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gobears1987
08-14-2004, 12:27 AM
Who is better? I say Big Ben, his numbers are amazing and he comes through in the clutch. He has a good arm for throwing people out and made me forget about Miguel Olivo, he is the best catcher in the trade where we got Garcia and Ben for Miggy, Reed, and Morse.

valposoxfan
08-14-2004, 01:16 AM
Who is better? I say Big Ben, his numbers are amazing and he comes through in the clutch. He has a good arm for throwing people out and made me forget about Miguel Olivo, he is the best catcher in the trade where we got Garcia and Ben for Miggy, Reed, and Morse.
I'll try and forget that this post was ever created. You have got to be kidding me. I'm pretty sure that I will have a lot of people back me up when I say that Miguel Olivo has a stronger arm than Ben Davis, and I will take Olivo's mid .200's BA at the time of the trade over Davis' sub .200 BA at the time of the trade. There is no way that Ben Davis is even remotely close to touching Olivo. Come on.

jordan23ventura
08-14-2004, 01:36 AM
I'll try and forget that this post was ever created. You have got to be kidding me. I'm pretty sure that I will have a lot of people back me up when I say that Miguel Olivo has a stronger arm than Ben Davis, and I will take Olivo's mid .200's BA at the time of the trade over Davis' sub .200 BA at the time of the trade. There is no way that Ben Davis is even remotely close to touching Olivo. Come on.
Hey, Ben is no slouch. While Olivo may have a better arm and more speed, he lacks in the ability to call a game. Notice how no one has been complaining about Davis behind the plate? Also, Davis is hitting much better than Olivo right now. Granted, both Davis and Miguel have high ceilings and it's way too early to tell, but I think we may have come out ahead, for now anyway, on the catcher side of things. This will be a fun thread to look back on in two years time, but regardless, each time Ben drives in a run and each time Garcia stops a losing streak this trade looks better and better.

Iguana775
08-14-2004, 01:55 AM
I'll try and forget that this post was ever created. You have got to be kidding me. I'm pretty sure that I will have a lot of people back me up when I say that Miguel Olivo has a stronger arm than Ben Davis, and I will take Olivo's mid .200's BA at the time of the trade over Davis' sub .200 BA at the time of the trade. There is no way that Ben Davis is even remotely close to touching Olivo. Come on.
No, you got to be kidding me...

jeremyb1
08-14-2004, 02:05 AM
Wow. Don't get me wrong I love most of you guys as people and I've certainly had some intelligent discussions on this board before but favoring a guy less than 100 at bats removed from struggling in AAA over one of the consensus best young catchers in the game by a 3 to 1 margin when so little time has passed since the deal and neither player has played everyday makes me question the point of making posts on this board that go beyond "Buehrle sure pitched a great game tonight" or "I really hope we beat up on Colon tonight". I sure hope no one ever accuses me of being biased again because for fans reknowned for being so pessimistic and down on the team a lot of posters here are clearly drinking large amounts of the kool aid.

Gimm
08-14-2004, 02:20 AM
Olivo is more talented (which is not an indictment on Davis, himself a 1st round talent, but rather a testament to Miguel's all-star tools), but as things stand right now, Miguel has been an inferior player since the trade was made.

His pitcher-handling skills are notoriously lacking, probably stemming from the language barrier and/or personality "quirks". He also commits a lot of errors, both of physical and mental variety, the latter usually not scored as errors. For someone with such a gun, his CS % is pretty ordinary. His speed is not an asset right now because he runs into WAAAY too many outs. His bunting skills are below-average. He simply cannot hit RHP. To call him work-in-progress would be understatement of the year.

Since coming over to the Sox, Davis has proven to be HIGHLY coachable - his swing looks literally twice as good as it did when he first arrived and was swinging through 89 mph fastballs in the zone. The pitchers feel very comfortable with him now, and his CS % is starting to catch on as well - if Jose hangs on to that throw in KC, that would have made it 33 % CS for Ben, same as the Great Miguel in the Sox uniform.

In the long run, I have little doubt Olivo will be the better player of the two. But as far as this season, I have been pleasantly suprised by Davis.

And we Freddy locked up, which is nice.


