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View Full Version : KW interested in Gil Meche; Seattle scouts at today's game...


Aidan
08-12-2004, 03:14 PM
Bruce Levine on ESPN1000 has been reporting that there are Seattle Mariners scouts at today's game. KW is rumored to be interested in Gil Meche and possibly Raul Ibanez.

Some people may get their wish. Crede may be as good as gone. Remember that the Mariners originally wanted him in the Freddy Garcia trade, but instead took Jeremy Reed.

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 03:15 PM
Wow. Ibanez and Meche would both be very welcomed additions.

ndgt10
08-12-2004, 03:16 PM
We better be getting both Meche AND Ibanez for Crede...

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:16 PM
Bruce Levine on ESPN1000 has been reporting that there are Seattle Mariners scouts at the game today. KW is rumored to be interested in Gil Meche and possibly Raul Ibanez.

Some people may get their wish. Crede may be as good as gone. Remember that the Mariners originally wanted him in the Freddy Garcia trade. DO NOT TRADE CREDE RIGHT NOW! you can get more in the offseason. and especially not for meche or ibanez!

ndgt10
08-12-2004, 03:17 PM
Crede is really putting on a show for those M's scouts today...In the number 9 spot in the order, he is 0-2 with 2 K's...

Tekijawa
08-12-2004, 03:17 PM
Why? Why do we want him? Why are we wasting any more prospects on "this year"? Why? Why? Why?

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:18 PM
wait check that. meche is only 25 and making less than 2 mil this year. welcome aboard!:gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

ndgt10
08-12-2004, 03:18 PM
DO NOT TRADE CREDE RIGHT NOW! you can get more in the offseason. and especially not for meche or ibanez!
Here you go again with your criticism of every move KW makes....

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:20 PM
Here you go again with your criticism of every move KW makes....read my previous post!

Huisj
08-12-2004, 03:20 PM
Hasn't Meche had some seriously bad control issues this year? Isn't his ERA around 6? I haven't checked on these things, but last I remember, he was doing awful, and was even sent down for a while.

Aidan
08-12-2004, 03:21 PM
Hasn't Meche had some seriously bad control issues this year? Isn't his ERA around 6? I haven't checked on these things, but last I remember, he was doing awful, and was even sent down for a while.Meche was solid last season. At the start of this season, he struggled so Seattle sent him down. In his last outing the other day, Meche only gave up 2 ER with 7 SO in 8 innings against the Twins.

ndgt10
08-12-2004, 03:21 PM
read my previous post!
Yes you did redeem yourself...

Anways, what happened to Meche in the 2001 and 2002 seasons...Was he injured or something?

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 03:21 PM
Hasn't Meche had some seriously bad control issues this year? Isn't his ERA around 6? I haven't checked on these things, but last I remember, he was doing awful, and was even sent down for a while.Yes he was, he just had a great start vs. the twins and besides he can't be any worse then what we have at the 5th slot right now.

Tekijawa
08-12-2004, 03:23 PM
Hasn't Meche had some seriously bad control issues this year? Isn't his ERA around 6? I haven't checked on these things, but last I remember, he was doing awful, and was even sent down for a while.5.97 his Career era is 4.66 he has a WHIP of 1.43 for his career, with this years being a 1.67 he's 3 over .500 for his career on what has been a pretty dominant team for the past few years... I don't see why we want him, Ibanez is injurred every other week... I don't want either of them

MRKARNO
08-12-2004, 03:23 PM
Hasn't Meche had some seriously bad control issues this year? Isn't his ERA around 6? I haven't checked on these things, but last I remember, he was doing awful, and was even sent down for a while. Since being called back up from AAA he's been great, but it's only 2 starts:

14 IP 14 Ks 3 BB 2.57 ERA

His 6 ERA was 7 before he got sent down

But I still dont want him and I'd rather see us hold off on acquiring another non-sure thing as we already have Contreras. It would be a better plan to just wait and sign someone in the offseason.

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:24 PM
Yes you did redeem yourself...

yeah but looking at it more closely, i would rather hang on to a cheap young player like crede and trade PK in the offseason for SP instead of doing it now. man, i wish soriano wouldnt have gotten hurt. a package of PK plus some other crap for meche and soriano would have been a pretty good deal. we could even get the m's to add in one of their stud SP from the minors. From what I have heard, they have a whole 5 man rotation of major prospects down there

owensmouth
08-12-2004, 03:25 PM
Yes he was, he just had a great start vs. the twins and besides he can't be any worse then what we have at the 5th slot right now.
He was so bad that the Mariners sent him down to the minors and you say "he can't be any worse"? Yes he can be worse. Actually, trading for the fifth starter on a last place team is like standing in front of a diesel locomotive.

