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misty60481
08-12-2004, 08:29 AM
I dont think we are going to ever be anything but a runner up as long as JR holds the purse strings. I know no other team could expect to win losing there best 2 hitters but I dont think they would be as pitiful as we have been, 1st when we needed a new GM he hired KW instead of a proven GM and let KW learn under him then this year I think he hired Ozzie because he was cheapest he could get, I still think Oz will be a good manager but he isnt ready yet, Icall it cheapness, JR filled our head with all this BS about " enthusiasm " it takes a hell of a lot more than enthusiasm to win, he knows most of core of players are getting up in years why not hire a veteran for 2 years and let Ozzie be a bench coach and earn his apprenticeship that way, because it saved JR a few $$$, I cant help being mad I have been SOX fan for 60 years and In feel cheated, meanwhile JR is sitting by his pool watching reruns of Sopranos knowing he already has a profit for the year----

Hangar18
08-12-2004, 09:29 AM
it will start from the TOP. JR's Foolish mindset of Cutting Corners has hurt
this team time and again. Mind you, he doled out the 5Mill to get Joe Borchard signed, and I dont have a problem with that, he should be commended. You have to take chances like that. Joltin Joe could still
wind up being a very good player in a few years (a late bloomer). Its that
thinking that will have us rise to the top ........ but to cut corners everywhere
else? ridiculous. We told you so Jerry, but you didnt listen.......again.

gosox41
08-12-2004, 11:06 AM
I dont think we are going to ever be anything but a runner up as long as JR holds the purse strings. I know no other team could expect to win losing there best 2 hitters but I dont think they would be as pitiful as we have been, 1st when we needed a new GM he hired KW instead of a proven GM and let KW learn under him then this year I think he hired Ozzie because he was cheapest he could get, I still think Oz will be a good manager but he isnt ready yet, Icall it cheapness, JR filled our head with all this BS about " enthusiasm " it takes a hell of a lot more than enthusiasm to win, he knows most of core of players are getting up in years why not hire a veteran for 2 years and let Ozzie be a bench coach and earn his apprenticeship that way, because it saved JR a few $$$, I cant help being mad I have been SOX fan for 60 years and In feel cheated, meanwhile JR is sitting by his pool watching reruns of Sopranos knowing he already has a profit for the year----
Here we go again. Another rant without any proof. How do you know JR shows a profit?

Also, for all you people who claim JR is cheap try looking at it from a different angle: This team can't win the weakest division in baseball even though it spends the most money of any team in that division. And yes I'm talking about this year and all the holes this team has as well as 2001-2003. They consistently outspend these other teams. They play an unbalanced schedule. Based on that logic the Sox should be eating up the division because they spend less money.

The problem is bigger then money in this situation. Sure spending a ton may make it easier to win, but I have a gut feeling that all you people will always think JR is resting on his profits no matter how much money he spends.

Also, one final question. Walk up attendance has dropped this week because of the team's poor play. All those complaining about JR not supporting this team, are you still going to games or are you just complaining about facts you can't even get right?



Bob

WSox8404
08-12-2004, 11:15 AM
Here we go again. Another rant without any proof. How do you know JR shows a profit?

Also, for all you people who claim JR is cheap try looking at it from a different angle: This team can't win the weakest division in baseball even though it spends the most money of any team in that division. And yes I'm talking about this year and all the holes this team has as well as 2001-2003. They consistently outspend these other teams. They play an unbalanced schedule. Based on that logic the Sox should be eating up the division because they spend less money.

The problem is bigger then money in this situation. Sure spending a ton may make it easier to win, but I have a gut feeling that all you people will always think JR is resting on his profits no matter how much money he spends.

Also, one final question. Walk up attendance has dropped this week because of the team's poor play. All those complaining about JR not supporting this team, are you still going to games or are you just complaining about facts you can't even get right?



Bob
Then you know what??? He should sell the team. If this is all he is willing to put into the team, then it is time to say good bye. If he isn't making money, which he may not be, I dont know, then sell. Because if he isn't making any money that is one thing. But we are not getting anywhere with him at the helm. If this is all he has to put into it, just leave.

gosox41
08-12-2004, 11:18 AM
Then you know what??? He should sell the team. If this is all he is willing to put into the team, then it is time to say good bye. If he isn't making money, which he may not be, I dont know, then sell. Because if he isn't making any money that is one thing. But we are not getting anywhere with him at the helm. If this is all he has to put into it, just leave.
I agree. But he wants to win a World Series. He also is probably waiting for the right time to sell.

At least you're not going to be like some here and start a 'JR is getting older so he is that much closer to dropping dead' thread.


Pretty sad when people start wishing death on someone over a baseball game.


Bob

bobj4400
08-12-2004, 11:22 AM
Also, one final question. Walk up attendance has dropped this week because of the team's poor play. All those complaining about JR not supporting this team, are you still going to games or are you just complaining about facts you can't even get right?



Bob
Over 30,000 on Monday night and the weather was crappy on Tuesday and Wednesday...not sure how the weekend attendance was though. Saturday looked to be pretty close to a sell out on television though.

Bad weather will always kill the walk up crowd, but JR's bad teams have killed the season ticket holder base. So JR is caught over a barrell having to hope for BOTH a competitive team and good weather to have any chance at good attendance numbers.

Dan H
08-12-2004, 11:26 AM
Here we go again. Another rant without any proof. How do you know JR shows a profit?

Also, for all you people who claim JR is cheap try looking at it from a different angle: This team can't win the weakest division in baseball even though it spends the most money of any team in that division. And yes I'm talking about this year and all the holes this team has as well as 2001-2003. They consistently outspend these other teams. They play an unbalanced schedule. Based on that logic the Sox should be eating up the division because they spend less money.

The problem is bigger then money in this situation. Sure spending a ton may make it easier to win, but I have a gut feeling that all you people will always think JR is resting on his profits no matter how much money he spends.

Also, one final question. Walk up attendance has dropped this week because of the team's poor play. All those complaining about JR not supporting this team, are you still going to games or are you just complaining about facts you can't even get right?



