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Daver
08-14-2004, 09:45 PM
That sucked

Mots09
08-14-2004, 09:45 PM
Why in the hell did we pinch hit an average AAA player in a pressure situation for a Davis who has done pretty well everytime he has had the opportunity???


:angry: Great effort by are pitching staff minus one pitch

owensmouth
08-14-2004, 09:46 PM
Garland fails again, not that he got much help.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 09:47 PM
Once the game is handed to the pen in a tie or close game you pretty much know its over. Although I suppose they could have been worse. Im getting tired of adkins and the gopher ball though. Ozzie made a real dumb ass decision PH'ing borchard. Horrible ABs by rowand, especially in the ninth. But at least the team is starting to compete better.

BigHurt9394
08-14-2004, 09:47 PM
I completely agree, when I saw Borchard strollin to the plate I knew the game was over. It's like when Mike Jackson is brought in...you know the Sox are gonna lose.

BIG BEN FAN CLUB!

AnkleSox
08-14-2004, 09:47 PM
Garland fails again
Actually, i have to blame this on Adkins and Ozzie. Who in their right mind would put Joe Borchard in with the game on the line?

TornLabrum
08-14-2004, 09:48 PM
Garland fails again
He gives up 3 runs pitching on short rest, and the first thing we see about it on this board is this. Sheesh!

princek
08-14-2004, 09:48 PM
why even bother pitching to Ortiz he has looked Bonds like in the last 2 games.

The Wimperoo
08-14-2004, 09:49 PM
Why was Adkins pitching to Ortiz? Is Marte dead? There is no way Borchard should ever be put in that type of situation. Good managing tonight Oz :rolleyes:

owensmouth
08-14-2004, 09:49 PM
Actually, i have to blame this on Adkins and Ozzie. Who in their right mind would put Joe Borchard in with the game on the line?
Garland with his usual one crummy inning. However, the Sox offense was less than sterling. One run in the last eight innings.

JB98
08-14-2004, 09:50 PM
Garland fails again

Excuse me? Did you watch the game? Three runs in 6 IP on three days rest, that's a good start for a #4 starter. Adkins lost the game.

Again, the bullpen depth is costing us. It's the reason we are four games behind and the reason we will not win the division. In the last month, how many tie games have turned into losses in the late innings? How many one-run deficits have turned into five-run deficits? It's ridiculous. Unless Shingo or Marte are in, we can't get anybody out in the late innings.

In addition, Borchard for Davis was the dumbest move Ozzie has made all year. I stick with Davis there. If I do pinch-hit, I go with Gload.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 09:50 PM
Garland fails again
He wasnt that bad. Rowand failed again to deliver in the clutch. Adkins failed again to not give up a HR. They win as a team and lose as a team. Garland was not the reason they lost this game. A bad pitch by adkins and hitting balls right at people lost it. Garland pitched fine. I wish hed avoid the one big inning, but despite it he still gave them a chance to win. Dont forget he was going on 3 days rest too

Jjav829
08-14-2004, 09:50 PM
Why in the hell did we pinch hit an average AAA player in a pressure situation for a Davis who has done pretty well everytime he has had the opportunity???


:angry: Great effort by are pitching staff minus one pitch
I don't understand that one at all. I said I hated it when he made the move. I'd rather see Davis batting there. Or Robbie. Or Gload. Anyone but Borchard. Bad move.

Soxzilla
08-14-2004, 09:51 PM
why even bother pitching to Ortiz he has looked Bonds like in the last 2 games.
Because Ortiz is like a 12 year old compared to Barry Bonds. He only hurts if you threw a fastball down the center of the plate....which ironically is just what happened.

Intentional base on balls? No. Pitch around? Maybe.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 09:51 PM
Why was Adkins pitching to Ortiz? Is Marte dead? There is no way Borchard should ever be put in that type of situation. Good managing tonight Oz :rolleyes:
Hes not dead, but Im pretty damn sure he would have walked him, like he always seems to do in pressure situation. Granted that would have been better than a HR. Ozzie had a few brain cramps tonight

Jurr
08-14-2004, 09:51 PM
I am proud of the effort shown by the Sox tonight.

1. Garland vs. Schilling. Who would've really given Garland a chance versus Curt? Garland battled and got out of jams with the double play ball, showing that his sinker actually did benefit from a 3 day rest.
2. If Marte was available, he'd have been going against Ortiz, and that homer probably wouldn't have happened. Ortiz can't hit Marte.
3. When the Sox needed a big run late, Valentin got the job done, getting in the tying run instead of the K.
4. After the big homer by Ortiz, the Sox still battled at the plate in the ninth, getting a walk and then we did see two decent at bats by Borchard and Uribe.
5. All in all, I can't be pissed about the game. You lose games like this. We didn't get shelled and fold it up 6-2 or 9-0.
6. We still kept our one game a week pace, actually picking up two this week.
7. Guys actually hit a great pitcher hard, just hit the ball to guys tonight. That happens. Very little difference between hitting the ball at a guy and into the gap. This approach is going to be paying dividends for the Sox.

CWSGuy406
08-14-2004, 09:51 PM
why even bother pitching to Ortiz he has looked Bonds like in the last 2 games.
Davis set up away, away, away, and Adkins left a pitch right over the heart of the plate.

But I have no clue what Ozzie was thinking putting in Borchard for Davis. Absolutely a stupid move.

But we played pretty well - it's just we got caught on a night where we couldn't use two of our best relievers.

I'm not blaming the game on anyone - the Borchard move is very questionable, but like I said - if we have our whole bullpen to work with tonight, Ortiz probably doesn't hit that homerun.

Go get 'em tomorrow, Mark!

JB98
08-14-2004, 09:52 PM
Why was Adkins pitching to Ortiz? Is Marte dead? There is no way Borchard should ever be put in that type of situation. Good managing tonight Oz :rolleyes:

Marte is not dead, but he had pitched three days in a row. He needed a break.

