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Lip Man 1
08-12-2004, 12:16 PM
In Paul Ladewski's column today in the Daily Southtown you get a look at the 2005 Sox. Kenny Williams tells him what he expects the team to be like.

Hint... you can forget about going to see home run fireworks! My only comment is that it's about damn time to try things another way.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x12-lad1.htm

Lip

MRKARNO
08-12-2004, 12:25 PM
Reading that column made me feel good because it's obvious that Kenny Williams is not the clueless idiot that everyone makes him out to be. There's no question that we would fare much better by acquiring a top notch starter, hopefully a younger one or one named Pedro Martinez instead of Magglio Ordonez. Resigning Maggs would show that we want to continue our all or nothing ways while signing a SP would clearly show that we're going the pitching way.

habibharu
08-12-2004, 12:26 PM
great ideas, but i just hope that KW follows up this all of this talk with some action. unfortunate that maggs is as good as gone

wdelaney72
08-12-2004, 12:27 PM
The article suggests the lineup of Frank, Lee, and Konerko will still be there (plus maybe even Jose at a reduced price). I don't think so.

Any sight of Valentin on this team next year (at any price) and I may have to jump off a bridge!

habibharu
08-12-2004, 12:28 PM
we should DEFINITELY trade lee or PK, preferably PK. trade him for some cheap young OF if you can find one. And if you can find a viable replacement for him, get credes ass outta here. i am concerned, however about uribe potentially being the everyday SS. i dont think that he is an everyday player

AddisonStSox
08-12-2004, 12:29 PM
This thread popped up while I was in the middle of writing one myself about the direction the 2005 Sox should go in. Creepy.

MRKARNO
08-12-2004, 12:29 PM
The article suggests the lineup of Frank, Lee, and Konerko will still be there (plus maybe even Jose at a reduced price). I don't think so.

I think you will still see that trio forming the heart of our lineup, but it will be less power oriented without Maggs, Valentin and hopefully Crede. You do have to have SOME power, you just don't need to be as power oriented as we have been in recent years.

SomebodyToldMe
08-12-2004, 12:30 PM
"South Side Pitchmen"

i like the sound of that.

Paulwny
08-12-2004, 12:35 PM
That's fine that KW wants to go after a big name, top gun , but is JR willing to give this FA pitcher a > then 3 yr contract which another team may be willing to give and the pitcher will be seeking ?

MRKARNO
08-12-2004, 12:39 PM
That's fine that KW wants to go after a big name, top gun , but is JR willing to give this FA pitcher a > then 3 yr contract which another team may be willing to give and the pitcher will be seeking ?
These days pretty much no one is giving out pitchers contracts which are longer than 3 years because of insurance reasons, Colon being the only exception. Only the top names this offseason will probably get 4 years contracts and probably no five year contracts. We could probably get Odalis Perez on a Freddy Garcia contract (3 years 27 million) or less

soxtalker
08-12-2004, 12:47 PM
The article suggests the lineup of Frank, Lee, and Konerko will still be there (plus maybe even Jose at a reduced price). I don't think so.

Any sight of Valentin on this team next year (at any price) and I may have to jump off a bridge!
I haven't been a big supporter of Valentin's for awhile. However, his HR stats should earn him a good contract somewhere out there -- maybe not $5M, but probably more than the Sox would be willing to pay.

OurBitchinMinny
08-12-2004, 12:47 PM
Good to hear they have a plan for next year. I would like them to resign maggs and I would only trade PK for a kings ransom. If it werent for the fact that I want thomas to retire as a white sock I would be more willing to trade him than PK. But you dont trade either unless you get a lot for pk. Thomas has stuck it out here his whole career and if they are serious about getting another ace he deserves to be here. He just better stay healthy. Valentin better not be back unless he signs for about 1M as a utility player. This team also needs to strengthen its brutally bad bullpen this offseason

Iguana775
08-12-2004, 12:47 PM
The Sox will still set off their share of fireworks, what with Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee and Frank Thomas in the lineup, but the days when they live and the die by the three-run homer will be a thing of the past before long. What does that mean for free agent Magglio Ordonez? He gone. Unless free agent Jose Valentin agrees to a lesser contract while potential Gold Glover Juan Uribe takes over at shortstop, he gone, too.
so i guess WSox8404 wasnt blowing smoke after all. didnt he say that Maggs will prolly be gone and Valetin?

Wanne
08-12-2004, 12:48 PM
These days pretty much no one is giving out pitchers contracts which are longer than 3 years because of insurance reasons, Colon being the only exception. Only the top names this offseason will probably get 4 years contracts and probably no five year contracts. We could probably get Odalis Perez on a Freddy Garcia contract (3 years 27 million) or less

I'm surprised that Odalis Perez wasn't mentioned in the article. To me...I'm hopin' it's either Perez or Pavano. I'm not really enamored with the prospect of having Pedro on this team. He very well could disrupt any chemistry that this group of pitcher is forming.

steff
08-12-2004, 12:50 PM
so i guess WSox8404 wasnt blowing smoke after all. didnt he say that Maggs will prolly be gone and Valetin?

Ugh...


:puke

OurBitchinMinny
08-12-2004, 12:51 PM
I'm surprised that Odalis Perez wasn't mentioned in the article. To me...I'm hopin' it's either Perez or Pavano. I'm not really enamored with the prospect of having Pedro on this team. He very well could disrupt any chemistry that this group of pitcher is forming.
This group of pitchers chemistry (and i know its not entirely their fault, more the bullpen and offense) has the team in 3rd place. If the sox can add pedro Im all for it, but pavano might come cheaper. I wouldnt count out making a run at clement either. Im not too excited about perez

Jerko
08-12-2004, 12:53 PM
Ugh...


:puke
What she said.

Gee. Someone said that 2 players who are going to be free agents next year might be gone? How prophetic.

owensmouth
08-12-2004, 12:54 PM
The article suggests the lineup of Frank, Lee, and Konerko will still be there (plus maybe even Jose at a reduced price). I don't think so.

Any sight of Valentin on this team next year (at any price) and I may have to jump off a bridge!Please make it a high one

Tekijawa
08-12-2004, 12:55 PM
Weren't they "A year ahead of schedule" back when they didn't do anything in 2000? The next year the plan consisted of adding an injurred david wells, followed up By gtting the ACE Todd Ritchie... He may have a Plan but I fear that any pitchers name that you recognize should be put in Deep Pink until after Sterling Hitcock is finally taken off the market!

Paulwny
08-12-2004, 12:56 PM
These days pretty much no one is giving out pitchers contracts which are longer than 3 years because of insurance reasons, Colon being the only exception. Only the top names this offseason will probably get 4 years contracts and probably no five year contracts. We could probably get Odalis Perez on a Freddy Garcia contract (3 years 27 million) or less

We shall see, when JR made it public, no long term contracts for pitchers he tied his GM's hands. Another team wanting the same fa pitcher as the sox, with the money/yr being equal, will toss in another year knowing the sox will drop out.

LASOXFAN
08-12-2004, 01:04 PM
Weren't they "A year ahead of schedule" back when they didn't do anything in 2000? The next year the plan consisted of adding an injurred david wells, followed up By gtting the ACE Todd Ritchie... He may have a Plan but I fear that any pitchers name that you recognize should be put in Deep Pink until after Sterling Hitcock is finally taken off the market!
AMEN!! I was waiting for someone to point this out!! KW's been on the job for four years and taken the Sox down a very weird road, IMO. I think he's as enamored with long ball as anyone and I also think he's to blame for the pathetic team that takes the field in Sox uniforms at this time. Making Borchard untouchable while trading a guy who hits the ball to all fields (Reed)?