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:25 PM
can anybody give a scouting report on this guy? i have watced him pitch once but dont recall what he threw like. how is his velocity?

ndgt10
08-12-2004, 03:26 PM
can anybody give a scouting report on this guy? i have watced him pitch once but dont recall what he threw like. how is his velocity?
Link from ESPN:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6266

Tekijawa
08-12-2004, 03:27 PM
can anybody give a scouting report on this guy? i have watced him pitch once but dont recall what he threw like. how is his velocity?
That should be your first clue as to why we shouldn't get him...

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:28 PM
Link from ESPN:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6266 sounds like a pretty good gamble. mid 90's, nasty curve, great command. Seems like injuries are the only thing holding him back

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:29 PM
That should be your first clue as to why we shouldn't get him... yeah, but im just so god damn TIRED of watching Credes .230 hitting ass and his long ass swings!

Tekijawa
08-12-2004, 03:36 PM
yeah, but im just so god damn TIRED of watching Credes .230 hitting ass and his long ass swings!
I'm tired of Marching out a guy every fifth game who has an era around 6, we have enough of them, why trade someone on the roster now for another one? If they want valentin in return sure, if they want to eat konerkos contract next year, fine... I don't see a pitcher with a 5.97 ERA helping anyone this year or next!

Aidan
08-12-2004, 03:36 PM
Gil Meche is 29-26 with a 4.66 ERA on his career. He has been great in his last two starts since being brought back up by Seattle. He is definately better than anyone else we have thrown up there as a 5th starter (Rauch, Diaz, Munoz, and Cotts included).

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:37 PM
I'm tired of Marching out a guy every fifth game who has an era around 6, we have enough of them, why trade someone on the roster now for another one? If they want valentin in return sure, if they want to eat konerkos contract next year, fine... I don't see a pitcher with a 5.97 ERA helping anyone this year or next! well this year he definitely wont help. but he could in the future since he is young. maybe he is a change of scenery guy. and i also suggested that we should do this trade in the offseason and offer them paulie

Aidan
08-12-2004, 03:41 PM
well this year he definitely wont help. but he could in the future since he is young. maybe he is a change of scenery guy. and i also suggested that we should do this trade in the offseason and offer them paulieSeattle won't want Paulie. They have Bucky Jacobsen (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7378) lighting it up since being brought up from the minors. He is also making nothing. Paulie is making $8 million. The Mariners are cutting payroll, not adding it. They want young, cheap players with a possible future (i.e. Joe Crede). Last time I checked, Seattle still needs a third baseman.

Tekijawa
08-12-2004, 03:43 PM
well this year he definitely wont help. but he could in the future since he is young. maybe he is a change of scenery guy. and i also suggested that we should do this trade in the offseason and offer them paulie
I'm also sick of Change of Scenery guys... I've been force fed them ever since Kenny got here... I want a DIFERENCE MAKER, and if we give up Paulie I want a lot more than GIl Meche and Ibanez back in return!!! GO into the off season with what we have now, make deals then when we can get some quality back in return..

ndgt10
08-12-2004, 03:43 PM
Also, with Crede playing in Seattle, we will have a better chance against them when we go on our west coast trips!

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:44 PM
I'm also sick of Change of Scenery guys... I've been force fed them ever since Kenny got here... I want a DIFERENCE MAKER, and if we give up Paulie I want a lot more than GIl Meche and Ibanez back in return!!! GO into the off season with what we have now, make deals then when we can get some quality back in return.. oh, no question about it. when i said that we should offer them paulie, meche isnt the only thing we should expect back. i want one or two of their stud minor leauge SP

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:45 PM
Seattle won't want Paulie. They have Bucky Jacobsen (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7378) lighting it up since being brought up from the minors. He is also making nothing. Paulie is making $8 million. The Mariners are cutting payroll, not adding it. They want young, cheap players with a possible future (i.e. Joe Crede). Last time I checked, Seattle still needs a third baseman. he could DH

Aidan
08-12-2004, 03:45 PM
I'm also sick of Change of Scenery guys... I've been force fed them ever since Kenny got here... I want a DIFERENCE MAKER, and if we give up Paulie I want a lot more than GIl Meche and Ibanez back in return!!! GO into the off season with what we have now, make deals then when we can get some quality back in return..I definately think Paulie will be traded, but not until this offseason. Paulie doesn't really fit the team that KW and Ozzie want to build. He has no speed and has never heard of "small-ball". Many teams would love his bat. But we sure as hell aren't going to trade Paulie for Gil Meche.