I agree with you 100 percent about Borchard, though.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 09:52 PM
I don't understand that one at all. I said I hated it when he made the move. I'd rather see Davis batting there. Or Robbie. Or Gload. Anyone but Borchard. Bad move.
I didnt even think about alomar. Now Im even madder. Borchard better get on the next plane to charlotte and maybe we can unload his no talent ass on someone in the offseason. He sucks and is no longer a good prospect

Gimm
08-14-2004, 09:53 PM
Horrible luck with line-drives going just foul and right AT people? Check.

Garland hanging sliders to Manny and Ortiz? Check.

One too many fastballs thrown by Adkins to Manny and Ortiz? Check.

Rowand fancying himself Barry Bonds in the 9th? Check.

Borchard failing...again? Check.

Ozzie not using Robbie or Davis in place of JoBo? Check.


After getting blown off the field by Twins, Tigers, Royals and Tribe....Sox cannot take solace in these "almost" losses. No points for style. Only wins count. ****, ****, ****.

mdep524
08-14-2004, 09:54 PM
Typical Sox: just enough to lose.

I normally don't get on Ozzie about bad "strategy" managing, but today was inexcusable:

-Why on Earth would you start Wee Willie Harris against a great pitcher like Schilling? A guaranteed weak 0 for 4. At least with Robby Alomar out there you have a veteran who has a chance to get a clutch hit.

-Why pull Garland after only 6 innings? He only had one bad inning, and the bullpen was thin tonight (Marte and Politte likely not available). The only justification could have been because he was going on 3 days rest. Still, terrible decision.

-Why does Ozzie never let Neal Cotts finish his own inning? Neal should have had the entire 7th, and possibly the 8th. The guy is a capable pitcher, when given a chance.

-Then the worst of all: What the f*** was Joe Borchard doing up there as a pinch hitter in the 9th???? I cannot think of any reason for such a stupid move, except maybe to stay out of a double play- and that would be a pretty weak reason to put you worst hitter at the plate in place of one of your hottest.

Sox didn't play terribly today, but Ozzie put them in a bad position. I usually don't blame individual losses on the manager, but tonight Ozzie really dropped the ball.

Wealz
08-14-2004, 09:54 PM
Borchard is going to be a star -- once he learns to relax, so says White Sox brass.

sternrulz
08-14-2004, 09:55 PM
What in GODS name was Ozzie doing tonight?? He does'nt bring in Marte to pitch to a tough left handed bat, he brings in JOE friggin BORCHARD to pinch hit for one of our hottest hitters in the 9th.

Time to go pour another Jack and Coke. :gulp:

Jurr
08-14-2004, 09:55 PM
Screw the Borchard thing. He was due. Plus, if Ben Davis got an out, would it have mattered? It's a roll of the dice. I love how pissed off some of the fans get when they can't see the big picture in front of them. We played a good game tonight and got bit by the tired pen. Fine with me.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 09:55 PM
I dont think that i agree with this four man rotation idea. It might be ok for a while, but it will catch up to them. Not that garland had a bad game. 6 IP, 3 ER against boston and 7-8/10 times you should win

JB98
08-14-2004, 09:56 PM
I am proud of the effort shown by the Sox tonight.

1. Garland vs. Schilling. Who would've really given Garland a chance versus Curt? Garland battled and got out of jams with the double play ball, showing that his sinker actually did benefit from a 3 day rest.
2. If Marte was available, he'd have been going against Ortiz, and that homer probably wouldn't have happened. Ortiz can't hit Marte.
3. When the Sox needed a big run late, Valentin got the job done, getting in the tying run instead of the K.
4. After the big homer by Ortiz, the Sox still battled at the plate in the ninth, getting a walk and then we did see two decent at bats by Borchard and Uribe.
5. All in all, I can't be pissed about the game. You lose games like this. We didn't get shelled and fold it up 6-2 or 9-0.
6. We still kept our one game a week pace, actually picking up two this week.
7. Guys actually hit a great pitcher hard, just hit the ball to guys tonight. That happens. Very little difference between hitting the ball at a guy and into the gap. This approach is going to be paying dividends for the Sox.

Actually, we were seven down at the conclusion of play last Saturday. So, we've gained three this week. It could have been more. We should have swept the Royals.

I am pleased with the effort as well tonight. I hate to lose, but I think the team is playing with more intensity the last couple of nights. That's all I can hope for the rest of the year, since I don't think we are going to be able to win the division with this lousy bullpen.

DVsoxfan
08-14-2004, 09:56 PM
What do you think. hmm?

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 09:57 PM
Borchard is going to be a star -- once he learns to relax, so says White Sox brass.
So whens he gonna relax. I dont think ph'ing him in the top of the 9th in fenway park is gonna help him when he cant deal with hitting in the 2nd inning in comerica park or kaufmann. Hes a bust and the sooner the sox realize it the better

Jurr
08-14-2004, 09:57 PM
The main point of the whole thing is that this team is back fighting, instead of folding the tents. That's what you look at. If a team with this much talent keeps on fighting, they're actually going to play up to their potential and succeed in nights when Curt Schilling isn't pitching. I don't think this team is feeling sorry for itself anymore, and they're probably not going to be taking this loss terribly hard. They're going to be focused and ready for Buehrle to start another winning streak.

losingugly2004
08-14-2004, 09:58 PM
Excuse me? Did you watch the game? Three runs in 6 IP on three days rest, that's a good start for a #4 starter. Adkins lost the game.

Again, the bullpen depth is costing us. It's the reason we are four games behind and the reason we will not win the division. In the last month, how many tie games have turned into losses in the late innings? How many one-run deficits have turned into five-run deficits? It's ridiculous. Unless Shingo or Marte are in, we can't get anybody out in the late innings.

In addition, Borchard for Davis was the dumbest move Ozzie has made all year. I stick with Davis there. If I do pinch-hit, I go with Gload.
Heck yeah, Garland did a GREAT job!! Especially after he was almost tossed by that dimwitted ump behind the plate. I do hope he was throwing at the batter, afterall Crede was hit in the hit hand by Schilling in the 2nd inning. Atkins is still battling Jackson for the team lead in home runs let up by Sox relief pitching. Gee, I wonder which will succeed in winning this dubious honor. Kudos also to Ozzie for putting Borchard in for Big Ben. It looks like once again our manager is suffering through his rookie growing pains.