I think it's a good direction he's proposing, but please, let's not forget how we got lost in the first place.

the_valenstache
08-12-2004, 01:06 PM
OK, devil's advocate here, but everyone's acknowledged by now that U.S. Cellular is becoming Coors Field II. Could that affect us in finding pitchers who would want to sign here in the offseason?

Another thing I find ironic is that we've been complaining about offense all season - pitching hasn't been the primary problem. But, everyone seems willing to give up bats for arms. What gives?



Personally, I'd love to see us acquire another ace and fill our lineup with guys all under $10mil. who can actually "grind" rather than "slightly scuff" like they have all year. Jesus Chr...I mean, Billy Beane, may have been on to something.

steff
08-12-2004, 01:10 PM
What she said.

Gee. Someone said that 2 players who are going to be free agents next year might be gone? How prophetic.
No kidding.. pass the lotto #'s. :rolleyes:

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 01:14 PM
"South Side Pitchmen"

i like the sound of that.Ditto. If kenny really goes after Carl Pavano in the offseason that pitching rotation is going to be sick, Garcia, Pavano, Buehrle, Contreras, Garland.:o:

maurice
08-12-2004, 01:14 PM
I said Maggs and Valentin would be gone after KW traded for Uribe.

I guess that makes me Nostradamus.

soxtalker
08-12-2004, 01:18 PM
AMEN!! I was waiting for someone to point this out!! KW's been on the job for four years and taken the Sox down a very weird road, IMO. I think he's as enamored with long ball as anyone and I also think he's to blame for the pathetic team that takes the field in Sox uniforms at this time. Making Borchard untouchable while trading a guy who hits the ball to all fields (Reed)?

I think it's a good direction he's proposing, but please, let's not forget how we got lost in the first place.
I'm one of the few (judging by many posts) who still thinks Borchard may yet blossom. But I must admit that I don't understand the willingness to give up Reed instead of Borchard. (I suppose it is always possible that the M's weren't willing to take that choice, but it seems unlikely since the reports indicated that Crede was an alternate request from them.) It isn't so much that Borchard is struggling right now. Rather, it is the type of player that Reed is -- hitting to all fields, but less power. I'm guessing that this says something about the evaluators within the organization as well as KW.

pudge
08-12-2004, 02:15 PM
I wouldn't exactly call this "required reading". If you've been following this team, none of this is news. It's pretty clear that KW is peeved about the #5 pitching, how could he not be? And the Contreras trade was clearly designed for '05. I still don't see exactly what he's going to do to change this offense though. But I like hearing him say he's sick of watching this "all or nothing" team, because I was sick of them three years ago.

Still though, why did he keep Crede and Borchard and lose more consistent players like Olivo and Reed?

Cowch44
08-12-2004, 02:30 PM
If Pedro was signed I'd be absolutley speechless, not because it's a bad thing but that would just be awesome. Granted he doesn't have a bust season like David Wells.

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 02:31 PM
If Pedro was signed I'd be absolutley speechless, not because it's a bad thing but that would just be awesome. Granted he doesn't have a bust season like David Wells.I'd much rather have Pavano then Martinez, that being said I obviously wouldn't mind Pedro.

Wanne
08-12-2004, 02:31 PM
I wouldn't exactly call this "required reading". If you've been following this team, none of this is news. It's pretty clear that KW is peeved about the #5 pitching, how could he not be? And the Contreras trade was clearly designed for '05. I still don't see exactly what he's going to do to change this offense though. But I like hearing him say he's sick of watching this "all or nothing" team, because I was sick of them three years ago.

Still though, why did he keep Crede and Borchard and lose more consistent players like Olivo and Reed?


Maybe we didn't have that much of a choice as to who we kept. Either way...I'm happy to have Freddy in the fold for 3 years.

Baby Fisk
08-12-2004, 02:33 PM
If Pedro was signed I'd be absolutley speechless, not because it's a bad thing but that would just be awesome. Granted he doesn't have a bust season like David Wells.
The Sox signing Pedro would be one of those "shock the world" moves that I'd love to see. Actually, any of the studs whose names are coming up in posts today would be a great addition to our current Big Three, with Jonny G becoming a solid 5th starter. But anything that screws BOTH the Red Sox and Yankees, I'm very much in favour of. :cool:

mdep524
08-12-2004, 02:35 PM
That is pretty encouraging to read- I too would love to see a rotation of Buehrle/Garcia/Pavano/Contreras/Garland.

The one thing I did not like about that article is this:
but the days when they live and the die by the three-run homer will be a thing of the past before long. What does that mean for free agent Magglio Ordonez? He gone.
Blaming Maggs for the all-or-nothing Sox mentality? I would say Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede and Joe Valentin are much more responsible than Maggs. Of all those players, I think the Sox should trade Lee AND Paulie and KEEP Maggs.

batmanZoSo
08-12-2004, 02:46 PM
In Paul Ladewski's column today in the Daily Southtown you get a look at the 2005 Sox. Kenny Williams tells him what he expects the team to be like.

Hint... you can forget about going to see home run fireworks! My only comment is that it's about damn time to try things another way.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x12-lad1.htm

Lip
Praise Jesus!

I'm glad that KW is on the same wavelength as many of us.

"You know me better than that," K-Will said. "I don't want to go after a fifth starter. I want to go after somebody who will make people say after they look at our rotation, 'Wow! That's one of the best in the league.' "
Hopefully he doesn't take that attitude when looking for position players. And it sounds like he knows we need a few solid, complete players instead of one great one that hits 40 home runs. Even if you put say Carl Pavano on this team we don't get much better because we still can't manufacture runs. He'll lose games to KC when he gives up 3 in 7.

Go out and get that Pavano type and add a few of those grinders for real this time while shoring up the bullpen and we're sitting on a winner.

Win1ForMe
08-12-2004, 02:47 PM
Kenny seems to like Russ Ortiz so maybe he's the guy they would go after? Then there's the never ending chase for Corey Lidle.

batmanZoSo
08-12-2004, 02:52 PM
I haven't been a big supporter of Valentin's for awhile. However, his HR stats should earn him a good contract somewhere out there -- maybe not $5M, but probably more than the Sox would be willing to pay.
Valentin's a fine player on a power starved team with nothing going at short. With us he just adds to the problem. I'd much rather just dump Crede, but that's not gonna happen because of money, so Valentin's gotta go.

skobabe8
08-12-2004, 02:56 PM
Ditto. If kenny really goes after Carl Pavano in the offseason that pitching rotation is going to be sick, Garcia, Pavano, Buehrle, Contreras, Garland.:o:
Ooohh Kenny! You gimme these starters, me love you loooong time! :tongue:

(I would also accept Clement instead of Pavano)

owensmouth
08-12-2004, 03:07 PM
Kenny's talking to Seattle about a starter. Now isn't that exciting?

idseer
08-12-2004, 03:08 PM
this could yet become the kind of team i fell in love with back in 1956.

go sox!

soxtalker
08-12-2004, 03:08 PM
Valentin's a fine player on a power starved team with nothing going at short. With us he just adds to the problem. I'd much rather just dump Crede, but that's not gonna happen because of money, so Valentin's gotta go.
I'd really like to see KW trade Valentin in the next couple of weeks -- both for our benefit and his. We probably won't get much for him -- maybe a prospect and/or some of his salary for the rest of the year -- but something is better than nothing. And it would be nice to see Jose get a chance at contributing to a playoff team.

nodiggity59
08-12-2004, 03:11 PM
How great would it be to sign Pavano, O Perez, or R Ortiz and then Package Crede, Davis, and Diaz for Kendall with Pirates picking up half the tab.Make the call Kenny.