.....

jeremyb1
08-14-2004, 02:29 AM
His pitcher-handling skills are notoriously lacking. He commits a lot of errors, both of physical and mental variety, the latter not scored as errors most of them time. For someone with such a gun, his CS % is pretty ordinary. His speed is not an asset right now because he runs into WAAAY too many outs. His bunting skills are below-average. He simply cannot hit RHP. To call him work-in-progress would be understatement of the year.

Since when?! KW remarked that he was being given more seasoning due to his game calling skills in '02 when he was in AA. I heard no comments of the sort until after we traded him. Last year everyone was raving about how far his game calling had come along and how he was Loaiza's personal catcher during his breakout season. What's KW supposed to say at that point "He's the perfect young catcher, I can't believe we dealt him"?! Furthermore, I can show you the rigourous studies that indicate that the adjusted ERAs of pitchers are not significantly affected by who's behind the plate. Can you show me studies to the contrary? I've yet to see one.

Miggy was a top five catcher in BP's ratings of preventing base stealers last season IIRC. This season he's still throwing out more than three out of every ten runners. What are you trying to say that he's only good and not great at throwing out runners? Good thing he's gone.


And yeah you're right the guy hitting .250/.300/.486 is a work in progress unlike the guy who's hitting .236/.258/.348 on the year.

Aidan
08-14-2004, 02:37 AM
Ben Davis ROXORS all of your BOXERS!!!

balke
08-14-2004, 02:51 AM
Love ya big Ben, but most points about Olivo are true. Faster, better arm, more power, consistently clutch, spark plug, intimidating.


Ben's been great so far, but what if people actually pay attention to him, and pitch carefully, find his weakness? If he holds out, great, but I still have more faith in the Olivo talent until Ben plays more games at this level. Too early for this discussion.

skobabe8
08-14-2004, 03:03 AM
I picked Olivo. You'd have to be drinking alotta kool-aid not too. That being said, I've been very happy with Davis thus far. A guy drafted that high has to have some skill, doesnt he? The whole 'bad game calling' argument is overblown. How many pitching coaches call every pitch from the dugouts anyways?? If thats the worst thing you have to say about Olivo, he's pretty good.

jordan23ventura
08-14-2004, 03:33 AM
And yeah you're right the guy hitting .250/.300/.486 is a work in progress unlike the guy who's hitting .236/.258/.348 on the year.Tell me then, if Davis needs so much work, what is he doing wrong right now? I agree he has to finish out this season strong and make strides next season as well in order to really make a judgement at where this guy is going to be, but it's not like he's anything to compain about.

I still think Miguel is going to be a VERY good catcher sometime. Going beyond that, at the start of the season when he was playing all the time he was hitting over .300 and was a sparkplug. He could very well find consistency and become a good #2 hitter and steal quite a few bases as well. But Davis has a high ceiling, too. The Sox lost a guy that would be untouchable on most teams, but it's not like we got Mark Johnson in return (who everyone is so quick to compare him to).

By the way, I voted for Ben as the better catcher right now, meaning the guy who receives the pitches and throws them back. Not for who has more tools and is likely going to become a better player.

Aidan
08-14-2004, 05:26 AM
The interesting thing is that Ben Davis is only a year older than Olivo. Why does Olivo have so much more of a future than Davis? Davis was drafted by the Padres with the #2 pick in the 1st round of the 1995 draft. Maybe he just needed awhile to develop. Davis himself said that Seattle screwed up his swing. Maybe Gary Walker has helped him get back to where he was supposed to be by now. Either way, people seem to forget that Davis isn't that much older than Olivo. Another interesting tidbit is that both Davis and Olivo's career batting average is the same at .240. Also, Davis' career OBP is .310 while Olivo's is only .292. Olivo's career SLG is obviously higher than Davis' because he is more of a power hitter. The way I see it is that Davis could become a much better hitter than Olivo while Olivo will become more of a free-swinging power hitter, similar to Charles Johnson. Lots of home runs for a catcher but lots of strikeouts as well.

SSN721
08-14-2004, 08:19 AM
I think that right now, you have to say that Ben Davis is contributing more than Miggy, that is if Miggy would be performing the same as he has in Seattle, who knows? I think overall Miggy has greater tools, but Ben Davis seems more than adequate at the moment. I would like to see him over the rest of the year and maybe another full year before this can be a really fair comparison.

doublem23
08-14-2004, 08:40 AM
Olivo is a better catcher, but when healthy, that deal made this team a better team; for the present and near future.