Bob
Saying the Sox outspend small market teams like Minnesota, Kansas City and Detroit is not saying much. I don't know where the Sox are budget wise in the whole league, but I do know the Sox had no one reliable player to be a fifth starter when the season began, and took gambles on other players that didn't work out. The fact is that the team sat on its hands during the off season and we are seeing the results of that short sighted thinking.

As far as attendance, the Sox had some good crowds for the Cleveland series only to look pathetic. And the White Sox profit situation? Don't tell me the ownership is losing money. If they were, they would have sold a long time ago or at least tried to do so.

The best way to end this debate is for the team to at least appear in a World Series. That would demonstrate that money was not only spent but spent well. Reinsdorf has had the team for nearly a quarter of a century. Don't you think it is about time he produced instead of just blaming the fans?

mcfish
08-12-2004, 11:32 AM
Here's some proof - this year's total payroll for the AL Central. I'm not sure, but I don't think this even includes salaries from Garcia, Everett, Contreras, or Alomar.

Sox - $ 65,212,500
Twins - $ 53,585,000
Injuns - $ 34,319,300
Tigers - $ 46,832,000
Royals - $ 47,609,000

JR already throws out $12 million more than the rest of the division and they can't even win that. Why spend more until they start to spend as much as they do better?

idseer
08-12-2004, 11:33 AM
Reinsdorf has had the team for nearly a quarter of a century. Don't you think it is about time he produced instead of just blaming the fans?
think about that for a minute. what are the odds the sox don't win the al championship at least once?
what are the odds they appear only once in 87 years?

soxtalker
08-12-2004, 11:41 AM
Saying the Sox outspend small market teams like Minnesota, Kansas City and Detroit is not saying much. I don't know where the Sox are budget wise in the whole league, but I do know the Sox had no one reliable player to be a fifth starter when the season began, and took gambles on other players that didn't work out. The fact is that the team sat on its hands during the off season and we are seeing the results of that short sighted thinking.
...
But what it does indicate is that the major problem may not be how much they spend; it is how they spend their money. There have been other threads recently discussing the poor production from our minor league system, for example. Whether it is poor coaching or draft selection at the minor league level or some bad trades or coaching at the major league level, the primary problem appears to be mistakes made by management.

Would more money help? Sure. The Yankees make plenty of (management) mistakes, but they can rebound from them much more easily because of their deep pockets. We've taken a major blow this year with the loss of Maggs and Frank. Having more money like the Yankees would have allowed us to buy some more players. Having a smarter organization with some well-chosen and well-developed players in the minor leagues would also have helped.

owensmouth
08-12-2004, 11:42 AM
Then you know what??? He should sell the team. If this is all he is willing to put into the team, then it is time to say good bye. If he isn't making money, which he may not be, I dont know, then sell. Because if he isn't making any money that is one thing. But we are not getting anywhere with him at the helm. If this is all he has to put into it, just leave.
Make him an offer.

voodoochile
08-12-2004, 11:51 AM
Here we go again. Another rant without any proof. How do you know JR shows a profit?


Bob
Forbes Magazine lists the Sox as the second most profitable team last year with a profit of $12M. That's how we know, Bob...

BainesHOF
08-12-2004, 11:56 AM
The Sox have not won ONE home playoff game in Reinsdorf's 23-plus seasons of owning the team.

Think about that.

Flight #24
08-12-2004, 11:57 AM
Forbes Magazine lists the Sox as the second most profitable team last year with a profit of $12M. That's how we know, Bob...Profit from last year = $12mil, increase in payroll from 2003-2004 = $10mil (roughly). Seems like JR is doing what he say - turning last years profits into this years payroll. It also jives with the historical data that show a correlation between Yr N's attendance and Yr N+1's payroll.

It would be interesting to see Forbes' historical data on team profitability and compare that to changes in payroll year-year.

EDIT: I'm not saying that this proves they're not making money since there are all kinds of ways to hide profits. But the raw available data does seem to fit JR's claim that available $$$ go onto the field (but not more).

Lip Man 1
08-12-2004, 11:59 AM
Dan:

Agree 100% with your statements and Voodoo's comments are also accurate.

As far as not spending money wisely there is also some truth to that. Remember Uncle Jerry has NEVER hired a G.M. or a field manager with previous experience in those positions for another major league team.

Another example of 'cutting corners,' that Hangar spoke of. And in this case experiments like "Hawk" Harrelson who Uncle Jerry admitted he talked him into taking the job, did nothing but set the franchise back years.

But changes are coming read Paul Ladewski's column in the Daily Southtown.

Lip

Baby Fisk
08-12-2004, 12:02 PM
Dan:

Remember Uncle Jerry has NEVER hired a G.M. or a field manager with previous experience in those positions for another major league team.

But changes are coming read Paul Ladewski's column in the Daily Southtown.

Lip
Wow. I never realized that about our GMs. :(:

Any chance you could provide a link to the article mentioned?

owensmouth
08-12-2004, 12:28 PM
The thing that I keep finding interesting about all this "JR is cheap" argument is that the KW keeps going out and spending more of his money on players.

Buying players is the most expensive way to build a team. 15 million to buy a center fielder rather than develop one through the team's minor league system? Another 9 million for a pitcher instead of drafting, training and developing one?

Part of the Sox problem is the Cubs. Their recent success has put even more pressure on the White Sox to produce. And Sox fans are unlike Cubs fans, who will show up at Wrigley if it's raining, snowing, winning or losing.

Part of the problem is KW, who wants to keep acquiring guys he played with or against, even if they are now brittle and beyond their era.

Trading youth for experience makes you older, but not necessarily any better.

If the Sox want to go out and get a fifth proven starter, that's fine.

If they retain Uribe, Crede, Willie and or Jose then it'll be more of the same next year, admittedly with lower earned run averages. Keeping players who go for months with batting averages below .200 only guarantees frustration.

Remember all those solo homers? The fault is not Frank, Magglio, Carlos, or Paulie. It is the fault of Uribe, Crede, Willie, Sandy and whoever else that was unable to put himself on base before the guns came up to bat.

steff
08-12-2004, 12:46 PM
Then you know what??? He should sell the team. If this is all he is willing to put into the team, then it is time to say good bye. If he isn't making money, which he may not be, I dont know, then sell. Because if he isn't making any money that is one thing. But we are not getting anywhere with him at the helm. If this is all he has to put into it, just leave.