MRKARNO
08-12-2004, 03:12 PM
How great would it be to sign Pavano, O Perez, or R Ortiz and then Package Crede, Davis, and Diaz for Kendall with Pirates picking up half the tab.Make the call Kenny.
And then sign Troy Glaus for third base

CWSGuy406
08-12-2004, 05:48 PM
I'm surprised that Odalis Perez wasn't mentioned in the article. To me...I'm hopin' it's either Perez or Pavano. I'm not really enamored with the prospect of having Pedro on this team. He very well could disrupt any chemistry that this group of pitcher is forming.
If disrupting team chemistry mean he goes out and gives us a 3.50 ERA while being a dominant pitcher on the mound, sign me up.

I'd offer Pedro two years, 11-13 million per year. See if he bites.

Lip Man 1
08-12-2004, 07:41 PM
Pudge:

When was the last time you say Kenny directly quoted about next season? (Especially in the wake of Ozzie's recent comments?)

and if you want a top drawer pitching staff you damn well better rebuild the bullpen...putz's like Cotts, Adkins, Jackson and maybe even Politte do NOT belong in it.

Lip

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 07:48 PM
Pudge:

When was the last time you say Kenny directly quoted about next season? (Especially in the wake of Ozzie's recent comments?)

and if you want a top drawer pitching staff you damn well better rebuild the bullpen...putz's like Cotts, Adkins, Jackson and maybe even Politte do NOT belong in it.

Lip
Well Lip, cotts and Adkins are going to be in the bullpen next year so get used to it and stop complaining about it.

cubhater
08-12-2004, 08:15 PM
I'm surprised that Odalis Perez wasn't mentioned in the article. To me...I'm hopin' it's either Perez or Pavano. I'm not really enamored with the prospect of having Pedro on this team. He very well could disrupt any chemistry that this group of pitcher is forming.
KW can't metion players by name now. Tamper! Tamper!:tongue:

I'm not too keen on getting Pedro. Seems like he's too fragile nowadays (despite his complete game shutout today) and can't last more that 6 innings. However, if he's healty..........

cubhater
08-12-2004, 08:20 PM
I'm one of the few (judging by many posts) who still thinks Borchard may yet blossom. But I must admit that I don't understand the willingness to give up Reed instead of Borchard. (I suppose it is always possible that the M's weren't willing to take that choice, but it seems unlikely since the reports indicated that Crede was an alternate request from them.) It isn't so much that Borchard is struggling right now. Rather, it is the type of player that Reed is -- hitting to all fields, but less power. I'm guessing that this says something about the evaluators within the organization as well as KW.
You hit the nail on the head. Safeco's not a HR friendly park so why would the M's want Borchard? Reed's a much better fit for them.

RKMeibalane
08-12-2004, 08:50 PM
There are a few other things the Sox need to make an effort to find:

Middle-infielder:
Juan Uribe has shown that he is capable of playing second, third, or short. In the event that Jose Valentin leaves, Uribe is the logical choice to replace him. However, that still leaves the Sox with Willie Harris as his double-play partner.

Harris would make a fine pinch-runner for the Sox. I respect the effort he has put in this season, and I think he deserves to remain with the team. That said, he isn't a starter. He just doesn't have what it takes. Even taking into consideration the improvement he has shown in 2004, he still looks overmatched at the plate. If Roberto Alomar is brought back, it might be possible for them to split time there. Otherwise, this a position that needs to be upgraded.

The Sox may also need to consider moving Joe Crede. Based on what we've seen from him this season, Joe seems to have regressed since 2002. His swing is too long, and he seems unwilling to change it. Evidently, he doesn't realize that just because his swing worked in Charlotte, that doesn't mean it works in Chicago. One would think that working with Greg Walker, who helped coach him at Triple-A, would make a difference, but it appears as though Crede is more interested in hitting home runs than he is in trying to become a better all-around hitter.

Outfielder:
With Magglio Ordonez likely on his way out, the Sox need to find a suitable replacement who can play RF. Carl Everett is the obvious choice, but he needs to get himself in better shape if he wants to play everyday. I have seen little from him this season that makes me optimistic about his chances of being a reliable player for the Sox in 2005.

In a perfect world, a players like Carlos Beltran and Bobby Abreu would come off an assembly-line. Unfortunately, the Yankees appear to have the inside track to singing Beltran, and Abreu is one of the conerstones of the Phillies franchise. He is under contract for two more seasons, and unless the new manager tries to push him out, he will be in Philadelphia for at least two more years.

Catcher:
Ben Davis has surprised everyone with his improve play since joining the Pale Hose last month. He is a good fit for the pitching staff, and so the Sox should hang onto him. However, they need to find someone who can platoon with Davis, preferably a right-handed hitter (since Davis is LH). Sandy Alomar is finished, and Jamie Burke is nothing more than a third-string catcher. Teams don't win pennants with third-string catchers.

SOXSINCE'70
08-12-2004, 09:12 PM
"The South Side Pitchmen"??

Nice idea.But what about the fact that,as stated earlier in this post,Sox Park is the midwestern equivelent of Coors Field or Jacobs Field?? There are other pressing problems to adress,KW.Such as:

1.If Omar Vizquel is an FA,the Sox should take a run at him.Uribe might not be too bad at third,but as for Jose Valentin (AKA E 6),the swing and miss mentality must go.You may hit more home runs at Sox Park,but doubles,triples and singles aren't so bad either.If Vizquel is not an option,Orlando Cabrera or Edgar Rentaria might (and I say might) be.

2.The Sox late bullpen relief,like the back of The Riddler's costume,is a big questionmark.A set up man and closer would be good acquisitions.I don't trust Marte and Shingo.Marte can be very wild and the 2nd and 3rd time around the league for Shingo is giving me nightmares.

3.All good defensive teams are built on defense up the middle (meaning catcher,shortstop,third base,second base and center field).You want proof?? Look at the Godawful Twins.Maurer at C,Sox killer Corey Koskie at third,Sox killers Christian Guzman and Luis Rivas at short and second respectively,and of course,Torii (the punk) Hunter in center.The Sox,IMHO are pitiful defensively at short.They have a good fielding 3rd baseman who can't hit,a second sacker who can go 5 for 5 one game,0 for 10 the next 2 games.R.Alomar is a strong defensive 2B,but where is the offense??:dunno: And "tank Got" for Aaron Rowand in CF.That's his position.Don't change it!!

4.The big question: can KW convince JR that this is the way it's got to be and to stop treating the Sox like a small market team in a big market town??:angry: :angry:

Hold your breath till the offseason,Sox fans.
Same Sox time,Same Sox channel.
(Oops!With Comcast coming in October,the channel will change.):D: :D:

samram
08-12-2004, 09:20 PM
There are a few other things the Sox need to make an effort to find:

Middle-infielder:
Juan Uribe has shown that he is capable of playing second, third, or short. In the event that Jose Valentin leaves, Uribe is the logical choice to replace him. However, that still leaves the Sox with Willie Harris as his double-play partner.