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 03:45 PM
I want a DIFERENCE MAKERAnd Freddy Garcia is.........?

Tekijawa
08-12-2004, 03:46 PM
Seattle won't want Paulie. They have Bucky Jacobsen (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7378) lighting it up since being brought up from the minors. He is also making nothing. Paulie is making $8 million. The Mariners are cutting payroll, not adding it. They want young, cheap players with a possible future (i.e. Joe Crede). Last time I checked, Seattle still needs a third baseman.
What about Koneko for Ichiro? He's a lefty Grinder CF, anyone know his contract status, I'm guessing he makes more than Pauly, I guarantee he's older too!

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:47 PM
And Freddy Garcia is.........? a number 2 SP. we went over this yesterday, remember?

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:47 PM
What about Koneko for Ichiro? He's a lefty Grinder CF, anyone know his contract status, I'm guessing he makes more than Pauly, I guarantee he's older too! no chance in hell! they wouldnt trade ichiro for anybody! he draws waaaay too many fans

ndgt10
08-12-2004, 03:47 PM
What about Koneko for Ichiro? He's a lefty Grinder CF, anyone know his contract status, I'm guessing he makes more than Pauly, I guarantee he's older too!
NO WAY in hell they will trade Ichiro...

Aidan
08-12-2004, 03:49 PM
What about Koneko for Ichiro? He's a lefty Grinder CF, anyone know his contract status, I'm guessing he makes more than Pauly, I guarantee he's older too!Ichiro isn't going anywhere and definately not for Konerko.

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 03:52 PM
we went over this yesterday, remember?Unfortunately.

Tekijawa
08-12-2004, 03:54 PM
Ichiro isn't going anywhere and definately not for Konerko.Just thought that they might be looking to dump salary, he's due 11 million over the next three years, he's 32... I think for Crede and Konerko he might be able to be had? Lot's of wierd Clauses too:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/6937897

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:55 PM
if we trade crede, who is gonna play 3b? hopefull it WONT be uribe and it will be either Glaus or Beltre

Gimm
08-12-2004, 03:56 PM
sounds like a pretty good gamble. mid 90's, nasty curve, great command. Seems like injuries are the only thing holding him back

Yeah, but does he still have that great fastball and curve?

Meche, like Contreras, is just the right kind of a player Sox should take a chance on - an underachiever guy with a very high ceiling. But unlike Contreras, Meche had a very serious injury in the past, so giving up a lot of talent for him will not be smart.

If he passes the physical, and if the velocity and break on his stuff are still are still top-noth...then Sox might have to seriously consider giving up Crede.

Might.

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:57 PM
Yeah, but does he still have that great fastball and curve?

Meche, like Contreras, is just the right kind of a player Sox should take a chance on - an underachiever guy with a very high ceiling. But unlike Contreras, Meche had a very serious injury in the past, so giving up a lot of talent for him will not be smart.

If he passes the physical, and if the velocity and break on his stuff are still are still top-noth...then Sox might have to seriously consider giving up Crede.

Might. and, unlike contreras, he isnt 58!

Aidan
08-12-2004, 03:58 PM
Just thought that they might be looking to dump salary, he's due 11 million over the next three years, he's 32... I think for Crede and Konerko he might be able to be had? Lot's of wierd Clauses too:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/6937897The Mariners just aren't trading him. He brings crowds to the ballpark and they want to build the team around him, not trade him.

jackbrohamer
08-12-2004, 03:58 PM
I thought from the title of this thread KW was gong to get Benji Gil back in the fold. After all he once was on the Sox roster, so he's got all the qualifications..............

habibharu
08-12-2004, 03:59 PM
I thought from the title of this thread KW was gong to get Benji Gil back in the fold. After all he once was on the Sox roster, so he's got all the qualifications.............. *****!!:)

AddisonStSox
08-12-2004, 04:14 PM
Haven't we had enough of this type of player? I don't want to gamble anymore. Wait it out, and sign a big name pitcher in the off-season. Meche isn't the answer. I still think Crede and PK are very attractive to some teams, why, I do not know, but they are...KW can do better if he waits, I don't want to just settle.