I tell you what.... Why don't YOU tell your owner contact to gather up all the rest of the lemmings and approve the sale of the team...? Jerry does NOT own the Sox. And Jerry ALONE can not SELL the Sox. Jerry ALONE does NOT set the Sox payroll. Jerry ALONE does NOT make decisions regarding which players to pay what to.

steff
08-12-2004, 12:47 PM
Forbes Magazine lists the Sox as the second most profitable team last year with a profit of $12M. That's how we know, Bob...


Well geez Voodoo.. why'd you have to go and toss facts in there.. ?? :rolleyes:

Man Soo Lee
08-12-2004, 01:54 PM
Any chance you could provide a link to the article mentioned?
Here (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x12-lad1.htm) it is.

ondafarm
08-12-2004, 01:55 PM
I dont think we are going to ever be anything but a runner up as long as JR holds the purse strings. I know no other team could expect to win losing there best 2 hitters but I dont think they would be as pitiful as we have been, 1st when we needed a new GM he hired KW instead of a proven GM and let KW learn under him then this year I think he hired Ozzie because he was cheapest he could get, I still think Oz will be a good manager but he isnt ready yet, Icall it cheapness, JR filled our head with all this BS about " enthusiasm " it takes a hell of a lot more than enthusiasm to win, he knows most of core of players are getting up in years why not hire a veteran for 2 years and let Ozzie be a bench coach and earn his apprenticeship that way, because it saved JR a few $$$, I cant help being mad I have been SOX fan for 60 years and In feel cheated, meanwhile JR is sitting by his pool watching reruns of Sopranos knowing he already has a profit for the year----
Even the bridesmaids deserve to wear decent dresses.

KingXerxes
08-12-2004, 01:59 PM
Here is my question.

With the signing of Garcia, and the acquisition of Contreras, it looks as though the White Sox have shored up at least their top three starters for next year, but how much salary are these three eating up?

Clearly they are now paying Buhrle, Garcia and Contreras a lot more than they were paying Buhrle, Schoenweiss and Loaiza. If Reinsdorf sticks to some sort of self-imposed budget again next year, even assuming Ordonez goes, isn't a lot of his present salary already spoken for by the two new pitchers?

I wonder how much Reinsdorf will spend in order to fill the other holes on this club.

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 02:05 PM
Here is my question.

With the signing of Garcia, and the acquisition of Contreras, it looks as though the White Sox have shored up at least their top three starters for next year, but how much salary are these three eating up?

Clearly they are now paying Buhrle, Garcia and Contreras a lot more than they were paying Buhrle, Schoenweiss and Loaiza. If Reinsdorf sticks to some sort of self-imposed budget again next year, even assuming Ordonez goes, isn't a lot of his present salary already spoken for by the two new pitchers?

I wonder how much Reinsdorf will spend in order to fill the other holes on this club.Remember King, Jose will most likely be gone so that's 5 mill, Koch comes off the books that's 6 mill, and I expect either Pauly or Carlos will be traded so that's right around 8 mil for either player so that's a lot of money off the books. Plus if you trade either Pauly or Carlos you can probably fill a couple hole with either player.

Mohoney
08-12-2004, 02:13 PM
Does anyone here know the exact percentage of the team that Reinsdorf owns?

This team is divided into several chunks, so I don't know how much blame can be placed on Reinsdorf alone.

If anybody knows the exact breakdown, please post it.

MisterB
08-12-2004, 02:19 PM
Here is my question.

With the signing of Garcia, and the acquisition of Contreras, it looks as though the White Sox have shored up at least their top three starters for next year, but how much salary are these three eating up?

Clearly they are now paying Buhrle, Garcia and Contreras a lot more than they were paying Buhrle, Schoenweiss and Loaiza. If Reinsdorf sticks to some sort of self-imposed budget again next year, even assuming Ordonez goes, isn't a lot of his present salary already spoken for by the two new pitchers?

I wonder how much Reinsdorf will spend in order to fill the other holes on this club.
I believe it's Garcia $8M, Buehrle $5.5M and Contreras c. $6M (depending on how they spread the cash recieved from the Yanks) so that's $19.5M. Add Garland, who'll make upwards of about $3M in arbitration and you got almost $23M on 4/5ths of the rotation.

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 03:18 PM
Remember Uncle Jerry has NEVER hired a G.M. or a field manager with previous experience in those positions for another major league team.
Reinsdorf hired Jim Fregosi (1986) who had previously managed the Angels (1978-81) and Jeff Torborg (1989) who had previously managed the Indians (1977-79).

iwannago
08-12-2004, 03:30 PM
How much faith can be put into a sports article in the Southtown? When I lived in Chicago the paper was a rag. Has the Southtown improved?

Also, how many times have we heard about KW's plans? I think its time to put up or shutup.

nitetrain8601
08-12-2004, 03:59 PM
I tell you what.... Why don't YOU tell your owner contact to gather up all the rest of the lemmings and approve the sale of the team...? Jerry does NOT own the Sox. And Jerry ALONE can not SELL the Sox. Jerry ALONE does NOT set the Sox payroll. Jerry ALONE does NOT make decisions regarding which players to pay what to.
Amen. Now shut up people. He doesn't own the whole team. It's divided. Also JR & company has loosened up the wallet. Shut up people, especially those of you who don't go to the park. When the team is winning, it's not because of JR, when they're losing, it's all his fault. Go figure. You guys sound like whining babies.

steff
08-12-2004, 04:39 PM
Does anyone here know the exact percentage of the team that Reinsdorf owns?

This team is divided into several chunks, so I don't know how much blame can be placed on Reinsdorf alone.

If anybody knows the exact breakdown, please post it.


Just under 5% share.

Baby Fisk
08-12-2004, 04:42 PM
Just under 5% share.
That seems incredibly small. How does he exist as the figurehead of ownership with such a tiny share?