Harris would make a fine pinch-runner for the Sox. I respect the effort he has put in this season, and I think he deserves to remain with the team. That said, he isn't a starter. He just doesn't have what it takes. Even taking into consideration the improvement he has shown in 2004, he still looks overmatched at the plate. If Roberto Alomar is brought back, it might be possible for them to split time there. Otherwise, this a position that needs to be upgraded.

The Sox may also need to consider moving Joe Crede. Based on what we've seen from him this season, Joe seems to have regressed since 2002. His swing is too long, and he seems unwilling to change it. Evidently, he doesn't realize that just because his swing worked in Charlotte, that doesn't mean it works in Chicago. One would think that working with Greg Walker, who helped coach him at Triple-A, would make a difference, but it appears as though Crede is more interested in hitting home runs than he is in trying to become a better all-around hitter.

Outfielder:
With Magglio Ordonez likely on his way out, the Sox need to find a suitable replacement who can play RF. Carl Everett is the obvious choice, but he needs to get himself in better shape if he wants to play everyday. I have seen little from him this season that makes me optimistic about his chances of being a reliable player for the Sox in 2005.

In a perfect world, a players like Carlos Beltran and Bobby Abreu would come off an assembly-line. Unfortunately, the Yankees appear to have the inside track to singing Beltran, and Abreu is one of the conerstones of the Phillies franchise. He is under contract for two more seasons, and unless the new manager tries to push him out, he will be in Philadelphia for at least two more years.

Catcher:
Ben Davis has surprised everyone with his improve play since joining the Pale Hose last month. He is a good fit for the pitching staff, and so the Sox should hang onto him. However, they need to find someone who can platoon with Davis, preferably a right-handed hitter (since Davis is LH). Sandy Alomar is finished, and Jamie Burke is nothing more than a third-string catcher. Teams don't win pennants with third-string catchers.
Good post. I think KW will add another pitcher, but they still need to field a lineup, and they will have several holes. For 2B, Tony Womack could be a solid lead-off guy, and I'm pretty sure Jerry Hairston, Jr. will be available, as will Adam Kennedy.

In the OF, a lot of people have said Frank Catalanatto, who would be decent, but David Dellucci has a higher OPS and is having a nice year for Texas. J.D. Drew would also be a nice addition, although he may be a Boras guy, which seems to be a problem. Jose Guillen should also be available, and I would love if Anaheim saw fit to trade Chone Figgins.

As for catcher, if Kendall would cost too much in trade, I would like to see Ramon Hernandez. I think San Diego will turn to Quintero next year, and Hernandez would be solid.

I think Uribe gets third if Crede's gone, and SS if he's here.

They also have to address the bullpen, and Felix Rodriguez and Scott Williamson would fit very nicely.

DumpJerry
08-12-2004, 10:18 PM
Ok, a few thoughts (I did not read the entire thread because I was getting a bit excited about the possibilities and wanted to write, so excuse me if some of this was mentioned already):

1. Perhaps we should sign Valentin. Trade him for some good players from a team that wants his home run numbers and SS experience. This way, we get something for him. But under no circumstances should be play for us next season. Another option would be to go for Nomar, but not if it costs us $$ for a starter.

2. Speaking of trades, etc. It's great that we are building a great starting rotation (I think we're almost there), but we need help in the bullpen. Politte and Cotts have been up and down in their performances this year and Adkins is, well, Adkins. Hopefully Shingo will continue to shine (closers sometimes fade faster than the concrete at the Urinal).

3. Frank will retire as a Sox. He is getting to the age where other teams will consider his best days behind him. I love the big lug, but, when was the last season where he did not take an extended trip to the DL? I'm not saying get rid of him, I'm saying that we need a Plan B for if he goes down. Mags was never a Plan B to Frank, Mags was the foil for Frank, the guy who makes sure Frank gets the pitches. If we have Frank, Paulee, Carlos and Rowand in the lineup next year, we will get respect. Rowand is not a power hitter, but has come around to show he can get hits when needed which will make him valuable for the smallball we'll be playing.

4. The starters. Buerhle, Garcia and Contreras would be my first choices if I had to build a three man rotation. Hands down. Garland is Cy Young in the first 5 innings (how many times have we seen him take a no-no that deep this year? Several times). However, after the 5th, he makes us hit the liquor cabinet. This tells me he needs some off-season conditioning to build up his stamina. Hopefully he will get into a weight training program to get an extra 45-50 quality pitches out of his arm each game. He's young, it can be done. Assuming Garland will improve next year, the "5th" starter will be the icing on the cake if it is one of the studs mentioned in the article. I say "5th" only because he will be the one who pitches the 5th game. With a starting 5 like this, there won't be any days where opposing teams will be able to send their "B" squad out against us because we have a weak starter.

Finally, I think out success this year up to the All Star break was not in the script. When the Sox hired Ozzie, they were not hiring a caretaker manager, but rather a franchise manager like a Lasorda or Torre---someone who will become so much part of the team's identity, that there is no separation of the two in people's minds. Given that, the team started to build an Ozzie team this year for next year and beyond. We have a good foundation for the effort and next year is supposed to be the real debut of Ozzie's team. 2004 is the transition from a series of caretaker managers to an Organization Manager.

I say this because the hiring of Ozzie went against the conventional wisdom. If you have a decent team, you're supposed to hire an experienced manager to tweak the team to the next level and then leave when done. Think of Dusty Baker. Remember the rumors that we were going to hire Cito Gaston last fall? Gaston is a caretaker, he would have tweaked the Sox to another 10 victories to get us to the playoffs and then leave when his job is done. This is what Baker is doing for the Flubs. By hiring someone with no prior managing experience, who was a third base coach, the Sox were looking for someone who was loyal to the team and would look at the team as a project, not a temp assignment. The team knew Ozzie's potential for the long term success of creating a dominate team which will return us to the top of Chicago baseball. Remember, while the Flubs were en route to the playoffs in 1984, we outdrew them in attendance.:cool: Or course, this is due in part to the momentum of the Winning Ugly team of 1983, but still.............

I think the hiring of Ozzie will go down as one of the 10 best moves the team has made in its history.:smile:

RKMeibalane
08-12-2004, 10:22 PM
3. Frank will retire as a Sox. He is getting to the age where other teams will consider his best days behind him. I love the big lug, but, when was the last season where he did not take an extended trip to the DL?
Frank has an option for next season at eight million dollars, so he will be here regardless of what happens to rest of the team. To answer your question about his time on the disabled list, Frank was healthy the entire 2003 season. His last two DL trips (this season and 2001) were the result of freak accidents more than anything else. He's not Ken Griffey Jr. Since he is the DH the majority of the time, there's no reason to believe that he will contnue to experience injury problems. If he hadn't been hit by that ground ball, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

MikeW
08-12-2004, 10:38 PM
If KW brings back good old fashioned 'GO' GO' Sox baseball, then I'm all for it. We will never win if we keep playing inconsistent baseball as we have the last three years. The all or nothing is not working. Pitching,speed and defense will stop prolonged losing streaks.

Flight #24
08-12-2004, 10:43 PM
You hit the nail on the head. Safeco's not a HR friendly park so why would the M's want Borchard? Reed's a much better fit for them.
I haven't seen any reports that KW said anything like "Borchard's untouchable, how about Reed?". It's more "Crede's untouchable, how about one of our OF prospects". Seattle wanted Reed.