PutItOnTheBoard
08-14-2004, 09:58 PM
Jon Adkins. Ugh.

Joe Borchard. Ugh.

The Wimperoo
08-14-2004, 09:59 PM
Marte is not dead, but he had pitched three days in a row. He needed a break.

I agree with you 100 percent about Borchard, though.
Alright thanks, I didn't know he had pitched the last few days in a row. Another winnable game wasted. A shame

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:00 PM
The main point of the whole thing is that this team is back fighting, instead of folding the tents. That's what you look at. If a team with this much talent keeps on fighting, they're actually going to play up to their potential and succeed in nights when Curt Schilling isn't pitching. I don't think this team is feeling sorry for itself anymore, and they're probably not going to be taking this loss terribly hard. They're going to be focused and ready for Buehrle to start another winning streak.
I agree with you, but the series against det, cle, kc are going to come back to haunt them I think. Plus cleveland is on fire. they are the odds on favorite to take the division IMO. But we have picked up 3 games on the twinkies. I know that we have lost a few to the tribe which is why it sucks to be chasing two teams. Sox still have a shot

Jurr
08-14-2004, 10:00 PM
Sox played hard. That's the big thing you take from this. Period. They've got that fight back in 'em. They actually had decent approaches in the ninth, and they did some little things to keep themselves in it. (Good fielding on several occasions to get big DP's, getting that run in with the sac, and not giving up)....they play like this, and they're going to beat who they're supposed to beat.

misty60481
08-14-2004, 10:00 PM
How bad was Crede hurt? Uribe did good defensive job filling in to bad he couldnt come thru in 9th. Ozzie screwed up big tonite, Garland pitched almost as good as Schilling

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:02 PM
Jon Adkins. Ugh.

Joe Borchard. Ugh.

Dont forget the pathetic nights at the plate by rowand and harris. Uribe was bad too, but he was kind of thrown in there. I want to see more of robbie and less of harris

Wealz
08-14-2004, 10:02 PM
So whens he gonna relax. I dont think ph'ing him in the top of the 9th in fenway park is gonna help him when he cant deal with hitting in the 2nd inning in comerica park or kaufmann. Hes a bust and the sooner the sox realize it the better
Trust Sox player development. :bandance:

sternrulz
08-14-2004, 10:02 PM
Anyone have a good reason why Ozzie would bring in Borchard to face Foulke in the 9th? Especially considering he replaced one of our hottest hitters. I love Ozzie's fire and attitude, but I wonder about his decision making. :gulp:

chisoxt
08-14-2004, 10:03 PM
Excuse me? Did you watch the game? Three runs in 6 IP on three days rest, that's a good start for a #4 starter. Adkins lost the game.

Again, the bullpen depth is costing us. It's the reason we are four games behind and the reason we will not win the division. In the last month, how many tie games have turned into losses in the late innings? How many one-run deficits have turned into five-run deficits? It's ridiculous. Unless Shingo or Marte are in, we can't get anybody out in the late innings.

In addition, Borchard for Davis was the dumbest move Ozzie has made all year. I stick with Davis there. If I do pinch-hit, I go with Gload.
The failure of our GM to add bench and bull pen depth in the off-season is costing us dearly.

Jurr
08-14-2004, 10:03 PM
I agree with you, but the series against det, cle, kc are going to come back to haunt them I think. Plus cleveland is on fire. they are the odds on favorite to take the division IMO. But we have picked up 3 games on the twinkies. I know that we have lost a few to the tribe which is why it sucks to be chasing two teams. Sox still have a shot
You can't be thinking front runner right now. Pick the team that's on fire RIGHT NOW? No. You look at the whole equation. Minnesota has the best chance to do it, but with the starting pitching the Sox have combined with a much better fire and plate approach by everyone, the Sox can score the 4 or 5 runs a game they need to take pressure off the rotation. One arm in the pen would be great right now, but I think the Sox could make this thing very interesting. Cleveland is doing everything right at the moment, but so was Minnesota a week and a half ago. So was the Sox team a month ago. If the Sox lineup finally bows up and decides it can do the job with the talent they have (which it looks like it's starting to go that way), we're in this thing easily.

nodiggity59
08-14-2004, 10:04 PM
Does anyone here think Ozzie took Davis out b/c of the way Davis strolled off in the bottom of the 8th when he thought Adkins had a K but it was really a ball? Think maybe Oz was afraid the ump would stick it to Ben after what he did?

Just hoping b/c otherwise that was a stupid move.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:04 PM
Trust Sox player development. :bandance:
Yes because they have produced some real gems, like joe crede and mark johnson.

But once he hits 30 and is still hitting under .200, will they consider him a bust then?

Wealz
08-14-2004, 10:05 PM
Williams puts guys like Borchard, Jackson, and S. Alomar on the roster. You can't blame Guillen for using them.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:06 PM
Does anyone here think Ozzie took Davis out b/c of the way Davis strolled off in the bottom of the 8th when he thought Adkins had a K but it was really a ball? Think maybe Oz was afraid the ump would stick it to Ben after what he did?

Just hoping b/c otherwise that was a stupid move.
Thats what I was thinking too. I dont have a problem with ph for davis even though he has been hot. But why the hell borchard. You have two better lefties off the bench in alomar and gload. hell id rather have seen sandy alomar or ozzie get in there than borchard. He is flat out overmatched. he seems like a nice kid and im sure hes trying his ass off, but he is just not ready and i dont think he ever will be

Jurr
08-14-2004, 10:06 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm getting fired up. After what I saw tonight, I'm thinking we have a much better shot than I anticipated.

Ben Davis...stepping up. Rowand....stepping up. Uribe....coming back around..
Valentin...showing signs......
It's not about how you start or what you do in the meantime, it's about staying alive and then finding a way to pour it on. I think the Sox are starting to believe.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:07 PM
Williams puts guys like Borchard, Jackson, and S. Alomar on the roster. You can't blame Guillen for using them.
Williams has also put guys like garcia and contreas and everett on the roster. I think JR is more to blame than KW. Those guys w/ the exception of borchards signing bonus are cheap

Wealz
08-14-2004, 10:07 PM
Yes because they have produced some real gems, like joe crede and mark johnson.