Hangar18
08-12-2004, 06:05 PM
I agree. But he wants to win a World Series. He also is probably waiting for the right time to sell.

At least you're not going to be like some here and start a 'JR is getting older so he is that much closer to dropping dead' thread.


Pretty sad when people start wishing death on someone over a baseball game.


Bob
For the record, once again, Reminding everyone that Uncle Jerry is getting Older and that its a Proven Fact (I have the data if you want me to bust it out)
that Noone can live Forever, is NOT wishing death on anyone. If I said "I wish uncle jerry would die by _______ (insert method here) THAT
would clearly be wishing something bad on someone. However, Im
not and its my way of telling everyone that this guy isnt going anywhere
until he does indeed drop dead. THEN, only then, will things change.

I do agree with your assertion. Jerry wants to win a world series, he just isnt interested in doing anything about it.

steff
08-12-2004, 06:22 PM
That seems incredibly small. How does he exist as the figurehead of ownership with such a tiny share?


He doesn't. He's simply the chairman of the board. He's never claimed to be the owner.

Jurr
08-12-2004, 06:23 PM
They Tried To Get Walker And Delgado But Couldn't. The Guys Wouldn't Waive Their No Trade Clause. The Sox Went After Randy Johnson, But Couldn't Get Him, Either. Do You Know The Contracts That Those Three Names Have??? Biiiig Dollars.

They Just Picked Up Contreras. Have You Seen His Contract?

They Signed Garcia.

They Are Not Cheaping Out On Us. Get A Clue.

steff
08-12-2004, 06:23 PM
For the record, once again, Reminding everyone that Uncle Jerry is getting Older and that its a Proven Fact (I have the data if you want me to bust it out)
that Noone can live Forever, is NOT wishing death on anyone. If I said "I wish uncle jerry would die by _______ (insert method here) THAT
would clearly be wishing something bad on someone. However, Im
not and its my way of telling everyone that this guy isnt going anywhere
until he does indeed drop dead. THEN, only then, will things change.

I do agree with your assertion. Jerry wants to win a world series, he just isnt interested in doing anything about it.
And the proven fact remains that you don't know anything about what Jerry wants or tries to do.

MRKARNO
08-12-2004, 06:25 PM
They Tried To Get Walker And Delgado But Couldn't. The Guys Wouldn't Waive Their No Trade Clause. The Sox Went After Randy Johnson, But Couldn't Get Him, Either. Do You Know The Contracts That Those Three Names Have??? Biiiig Dollars.

They Just Picked Up Contreras. Have You Seen His Contract?

They Signed Garcia.

They Are Not Cheaping Out On Us. Get A Clue.
The better arguement is that the reason we lost so many games early and had to be in this situation in the first place is because JR and co. were cheap in the offseason by not shoring up the bullpen and not acquiring a fifth starter.

Jurr
08-12-2004, 06:42 PM
The better arguement is that the reason we lost so many games early and had to be in this situation in the first place is because JR and co. were cheap in the offseason by not shoring up the bullpen and not acquiring a fifth starter.
I honestly don't think that the expectations going into this season were to win the world series. I really don't. The only team who is financially able to make that assumption is the Yankees or the Red Sox. Other teams are built on two, three, or five year plans. This new plan started with the hiring of Ozzie. The fact that this team played well (when healthy) for the amount of time it did says a lot about where this team is headed. So did the dismal play of some noted guys this other part of the year.

Jose needs to go. Inconsistent bat and inconsistent glove. Gone. Crede....learn to hit. Gone. That's a positive thing for this plan.

Now, you look at 2005. Year two of the plan. We've learned the parts that need fixin'. Every team has a hole or two. Even the Yankees. It's a part of the game. So, what do we have?

1. A pretty darn good starting rotation, that would be dynamite with the addition of one more reliable arm. Not expensive, but reliable.
2. A good closer and a good setup guy.
3. A proven (and fired up) guy that will be back next year in Frank.
4. PK and Lee, who are reliable enough to produce if they can get pitched to (need protection please)
5. A young hitter with a good glove. (Uribe)
6. A catcher that could become great (Davis)
7. A young outfielder that personifies hard work and hustle.

That's a pretty good way to start. Konerko's glove is good, as is Lee's (not great, but alot better)...Uribe, Alomar (should be kept for a year longer), and Rowand are stellar gloves. Now, try to fill in the holes with some guys who can hit for average, and this team changes into a pitching, defense, and non-station to station team. I like the idea of it, and that's the plan. Sounds good to me.

Lip Man 1
08-12-2004, 07:33 PM
Hal:

You're correct...brain cramp. I amend my statement to say he has never hired any experienced G.M.'s and hasn't hired an experienced field manager since the late 80's. (That's still a LONG time ago...)

Lip

Gimm
08-12-2004, 09:22 PM
.They Tried To Get Walker And Delgado But Couldn't. The Guys Wouldn't Waive Their No Trade Clause. The Sox Went After Randy Johnson, But Couldn't Get Him, Either. Do You Know The Contracts That Those Three Names Have??? Biiiig Dollars
Yeah right. :rolleyes:


Step 1. Make a laughable nominal offer.
Step 2. Get a resounding "No!" answer
Step 3. Tell the fanbase, "aww shucks, we tried"


The payroll is roughly 68 Mill. Most likely 8-10 Mill overbudget. I doubt the ownership will ok further spending no matter how much the offense needs it - with the team 5 games out, it wouldn't be, um, "prudent". Or something to that effect.

Flight #24
08-12-2004, 10:08 PM
Yeah right. :rolleyes:


Step 1. Make a laughable nominal offer.
Step 2. Get a resounding "No!" answer
Step 3. Tell the fanbase, "aww shucks, we tried"


The payroll is roughly 68 Mill. Most likely 8-10 Mill overbudget. I doubt the ownership will ok further spending no matter how much the offense needs it - with the team 5 games out, it wouldn't be, um, "prudent". Or something to that effect.

Sure, if you want to ignore the fact that they had a deal in place to get Delgado until he said no.......or that the breaker in getting Walker was supposedly him, not the ability to strike a deal with the Rockies.