gosox63
08-12-2004, 04:42 PM
Haven't we had enough of this type of player? I don't want to gamble anymore. Wait it out, and sign a big name pitcher in the off-season. Meche isn't the answer. I still think Crede and PK are very attractive to some teams, why, I do not know, but they are...KW can do better if he waits, I don't want to just settle.
your having a hard time finding out why teams would want Konerko????

ez

:dtroll: :supernana: :happybday :gulp: :bandance: :) :dtroll: :supernana:

Huisj
08-12-2004, 05:07 PM
your having a hard time finding out why teams would want Konerko????

ez

:dtroll: :supernana: :happybday :gulp: :bandance: :) :dtroll: :supernana:

uh, so the reasons are:
-konerko has two pet trolls
-he has three bananas
-he drinks on his birthday
-his head spins

any team would want a guy with those qualities.

iwannago
08-12-2004, 05:11 PM
Yeah, but does he still have that great fastball and curve?

Meche, like Contreras, is just the right kind of a player Sox should take

If he passes the physical



Whose Dr will give the physical?

Gimm
08-12-2004, 05:20 PM
Haven't we had enough of this type of player? I don't want to gamble anymore. Wait it out, and sign a big name pitcher in the off-season. . We CAN'T AFFORD Pavanos and Odalis Perezes, ok.

And even if we could, in the FA year, it's very possible they are overachieving 1999 Milwood-style right now, and will revert to their 2003 form as soon as they get big-time money. Last thing the 2005 team needs is another 2004 Bartolo or 2004 Ponson on its hands.

Meche is every bit as talented as Pavano and Perez. It's just a matter of him being healthy. He is pretty cheap. If Diaz and Cotts have a problem with it, they can always out-pitch Meche and take his job away. :rolleyes:

As long as Sox don't give up much for him, why the hell not?

AddisonStSox
08-12-2004, 05:28 PM
uh, so the reasons are:
-konerko has two pet trolls
-he has three bananas
-he drinks on his birthday
-his head spins

any team would want a guy with those qualities.
*****...how could I have overlooked that.

hi8is
08-12-2004, 05:31 PM
We CAN'T AFFORD Pavanos and Odalis Perezes, ok.

And even if we could, in the FA year, it's very possible they are overachieving 1999 Milwood-style right now, and will revert to their 2003 form as soon as they get big-time money. Last thing the 2005 team needs is another 2004 Bartolo or 2004 Ponson on its hands.

Meche is every bit as talented as Pavano and Perez. It's just a matter of him being healthy. He is pretty cheap. If Diaz and Cotts have a problem with it, they can always out-pitch Meche and take his job away. :rolleyes:

As long as Sox don't give up much for him, why the hell not?
this post makes meche look much better... but i still crede as a beltran... dodgers had him for what, 6 years and now he is finaly tearin it up

Gimm
08-12-2004, 05:41 PM
this post makes meche look much better... but i still crede as a beltran... dodgers had him for what, 6 years and now he is finaly tearin it up
Crede??

No, give them Mike "next Juan Pierre" Spidale and they should thank their lucky stars.

SoxxoS
08-12-2004, 05:48 PM
this post makes meche look much better... but i still crede as a beltran... dodgers had him for what, 6 years and now he is finaly tearin it up
I think you are thinking of Beltre, and has some legit excuses as to why he wasn't producing...he had hardly any time in the minors, had an appendectomy...took time to fix some kinks he had developed, and had to do it at the major league level.

Crede is NOT Beltre. Don't expect him to be. Crede is Joe Randa at best.

hi8is
08-12-2004, 05:53 PM
I think you are thinking of Beltre, and has some legit excuses as to why he wasn't producing...he had hardly any time in the minors, had an appendectomy...took time to fix some kinks he had developed, and had to do it at the major league level.

Crede is NOT Beltre. Don't expect him to be. Crede is Joe Randa at best.
yeah, i was thinking of beltre... i dont expect crede to be like that, just the fact that he will produce to his potential like beltre did...
i expect crede to be a .280/25/80 type of guy

JB98
08-12-2004, 05:54 PM
I definately think Paulie will be traded, but not until this offseason. Paulie doesn't really fit the team that KW and Ozzie want to build. He has no speed and has never heard of "small-ball". Many teams would love his bat. But we sure as hell aren't going to trade Paulie for Gil Meche.