And saying that "because they wanted Crede, they probably valued Borchard over Reed" is ludicrous. Crede's a very good defensive 3B, who's had flashes of being a good offensive player. Reed (and Borchard) are OFs, a LOT easier to find.

gosox41
08-12-2004, 10:47 PM
great ideas, but i just hope that KW follows up this all of this talk with some action. unfortunate that maggs is as good as gone
Hopefully he gets some players in here, guys that actually can get on base more then once in a great while.


Bob

jordan23ventura
08-12-2004, 11:12 PM
Blaming Maggs for the all-or-nothing Sox mentality? I would say Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede and Joe Valentin are much more responsible than Maggs. Of all those players, I think the Sox should trade Lee AND Paulie and KEEP Maggs.
What? Why open a hole at LF and 1B when you cxan open only one in RF? Paulie's D and offense won't be so easy to replace as everyone thinks. And don't forget about Lee, either. Those two, Rowand, and Willie + Uribe at the beginning of the season carried this team.

RKMeibalane
08-12-2004, 11:14 PM
Paulie's D
Uh, oh. The 3-6-3 double-play strikes once again.

jordan23ventura
08-12-2004, 11:17 PM
I haven't seen any reports that KW said anything like "Borchard's untouchable, how about Reed?". It's more "Crede's untouchable, how about one of our OF prospects". Seattle wanted Reed.

And saying that "because they wanted Crede, they probably valued Borchard over Reed" is ludicrous. Crede's a very good defensive 3B, who's had flashes of being a good offensive player. Reed (and Borchard) are OFs, a LOT easier to find.
I remember before the Garcia trade there were "reports" that Borchard was being held in higher regard, although if this is true I'm sure it was just KW trying to up his value. I have no doubt that Borchard would be the one gone in the Seattle trade if they were stupid enough to take him. Unfortunately, they have Bob Fontaine over there who knows our system very well, so he wouldn't let KW pull the wool over his eyes if he tried.

jordan23ventura
08-12-2004, 11:20 PM
Uh, oh. The 3-6-3 double-play strikes once again.
He's made some nice plays out there. I'm not saying he's a gold glover, in fact he's far from it. But still, he's much better out there then Frank defensively, and puts up much larger numbers then Gload ever would. There isn't anyone down on the farm that could replace him, so outside of moving Lee to 1B I'd say Paulie doesn't have to go.

Lip Man 1
08-13-2004, 02:06 AM
OEO:

I wouldn't bet the farm on that one pard.

Lip

Joosh
08-13-2004, 02:18 AM
Hint... you can forget about going to see home run fireworks! My only comment is that it's about damn time to try things another way.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x12-lad1.htm

LipDo we switch the Fireworks for Home Runs to All-Star defensive plays?

We could use a Defensive Play once in a while. Imagine if it happened more often?:rolleyes:

wdelaney72
08-13-2004, 08:46 AM
Valentin's a fine player on a power starved team with nothing going at short. With us he just adds to the problem. I'd much rather just dump Crede, but that's not gonna happen because of money, so Valentin's gotta go.
Valentin's defense sucks and he's an automatic out, save his few clutch HR. Hardley what I consider to be "fine player".

TornLabrum
08-13-2004, 09:09 AM
Valentin's defense sucks and he's an automatic out, save his few clutch HR. Hardley what I consider to be "fine player".
Valentin has 16 errors, 6 of them since the 10 errors he put up in the first month or so of the season. On the other hand, Uribe the other night didn't make any errors at SS, but was slow in turning two DPs which ended up being FCs. I kept thinking that with Valentin in there, the Sox would have turned two.

I won't comment on his offense this year. How can anyone justify 104 Ks?

calderon
08-13-2004, 09:48 AM
I would love it if we signed another big pitcher, How about trading Lee and Cotts to baltimore for Hairston, Bigbie and a reliever???

hold2dibber
08-13-2004, 10:14 AM
I would love it if we signed another big pitcher, How about trading Lee and Cotts to baltimore for Hairston, Bigbie and a reliever???
Is Hairston realy any better than Harris?

calderon
08-13-2004, 10:24 AM
I think he is, he's hitting .300 right now.

OEO Magglio
08-13-2004, 10:46 AM
Is Hairston realy any better than Harris?Hairston is at .313 with a .383 obp, while willie is .272 with a .363 obp.

nodiggity59
08-13-2004, 10:59 AM
Can someone remind me why the Orioles would trade Hairston? Do they have 2 2Bs or does he make a lot of money or something?

Soxfest
08-13-2004, 11:22 AM
We will see KW talked about grinders and brought in NONE, KW talks the talk he needs to walk the walk.

mdep524
08-13-2004, 11:25 AM
Can someone remind me why the Orioles would trade Hairston? Do they have 2 2Bs or does he make a lot of money or something?
Yeah, they have 2 2Bs- Hairston and Brian Roberts. Roberts is younger so I guess they are planning around him.

fuzzy_patters
08-13-2004, 11:26 AM
Can someone remind me why the Orioles would trade Hairston? Do they have 2 2Bs or does he make a lot of money or something?They have 2 2Bs. Brian Roberts has beaten out Hairston in Baltimore.

edit: I guess mdep beat me to it.

Gimm
08-13-2004, 01:05 PM
I would love it if we signed another big pitcher, How about trading Lee and Cotts to baltimore for Hairston, Bigbie and a reliever???How about not. Lee and Cotts stay. We get Hairston Jr, anyway. Hopefulyl within the next few days.

Works for me.

habibharu
08-13-2004, 01:07 PM
I would love it if we signed another big pitcher, How about trading Lee and Cotts to baltimore for Hairston, Bigbie and a reliever??? HELL NO! if you trade caballo you gotta get a HELL of alot more than larry bigbie and jerry hairston! i would expect a matt riley or kurt ainswerth at least!

hold2dibber
08-13-2004, 01:11 PM
Hairston is at .313 with a .383 obp, while willie is .272 with a .363 obp.
You're right, Hairston is having a better year. But if you compare Hairston's career stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6127 to Harris' career stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6798, you'll see that Hairston's aren't that much better. Plus, Hairston is 2 years older than Willie and has (IIRC) had problems staying healthy over his career. Plus, when Hairston was 26 (as Willie is now), they had very similar seasons (Hairston: .268 avg, .329 OBP, .705 OPS, 21 SBs in 426 ABs; Willie projected through end of the year: .272 avg, .363 OBP, .695 OPS, 19 SBs in 409 ABs). I guess if all things were equal, I'd rather have Hairston than Harris. But I'm not at all convinced that he'd be much of a upgrade, if at all (admittedly, however, that conclusion does not include any analysis of their respective defensive abilities as I know little about Hairston's glove work).

Win1ForMe
08-13-2004, 01:40 PM
You're right, Hairston is having a better year. But if you compare Hairston's career stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6127 to Harris' career stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6798, you'll see that Hairston's aren't that much better. Plus, Hairston is 2 years older than Willie and has (IIRC) had problems staying healthy over his career. Plus, when Hairston was 26 (as Willie is now), they had very similar seasons (Hairston: .268 avg, .329 OBP, .705 OPS, 21 SBs in 426 ABs; Willie projected through end of the year: .272 avg, .363 OBP, .695 OPS, 19 SBs in 409 ABs). I guess if all things were equal, I'd rather have Hairston than Harris. But I'm not at all convinced that he'd be much of a upgrade, if at all (admittedly, however, that conclusion does not include any analysis of their respective defensive abilities as I know little about Hairston's glove work).
Hairston isn't a half-player. Harris is useless against LHP so you also have to find a good right-handed backup. Plus, Hairston has been more consistent this season whereas Harris' numbers have fluctuated (May- .384, June - .182, July - .188). I'd much rather have Jerry Jr.

calderon
08-13-2004, 02:25 PM
HELL NO! if you trade caballo you gotta get a HELL of alot more than larry bigbie and jerry hairston! i would expect a matt riley or kurt ainswerth at least!
the reliever in that trade would be Ryan

Joel Perez
08-13-2004, 02:31 PM
Just a mindless wishful statement:

Lance Berkman would look damn good in a Sox uniform.