Gimm
08-12-2004, 10:18 PM
Hal:

hasn't hired an experienced field manager since the late 80's. (That's still a LONG time ago...)

Lip
See, incompetent/inexperienced managers don't scare me as much as incompetent/inexperienced farm directors, scouts and minor league coaches do.

It's much easier to manage Roy Oswalt or Mike Piazza than it is to FIND/DEVELOP Roy Oswalt or Mike Piazza.

And given our payroll limitations, the need for a great farm system is that much greater. Obviously.

Gimm
08-12-2004, 10:24 PM
Sure, if you want to ignore the fact that they had a deal in place to get Delgado until he said no.......or that the breaker in getting Walker was supposedly him, not the ability to strike a deal with the Rockies.Well, if it was REPORTED that the deal with the Blue Jays/Rockies was as good as struck, then it must be true....:rolleyes:

Flight #24
08-12-2004, 10:41 PM
Well, if it was REPORTED that the deal with the Blue Jays/Rockies was as good as struck, then it must be true....:rolleyes:
I'd say it's more likely to be true than that they DIDN'T have a deal in place......

gosox41
08-12-2004, 10:52 PM
Saying the Sox outspend small market teams like Minnesota, Kansas City and Detroit is not saying much. I don't know where the Sox are budget wise in the whole league, but I do know the Sox had no one reliable player to be a fifth starter when the season began, and took gambles on other players that didn't work out. The fact is that the team sat on its hands during the off season and we are seeing the results of that short sighted thinking.

As far as attendance, the Sox had some good crowds for the Cleveland series only to look pathetic. And the White Sox profit situation? Don't tell me the ownership is losing money. If they were, they would have sold a long time ago or at least tried to do so.

The best way to end this debate is for the team to at least appear in a World Series. That would demonstrate that money was not only spent but spent well. Reinsdorf has had the team for nearly a quarter of a century. Don't you think it is about time he produced instead of just blaming the fans?
I think you're agreeing with me. We did outspend KC, Minn, Cle, and Det. for 4 straight years and have zero division titles to show. Sounds like hte blame should be on KW.

As for saying JR is losing money I know what I know. He operates this team with the goal of winning and the hopes or breaking even. He doesn't set himself up to take any big losses as he has been pretty accurate projecting attendance and so forth, but any profits are negligible and reinvested in the team.


Bob

gosox41
08-12-2004, 10:54 PM
Forbes Magazine lists the Sox as the second most profitable team last year with a profit of $12M. That's how we know, Bob...
Has Forbes seen the books. It's convenient to use them for their analysis because it's probably the only thing out there. But the same people who believe what Forbes, the media company says, talk about unfair and biased coverage in the Sun Times and Trib. Which is it?


Bob

gosox41
08-12-2004, 10:56 PM
For the record, once again, Reminding everyone that Uncle Jerry is getting Older and that its a Proven Fact (I have the data if you want me to bust it out)
that Noone can live Forever, is NOT wishing death on anyone. If I said "I wish uncle jerry would die by _______ (insert method here) THAT
would clearly be wishing something bad on someone. However, Im
not and its my way of telling everyone that this guy isnt going anywhere
until he does indeed drop dead. THEN, only then, will things change.

I do agree with your assertion. Jerry wants to win a world series, he just isnt interested in doing anything about it.
But people are wishing for his demise. Why bring it up at all?


Bob

Gimm
08-12-2004, 11:37 PM
I'd say it's more likely to be true than that they DIDN'T have a deal in place......What are basing this on? Chairman's spending history? Pre-season payroll projections? Some beat reporter overhearing stuff?

The payroll is roughly 68 Mill. Arguable 5-8 Mill overbudget.

I could maybe see JR and his partners begrudgingly approving additional expenditures if the Sox were 5-7 games in 1st place as the deadline rolled around. Maybe.

But as things stand now? I'll believe it when I see it. And I sure'd like to see it. :bandance:

voodoochile
08-12-2004, 11:40 PM
Has Forbes seen the books. It's convenient to use them for their analysis because it's probably the only thing out there. But the same people who believe what Forbes, the media company says, talk about unfair and biased coverage in the Sun Times and Trib. Which is it?


BobI don't think the Sun-Times is biased. I think the Windsock Moronotti is just that. Other than that I have no problem with their coverage.

Anyone who doesn't think the Tribune has at least an unspoken ajenda is deluding themselves, IMO. It is in that companies interests to see the flubbies do well. I see it more as a pro-flubbie thing than an anti-White Sox thing, personally, and when I lived in Chicago, I regularly paid for the paper.

I would like for anyone to give me at least some reason to believe that Forbes has an ajenda against JR. I'll even take a good theory on it. I love a good conspiracy... :D:

RKMeibalane
08-12-2004, 11:48 PM
I would like for anyone to give me at least some reason to believe that Forbes has an ajenda against JR. I'll even take a good theory on it. I love a good conspiracy... :D:
I don't have a conspiracy theory for you, but I have come warn you. It's August again, and that means the return of the "Frank Troll" is upon us. The infamous bc2k will be making his return to WSI within the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see what he has to say. :smile:

MRKARNO
08-13-2004, 12:09 AM
I honestly don't think that the expectations going into this season were to win the world series. I really don't. The only team who is financially able to make that assumption is the Yankees or the Red Sox. Other teams are built on two, three, or five year plans. This new plan started with the hiring of Ozzie. The fact that this team played well (when healthy) for the amount of time it did says a lot about where this team is headed. So did the dismal play of some noted guys this other part of the year.

Jose needs to go. Inconsistent bat and inconsistent glove. Gone. Crede....learn to hit. Gone. That's a positive thing for this plan.

Now, you look at 2005. Year two of the plan. We've learned the parts that need fixin'. Every team has a hole or two. Even the Yankees. It's a part of the game. So, what do we have?

1. A pretty darn good starting rotation, that would be dynamite with the addition of one more reliable arm. Not expensive, but reliable.
2. A good closer and a good setup guy.
3. A proven (and fired up) guy that will be back next year in Frank.
4. PK and Lee, who are reliable enough to produce if they can get pitched to (need protection please)
5. A young hitter with a good glove. (Uribe)
6. A catcher that could become great (Davis)
7. A young outfielder that personifies hard work and hustle.