And I love his bat. He is the best hitter on the team, the most consistent hitter on the team and the league's leader in HRs. No way we should trade him. He is worth every bit of 8.5 million a year. If we do trade him, I better see a PROVEN ACE STARTER coming our way in return.

Soxzilla
08-12-2004, 06:02 PM
If we pick up meche now, that means there is more of a chance we resign magglio and/or go after another big name offensive player like.....carlos beltran.

Aidan
08-12-2004, 06:20 PM
uh, so the reasons are:
-konerko has two pet trolls
-he has three bananas
-he drinks on his birthday
-his head spins

any team would want a guy with those qualities.MWAHAHAHA!!!

SoxxoS
08-12-2004, 09:23 PM
yeah, i was thinking of beltre... i dont expect crede to be like that, just the fact that he will produce to his potential like beltre did...
i expect crede to be a .280/25/80 type of guy
And right now (allegedly his prime) he is going to be a .230/20/65 guy. Not exactly Scott Rolen.

soxwon
08-12-2004, 09:28 PM
Why? Why do we want him? Why are we wasting any more prospects on "this year"? Why? Why? Why?
because we are still in a race, and we will win the division

doublem23
08-12-2004, 09:28 PM
because we are still in a race, and we will win the division
There's a difference between getting a solid pitcher and Gil Meche.

SoxxoS
08-12-2004, 09:34 PM
There's a difference between getting a solid pitcher and Gil Meche.
I remember reading various articles last year, when Meche was 100% healthy, about scouts just raving about his stuff.

If we could get him for something reasonable, I would be all for it. I don't even have to look at his numbers this year and I know he is undoubtedly better than Diaz, Cotts, Munoz and Curly.

jordan23ventura
08-12-2004, 09:57 PM
he could DH
Why would the Mariners pull a stupid stunt like that? The guy will be in the last year of his contract and making 8mil IIRC. Why would they give up minor league talent and add payroll for a guy they don't need? Seattle is rebuilding, remember?

Aidan
08-12-2004, 10:01 PM
Why would the Mariners pull a stupid stunt like that? The guy will be in the last year of his contract and making 8mil IIRC. Why would they give up minor league talent and add payroll for a guy they don't need? Seattle is rebuilding, remember?That's what I was trying to point out. Habibharu obviously knows nothing about baseball.

voodoochile
08-12-2004, 10:07 PM
That's what I was trying to point out. Habibharu obviously knows nothing about baseball.
You can get banned around here for using Daver's line. Using it non-sarcastically to attack another poster would DEFINITELY be considered crossing the line.

Discuss posts, not posters. You have been warned.

Aidan
08-12-2004, 10:11 PM
You can get banned around here for using Daver's line. Using it non-sarcastically to attack another poster would DEFINITELY be considered crossing the line.

Discuss posts, not posters. You have been warned.What is "Daver's line"?

voodoochile
08-12-2004, 10:11 PM
What is "Daver's line"?
"I know nothing about baseball"

Gimm
08-12-2004, 10:31 PM
"I know nothing about baseball"
Well, he should know himself better than anyone, right?

jeremyb1
08-12-2004, 10:45 PM
I find it hilarious that Rauch is an injured washed up pitcher and Meche is really good. Rauch was minor league player of the year in '00, had labrum surgery and has been mediocre since. Meche was a prominent young pitcher, had labrum surgery after the '00 season and has been godawful since with the exception of his first half last season (6.08 ERA in the second half of '00, 5.98 ERA this season).

nodiggity59
08-12-2004, 10:48 PM
Rauch doesn't still throw in the mid 90s, Meche supposedly does. Big difference when projecting future success.

Huisj
08-12-2004, 11:17 PM
"I know nothing about baseball"
i thought it was "what the hell do I know?"

i could be wrong though, because what do i know?

Aidan
08-12-2004, 11:20 PM
I find it hilarious that Rauch is an injured washed up pitcher and Meche is really good. Rauch was minor league player of the year in '00, had labrum surgery and has been mediocre since. Meche was a prominent young pitcher, had labrum surgery after the '00 season and has been godawful since with the exception of his first half last season (6.08 ERA in the second half of '00, 5.98 ERA this season).Career Numbers:

Gil Meche (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6266)
4.66 ERA
29 Wins
26 Losses

Jon Rauch (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6620)
6.23 ERA
4 Wins
2 Losses