Having seen him play in Houston a couple of times, he's a switch-hitter with pop, and hits for a high average.

Just IMO- the Sox have to have balance in the lineup. Way too many right-handed hitters who are one-dimensional - to just hit the long ball.


Great article by Paul. If KW can pull this off, then good for him. He looks like that he's already gotten 3/5ths of the rotation in order, and if Jon can ever get consistency, then 4/5ths of the rotation is set. I wonder how many other teams can say that besides NYY and Oakland...if Houston ever got their acts together too with Clemens-Petitte-Oswalt-Miller, that's just as good as any.

Speed is needed, with someone who has a great eye at the plate, and one who can take a walk sometimes. Man, I wish we had one guy who can steal around 50 SBs again!

Jerome
08-13-2004, 03:05 PM
I don't like this talk of emphasis on defense and stolen bases. The reason we are playing like crap is not bad defense. It's not bad or lack of bunting. It has nothing to do with number of stolen bases.

We don't have enough high OBP guys on our team. Crede and Valentin are offensive black holes. I don't have the stats but I imagine their OBPs are right around .300. That is not good enough. I just want guys who will constitently get on base so that the big bats will drive them in.

I hate to bring BB into this, but how are the A's doing? They are not prolific base-stealers.

I don't want KW to become a moneyball GM. But I just think the offense must be addressed before defense, bunting, and stolen bases.

hold2dibber
08-13-2004, 03:36 PM
I don't like this talk of emphasis on defense and stolen bases. The reason we are playing like crap is not bad defense. It's not bad or lack of bunting. It has nothing to do with number of stolen bases.

We don't have enough high OBP guys on our team. Crede and Valentin are offensive black holes. I don't have the stats but I imagine their OBPs are right around .300. That is not good enough. I just want guys who will constitently get on base so that the big bats will drive them in.

I hate to bring BB into this, but how are the A's doing? They are not prolific base-stealers.

I don't want KW to become a moneyball GM. But I just think the offense must be addressed before defense, bunting, and stolen bases.
B-I-N-G-O

I have no interest in "small ball" - the Sox have the mashers to do huge damage when they have guys getting on base in front of the big boppers. When Harris and Uribe were lighting the world on fire, and Frank was healthy and getting on base near a .500 clip, the Sox were a juggernaut. What they need is guys to get on base - they have way too many guys who don't do so.

TornLabrum
08-13-2004, 04:05 PM
I think what's being said here is exactly what I've been calling for: good pitching combined with a balanced offense. Basically you still need the boppers, but you have to also have guys who can get on base. You get a couple of those guys in front of the boppers and suddenly those solo shots are 2- and 3-run homers.

Gimm
08-13-2004, 04:41 PM
I think what's being said here is exactly what I've been calling for: good pitching combined with a balanced offense. Basically you still need the boppers, but you have to also have guys who can get on base. You get a couple of those guys in front of the boppers and suddenly those solo shots are 2- and 3-run homers.Having a runner on base is not just the difference between a solo HR and a 2-run job.

Having a runner on also brings the defense in where a certain type of a ground-out (with bases empty) may become a hit just out of an infielder's reach.

Having a runner on negatively affects a pitcher's effectiveness by either distracting him or forcing to pitch out of the stretch, or both. So an outhewise unhittable slider may become a crush-able spinner if only because Willie Harris got a big lead off 1st.

TornLabrum
08-13-2004, 05:05 PM
Having a runner on base is not just the difference between a solo HR and a 2-run job.

Having a runner on also brings the defense in where a certain type of a ground-out (with bases empty) may become a hit just out of an infielder's reach.

Having a runner on negatively affects a pitcher's effectiveness by either distracting him or forcing to pitch out of the stretch, or both. So an outhewise unhittable slider may become a crush-able spinner if only because Willie Harris got a big lead off 1st.
Yup. Never said otherwise.

I would also add that during most of my lifetime (and this is my 50th year as a Sox fan), we've never had more than two of the following: pitching, balanced offense, defense. Ever try to milk a cow with a 2-legged stool? You're about as successful as the Sox have been at winning all these years, i.e. you fall flat on your ass.

Paulwny
08-13-2004, 05:46 PM
Yup. Never said otherwise.

I would also add that during most of my lifetime (and this is my 50th year as a Sox fan), we've never had more than two of the following: pitching, balanced offense, defense. Ever try to milk a cow with a 2-legged stool? You're about as successful as the Sox have been at winning all these years, i.e. you fall flat on your ass.
I think you'd have to agree that the 83' sox were a well balanced team. It's the only one i can think of in my 49 yrs as a sox fan.

TornLabrum
08-13-2004, 07:40 PM
I think you'd have to agree that the 83' sox were a well balanced team. It's the only one i can think of in my 49 yrs as a sox fan.
They were probably the best balanced team in my lifetime, and that includes '59. IIRC Lollar led that club in HR with something like 20. It was pitching, speed, and defense. Then Veeck went out and got a bunch of slow-footed sluggers and threw even that out of whack.

jeremyb1
08-13-2004, 08:42 PM
A pretty dumb article in my opinion. I think it's idiotic to say pitching wins, or hitting wins, or defense wins. Whatever a given team is able to assemble mose efficiently is what's going to win you games. Ladewski had an awfully odd slant on the Oakland and Florida teams. I would say that it's obvious that those teams won not because they had good pitching but because they had good pitching that also happened to be inexpensive. If the A's signed the big three via free agency, they'd have about 5 or 10 million left to fill the rest of their team and that wouldn't go very far. Also, god know the Marlins weren't shelling out big bucks to Willis, Beckett, Pavano, Burnett, and Redman.

Lip Man 1
08-13-2004, 11:49 PM
Jeremy says: "A pretty dumb article in my opinion."

Naturally... since Baseball America didn't come up with it, Billy Beane didn't co-author it and Bill James didn't give it his seal of approval!

Forget the fact that the Sox have been lousy playing station to station, swing for the fences till you drop baseball since opening day 2001...

Lip

gosox41
08-14-2004, 08:47 AM
Yup. Never said otherwise.

I would also add that during most of my lifetime (and this is my 50th year as a Sox fan), we've never had more than two of the following: pitching, balanced offense, defense. Ever try to milk a cow with a 2-legged stool? You're about as successful as the Sox have been at winning all these years, i.e. you fall flat on your ass.
I thought the 1994 team was pretty well balanced. Guys like Raines, Cora, and Johnson were the SB threats and were getting on base for Thomas, Franco, and Ventura.

Pitching wise: McDowell, Fernandez, ALvarez, and Bere made a solid top 4. Bullpen was good.

Defensively-They may have been a little weaker then teams from years ago, but pretty solid. Ventura was great. Lance Johnson covered a ton of ground. Karkovice had a cannon behind the plate. Guillen lost a step after his knee injury but was still solid.

Overall, I thought it was a pretty balanced team.