34rancher
08-14-2004, 08:58 AM
The interesting thing is that Ben Davis is only a year older than Olivo. Why does Olivo have so much more of a future than Davis? Davis was drafted by the Padres with the #2 pick in the 1st round of the 1995 draft. Maybe he just needed awhile to develop. Davis himself said that Seattle screwed up his swing. Maybe Gary Walker has helped him get back to where he was supposed to be by now. Either way, people seem to forget that Davis isn't that much older than Olivo. Another interesting tidbit is that both Davis and Olivo's career batting average is the same at .240. Also, Davis' career OBP is .310 while Olivo's is only .292. Olivo's career SLG is obviously higher than Davis' because he is more of a power hitter. The way I see it is that Davis could become a much better hitter than Olivo while Olivo will become more of a free-swinging power hitter, similar to Charles Johnson. Lots of home runs for a catcher but lots of strikeouts as well.
First off, it is Greg Walker. Secind, Davis is hitting .321 since coming to the Sox. My problem is that he has 0 walks and 16 strikeouts in his 56 AB. So far, he has been fine. Hope that he turns into what his potential always said.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-14-2004, 09:43 AM
Wow. Don't get me wrong I love most of you guys as people and I've certainly had some intelligent discussions on this board before but favoring a guy less than 100 at bats removed from struggling in AAA over one of the consensus best young catchers in the game by a 3 to 1 margin when so little time has passed since the deal and neither player has played everyday makes me question the point of making posts on this board that go beyond "Buehrle sure pitched a great game tonight" or "I really hope we beat up on Colon tonight". I sure hope no one ever accuses me of being biased again because for fans reknowned for being so pessimistic and down on the team a lot of posters here are clearly drinking large amounts of the kool aid.
:violin:

Stop trying to hijack this thread so you can go back to your favorite navel-contemplating subject... how great all the superstars of tomorrow will be after the Sox traded them away.

We traded for Garcia.
Seattle tossed in a catcher.
He ain't half bad, at least not so far.
Deal with it.

:whiner:

Aidan
08-14-2004, 12:43 PM
:violin:

Stop trying to hijack this thread so you can go back to your favorite navel-contemplating subject... how great all the superstars of tomorrow will be after the Sox traded them away.

We traded for Garcia.
Seattle tossed in a catcher.
He ain't half bad, at least not so far.
Deal with it.

:whiner::) :supernana: :)

jabrch
08-14-2004, 12:51 PM
Since the trade was made - clearly Davis has outperformed Olivo. Who has more potential? Probably a draw - don't forget Davis was the #2 overall player taken. Either way - We traded a slappy OF for an ACE SP and swapped two catchers with potential, neither of whom were setting the world on fire where they were before the deal. The one we got is outperforming the one we had - so I am happy.

For all we talk about missing Olivo's tools, I don't see Davis hurting us at all behind the plate, or at the dish.

I'd still do this trade every day of the week!

Iguana775
08-14-2004, 12:54 PM
:violin:

Stop trying to hijack this thread so you can go back to your favorite navel-contemplating subject... how great all the superstars of tomorrow will be after the Sox traded them away.

We traded for Garcia.
Seattle tossed in a catcher.
He ain't half bad, at least not so far.
Deal with it.

:whiner:
LMAO....nicely played, PHG!

:supernana:

SSN721
08-14-2004, 01:02 PM
Hey, Ben is no slouch.


Don't sell yourself short Ben, you're a tremendous slouch

:D: SOrry, had to interject a little humor. The more I think about it, the more I dont think I will have a problem with Ben Davis behind the dish for the near future. Of course that is judging by his small sample size, but still, I think the kid has a decent future ahead of him with regular playing time.