That's a pretty good way to start. Konerko's glove is good, as is Lee's (not great, but alot better)...Uribe, Alomar (should be kept for a year longer), and Rowand are stellar gloves. Now, try to fill in the holes with some guys who can hit for average, and this team changes into a pitching, defense, and non-station to station team. I like the idea of it, and that's the plan. Sounds good to me.
That is definately a good way to start. My formula for success includes acquiring a decent to top notch starter and adding 2 proven bullpen arms. With the lineup we have now, an improved rotation and an improved bullpen, we have the chance to win the World Series. We're really not all that far away and potentially having Brian Anderson the second half of next year might help a lot too in a Miguel Cabrera kind of way (I'm not saying that he's the second coming of Miguel Cabrera, but he might be, you never know). We can go with a PK/Harris/Uribe/Crede infield if we improved our pitching, though it might be a good idea to pick up a better hitter for 2B or 3B. But this team + Odalis Perez would be a playoff team and this team + Pedro Martinez is easily a World Series contender

Gimm
08-13-2004, 12:10 AM
I don't have a conspiracy theory for you, but I have come warn you. It's August again, and that means the return of the "Frank Troll" is upon us. The infamous bc2k will be making his return to WSI within the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see what he has to say. :smile:
You mean Big_Hurt391? Did anyone ever buy his tapes?

ClaudelSleptHere
08-13-2004, 01:02 AM
Amen. Now shut up people. He doesn't own the whole team. It's divided. Also JR & company has loosened up the wallet. Shut up people, especially those of you who don't go to the park. When the team is winning, it's not because of JR, when they're losing, it's all his fault. Go figure. You guys sound like whining babies.

How many games do I have to go to before I can complain about some of the moves being made? I live out of town and have to plan my schedule in advance.

owensmouth
08-13-2004, 02:12 AM
For the record, once again, Reminding everyone that Uncle Jerry is getting Older and that its a Proven Fact (I have the data if you want me to bust it out)
that Noone can live Forever, is NOT wishing death on anyone. If I said "I wish uncle jerry would die by _______ (insert method here) THAT
would clearly be wishing something bad on someone. However, Im
not and its my way of telling everyone that this guy isnt going anywhere
until he does indeed drop dead. THEN, only then, will things change.

I do agree with your assertion. Jerry wants to win a world series, he just isnt interested in doing anything about it.
The same type of things were said about Halas and the Bears.

Things may very well change, not necessarily for the better.

owensmouth
08-13-2004, 02:16 AM
That is definately a good way to start. My formula for success includes acquiring a decent to top notch starter and adding 2 proven bullpen arms. With the lineup we have now, an improved rotation and an improved bullpen, we have the chance to win the World Series. We're really not all that far away and potentially having Brian Anderson the second half of next year might help a lot too in a Miguel Cabrera kind of way (I'm not saying that he's the second coming of Miguel Cabrera, but he might be, you never know). We can go with a PK/Harris/Uribe/Crede infield if we improved our pitching, though it might be a good idea to pick up a better hitter for 2B or 3B. But this team + Odalis Perez would be a playoff team and this team + Pedro Martinez is easily a World Series contender
This team, with any of the present at 2B, SS and 3B hitting less than .200 for an extended period, will not succeed one ****** bit better next year than it has this year.

Mohoney
08-13-2004, 02:17 AM
Just under 5% share.

That's shocking. I thought it was at LEAST in the neighborhood of 20%.

So Reinsdorf only grosses about $5 of every $100 I spend?

Maybe he should buy some of these other investors out so he can do things his way. I mean, if he's going to take all the blame, shouldn't he have way more of the team than he currently does?

gosox41
08-13-2004, 08:02 AM
I don't think the Sun-Times is biased. I think the Windsock Moronotti is just that. Other than that I have no problem with their coverage.

Anyone who doesn't think the Tribune has at least an unspoken ajenda is deluding themselves, IMO. It is in that companies interests to see the flubbies do well. I see it more as a pro-flubbie thing than an anti-White Sox thing, personally, and when I lived in Chicago, I regularly paid for the paper.

I would like for anyone to give me at least some reason to believe that Forbes has an ajenda against JR. I'll even take a good theory on it. I love a good conspiracy... :D:


My point is you can't believe everything the media says. Or at least I won't.


Bob

gosox41
08-13-2004, 08:04 AM
That's shocking. I thought it was at LEAST in the neighborhood of 20%.

So Reinsdorf only grosses about $5 of every $100 I spend?

Maybe he should buy some of these other investors out so he can do things his way. I mean, if he's going to take all the blame, shouldn't he have way more of the team than he currently does?
JR has final say in what happens with the ball club. No matter how much other investors may say things, he is the one who makes all final decisions. That's the way he wants it.


Bob

Baby Fisk
08-13-2004, 08:24 AM
In the book Stealing First in a Two-Team Town by Richard Lindberg (1994), it says that Veeck sold the team in 1981 to a group of 46 (!) investors headed by Reinsdorf.

steff
08-13-2004, 08:46 AM
JR has final say in what happens with the ball club. No matter how much other investors may say things, he is the one who makes all final decisions. That's the way he wants it.


Bob

That is not correct.

gosox41
08-13-2004, 09:21 AM
That is not correct.
That's not what I've been hearing.


Why when someone is wrong, do so many people insist in short, one sentence replies. It's not just you Steff, because I'm not about to give up any confidentiality anymore then you are.

But on a complete sidenote, I've noticed more and more people respond to posts with just one sentence answersm especially when related to on the field issues. When quesitoned on this one sentence reply they say something mature like:

"If you're going to look at it that way, I see no need to further this discussion'

which usually means: 'You're right and I can't admit I'm wrong' Or of course there is the standard no reply when someone makes a vague stmt and refuses to back it up when quesitoned further.

Back to our discussion:

Since we're probably not going to go much further with this then one sentence replies, I'll believe my source you believe yours. Until I hear otherwise from her I will continue to believe her. She has been right about a couple of things she mentioned to me in confidentiality that occurred earlier this seaon which I would not post here.