I know it's a small sample size for Rauch but Meche has proven that he can be a decent #4 or #5. Rauch has yet to do that. Rauch will probably blossum in Montreal where there's no pressure, even if you suck.
Rauch doesn't still throw in the mid 90s, Meche supposedly does. Big difference when projecting future success.Another good point. Meche throws in the mid 90's while Rauch is lucky to see low 90's. Meche also has a better arsenal of pitches...
"Meche has a fastball in the mid-90s and a nasty curve, plus a slider and a changeup." (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scouting?statsId=6266)

Gimm
08-12-2004, 11:27 PM
I find it hilarious that Rauch is an injured washed up pitcher and Meche is really good. Rauch was minor league player of the year in '00, had labrum surgery and has been mediocre since. Meche was a prominent young pitcher, had labrum surgery after the '00 season and has been godawful since with the exception of his first half last season (6.08 ERA in the second half of '00, 5.98 ERA this season).Rauch lost velocity and break as well as his good control.

Gil Meche didn't. Well, except for the control part - he has been very erratic.

If Rauch still had his old stuff.....injury or not, struggles or not, he would still be pretty untouchable.

I guess it all comes down to what the head scouts say. Do they consider Meche "fixable" or not? Is it reasonable to expect him to remain compltely healthy for years to come? And so on.

There's always risk, understandably. That's why I am uneasy about giving up Crede for him - and I've been as harsh on Joe as anyone.

What's wrong with Mike Spidale instead, Seattle?

Aidan
08-12-2004, 11:31 PM
What's wrong with Mike Spidale instead, Seattle?I'm not so sure a speedy corner outfielder with no power is very desirable to the Mariners. They already have one of those and he actually has some pop in his bat -- Ichiro.

Gimm
08-12-2004, 11:54 PM
I'm not so sure a speedy corner outfielder with no power is very desirable to the Mariners. .This guy is going to finish the season with a 450 Slug in a pitcher's park.

His OBP is already up to .385 and climbing.

He can flat-out run and is pretty damn good defensively.

Gritty prospect whose development is far from done.


And why SHOULD Seattle get more for a pitcher who odds say could end up on DL at any moment (labrum and all) and whose command has been non-existent in more than a year? Because he has good stuff? Well, so does Rick Ankiel; let's trade Brandon MaCarthy for him, what do you say.....

Harris=God
08-12-2004, 11:56 PM
Why? Why do we want him? Why are we wasting any more prospects on "this year"? Why? Why? Why?
You sound like nancy kerigan

bigfoot
08-13-2004, 12:04 AM
Can KW please look into acquiring Brett Tomko? No other reason needs to be made, other than Julia Schultz....Tomko's wife.

jeremyb1
08-13-2004, 12:45 AM
Rauch doesn't still throw in the mid 90s, Meche supposedly does. Big difference when projecting future success.

Well Rauch never consistently threw much harder than 93-94. We're talking about a guy whose number one strength was considered to be knowing how to pitch. He might've topped out at higher but he was certainly throwing as hard as he ever did at the end of the '00 season against the Twins. So the fact that Meche has supposedly hit the mid 90s since his injury doesn't seperate him from Rauch any.

jeremyb1
08-13-2004, 12:47 AM
Career Numbers:

Gil Meche (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6266)
4.66 ERA
29 Wins
26 Losses

Jon Rauch (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6620)
6.23 ERA
4 Wins
2 Losses

I know it's a small sample size for Rauch but Meche has proven that he can be a decent #4 or #5. Rauch has yet to do that. Rauch will probably blossum in Montreal where there's no pressure, even if you suck.
Another good point. Meche throws in the mid 90's while Rauch is lucky to see low 90's. Meche also has a better arsenal of pitches...
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Well not only is it a small sample size for Rauch but he never threw in the majors prior to his injury whereas Meche logged parts of two seasons. If we're operating under the assumption that both pitchers' careers have been hurt by injuries then obviously Meche's career ERA will be lower since he pitched a signficant amount in the majors prior to his injury.

jeremyb1
08-13-2004, 12:48 AM
Rauch lost velocity and break as well as his good control.

Gil Meche didn't. Well, except for the control part - he has been very erratic.

If Rauch still had his old stuff.....injury or not, struggles or not, he would still be pretty untouchable.

I guess it all comes down to what the head scouts say. Do they consider Meche "fixable" or not? Is it reasonable to expect him to remain compltely healthy for years to come? And so on.

Yeah. That just makes me nervous because the scouts have definitely been wrong before and we're talking about an injury with an awful recovery rate and a guy who has had some tremendous struggles since he returned.