Aidan
08-14-2004, 01:05 PM
I sure hope no one ever accuses me of being biased again because for fans reknowned for being so pessimistic and down on the team a lot of posters here are clearly drinking large amounts of the kool aid.You are the one who is reknowned for being pessimistic about every aspect of the White Sox and Kenny Williams. If KW managed to trade Scott Schoeneweis for Randy Johnson, I'm sure you'd find a way to show that it was a bad trade.

habibharu
08-14-2004, 01:09 PM
***** at all the people voting davis! you guys gotta get your lips off of KWs ass! Davis is nothing more than a solid backup C in this league. Sure, he may be hot right now, but that all he is, a player getting hot for a stretch

Mickster
08-14-2004, 01:30 PM
***** at all the people voting davis! you guys gotta get your lips off of KWs ass! Davis is nothing more than a solid backup C in this league. Sure, he may be hot right now, but that all he is, a player getting hot for a stretchOur lips are on KW's ass. What are your lips wrapped around? :?:

Aidan
08-14-2004, 04:45 PM
Our lips are on KW's ass. What are your lips wrapped around? :?:Billy Beane's ****. :D:

voodoochile
08-14-2004, 04:53 PM
I'll try and forget that this post was ever created. You have got to be kidding me. I'm pretty sure that I will have a lot of people back me up when I say that Miguel Olivo has a stronger arm than Ben Davis, and I will take Olivo's mid .200's BA at the time of the trade over Davis' sub .200 BA at the time of the trade. There is no way that Ben Davis is even remotely close to touching Olivo. Come on.'


Oh, come on... What did Miguel do here to endear himself so much to people? So he cried when he left. I cried when I left Chicago too. :redface:

He may or may not turn into a very good catcher offensively and defensively. He won't be Rodriquez or Fisk barring a phase transition jump in harnassing his talent.

Ben Davis may be going through one of those phase jumps right this minute right before our eyes. On the other hand, maybe he is just going through a hot streak, but right now, hands down, you take Davis which effectively makes that trade Garcia for Reed. And, as much as Reed is revered on these boards, there is absolutley NO WAY that anyone with ANY sort of baseball knowledge whatsoever wouldn't make that trade...

JRIG
08-14-2004, 04:56 PM
It's quite obvious to me, that ignoring Ben Davis' other 1,350 major league at bats and concentrating on only the last 50 (in which he has walked a grand total of 0 times while striking out 16 times), he is a future All-Star and possible Hall-of-Famer.

As a matter of fact, this reminds me of Craig Wilson's (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wilsocr02.shtml)1998 season. Obviously Ben Davis will follow his path to greatness.

beckett21
08-14-2004, 05:05 PM
It's quite obvious to me, that ignoring Ben Davis' other 1,350 major league at bats and concentrating on only the last 50 (in which he has walked a grand total of 0 times while striking out 16 times), he is a future All-Star and possible Hall-of-Famer.

As a matter of fact, this reminds me of Craig Wilson's (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wilsocr02.shtml)1998 season. Obviously Ben Davis will follow his path to greatness.
Killjoy! :redneck

Olivo has a higher ceiling, but he has yet to truly tap his potential. I don't think Davis is as good as he has played lately, but I hardly shed tears over the loss of Olivo. Davis is doing an adequate job, and gaining confidence in the process. It takes guys awhile sometimes to find themselves.

Miggy is servicable, but not a franchise-type guy in the mold of IRod or even Victor Martinez. He was replacable. We got the best player in that deal, period.

FWIW I voted for Olivo, but his absence is hardly a difference-maker with this team.

OEO Magglio
08-14-2004, 05:22 PM
***** at all the people voting davis! you guys gotta get your lips off of KWs ass! Davis is nothing more than a solid backup C in this league. Sure, he may be hot right now, but that all he is, a player getting hot for a stretchHab if Kenny traded Ben Davis for Miguel Olivo you'd be saying that Davis has a ton of potential and Miguel can't call a game, can't hit a curveball and won't ammount to anything in this league.

Gimm
08-14-2004, 05:24 PM
. And, as much as Reed is revered on these boards, there is absolutley NO WAY that anyone with ANY sort of baseball knowledge whatsoever wouldn't make that trade...
I would not have made that trade.....if the Sox were 7-10 games out of 1st.

You could have always signed Garcia for that money in the off-season.

However, with Sox embroiled in a pennant race and pitching rotation literally falling apart, the deal had to be made. Missing playoffs again this year is not an option.

That Sox had to give up such outstanding talent is, as usual, JR/KW's fault really - if Garcia is acquired in the off-season when M's couldn't get rid of him fast enough, then not only Reed and Olivo are here, but Sox are in 1st place - all those 5th starter losses and all. Sure, Sox would have had to assume another 3 mill of his salary, but, hey, it's just money.