Bob

steff
08-13-2004, 09:30 AM
That's not what I've been hearing.

Since we're probably not going to go much further with this then one sentence replies, I'll believe my source you believe yours. Until I hear otherwise from her I will continue to believe her. She has been right about a couple of things she mentioned to me in confidentiality that occurred earlier this seaon which I would not post here.


BobNo need to go any further. The fact remains that there's a board. Why have a board to make decisions when in the end only one person does...? it doesn't happen that way.

Nice of the "her" you refer to disclosing private informaton.. There's only 2 "her's" on the board.. I'm sure someone would be interested in knowing one of them is running their mouths.

Dan H
08-13-2004, 09:36 AM
I think you're agreeing with me. We did outspend KC, Minn, Cle, and Det. for 4 straight years and have zero division titles to show. Sounds like hte blame should be on KW.

As for saying JR is losing money I know what I know. He operates this team with the goal of winning and the hopes or breaking even. He doesn't set himself up to take any big losses as he has been pretty accurate projecting attendance and so forth, but any profits are negligible and reinvested in the team.


Bob
I agree with you on one point: Just throwing money at the problem won't help. But you have to spend money to make it, and the fact the Sox can't win this sorry division illustrates that the money currently being spent is not being spent well.

voodoochile
08-13-2004, 11:32 AM
No need to go any further. The fact remains that there's a board. Why have a board to make decisions when in the end only one person does...? it doesn't happen that way.

Nice of the "her" you refer to disclosing private informaton.. There's only 2 "her's" on the board.. I'm sure someone would be interested in knowing one of them is running their mouths.
I have always understood that JR is the President of the Sox. Being President and being Chairman of the Board are two different things.

As President he does have final control of all day to day dealings that the Sox undertake. He is in charge of hiring the GM and has final authority over the Manager and budget. Like Ted Philips for the Bears.

As Chariman of the Board, he answers to the other investors who have given him their votes to make him President.

So to some extent you both are correct. JR must have the approval of the other board members to act as President, but since he is President, he does not have to run every decision by them.

I thought I had read that there were less investors today as some of them have been bought up by other members of the board - including JR.

I am not trying to troll, or call people out, just relating what I have read here and elsewhere through the years. I would welcome more information if people feel comfortable giving it without divulging sources.

Flight #24
08-13-2004, 11:37 AM
What are basing this on? Chairman's spending history? Pre-season payroll projections? Some beat reporter overhearing stuff?

The payroll is roughly 68 Mill. Arguable 5-8 Mill overbudget.

I could maybe see JR and his partners begrudgingly approving additional expenditures if the Sox were 5-7 games in 1st place as the deadline rolled around. Maybe.

But as things stand now? I'll believe it when I see it. And I sure'd like to see it. :bandance:
My point is that in the absence of direct evidence either way, when reputable sources (and a few of them), report that a deal was in place and that the only reason Delgado isn't here is that he wouldn't waive the no-trade, it's a lot more logical to say that that was in fact true than that it was in fact false.

Now if there are conflicting reports, then I'd say you have a point. But I haven't seen anything like that. So you're basically saying "I don't believe the reports because they dont' agree with my view of the world".

TornLabrum
08-13-2004, 12:55 PM
I have always understood that JR is the President of the Sox. Being President and being Chairman of the Board are two different things.

As President he does have final control of all day to day dealings that the Sox undertake. He is in charge of hiring the GM and has final authority over the Manager and budget. Like Ted Philips for the Bears.

As Chariman of the Board, he answers to the other investors who have given him their votes to make him President.

So to some extent you both are correct. JR must have the approval of the other board members to act as President, but since he is President, he does not have to run every decision by them.

I thought I had read that there were less investors today as some of them have been bought up by other members of the board - including JR.

I am not trying to troll, or call people out, just relating what I have read here and elsewhere through the years. I would welcome more information if people feel comfortable giving it without divulging sources.
I'm looking at page 2 of the 2004 media guide under the heading "Officers." It says "Chairman.......Jerry Reinsdorf."

At the beginning of his biography it says, "Jerry Reinsdorf, Chairman."

I don't think you can be much clearer than that.

There is no officer in the organization with the title of "President," although there are several vice presidents.

gosox41
08-13-2004, 05:05 PM
No need to go any further. The fact remains that there's a board. Why have a board to make decisions when in the end only one person does...? it doesn't happen that way.

Nice of the "her" you refer to disclosing private informaton.. There's only 2 "her's" on the board.. I'm sure someone would be interested in knowing one of them is running their mouths.I'll make it clearer. 'Her' has nothing to do with the board at all. 'Her' is also known as 'she' to you. 'She' is close with the team and is friendly with me. 'She' lets me know what 'she' hears when we talk. Some is relevant, some isn't. You may know 'her' I don't know and don't care. Because she will remain 100% confidential to anyone here.

But if you want to think she's on the White Sox Board of Directors feel free. You'd be 100% wrong.

As for posting confidential information, what have I posted that was confidential? You said I was wrong on the JR running the show so doesn't that mean you disclosed confidential info? Also, if I'm wrong how is it confidential to begin with?

I don't know how familiar you are with corporate boards. I have limited experience in that area, but there are plenty of boards that are there because they're required to be. The people on them don't necessarily offer much if anything at all.


Bob

gosox41
08-13-2004, 05:13 PM
I agree with you on one point: Just throwing money at the problem won't help. But you have to spend money to make it, and the fact the Sox can't win this sorry division illustrates that the money currently being spent is not being spent well.
I agree with your theory to an extent. But this year is a perfect example of why JR doesn't take huge financial risks. His 2 stars get hurt and the team faded fast. There is a lack of loyalty among certain Sox fans (some for very good reasons, but that's another thread) where as soon as the team falls out of it attendance tanks. Watch what walk up sales will be like the rest of the way, especially after Labor Day.

Take Tuesday's Cleveland game for example. Half price night 20K people. Sure it was cold and miserable. But aren't these some of the same people that go to watch a Bears game in December? Also, on that same night the Cubs were sold out at full price tickets. The fact is if the Sox were legitmately in contention they would have drawn more then 20K people Tuesday.