But once he hits 30 and is still hitting under .200, will they consider him a bust then?
What about his "light tower power" though?

LongLiveFisk
08-14-2004, 10:07 PM
Does anyone here think Ozzie took Davis out b/c of the way Davis strolled off in the bottom of the 8th when he thought Adkins had a K but it was really a ball? Think maybe Oz was afraid the ump would stick it to Ben after what he did?

Just hoping b/c otherwise that was a stupid move.
Even if that was true (which I tend to doubt) I'd STILL rather take my chances with Davis than Borchard. Brutal decision.

mdep524
08-14-2004, 10:08 PM
The failure of our GM to add bench and bull pen depth in the off-season is costing us dearly.I agree about the bullpen, but honestly I don't think our bench is that bad. Tonight we had Uribe, Robbie Alomar, Gload all available off the bench. For an AL team, that's not too bad. Uribe had to come in for Crede, Alomar should have started in the first place, and Gload is a very good pinch hitter. It just so happened Ozzie decided to pinch hit his worst player in the dugout. I cannot possibly fathom why.

Soxzilla
08-14-2004, 10:09 PM
Now that i think of it. Borchard might have been put in for davis because ozzie probably feared the ump would give ben a bad call for almost walking off on him in the 8th. Stupid...but ya never know.:?:

Jurr
08-14-2004, 10:09 PM
With the Borchard thing....you weren't there for batting practice the last week. You don't know what Ozzie and Walker know about the situation. Borch may have looked this week like he was mechanically much more sound than he had been....he may have been killing the ball in BP where he may not have been doing it earlier. The Sox were definitely thinking long ball, and that's probably what they thought Borch could bring them. Especially with a guy that throws slower stuff.

Don't second guess a guy that knows INFINITELY more behind the scenes than you do.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:09 PM
What about his "light tower power" though?Maybe they can use him to entertain fans in BP then. But once the pitches come over 80 MPH and arent straight, hes in trouble

Wealz
08-14-2004, 10:09 PM
Williams has also put guys like garcia and contreas and everett on the roster. I think JR is more to blame than KW. Those guys w/ the exception of borchards signing bonus are cheap
Borchard and Jackson are on the roster because as sad as it is to admit there are no better options. I don't know why Alomar is still here.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:11 PM
With the Borchard thing....you weren't there for batting practice the last week. You don't know what Ozzie and Walker know about the situation. Borch may have looked this week like he was mechanically much more sound than he had been....he may have been killing the ball in BP where he may not have been doing it earlier. The Sox were definitely thinking long ball, and that's probably what they thought Borch could bring them. Especially with a guy that throws slower stuff.

Don't second guess a guy that knows INFINITELY more behind the scenes than you do.
Fine but whatever they saw doesnt simulate the pressure than comes in hitting with the game on the line in fenway. You have a left hander on the bench who is gonna be a HOFer and still cant hit a little. There is no good defense for putting borchard in there. You could see on his face when he walked up to the plate that he had no confidence. And just like that he was down 0-2. And he missed an elevated 85 mph fastball to K. You arent gonna get too many easier pitches to hit than that

Wealz
08-14-2004, 10:11 PM
Maybe they can use him to entertain fans in BP then. But once the pitches come over 80 MPH and arent straight, hes in trouble
When Borchard becomes the star Sox brass says he will, you'll regret this!! :bandance:

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:12 PM
When Borchard becomes the star Sox brass says he will, you'll regret this!! :bandance:
Im willing to risk it. If he becomes a star, Ill write them a letter of apology. And not a star at charlotte

nodiggity59
08-14-2004, 10:13 PM
And he missed an elevated 85 mph fastball to K. You arent gonna get too many easier pitches to hit than that
Keith Foulke is tough to hit. Lots of guys go down on his 85mph when he comes in the game. Still, Borchard was the wrong guy to use.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:15 PM
Keith Foulke is tough to hit. Lots of guys go down on his 85mph when he comes in the game. Still, Borchard was the wrong guy to use.
True but thats because they look for changeup too much. His change up while good, is rarely thrown for a strike. But borchard would have struck out if foulke set up a tee for him

skobabe8
08-14-2004, 10:18 PM
Now that i think of it. Borchard might have been put in for davis because ozzie probably feared the ump would give ben a bad call for almost walking off on him in the 8th. Stupid...but ya never know.:?:
If thats the case, then Ozzie severely, severely outmanaged himself. Awful move.
On a lighter note, everyone who said Garland sucked had me ROLLIN'! You guys are hysterical. Keep the laughs coming, guys!
:rolling: :kneeslap:

balboner
08-14-2004, 10:18 PM
This bullpen is nowhere near playoff caliber, and the scary thing is that we're going to have to use it more with this 4-man rotation plan. And about Borchard being due. If you're a good player who hasnt hit well for a while, then you're due. However, there's nothing to suggest that Borchard should be doing better than he is.

Jurr
08-14-2004, 10:19 PM
ENOUGH OF THE BORCHARD CRAP! YOU'VE GOT A 30% CHANCE AT BEST THAT ANYONE GOT A HIT IN THAT SPOT. Period! Quit being so damn pessimistic and nitpicky when the bottom line is the sox played a decent game! Good defense, good starting pitching, and they stayed in it until the end when the pitching matchup was definitely in Boston's favor!!! For the love of God...we picked up 3 games since the start of Sunday last week! You only need one game a week to pickup and you've got a division crown!

TornLabrum
08-14-2004, 10:19 PM
Borchard is going to be a star -- once he learns to relax, so says White Sox brass.
I'm glad you clarified that.

kcsportscaster
08-14-2004, 10:19 PM
I loved the effort DA SOX put together tonight, especially Garland, but W-T-F is up with Ozzie having Adkins in the game in the bottom of the eighth???? Granted, David Ortiz is a fine hitter, but Adkins made him look like Barry Bonds when he homered off him!!!! Even worse, once again, Borchard showed why is stealing money from DA SOX as he choked again in the top of the ninth when Ozzie shoule have kept Davis in the game. Will management ever realize that Borchard is a bust and should have been traded or sent back to Charlotte back around the trade deadline???? Borchard best be on the first plane to Charlotte tonight, otherwise the Sox are in deep you know what!!!!:angry:

Jurr
08-14-2004, 10:20 PM
The Adkins thing was due to Marte and Politte being used up.