Gimm
08-13-2004, 01:13 AM
Well Rauch never consistently threw much harder than 93-94. We're talking about a guy whose number one strength was considered to be knowing how to pitch. He might've topped out at higher but he was certainly throwing as hard as he ever did at the end of the '00 season against the Twins. So the fact that Meche has supposedly hit the mid 90s since his injury doesn't seperate him from Rauch any.Rauch used to throw 90-93 even before the injury. Now, he is 88-91.

I guess the combination of soreness, fear of getting re-injured, shortage of confidence in himself and the mechanical tweaks they made to lessen the wear'n'tear on his shoulder really affected his command. And with his post-surgery stuff not being the same, he simply can't afford mediocre location.

I would take Meche in a second if it were for a B/B+ prospect. Crede? Not so sure about that.

MisterB
08-13-2004, 01:46 AM
Well not only is it a small sample size for Rauch but he never threw in the majors prior to his injury whereas Meche logged parts of two seasons. If we're operating under the assumption that both pitchers' careers have been hurt by injuries then obviously Meche's career ERA will be lower since he pitched a signficant amount in the majors prior to his injury.
Meche's stats since surgery:

17-18, 4.94 era, 1.43 WHIP, 6.86 k/9, 2.01 k/bb

Rauch lifetime

4-2, 6.23, 1.62, 5.61, 1.42

Mohoney
08-13-2004, 01:53 AM
Yeah, but does he still have that great fastball and curve?

Meche, like Contreras, is just the right kind of a player Sox should take a chance on - an underachiever guy with a very high ceiling. But unlike Contreras, Meche had a very serious injury in the past, so giving up a lot of talent for him will not be smart.

If he passes the physical, and if the velocity and break on his stuff are still are still top-noth...then Sox might have to seriously consider giving up Crede.

Might.

Do you really think Seattle would ask for Crede in a Meche trade? The guy is so oft-injured, and he evidently doesn't fit into Bill Bavasi's plan. Now, if Meche was packaged with Ron Villone, then I could see us offering a package of Crede and prospects.

Villone adds some good versatility to the bullpen, and can be re-signed rather inexpensively, probably before the season even ends. Meche solves our 5th starter dilemma, and I believe we would have his rights locked up for a few years.

We get a WHOLE lot better as a team, both for '04 and '05, if we make this kind of move.

ChiSoxBobette
08-13-2004, 06:12 AM
DO NOT TRADE CREDE RIGHT NOW! you can get more in the offseason. and especially not for meche or ibanez!
How do you figure we would get more for a ballplayer who's playing as bad as Joe Crede in the off season, if Seattle is willing to part with Meche & Ibanez for Crede than do it. Crede according to everything I've read is to stubborn to listen to Greg Walker so Crede will alaways have that long swing that will get him some HR's but more than likley popups & strikeouts.

Realist
08-13-2004, 08:19 AM
Gil Meche is 29-26 with a 4.66 ERA on his career. He has been great in his last two starts since being brought back up by Seattle. He is definately better than anyone else we have thrown up there as a 5th starter (Rauch, Diaz, Munoz, and Cotts included).When you're right, you're right. Then again, I still haven't completely given hope in Crede. Sure he's been terrible this year, and may remain practically worthless throughout the remainder of the season, but I'm not even close to convinced that he can't or even won't completely turn his career around next year.

As much as I love and miss Miggy, I think that giving up on Crede too soon has much more of a chance of becoming our "Lou Brock" or "Phil Esposito" then Miggy could ever be.

The only thing certain is uncertainty. Nothing proves this Truth more than baseball.

Two things I do know for sure; ferrets are not marmots and terriers are not pomeranians. "8 year olds, Dude".

Gimm
08-13-2004, 10:13 AM
Do you really think Seattle would ask for Crede in a Meche trade?.
Of course he will.

The key is not comply with his demand.

Gimm
08-13-2004, 10:23 AM
How do you figure we would get more for a ballplayer who's playing as bad as Joe Crede in the off season, if Seattle is willing to part with Meche & Ibanez for Crede than do it. Crede according to everything I've read is to stubborn to listen to Greg Walker so Crede will alaways have that long swing that will get him some HR's but more than likley popups & strikeouts.The problem is not that is swing is too long. The problem is that it's SLOW.

Back in August and Septmeber of 2002, you couldn't get a fastball strike by him, and he had good enough hand-eye coordination that he could be fooled by a breaking ball and STILL be able to line it hard somewhere while off-balance.