As for money not being spent well. That I agree with. KW has not done a good job.


Bob

gosox41
08-13-2004, 05:14 PM
I have always understood that JR is the President of the Sox. Being President and being Chairman of the Board are two different things.

As President he does have final control of all day to day dealings that the Sox undertake. He is in charge of hiring the GM and has final authority over the Manager and budget. Like Ted Philips for the Bears.

As Chariman of the Board, he answers to the other investors who have given him their votes to make him President.

So to some extent you both are correct. JR must have the approval of the other board members to act as President, but since he is President, he does not have to run every decision by them.

I thought I had read that there were less investors today as some of them have been bought up by other members of the board - including JR.

I am not trying to troll, or call people out, just relating what I have read here and elsewhere through the years. I would welcome more information if people feel comfortable giving it without divulging sources.
You're right. Ultimately when it comes down to it, JR is the ulitmate decision maker on this team. That's what I've been saying.


Bob

steff
08-13-2004, 06:27 PM
I'll make it clearer. 'Her' has nothing to do with the board at all. 'Her' is also known as 'she' to you. 'She' is close with the team and is friendly with me. 'She' lets me know what 'she' hears when we talk. Some is relevant, some isn't. You may know 'her' I don't know and don't care. Because she will remain 100% confidential to anyone here.

But if you want to think she's on the White Sox Board of Directors feel free. You'd be 100% wrong.

As for posting confidential information, what have I posted that was confidential? You said I was wrong on the JR running the show so doesn't that mean you disclosed confidential info? Also, if I'm wrong how is it confidential to begin with?

I don't know how familiar you are with corporate boards. I have limited experience in that area, but there are plenty of boards that are there because they're required to be. The people on them don't necessarily offer much if anything at all.


Bob

You implied board, I took liberty.

And I did not say you posted anything confidential. Read what's there.

I'm quite experienced with "boards" as I deal with my companies every single day. Our investors control the company and the financial decisions for it. They have more power than the CEO/President.

steff
08-13-2004, 06:28 PM
You're right. Ultimately when it comes down to it, JR is the ulitmate decision maker on this team. That's what I've been saying.


Bob

And you'd be wrong.

Where in the business world today does the chairman overpower all others.. :rolleyes:

Mohoney
08-13-2004, 10:51 PM
And you'd be wrong.

Where in the business world today does the chairman overpower all others.. :rolleyes:

Enron and Haliburton

gosox41
08-14-2004, 08:54 AM
You implied board, I took liberty.

And I did not say you posted anything confidential. Read what's there.

I'm quite experienced with "boards" as I deal with my companies every single day. Our investors control the company and the financial decisions for it. They have more power than the CEO/President.
You used the word 'privacy' in your post. I took the liberty of someone running their mouths about 'private' information and implied you meant 'confidential' information.

ANd I would say every company is run differently. Based on how the Sox are set up, JR makes the final decisions. He is in charge of the day to day running of this club. Believe it or not, it doesn't matter to me. The Board of the Sox may give their opinions, but in this case JR makes the final decision.


Bob

gosox41
08-14-2004, 09:01 AM
And you'd be wrong.

Where in the business world today does the chairman overpower all others.. :rolleyes:
In the case of the White Sox and how they're set up. I don't know if JR carries any other official titles with his job, but he is the guy responsible for running the day to day operations as well as putting his final stamp of approval on any major financial deals.

You can believe otherwise.


Bob

steff
08-14-2004, 09:27 AM
You used the word 'privacy' in your post. I took the liberty of someone running their mouths about 'private' information and implied you meant 'confidential' information.

ANd I would say every company is run differently. Based on how the Sox are set up, JR makes the final decisions. He is in charge of the day to day running of this club. Believe it or not, it doesn't matter to me. The Board of the Sox may give their opinions, but in this case JR makes the final decision.


Bob

Private and confidential are the same thing, IMO.. and I did say that. I did not say you posted anything so don't lie and put words in my mouth.

And you can type it 10000 different ways. Anyone who knows an investor (of which there are several here) know you're posting inaccurate information. Not your fault. Obviously your "source" is FOS.

steff
08-14-2004, 09:29 AM
In the case of the White Sox and how they're set up. I don't know if JR carries any other official titles with his job, but he is the guy responsible for running the day to day operations as well as putting his final stamp of approval on any major financial deals.

You can believe otherwise.


Bob


You don't know...? Pick up a media guide or read the ISA agreement on line. It's plain as day that he's mearly the spokesman and approves only what's approved by the board.

gosox41
08-14-2004, 11:11 AM
Private and confidential are the same thing, IMO.. and I did say that. I did not say you posted anything so don't lie and put words in my mouth.

And you can type it 10000 different ways. Anyone who knows an investor (of which there are several here) know you're posting inaccurate information. Not your fault. Obviously your "source" is FOS.
Huhh? I don't get your first part of the post when you said you didn't say the word 'confidential'. Whatever.

I assume by 'here' you mean at WSI. So unless I'm misreading your vague words, who here is an investor? For all I know 'here' could mean the city of Chicago as long as you leave yourself an out. And are any of them board members? My source is not FOS. But keep thinking that the Board on this team doe something. My source is as reliable as anyone else here who claims to be an investor. In fact more reliable because I've known her for years and I trust her more then someone who claims to be an investor here.


Bob

steff
08-15-2004, 06:50 AM
Huhh? I don't get your first part of the post when you said you didn't say the word 'confidential'. Whatever.

I assume by 'here' you mean at WSI. So unless I'm misreading your vague words, who here is an investor? For all I know 'here' could mean the city of Chicago as long as you leave yourself an out. And are any of them board members? My source is not FOS. But keep thinking that the Board on this team doe something. My source is as reliable as anyone else here who claims to be an investor. In fact more reliable because I've known her for years and I trust her more then someone who claims to be an investor here.


Bob

So now she's back to being an investor...? :rolleyes:

gosox41
08-15-2004, 07:41 AM
So now she's back to being an investor...? :rolleyes:
I never said that either. Whatever.



Bob