farm system (just now have a prospect or 2 worth talking about according to some scouts) a Bogus stadium, Bogus uniforms (sorry, Black and Blue DONT work together)

Magglio would be a Fool to go there .........

And for the record ......... Thats TAMPERING in my book. If there was a Commissioner in Baseball, they'd be Levied a Very Hefty Fine right about now.
HEFTY

Hangar18
08-17-2004, 02:34 PM
I like Magglio and wanted to keep him. ..................


But Magglio got greedy. Plain and simple. He wanted Vald salary or better and he's not as good as him. Start hitting like him and then talk about Vlad numbers. It's a shame that he got hurt. But that was a chance Magglio (andm ost players take) when they don't sign what I consider to be a favorable contract. It sucks and I feel bad for him. But on the hand, screw him. He was not signing a very fair contract to him for an extra $1 mill. per year or so. He was risking his happiness in Chicago, where he could be out of the limelight to possible go to one of the NY teams for a few extra million and being under NY pressure an scrutiny.

Grass isn't always greener on the other side.


Bob
I tend to believe this also. I know for a fact that Uncle Jerry probably gave him an incentive laden contract, full of derred clauses and such. But Maggs
and his Agent Rolled The Dice and came up Snake Eyes ........ too bad for him. That said, They better swallow their pride and come to an agreement anyway ...........

Kogs35
08-17-2004, 02:40 PM
Of course the METS want Magglio. They want ANY AMERICAN LEAGUE player

they can get their hands on. Thats a Bogus Organization, a bogus farm system (just now have a prospect or 2 worth talking about according to some scouts) a Bogus stadium, Bogus uniforms (sorry, Black and Blue DONT work together)

Magglio would be a Fool to go there .........

And for the record ......... Thats TAMPERING in my book. If there was a Commissioner in Baseball, they'd be Levied a Very Hefty Fine right about now.
HEFTY
hangar if the where a commish in baseball Besides the 200,000 dollar fine the team would not be aloud to sign that player that the team tampered with

Hangar18
08-17-2004, 02:58 PM
hangar if the where a commish in baseball Besides the 200,000 dollar fine the team would not be aloud to sign that player that the team tampered with
$200,000 G's is the amount? Someone remind me ........ why cant MLB
find a commissioner?

owensmouth
08-17-2004, 03:06 PM
$200,000 G's is the amount? Someone remind me ........ why cant MLB
find a commissioner?
Hangar, I think that something should be done about the Mets comment also. That much said, it was nothing compared to what Steinbottom said about Randy Johnson earlier this year, yet MLB Central said that the Yankees hadn't tampered. With that precedent, the Mets management probably figured they were safe. And they were probably correct.

Hangar18
08-17-2004, 04:04 PM
Hangar, I think that something should be done about the Mets comment also. That much said, it was nothing compared to what Steinbottom said about Randy Johnson earlier this year, yet MLB Central said that the Yankees hadn't tampered. With that precedent, the Mets management probably figured they were safe. And they were probably correct.
Good Point .......... I forgot about that one. Baseball REALLY NEEDS
a Commissioner

habibharu
08-17-2004, 04:07 PM
I like Magglio and wanted to keep him. But depending on what you read, Magglio turned down contract offers ranging anywhere from $60-$70 mill. over a 5 year period. This is after he came out and said he is happy in Chicago. And he and his agent did volunteer to take part in these negotiations. They could have easily waited until the offseason or whatever, so Magglio must have had some intention of playing here in the future.


But Magglio got greedy. Plain and simple. He wanted Vald salary or better and he's not as good as him. Start hitting like him and then talk about Vlad numbers. It's a shame that he got hurt. But that was a chance Magglio (andm ost players take) when they don't sign what I consider to be a favorable contract. It sucks and I feel bad for him. But on the hand, screw him. He was not signing a very fair contract to him for an extra $1 mill. per year or so. He was risking his happiness in Chicago, where he could be out of the limelight to possible go to one of the NY teams for a few extra million and being under NY pressure an scrutiny.

Grass isn't always greener on the other side.


Bob no question about it, maggs is a greedy bitch! make no mistake about it, he is a VERY good player, but is not worth the same amount of money as Vlad or tejeda. he probably deserved 11 or 12 per, BEFORE his injury. I wouldnt sign him now for more than 9 or 10