Personally I don't think it's the steroids. Maybe a nagging injury he's been hiding all this time. Confidence issue screwed up his mechanics? Who the hell knows.

mdep524
08-13-2004, 11:39 AM
How do you figure we would get more for a ballplayer who's playing as bad as Joe Crede in the off season, if Seattle is willing to part with Meche & Ibanez for Crede than do it. Crede according to everything I've read is to stubborn to listen to Greg Walker so Crede will alaways have that long swing that will get him some HR's but more than likley popups & strikeouts.
I really doubt Seatlle would give up both Ibanez and Meche for just Joe Crede. OTOH, do we really want Ibanez? Yes, he bats left handed, but he is 32 years old and is only hitting .255 this year...

beck72
08-13-2004, 01:28 PM
The only way I trade Crede to the M's is if they agree to return Jeremy Reed as part of a package with Meche. Stranger things have happened.

Iguana775
08-13-2004, 03:51 PM
The only way I trade Crede to the M's is if they agree to return Jeremy Reed as part of a package with Meche. Stranger things have happened.
LOL...wouldnt that be something.....

jeremyb1
08-13-2004, 06:48 PM
Rauch used to throw 90-93 even before the injury. Now, he is 88-91.

I guess the combination of soreness, fear of getting re-injured, shortage of confidence in himself and the mechanical tweaks they made to lessen the wear'n'tear on his shoulder really affected his command. And with his post-surgery stuff not being the same, he simply can't afford mediocre location.

Out of curiousity though, where are you getting your report on Rauch's velocity? He only pitched twice in the majors this season and there was no gun for the first game on Fox. Also, I'd guess that it was the reattatchement of his labrum itself more than anything that's hurt his pitching as all the other phenomenons you've brought up would apply to Tommy John survivors who typically throw as hard and sometimes even harder than in the past.

jeremyb1
08-13-2004, 06:52 PM
Meche's stats since surgery:

17-18, 4.94 era, 1.43 WHIP, 6.86 k/9, 2.01 k/bb

Rauch lifetime

4-2, 6.23, 1.62, 5.61, 1.42

Haha. Yes I realize. My point is that a 4.94 ERA is still poor and that those are very few innings for Rauch the majority of which occured while he was still recovering from his surgery. Meche didn't return to the majors for 2.5 years after his surgery, Rauch returned after one. The bottom line is that with virtually every labrum victim both pitchers seem to be shells of their former selves.

dickallen15
08-13-2004, 09:41 PM
Out of curiousity though, where are you getting your report on Rauch's velocity? He only pitched twice in the majors this season and there was no gun for the first game on Fox. Also, I'd guess that it was the reattatchement of his labrum itself more than anything that's hurt his pitching as all the other phenomenons you've brought up would apply to Tommy John survivors who typically throw as hard and sometimes even harder than in the past.I was at Rauch's 2 starts at USCF. I can confirm the gun there had him 88 to 91.

Jurr
08-13-2004, 09:52 PM
Who cares? Rauch is hanging out with Rocky Biddle in Montreal, and he can rot there. Carl Everett was huge tonight, and he was going to help us a lot more than Rauch. End of story. Especially when Cotts and Diaz will be in the mix once they get a little more ML experience under their belts.

jeremyb1
08-13-2004, 10:28 PM
I was at Rauch's 2 starts at USCF. I can confirm the gun there had him 88 to 91.

Ok. And I'm willing to believe he throws that hard my point is merely that 1) two starts can't do a particularly good job to attesting to how hard a player throws especially when guns are not always consistent 2) Rauch has thrown as hard as he did prior to his surgery since he returned just as is supposedly the case with Meche.

Soxzilla
08-13-2004, 10:49 PM
http://montreal.expos.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mon/news/mon_news.jsp?ymd=20040813&content_id=827173&vkey=news_mon&fext=.jsp

This puts it to rest for now.

Rauch. injured. again.

gobears1987
08-13-2004, 11:25 PM
I guess the seattle scouts can see the **** up they made in giving us Davis.

pczarapa
08-13-2004, 11:40 PM
Crede is really putting on a show for those M's scouts today...In the number 9 spot in the order, he is 0-2 with 2 K's...

Ha! Yeah he didn't exactly light it up for the scouts! :dtroll:

Tragg
08-14-2004, 12:08 AM
I saw Meche pitch Monday night at Safeco. I think that he gave up two hits over 8 innings- both homers.
Decent 4th starter type, maybe a 3 in a good year, overall, imo.