Blob
08-14-2004, 06:41 PM
Davis is hitting .321 since coming to the Sox. Olivo is hitting .213 since going to Seattle and palying in one mroe game than Davis.


We'll just have to wait and see on this one.

Jerome
08-14-2004, 10:54 PM
Olivo's "tools" weren't really helping us. He wasn't that good. I would much rather have Freddy Garcia. Davis has been a nice throw into that deal.

batmanZoSo
08-14-2004, 11:43 PM
Hey, Ben is no slouch. While Olivo may have a better arm and more speed, he lacks in the ability to call a game. Notice how no one has been complaining about Davis behind the plate? Also, Davis is hitting much better than Olivo right now. Granted, both Davis and Miguel have high ceilings and it's way too early to tell, but I think we may have come out ahead, for now anyway, on the catcher side of things. This will be a fun thread to look back on in two years time, but regardless, each time Ben drives in a run and each time Garcia stops a losing streak this trade looks better and better.
I think the trade will work out well for both teams. The two guys we gave up will probably both be all-stars. Davis is a backup until further notice. Garcia, however is an excellent pitcher. He's good. We'll hurt from losing Olivo but catcher isn't the most vital position on the field. You can always get by with a Brad Ausmus or a Pat Borders from years ago. And we have a plethora of outfield prospects, so I'm not gonna cry over Reed. It sucks that we had to give him up but Garcia is a stud and Reed still may never pan out, so what can you do.

jeremyb1
08-15-2004, 12:43 AM
:violin:

Stop trying to hijack this thread so you can go back to your favorite navel-contemplating subject... how great all the superstars of tomorrow will be after the Sox traded them away.

We traded for Garcia.
Seattle tossed in a catcher.
He ain't half bad, at least not so far.
Deal with it.

:whiner:

Did I start this thread PHG?! What did I add to the debate that shifted the direction of the thread. I think the poll addressing whether the catcher we dealt or the one acquired was better is pretty pertinent to the trade. Do I need to say I don't think Olivo is or will be any good and that I think Ben Davis is and will be better not to "hijack" the thread.

Listen, I'm sorry we disagree but you seem to find it unacceptable for me to express my opinion on the subject even when others start the conversation. I don't understand that.

jeremyb1
08-15-2004, 12:45 AM
You are the one who is reknowned for being pessimistic about every aspect of the White Sox and Kenny Williams. If KW managed to trade Scott Schoeneweis for Randy Johnson, I'm sure you'd find a way to show that it was a bad trade.

Yeah. And I think that's absurd. At worst my accusers are no better. Do you want to find me the threads where people said "Davis is a strong acquisition" or even "Walker will straighten him out"? Based on two weeks people have done a 100% flip flop on their position because it supports KW and the team. That's not biased?

jeremyb1
08-15-2004, 01:01 AM
Just to go over this once more:

1) Miguel Olivo has significantly outperformed Ben Davis this season in 230 and 95 major league plate apperances respectively .250/.300/.486 to .228/.250/.337. Olivo also hit better in the majors this season than Davis hit in AAA (.248/.321/.397).

2) Both players performed virtually identically last season. Olivo hit .237/.287/.360 to Davis' .236/.284/.382.

3) Olivo's career numbers (.240/.292/.406 in 580 PA's) are at worse as good as Davis' (.241/.310/.367).

4) Davis has yet to have a season as good as Olivo's thus far this year.

5) Olivo is considered to have better tools.

6) Olivo is 15 months younger.

The only performanced based argument that has been advanced is that Davis has outperformed Olivo's 76 PA's in Seattle in his 56 PA's since his arrival.

Just so everyone understands that the reasoning that has led Davis to still lead Olivo by a more than two to one margin is that the two players 132 combined plate appearances hold more weight than their previous 1,933 combined at bats.

nodiggity59
08-15-2004, 01:20 AM
Just to go over this once more:

1) Miguel Olivo has significantly outperformed Ben Davis this season in 230 and 95 major league plate apperances respectively .250/.300/.486 to .228/.250/.337. Olivo also hit better in the majors this season than Davis hit in AAA (.248/.321/.397).

2) Both players performed virtually identically last season. Olivo hit .237/.287/.360 to Davis' .236/.284/.382.