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:20 PM
This bullpen is gonna be the thing that causes this team to miss out on the postseason. Its not good to begin with and now its gonna be used more with the four man rotation (which is a bad idea, make a trade or use cotts). The most reliable guys are shingo and marte. It looks like the league is starting to figure shingo out and you never know which marte is gonna show up. The O is inconsistent but still good enough i think and the top 4 starters are solid

TornLabrum
08-14-2004, 10:21 PM
Trust Sox player development. :bandance:
Teal, please!

Jurr
08-14-2004, 10:21 PM
I think a waiver wire deal is coming to get a middle reliever. I'm certain. The offense is showing signs of life, and they'll make one more move.

TornLabrum
08-14-2004, 10:22 PM
The failure of our GM to add bench and bull pen depth in the off-season is costing us dearly.
How much of that was due to the budget constraints put on him by Uncle Jer?

OurBitchinMinny
08-14-2004, 10:22 PM
ENOUGH OF THE BORCHARD CRAP! YOU'VE GOT A 30% CHANCE AT BEST THAT ANYONE GOT A HIT IN THAT SPOT. Period! Quit being so damn pessimistic and nitpicky when the bottom line is the sox played a decent game! Good defense, good starting pitching, and they stayed in it until the end when the pitching matchup was definitely in Boston's favor!!! For the love of God...we picked up 3 games since the start of Sunday last week! You only need one game a week to pickup and you've got a division crown!
Im glad the sox are playing better and im happy to see it. But why are you defending the decision to put a .260 AAA hitter in for a catcher who is hitting over .400 his last few games. Especially when you have two better left handers on the bench. Ozzie must have been going with his gut, but it was the wrong move

Gimm
08-14-2004, 10:23 PM
. I love how pissed off some of the fans get when they can't see the big picture in front of them. .
Big picture: Richard Hidalgo and Kenny Lofton/Jerry Hairston are in the Sox uniform two weeks ago.

Bucktown
08-14-2004, 10:26 PM
The Sox have to put together some wins. I realize that this was a pretty close game here and you really can't place blame on any one player. Garland pitched well. Adkins pitched very well, even the home run pitch was low in the zone. But the team has to put together some rallies. No one on this team can seem to get a clutch hit. Once again we get a couple of solo shots and rally killing sacrifice. I didn't think Curt Schilling (or Foulke) looked all that strong tonight. This team doesn't have any balls.

Oh yeah, Borchard still sucks.

Jurr
08-14-2004, 10:28 PM
We don't need those guys. The guys we have hitting on this roster, once they get the notion that they can battle and actually produce, can easily get the 4 or 5 runs they're going to need to get a lot of wins.

All we need is one more reliever, and I'm sure it's going to happen. If they're making a move to go to a four man set, they'll need another guy, and a guarantee KW is on the horn as we speak.

Bucktown
08-14-2004, 10:31 PM
We don't need those guys. The guys we have hitting on this roster, once they get the notion that they can battle and actually produce, can easily get the 4 or 5 runs they're going to need to get a lot of wins.
I agree. I don't understand the mentatlity of replacing everyone on our roster with players that are perceived to be better. Hell, it would be just as easy to start rooing for another team.

spanishwhite
08-14-2004, 10:32 PM
ENOUGH OF THE BORCHARD CRAP! YOU'VE GOT A 30% CHANCE AT BEST THAT ANYONE GOT A HIT IN THAT SPOT. Period! Quit being so damn pessimistic and nitpicky when the bottom line is the sox played a decent game! Good defense, good starting pitching, and they stayed in it until the end when the pitching matchup was definitely in Boston's favor!!! For the love of God...we picked up 3 games since the start of Sunday last week! You only need one game a week to pickup and you've got a division crown!
People if we play the way we played yesterday and tonite against the tigers and royals, we will WIN the division period.

We got beat by one of the best starting pitchers in the MLB and one of the best relievers in the AL by a single run. We are 4 games out and have 8 of our last 11 games against the worst team in the AL. If we stay right where we are(4 games out) with those 11 games left, I still like our chances. Garland pitched well, Cotts pitched well, Everett actually hit today, Lee looked like Carlos Beltran(at the plate).

I hate the loss, but we looked pretty good out there

Dick Allen
08-14-2004, 10:40 PM
The more we see of Borchard, the more his trade value goes down. :angry:

diehard
08-14-2004, 10:46 PM
:angry: I don't know about anyone else but I am done with the Mike Jackson experience.

mdep524
08-14-2004, 10:47 PM
People if we play the way we played yesterday and tonite against the tigers and royals, we will WIN the division period.

I hate the loss, but we looked pretty good out there
I agree with this, if only the Sox could keep this kind of intensity and solid baseball up against the lesser teams they'd be in 1st place right now. If the Sox took care of business against the Tigers and Royals last week, a loss like this would be acceptable. But who's to say this team won't let down against the Tigers next week or the Royals in the last week of the season if the playoffs are on the line.

The Sox annoying habit of playing down to their opponents' level is sickening, and it is going to cost them in 2004 the same way it did in '03. I would rather see the Sox play tough teams like Boston and New York, because that's when they give their best efforts and look good on the field.

skobabe8
08-14-2004, 10:48 PM
:angry: I don't know about anyone else but I am done with the Mike Jackson experience.welcome aboard!!

based on your first post I assume that you'll fit right in!!