Bob

TornLabrum
08-14-2004, 09:18 AM
I thought the 1994 team was pretty well balanced. Guys like Raines, Cora, and Johnson were the SB threats and were getting on base for Thomas, Franco, and Ventura.

Pitching wise: McDowell, Fernandez, ALvarez, and Bere made a solid top 4. Bullpen was good.

Defensively-They may have been a little weaker then teams from years ago, but pretty solid. Ventura was great. Lance Johnson covered a ton of ground. Karkovice had a cannon behind the plate. Guillen lost a step after his knee injury but was still solid.

Overall, I thought it was a pretty balanced team.


Bob
Ever see Joey Cora play defense? We were at a game in Milwaukee where he fielded a ball about 40 feet away from first base and three the ball 10-15 feet down the line from the first baseman. Other than that, they weren't bad in any aspect of the game (although I would have preferred a better fifth starter than Sanderson.

Gimm
08-14-2004, 11:45 AM
A pretty dumb article in my opinion. I think it's idiotic to say pitching wins, or hitting wins, or defense wins. Whatever a given team is able to assemble mose efficiently is what's going to win you games. Ladewski had an awfully odd slant on the Oakland and Florida teams. I would say that it's obvious that those teams won not because they had good pitching but because they had good pitching that also happened to be inexpensive. If the A's signed the big three via free agency, they'd have about 5 or 10 million left to fill the rest of their team and that wouldn't go very far. Also, god know the Marlins weren't shelling out big bucks to Willis, Beckett, Pavano, Burnett, and Redman.Yep.

Get a team full of Christian Guzmans at 5 Mill, Edgar Renterias at 11, Carlos Beltrans at 16, Matt Clements at 10......when the entire payroll is under 70 Mill.....

.....and don't be suprised when said team loses 90 games.



..

Lip Man 1
08-14-2004, 12:28 PM
Hal:

Sanderson was what 9-3 that year? I'd kill to have a Sox 5th starter that good now a days!

Lip

TornLabrum
08-14-2004, 01:02 PM
Hal:

Sanderson was what 9-3 that year? I'd kill to have a Sox 5th starter that good now a days!

Lip
As I recall it, he got damned good run support that year.

batmanZoSo
08-14-2004, 02:03 PM
Valentin's defense sucks and he's an automatic out, save his few clutch HR. Hardley what I consider to be "fine player".
Valentin's defense does not suck, wake up. Stop looking at Error totals (which, by the way are a lot smaller than they used to be). Every year he has one of the highest range factors in the game and is one of the top 5 at turning double plays. His errors never cost us the game. And 7 times out of 10 he'll hit a homer in his next at bat. I reiterate what I said, he's a fine player on a team with no power. For us, he's too inconsistent, too streaky, too all-or-nothing. He just doesn't work for us if we want to retool. That doesn't mean he's bad.

PatK
08-17-2004, 10:17 AM
Wow, my first post on this forum.

After last season ended in disappointment, didn't Kenny make a bunch of promises? Weren't we a team that had too many guys that were free swingers? Guys that couldn't situationally hit? Guys that didn't get up and perform against the weaker teams in the division?

One year later, we're still the same team. Granted, Kenny's gone out and got some decent pitchers, but it seems like he hasn't made any attempts to remedy the serious problems through free agency or trades.

There was a lot of talk after last season, and very little action. As far as what's been said in that article, I'll believe it when I see it.

soxtalker
08-18-2004, 10:15 AM
Valentin's defense does not suck, wake up. Stop looking at Error totals (which, by the way are a lot smaller than they used to be). Every year he has one of the highest range factors in the game and is one of the top 5 at turning double plays. His errors never cost us the game. And 7 times out of 10 he'll hit a homer in his next at bat. I reiterate what I said, he's a fine player on a team with no power. For us, he's too inconsistent, too streaky, too all-or-nothing. He just doesn't work for us if we want to retool. That doesn't mean he's bad.
I'm not sure that I agree with the "7 out of 10" comment, but I do believe that there is a good chance that Valentin would be highly prized by a few of the play-off contenders. His HR numbers are awesome, and other teams would value that. I'm not sure what to think about his defense. The argument has been made many times that the errors are misleading, and many Sox fans are willing to buy that argument, while the media in general (local and national) doesn't. It isn't clear what other teams think, but the fact that KW felt that he had to pony up the $5M indicates that he figured that there were other teams that would.

As I've said in other posts, I hope that we either make up ground quickly or fall back quickly, so that Valentin can be traded to a contender before the 31st (if we aren't one of them).

Randar68
08-18-2004, 10:21 AM
Wow, my first post on this forum.

After last season ended in disappointment, didn't Kenny make a bunch of promises? Weren't we a team that had too many guys that were free swingers? Guys that couldn't situationally hit? Guys that didn't get up and perform against the weaker teams in the division?

One year later, we're still the same team. Granted, Kenny's gone out and got some decent pitchers, but it seems like he hasn't made any attempts to remedy the serious problems through free agency or trades.

There was a lot of talk after last season, and very little action. As far as what's been said in that article, I'll believe it when I see it.
Who was going to trade for Konerko or Thomas after last year? Wouldn't he have been crucified for trading Thomas, who is 5/10 and can veto any trade. Who does that leave? CLee? Crede looked great second half last year, why would you trade him?

Kenny has to allow the contract situations with several of these guys to work themselves out. There are a ton of SS's on the market this offseason, and Maggs likely being gone or signed to a short-term deal to prove health. Konerko entering the last year of his contract in 2005, and Lee as well (might be 2006). Kenny is entering his window of opportunity. He's got a lot of money tied-up in his rotation and still has to find a 5th starter and some bullpen help for next year. If Jose and Maggs are gone for next year, we still need to find a SS and 2B the team can coulnt on for the full season.

He's going to have to be active trading w/ the MLB roster in order to achieve the turnover he and Ozzie desire.

PatK
08-18-2004, 11:23 AM
All I'm saying is that there was a lot of talk after last season, and little done.

Based on that and what I'm hearing now, I'll believe it when I see it.

gosox41
08-18-2004, 12:41 PM
All I'm saying is that there was a lot of talk after last season, and little done.

Based on that and what I'm hearing now, I'll believe it when I see it.
KW better be active this offseason. A lot of the reason he was tied down so much last year was due to contracts that he signed players to. Hopefully he's learned from those mistakes.

But I expect a new type of team next year. Outside of Ordonez, who is virtually gone, I don't want to come into spring training with Lee, Konerko, Thomas, Crede, and Valentin to go along with Harris and Uribe again.

I want Thomas back. For the right trades, everyone else mentioned above can go.


Bob

MisterB
08-18-2004, 01:12 PM
I don't like this talk of emphasis on defense and stolen bases. The reason we are playing like crap is not bad defense. It's not bad or lack of bunting. It has nothing to do with number of stolen bases.

We don't have enough high OBP guys on our team. Crede and Valentin are offensive black holes. I don't have the stats but I imagine their OBPs are right around .300. That is not good enough. I just want guys who will constitently get on base so that the big bats will drive them in.

I hate to bring BB into this, but how are the A's doing? They are not prolific base-stealers.

I don't want KW to become a moneyball GM. But I just think the offense must be addressed before defense, bunting, and stolen bases.I agree they need more guys getting on base, but the A's offense produces less runs that we do, and has been mediocre for a couple of years now. They win because their pitching staff is arguably the best in the AL. And last I checked, bunting and SB fall under the category of 'offense'.