3) Olivo's career numbers (.240/.292/.406 in 580 PA's) are at worse as good as Davis' (.241/.310/.367).

4) Davis has yet to have a season as good as Olivo's thus far this year.

5) Olivo is considered to have better tools.

6) Olivo is 15 months younger.

The only performanced based argument that has been advanced is that Davis has outperformed Olivo's 76 PA's in Seattle in his 56 PA's since his arrival.

Just so everyone understands that the reasoning that has led Davis to still lead Olivo by a more than two to one margin is that the two players 132 combined plate appearances hold more weight than their previous 1,933 combined at bats.
Who cares? Neither are world beaters and we weren't going anywhere w/out a pitcher like Freddy. I'm happy we have him and never had to deal with free agency or the Yankmees.

Ben:Olivo :: 6:1/2 dozen......in the scheme of things.

jeremyb1
08-15-2004, 01:34 AM
Who cares? Neither are world beaters and we weren't going anywhere w/out a pitcher like Freddy. I'm happy we have him and never had to deal with free agency or the Yankmees.

Ben:Olivo :: 6:1/2 dozen......in the scheme of things.

I'm not sure I agree with you but since I've already been accused of hijacking the thread once, I'm not going to take it that direction. The subject and first post ask which catcher is better.

OurBitchinMinny
08-15-2004, 01:40 AM
neither of them is that great of a catcher. The main thing is we got freddy garcia and have locked him up for 3 years. Thats all that matters. reed may be an ok player, but Im not losing sleep over losing him. I heard for years what a great prospect that piece of crap borchard is and while im sure reed will be better than that (he couldnt be worse) prospects are prospects till they do something at the major league level and reed hasnt yet.

WinningUgly!
08-15-2004, 01:51 AM
:bandance: :) http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/bigben.JPG:) :bandance:

BarbG
08-15-2004, 02:16 AM
Just to go over this once more:

...5) Olivo is considered to have better tools.

Not sure about the tools, but Ben has better hair!!!!

Seriously, though, I was sad to see Olivo go. I liked him but thought he was better defensively than offensively.

Ben has won me over though. Mostly because of the two games I watched where he was the only guy awake and the only guy trying to fire things up no matter what. There isn't a stat for that though.

jabrch
08-15-2004, 10:41 AM
As far as potential goes, both are loaded with it. Davis wasn't drafted #2 overall just cuz he is tall. He doesn't have Olivo's arm, but Olivo's arm was looking much worse this year than it did last year. Teams were running on him quite a bit, IIRC. I like Miguel - and I miss him. But by no means is this so clear cut that people should be getting excited about it. You are talking about 2 catchers who have yet to prove that they can play every day for their respective teams.

This feels more like hating on KW than anything to me.

SEALgep
08-15-2004, 11:10 AM
Yeah. And I think that's absurd. At worst my accusers are no better. Do you want to find me the threads where people said "Davis is a strong acquisition" or even "Walker will straighten him out"? Based on two weeks people have done a 100% flip flop on their position because it supports KW and the team. That's not biased?No, people have flip flopped because he has been catching well, and batting .321 for the Sox.

jabrch
08-15-2004, 12:04 PM
No, people have flip flopped because he has been catching well, and batting .321 for the Sox.
What's funny is that Jeremy is accusing people of flip-flopping when just a few months ago, trading Chad Bradford (yes, the Chad Bradford with a near 5.00 ERA in Oakland) for Olivo was another stupid move by KW - and that he got fleeced by KW)

The only flipflopping here is the KW haters - who will look for any excuse to bash any more he makes.

KW goes out and gets an ace sp and a serviceable C for a slappy kid with wrist problems and another serviceable C and some people want to bag on him for that. It really never ceases to amaze me.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-15-2004, 12:38 PM
What's funny is that Jeremy is accusing people of flip-flopping when just a few months ago, trading Chad Bradford (yes, the Chad Bradford with a near 5.00 ERA in Oakland) for Olivo was another stupid move by KW - and that he got fleeced by KW)

The only flipflopping here is the KW haters - who will look for any excuse to bash any more he makes.