:)

Jjav829
08-14-2004, 10:53 PM
:angry: I don't know about anyone else but I am done with the Mike Jackson experience.
Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

You're not the only one. I can't believe KW continues to keep this guy on our roster. Especially down the stretch where we are going to need to rely on every member of the bullpen to pitch in late inning situations. This guy just isn't worth it. It's really starting to piss me off that KW hasn't done something to get this piece of crap off the team. Screw his veteran leadership. He's worthless. Go get another right handed reliever who we can count on to pitch in the 8th inning. I couldn't care less about Mike Jackson's career appearances. He simply doesn't have anything at this point in his career. He should have been gone 3 months ago and yet he's still on the team. This is probably KW's worst move on the year. I really hope he isn't still on this team because KW is afraid to tell him "Mike, your career is over. Pack your bags because we need to bring in someone who can contribute something ON the mound." I can't think of any other reason he's still on this team other than KW just can't bring himself to release him, effectively ending his career (because no other team is stupid enough to put this guy on their team).

LongLiveFisk
08-14-2004, 10:55 PM
:angry: I don't know about anyone else but I am done with the Mike Jackson experience.
Join the club. Yeah, he's the "Thriller", alright. Other teams are just thrilled to death when they see him trotting in from the pen!

fusillirob1983
08-14-2004, 10:59 PM
Can anyone who keeps saying to ignore the Borchard pinch-hit because the Sox played hard tonight give any reason (besides the possibility that the ump would have been tough on him) why Borchard should have been at the plate?

Davis is hitting over .300 since the trade to the Sox and has had a lot of significant hits. Borchard sucks.

Think about this too: If the Sox tie the game, then we've got Sandy Alomar's defense behind the plate and possibly Borchard's in the outfield. Don't managers usually prefer to have their better defensive players on the field at the end of the game if possible?

The Sox played hard, no doubt about it, but it seems like Ozzie gets a free pass sometimes. I know it's his first year managing and the Sox had a good effort, which I can't say about some other games lately, but if anyone can say why Ozzie chose Joe Borchard, of all the guys on the bench at that time, to pinch-hit, then I'd really appreciate to know and understand why.

Gimm
08-14-2004, 11:03 PM
The more we see of Borchard, the more his trade value goes down. :angry:
I am sick of all the "in-between" hitters on this team - you know, guys who can't handle a fastball OR a breaking ball....or take a walk, for that matter.

Borchard, Crede, Timo, Uribe - all react to the ball late and don't have the "make-up" batspeed to handle the ball that gets in on them.

Why is it that Everett is the only one who can hit to opposite field with any kind of authority on this team? What is Greg "never met a pitch I didn't want to pull" Walker doing that's worth keeping him around? It's one thing to turn and burn on a mistake, especially in a hitter's count....and quite another to foolishly try to pull-n-uppercut a pitch middle-away time and time again, producing nothing but pop-ups and grounders.

When an offense doesn't have overwhelming talent, it can still put up a loft of runs by being smarter/more efficient than its overswinging opponent. But the Sox offense doesn't have overwhelming talent AND it's pretty damn ineffcient with its swings. Bad combo.

LASOXFAN
08-14-2004, 11:07 PM
Borchard is going to be a star -- once he learns to relax, so says White Sox brass.
Oooo...wow..."white sox brass"....well then, I take it back, Borchard rocks! Because everyone can see for themselves what geniuses White Sox Brass are.

Tonight at least...

:ozzie = :jerry (I would've used Royce in place of Ben, idiot)

samram
08-14-2004, 11:35 PM
Can anyone who keeps saying to ignore the Borchard pinch-hit because the Sox played hard tonight give any reason (besides the possibility that the ump would have been tough on him) why Borchard should have been at the plate?

Davis is hitting over .300 since the trade to the Sox and has had a lot of significant hits. Borchard sucks.

Think about this too: If the Sox tie the game, then we've got Sandy Alomar's defense behind the plate and possibly Borchard's in the outfield. Don't managers usually prefer to have their better defensive players on the field at the end of the game if possible?

The Sox played hard, no doubt about it, but it seems like Ozzie gets a free pass sometimes. I know it's his first year managing and the Sox had a good effort, which I can't say about some other games lately, but if anyone can say why Ozzie chose Joe Borchard, of all the guys on the bench at that time, to pinch-hit, then I'd really appreciate to know and understand why.
Yeah, I don't get the Borchard thing. Even Hawk sounded stunned about it. Oh well, at least they're still four games back, and hopefully Cleveland can win again tomorrow (and then start losing).

Nard
08-14-2004, 11:39 PM
The first thing that entered my mind at the start of the 9th inning was "well at least we have a chance, since Borchie Boy is nowhere near the plate, thank God."

How many times in this big losing streak has Borchie Boy been at the ****ing plate in a close game in the 9th? It seriously seems like every three games or so that Borchie is up there and kills any chance of a rally late in the game.

Little did I know Ozzie would pull the most bizarre move of the entire season. Everyone felt it, and if they say they didn't, they're a bald-faced liar: the game was over the second Borchie stepped out of that dugout.

The only consolation is knowing that we will win the series, because the game tomorrow is already over. One of the best pitchers in the majors going up against BRONSON MOTHER****ING ARROYO. Talk about "must win."

Gimm
08-14-2004, 11:45 PM
The only consolation is knowing that we will win the series, because the game tomorrow is already over. One of the best pitchers in the majors going up against BRONSON MOTHER****ING ARROYO. Talk about "must win."Talk about "the perfect game for Sox to break-out Corpseball: Director's Cut and stun even its most pessimistic observers".

Seriously, after the last 2 weeks, there are no "easy" games for this Sox squad. They hate expectations and pressure.

samram
08-14-2004, 11:49 PM
The first thing that entered my mind at the start of the 9th inning was "well at least we have a chance, since Borchie Boy is nowhere near the plate, thank God."

How many times in this big losing streak has Borchie Boy been at the ****ing plate in a close game in the 9th? It seriously seems like every three games or so that Borchie is up there and kills any chance of a rally late in the game.

Little did I know Ozzie would pull the most bizarre move of the entire season. Everyone felt it, and if they say they didn't, they're a bald-faced liar: the game was over the second Borchie stepped out of that dugout.