As I recall it, he got damned good run support that year.8-4 with an ERA over 5. I believe you're right. :D:

BTW, Sanderson and Roberto Hernandez were the only regular Sox pitchers that year with ERAs over 4...

EMel9281
08-21-2004, 11:28 AM
What about these deals for KW and the Sox?

Garland and Everett to Pittsburgh for Oliver Perez

Crede and Valentin to San Diego for Sean Burroughs

Konerko to Boston for Doug Mientkiewicz

This way we get rid of two mental cases, the second worst shortstop in MLB next to Royce Clayton, and the man of inconsistency. Then, we pick up a dominant #4 strikeout pitcher and two left-handed bats with gloves.

And, keep Maggs around for a little while longer, too.

soxtalker
08-21-2004, 11:44 AM
What about these deals for KW and the Sox?

Garland and Everett to Pittsburgh for Oliver Perez

Crede and Valentin to San Diego for Sean Burroughs

Konerko to Boston for Doug Mientkiewicz

This way we get rid of two mental cases, the second worst shortstop in MLB next to Royce Clayton, and the man of inconsistency. Then, we pick up a dominant #4 strikeout pitcher and two left-handed bats with gloves.

And, keep Maggs around for a little while longer, too.
Why would Pittsburgh want to trade for Everett? They are way out of it, and I don't see why they'd want to have him for next year.

Mientkiewicz seems like very little to get in return for Konerko. He should have very high value -- possibly the highest of our position players.

EMel9281
08-21-2004, 01:44 PM
Why would Pittsburgh want to trade for Everett? They are way out of it, and I don't see why they'd want to have him for next year.

Mientkiewicz seems like very little to get in return for Konerko. He should have very high value -- possibly the highest of our position players.
In the offseason before this year, Pittsburgh signed Mondesi, and signed him cheaply. And, due to his circurstances, he is no longer there. But, that's beside the point. Everett could be a replacement for him for the following year. He's a relatively cheap (isn't he owed something close to 2M for next year?), switch-hitting power outfielder. Everett still has a little bit left in him, but I don't really see where he would fit into this team next year. Frank returns next year, so he won't DH. And, I wouldn't want him in the OF because we have the potential to fill it with a better player, say Beltran (as I read in another thread.)

Maybe the Konerko/Mientkiewicz deal is a bit one-sided. If so, maybe we can acquire a middle reliever or Derek Lowe (?) in the deal. And, a plus for Mientkiewicz is he can play 2B. Then, we have options to go after either a 1B or 2B (preferably) in the offseason.

soxtalker
08-21-2004, 02:28 PM
In the offseason before this year, Pittsburgh signed Mondesi, and signed him cheaply. And, due to his circurstances, he is no longer there. But, that's beside the point. Everett could be a replacement for him for the following year. He's a relatively cheap (isn't he owed something close to 2M for next year?), switch-hitting power outfielder. Everett still has a little bit left in him, but I don't really see where he would fit into this team next year. Frank returns next year, so he won't DH. And, I wouldn't want him in the OF because we have the potential to fill it with a better player, say Beltran (as I read in another thread.)

Maybe the Konerko/Mientkiewicz deal is a bit one-sided. If so, maybe we can acquire a middle reliever or Derek Lowe (?) in the deal. And, a plus for Mientkiewicz is he can play 2B. Then, we have options to go after either a 1B or 2B (preferably) in the offseason.
Everett is an interesting situation. IIRC, he is the one who has an option next year, and, if so, will be an issue for the Sox if he doesn't recover. KW seems to like him, though, so perhaps he's considering Everett a back-up for Frank and OF. I agree with you on his fielding, though, from what I've seen.

Konerko is also interesting, since he should have high trade value. Unless KW gets bowled over with an offer this week (doubtful), I would think that a lot of possibilities might come his way in the off season.

SouthBendSox
08-23-2004, 10:20 PM
fire ozzie

MRKARNO
08-23-2004, 10:21 PM
fire ozzie Yeah after one year let's just cut him loose

:tomatoaward

illiniwhitesox
08-23-2004, 11:21 PM
In Paul Ladewski's column today in the Daily Southtown you get a look at the 2005 Sox. Kenny Williams tells him what he expects the team to be like.

Hint... you can forget about going to see home run fireworks! My only comment is that it's about damn time to try things another way.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x12-lad1.htm

Lip
It's great that KW is talking about getting pitching. However, we have way too many defensive holes and too many free swingers to say that we are one to two arms away from being balanced.

Being balanced means the ability to manufacture runs. You can't do this with players like Willie, Crede, Uribe, Alomar (pick whichever one you want), Gloade, Borchard and all or nothing Jose. No one can bunt or play the hit and run. We have too many free-swingers and a pervasive lack of discipline at the plate.

Defensively, our DP combination does not exactly strike fear in the opposition. Everytime Jose tries to catch a pop-up, it reminds me of Peter Boyle dancing to "Putting on the Ritz" in Young Frankenstein. CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK

It's a fantasy baseball lineup and not a baseball team. Blow it up and rebuild!

JKryl
08-30-2004, 03:19 PM
Pedro Martinez? Someone actually thinks the Sox will put out the money for Pedro Martinez? Maybe in a fantasy league, but I'll only believe it when I see him in uniform. Of course with Mags gone next year that frees up $10 million, hmmm... We're already a half way there.:bandance:

bigfoot
08-30-2004, 04:10 PM
Can't Scott Boras be convinced to buy the White Sox from JR, and bring Adrian Beltre and Carlos Beltran with him?

hold2dibber
08-30-2004, 05:21 PM
What about these deals for KW and the Sox?

Garland and Everett to Pittsburgh for Oliver Perez

Crede and Valentin to San Diego for Sean Burroughs

Konerko to Boston for Doug Mientkiewicz
There is no way in all hell Pittsburgh would trade one of the best young pitchers in all of baseball, who is dirt cheap and their exclusive property for like 5 more years, for Garland (who isn't nearly as good as Perez, is older, is much more expensive and is only a year or two away from free agency) and Everett, who is okay, but not going to be around the next time Pittsburgh is any good (cuz he's too old).

And I can't see San Diego making that trade either. Crede (unlike Burroughs) hasn't gotten it together and they don't really need Valentin - Greene is young and good and Valentin is a free agent after this year.

santo=dorf
08-30-2004, 05:38 PM
Jeremy says: "A pretty dumb article in my opinion."

Naturally... since Baseball America didn't come up with it, Billy Beane didn't co-author it and Bill James didn't give it his seal of approval!

Lip
:rolling: :roflmao: :worship:

So true.

TwinsGeek
09-05-2004, 01:16 AM
I obviously don't know this team like you guys, but my perception is that KW has to be pretty careful in moves he makes, with Konerko, Lee and Buehrle getting expensive, and big contracts going to Contreras and Garcia. I presume his salary level won't exceed the $75M or so he committed this year. I further presume that some of you super fans can fill out these names and expected salaries, and get some idea of whether KW has any money to spend in the offseason, even if Magglio is gone....

Role-Name-Salary ($M)
ST1-Buehrle-?
ST2-Garcia -8
ST3-Contreras-7
ST4-Garland-
ST5-

CL
Setup RH
Setup LH
MR
MR
LR

C
1B- Konerko
2B-Uribe
SS
3B
LF-C Lee
CF
RF
DH-Thomas

Bckp C
Bckp MI
4th OF
5th OF
Other