KW goes out and gets an ace sp and a serviceable C for a slappy kid with wrist problems and another serviceable C and some people want to bag on him for that. It really never ceases to amaze me.
Jeremy isn't flip flopping. Sure it appears he is flip flopping, but that is only if you don't dig deeper to understand where jeremy is REALLY coming from. Then it becomes clear.
:cool:

jeremy -----------> jeremy's navel

as

future superstars -------> Sox trade away


:)

idseer
08-15-2004, 11:43 PM
both of these players are over-rated imo.

davis isn't as good as he is currently playing and he's terrible against lefthanders.

olivo is the opposite in the repect he better than he's currently playing but he's terrible against righthanders.

i think they're both platoon players and i wish we had em both.

but for right now i'd give the nod to davis simply because he'll face fewer lefties than olivo will face righties.

defense? for all olivo's buildup i have been unimpressed with his play and frankly i've never seen davis play but most people here seem to think he's adequate at worst.

jeremyb1
08-16-2004, 12:32 AM
What's funny is that Jeremy is accusing people of flip-flopping when just a few months ago, trading Chad Bradford (yes, the Chad Bradford with a near 5.00 ERA in Oakland) for Olivo was another stupid move by KW - and that he got fleeced by KW)

The only flipflopping here is the KW haters - who will look for any excuse to bash any more he makes.

KW goes out and gets an ace sp and a serviceable C for a slappy kid with wrist problems and another serviceable C and some people want to bag on him for that. It really never ceases to amaze me.

Again, how about digging up the thread and quoting me prior to leveling accusations Jabrch. Oh wait, if you you might find me posting comments such as:

I think odds are good Olivo will be more valuable than Bradford in the long run. Due to the lack of hitting at his position, he doesn't have to be great to be worth a lot.
and
I agreed the trade was a winner for both teams and that I think the Sox will probably benefit the most in the long run several pages ago.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31742&page=14&pp=15&highlight=olivo+bradford

So want to tell me again that I'm flip flopping? This sounds like more of a flip flop:
Olivo is, in front of our eyes, developing into a complete player, both offensively and defensively.
Sound familiar?

So want to tell me again how I'm flip flopping? I mean what do you call that? A lie? A mistake? It's something and it's certainly not accurate.

jordan23ventura
08-16-2004, 01:00 AM
As far as potential goes, both are loaded with it. Davis wasn't drafted #2 overall just cuz he is tall. He doesn't have Olivo's arm, but Olivo's arm was looking much worse this year than it did last year. Teams were running on him quite a bit, IIRC. I like Miguel - and I miss him. But by no means is this so clear cut that people should be getting excited about it. You are talking about 2 catchers who have yet to prove that they can play every day for their respective teams.

This feels more like hating on KW than anything to me.
In Miguel's defense, besides Buerhle the pitching staff wasn't doing a very good job holding runners either. Remember the Baltimore series where everyone kept stealing? I don't remember if Miguel was catching that game, but it's just an example of how ealry in the year baserunners were basically getting away with anything.

California Sox
08-16-2004, 01:02 AM
Admit it. Even people who love Miggy have to be pleasantly surprised by Davis' play. If he's a switch-hitting catcher who can hit .240 and play decent defense, he's a hell of a lot better than we thought we were getting. He's probably a million per to keep after the season, but he's beginning to look like maybe he could be a serviceable starter for 2005. By the way, everyone who says if Olivo and Davis cancel each other out then it's Garcia straight up for Reed need to remember two things: Mike Morse was an important part of that deal and Reed had a wrist injury last year. It often takes hitters twelve months to completely get their strength back. But, even so, I'm happy that Davis is helping out.

jabrch
08-16-2004, 01:18 AM
I am not sure Morse was a big part of the trade. He seemed like he was never going to make it here. There were moving him for SS to 1B cuz he didn't have the skills to play MI. I don't think his hitting was going to justify playing 1B at the major league level.

jabrch
08-16-2004, 01:19 AM
In Miguel's defense, besides Buerhle the pitching staff wasn't doing a very good job holding runners either. Remember the Baltimore series where everyone kept stealing? I don't remember if Miguel was catching that game, but it's just an example of how ealry in the year baserunners were basically getting away with anything.
I agree with you. But none-the-less I don't think there is a significant difference between what Olivo can do and what Davis can do. They are both talented young catchers who have yet to reach their potential. Hopefully they both do - I wish nothing but the best to Miggy. But I have no problem with Davis behind the dish.