The only consolation is knowing that we will win the series, because the game tomorrow is already over. One of the best pitchers in the majors going up against BRONSON MOTHER****ING ARROYO. Talk about "must win."
You're right in that the game tomorrow is over, but it's because it'll be rained out. As for Borchard, I still can't come up with a reason you would use him. I would have pinch hit Sandy Alomar, let alone Robbie or Gload, before Borchard.

batmanZoSo
08-14-2004, 11:51 PM
Yeah, I don't get the Borchard thing. Even Hawk sounded stunned about it. Oh well, at least they're still four games back, and hopefully Cleveland can win again tomorrow (and then start losing).
I'm all for Cleveland handling the Twins like this. There's no way they can win a division with that bullpen. That would be just BS. Can't happen. But if they have Sota's number it would give us an outside shot.

Iguana775
08-15-2004, 12:16 AM
Garland fails again, not that he got much help.
*** are you talking about? Garland pitched on hell of a game but the offense didnt do jack ****. Garland did not fail.

Gimm
08-15-2004, 12:24 AM
*** are you talking about? Garland pitched on hell of a game but the offense didnt do jack ****. Garland did not fail.
Nor did he succeed.

I know I've been complaining about our bad luck, but Boston had some bad luck as well: Ortiz just missed a long home run in the 2nd by hooking it foul, then on the next pitch hit the ball 415 feet, a drive that would have been gone in most ballparks; Youklis just missed a 2-run homer a few innings later; there were a couple of liners hit right AT Rowand; finally, it took Jon-Jon a couple of big DP to get out of trouble.

And he still gave up 3 ER.

I guess, against Curt Shilling and the Sox, Garland had to come out firing, hitting corners and getting his curve over. In short, he had to pitch his best game of the season for Sox to have a chance. IMO, he failed.

Brian26
08-15-2004, 12:30 AM
Why in the hell did we pinch hit an average AAA player in a pressure situation for a Davis who has done pretty well everytime he has had the opportunity???


:angry: Great effort by are pitching staff minus one pitchI haven't read this entire thread yet- but my gut reaction in watching that unfold....if you recall, in the bottom of the 8th Davis made the home plate ump look really, really bad on a pitch when he got up and started running off the field. I wonder if Oz thought the ump might take out some revenge on Big Ben on a close pitch at the plate?

Brian26
08-15-2004, 12:37 AM
Does anyone here think Ozzie took Davis out b/c of the way Davis strolled off in the bottom of the 8th when he thought Adkins had a K but it was really a ball? Think maybe Oz was afraid the ump would stick it to Ben after what he did?

Just hoping b/c otherwise that was a stupid move.
I'm reading the thread all the way through----diggity picked up on this too.

beckett21
08-15-2004, 12:40 AM
I'm reading the thread all the way through----diggity picked up on this too.
I thought the exact same thing. It was best to get Ben out of there. You could tell the ump felt like Davis showed him up just by his body language.

Brian26
08-15-2004, 12:40 AM
The Adkins thing was due to Marte and Politte being used up.
No one has said this yet-

I'm going to go out on a limb....Adkins, except for the one damn pitch to Ortiz, looked sensational tonight. He dominated Ramirez, had 0-1 and 0-2 on almost all of his batters...he did a really nice job. He just let that one pitch to Ortiz get away.

nodiggity59
08-15-2004, 12:44 AM
No one has said this yet-

I'm going to go out on a limb....Adkins, except for the one damn pitch to Ortiz, looked sensational tonight. He dominated Ramirez, had 0-1 and 0-2 on almost all of his batters...he did a really nice job. He just let that one pitch to Ortiz get away.
I agree. I expect Adkins to take Politte's place next year, and the Sox to get a stud set up man with the extra cash.

Soxzilla
08-15-2004, 01:17 AM
Yeah I don't really understand all the heat towards adkins. I mean he pitched pretty damn fine and he got us out of that jam that neal clutz put us in. Had adkins let that run score then pitched a perfect inning the next winning, we'd all be complaining about how cotts blew the game and he sucks and blah blah blah, whine whine whine.

Fact of the matter is.

Why is borchard still on this team? And how soon can bring back burke?

:kelly
"I would have gotten out ortiz."

Sure you would have wunsch, after you walked around the entire lineup.

owensmouth
08-15-2004, 02:14 AM
Garland entered the game with a two run lead. His job was to win the game. He failed. Yeah, he only gave up three runs. One bad inning. That is the life history of Jon Garland, one bad inning. Dammit, he has to get through those games without that one bad inning. The one bad inning is what separates Garland from the very best in baseball. Garland, by himself, could change the entire American League Central standings, by just pitching without his one bad inning. If, on the other hand, we accept his one bad inning per game, we forfeit games such as today. Why even play them, as the White Sox had a number five pitcher going against a number one pitcher? Accepting his one bad inning is accepting defeat. He has to do better, he has to pitch without a "bad inning". And when he is given a two run lead, HE HAS TO WIN!!!!!

Bucktown
08-15-2004, 02:16 AM
I would go as far as saying that Adkins was great without exception. That home run pitch he gave up was low in the zone. I am surprised that Ortiz could hit that out.

While getting Davis out of the lineup may have been the right thing to do, replacing him with Borchard turned out to be a mistake. However, I kinow what Ozzie is trying to do. If Borchard hits one out that not only wins the game, but puts him on the right path. It would be a huge confidence booster. Unfortunately, he wasn't up to the task.

owensmouth
08-15-2004, 02:19 AM
Like everyone else, I was horrified to see Borchard batting in the top of the nineth. My first thought was "WHY?????"

The Boston broadcasters actually had an answer: Of the last 24 times that Borchard had faced right handed pitching, Borchard had 8 hits.

That said, there is no way I would have sent Borchard out to bat.

TornLabrum
08-15-2004, 02:48 AM
Garland entered the game with a two run lead. His job was to win the game. He failed. Yeah, he only gave up three runs. One bad inning. That is the life history of Jon Garland, one bad inning. Dammit, he has to get through those games without that one bad inning. The one bad inning is what separates Garland from the very best in baseball. Garland, by himself, could change the entire American League Central standings, by just pitching without his one bad inning. If, on the other hand, we accept his one bad inning per game, we forfeit games such as today. Why even play them, as the White Sox had a number five pitcher going against a number one pitcher? Accepting his one bad inning is accepting defeat. He has to do better, he has to pitch without a "bad inning". And when he is given a two run lead, HE HAS TO WIN!!!!!
The preceding post is the winner of the Mike Murphy award for crackpot sports theories.

owensmouth
08-15-2004, 03:08 AM
The preceding post is the winner of the Mike Murphy award for crackpot sports theories.
The leader of the I Like Jonnie Boy Just Like He Is platoon speaks.

Well, I don't. I want him to succeed.

OEO Magglio
08-15-2004, 03:14 AM
The leader of the I Like Jonnie Boy Just Like He Is platoon speaks.

Well, I don't. I want him to succeed.So what were you expecting out of him on 3 days rest against one of the best offenses in baseball? A quality start? Oh yeah, I forgot, it was a quality start.:rolleyes:

batmanZoSo
08-15-2004, 03:29 AM
Garland entered the game with a two run lead. His job was to win the game. He failed. Yeah, he only gave up three runs. One bad inning. That is the life history of Jon Garland, one bad inning. Dammit, he has to get through those games without that one bad inning. The one bad inning is what separates Garland from the very best in baseball. Garland, by himself, could change the entire American League Central standings, by just pitching without his one bad inning. If, on the other hand, we accept his one bad inning per game, we forfeit games such as today. Why even play them, as the White Sox had a number five pitcher going against a number one pitcher? Accepting his one bad inning is accepting defeat. He has to do better, he has to pitch without a "bad inning". And when he is given a two run lead, HE HAS TO WIN!!!!!
All of this is true, but is it possible that he's nothing more than a fourth starter? And if that's the case, this kind of performance should be expected. It's nearing the time when we have to just accept him for what he is. Eventually it'll become unfair to him. I don't think Schoeneweis gets these kinds of posts.

LongLiveFisk
08-15-2004, 09:32 AM
:tomatoaward
I guess a little controversy never hurts.

TornLabrum
08-15-2004, 09:32 AM
The leader of the I Like Jonnie Boy Just Like He Is platoon speaks.

Well, I don't. I want him to succeed.
Thanks for the mischaracterization of what I'm saying. I'm saying he gave up 3 runs on 3 days rest. If anyone is the goat in this game it's Jon Adkins. He gave up the winning run. BTW, Garland gave up as many runs as the great Curt Schilling. Did Schilling pitch a lousy game?

TornLabrum
08-15-2004, 09:33 AM
So what were you expecting out of him on 3 days rest against one of the best offenses in baseball? A quality start? Oh yeah, I forgot, it was a quality start.:rolleyes:
He expected nothing short of victory from Garland, who gave up as many runs as Curt Schilling on shorter rest. I guess this game had nothing to do with the Sox' lack of offense, Schilling's pitching, or Adkins giving up that home run that was the game loser.

TornLabrum
08-15-2004, 09:36 AM
All of this is true, but is it possible that he's nothing more than a fourth starter? And if that's the case, this kind of performance should be expected. It's nearing the time when we have to just accept him for what he is. Eventually it'll become unfair to him. I don't think Schoeneweis gets these kinds of posts.
Garland doesn't have the brains to be any better than a fourth starter. In his sixth major league season, he still has to be chewed out in August for nibbling at the plate instead of attacking the hitters. Smart pitchers learn that a whole lot younger than Garland.

Oops...I forgot, I'm the leader of the I Like Jonnie Boy Just the Way He Is Platoon. I'm not supposed to say such things.

jabrch
08-15-2004, 11:03 AM
Garland fails again, not that he got much help.
I don't call that failing. 3 runs in 6 innings vs Boston @ Fenway? That's not a failure. Adkins failed. Harris and Paulie failed. But Garland had a very solid outing.

Iguana775
08-15-2004, 12:22 PM
I don't call that failing. 3 runs in 6 innings vs Boston @ Fenway? That's not a failure. Adkins failed. Harris and Paulie failed. But Garland had a very solid outing.
That's what i was thinking. Garland pitched very well and get a ND against one of the best pitchers in the league but yet us sucked ass and failed.

Flight #24
08-15-2004, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the mischaracterization of what I'm saying. I'm saying he gave up 3 runs on 3 days rest. If anyone is the goat in this game it's Jon Adkins. He gave up the winning run. BTW, Garland gave up as many runs as the great Curt Schilling. Did Schilling pitch a lousy game?
Of course not, Schilling pitched great and Jon pitched terribly, because Curt's O scored more runs for him, and what could be a better barometer for how well one pitches than that?

owensmouth
08-15-2004, 01:09 PM
Garland gave up three runs over six innings, but mor importantly, in one inning. Schilling gave up three runs over eight innings and turned the game over to his closer with a lead.

The intent of my posts about Garland is that he gave up those runs in one inning. Until he is able to eliminate that one bad inning, Garland will continue to flounder. It is the difference between 10-10 Jon and 20-5 Jon.

Odishon
08-15-2004, 01:22 PM
3 runs in 6 innings = 4.50 era = average pitcher. Garland was lucky Ortiz didn't homer in his first ab cuz that would have made it 4 runs and era - 6.00. that ball was absolutely tattooed.

shilling wasn't much better, but then again at 14-4 he is allowed to be mediocre once in a while; his team will still be in the playoffs when it's said and done. white sox, on the other hand, needed a very good outing from Garland to have a chance and instead they got a typical tease-perfomance

Odishon
08-15-2004, 02:08 PM
for the life of me I can't understand how a supposedly good-hitting team like ours can be so consistently and badly jammed on pitches middle-away. re our hitters incapable of making simple adjustments, or are they just stubborn as hell. can greg walker shine some light on this? ward? joshua?

as i type this, willie and timo start the game against arroyo with a couple of pop ups. then lee follows. pathetic.

Odishon
08-15-2004, 02:29 PM
for the life of me I can't understand how a supposedly good-hitting team like ours can be so consistently and badly jammed on pitches middle-away. re our hitters incapable of making simple adjustments, or are they just stubborn as hell. can greg walker shine some light on this? ward? joshua?

as i type this, willie and timo start the game against arroyo with a couple of pop ups. then lee follows. pathetic.
allow me to amend the above: we can't hit or lay off a breaking ball, either.

first 4 batters all pop-ups. we've got to be the dumbest, most one-dimensional "talented" team ever.