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whitesoxfan444
08-11-2004, 11:56 PM
:dtroll: :) :supernana: I know some people might no blame ozzie guillen at all for what has happened to this team. But I am blaming ozzie guillen for all hitters troubles. 1.) Joe boarchard in the lineup in right field is just one bad move in the lineup and consistency to bat him 5th is also something funny. I saw his throw in 3rd inning to home plate and all I have to say what an arm he has. 2nd.) I would like for someone to tell me when have the whitesox ever have consistent lineup everyday? Ozzie Guillen this whole year has been doing this and yes I can understand when lefthanded pitching dont use jose valetin but please have a lineup for a week of consistency. Todays game we bat rowand 5th when he was hitting first and second most of time prior to this game. I like to know what ozzie is doing because I see trouble is him and nothing else. I am frustrated what has been going on with this offense and I know people hated manuel but at least he was consistent with everyday lineup. I duno how you feel about it but I feel ozzie lineup making is messed up and I just like to know when it will be normal.

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 12:02 AM
:dtroll: :) :supernana: I know some people might no blame ozzie guillen at all for what has happened to this team. But I am blaming ozzie guillen for all hitters troubles. 1.) Joe boarchard in the lineup in right field is just one bad move in the lineup and consistency to bat him 5th is also something funny. I saw his throw in 3rd inning to home plate and all I have to say what an arm he has. 2nd.) I would like for someone to tell me when have the whitesox ever have consistent lineup everyday? Ozzie Guillen this whole year has been doing this and yes I can understand when lefthanded pitching dont use jose valetin but please have a lineup for a week of consistency. Todays game we bat rowand 5th when he was hitting first and second most of time prior to this game. I like to know what ozzie is doing because I see trouble is him and nothing else. I am frustrated what has been going on with this offense and I know people hated manuel but at least he was consistent with everyday lineup. I duno how you feel about it but I feel ozzie lineup making is messed up and I just like to know when it will be normal.
The lineup was the best one he could field against a lefthanded pitcher apparently...and it still sucked. On the other hand, just about every lineup he's put out against a lefty has sucked.

princek
08-12-2004, 12:10 AM
i agree that we need a more consistent lineup, as i did in previous years with J.Manuel. You cant expect this team to be consistent if there is a new lineup everyday with different players everyday, stick with a lineup and go with it for 2 weeks and see what happens, at this point it couldnt hurt.

p.s. make sure crede isnt in it!!!

Nard
08-12-2004, 12:21 AM
Tinker, tinker...

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 12:58 AM
Tinker, tinker...
And what exactly are you supposed to do when your #3 and #4 hitters are out for the year and you have a bunch of stiffs to replace them?

princek
08-12-2004, 01:16 AM
And what exactly are you supposed to do when your #3 and #4 hitters are out for the year and you have a bunch of stiffs to replace them?

ummmm.... would it be too much to field the same damn lineup two days in a row

JB98
08-12-2004, 01:30 AM
And what exactly are you supposed to do when your #3 and #4 hitters are out for the year and you have a bunch of stiffs to replace them?
Well, for one thing, we could plant Borchard's ass on the bench where it belongs and take our chances with Carl Everett. I think Harris should have batted ninth against a lefty. Rowand should be leading off.

OEO Magglio
08-12-2004, 01:33 AM
ummmm.... would it be too much to field the same damn lineup two days in a rowSo you want jose out there against lefties? What about Timo? Ozzie is trying to find some sort of lineup that can do anything against left handed pitchers.

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 01:42 AM
Well, for one thing, we could plant Borchard's ass on the bench where it belongs and take our chances with Carl Everett. I think Harris should have batted ninth against a lefty. Rowand should be leading off.
Wasn't I just reading a tread recently saying that Ozzie should play Borchard every day so we can find out if he's ever going to make it?

Not critical of what you're saying. I'm just noting that there are those who would disagree with you.

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 01:43 AM
So you want jose out there against lefties? What about Timo? Ozzie is trying to find some sort of lineup that can do anything about left handed pitchers.
Nah! You just go with a set lineup and they'll come through no matter who they're facing!

princek
08-12-2004, 01:54 AM
Nah! You just go with a set lineup and they'll come through no matter who they're facing!

yeah and playing twice a week surely improves your chance of hitting when the time comes, come on people this common sense, its impossible to get in a rhythm if your only playing part time.

JB98
08-12-2004, 02:01 AM
Wasn't I just reading a tread recently saying that Ozzie should play Borchard every day so we can find out if he's ever going to make it?

Not critical of what you're saying. I'm just noting that there are those who would disagree with you.
Point taken, and I'll admit to being wishy-washy on this issue. Sometimes I think it would be good for the organization to find out exactly what it has with Borchard. But then, I watch this kid swing the bat so poorly every time he is in the lineup, and I wonder why the hell we are wasting our time.

I guess it depends on whether you feel the Sox are in it or not. Sox management is claiming they still feel we can win this thing. If that's the case, then Borchard should be in AAA. He's hurting the team both at the plate and in the field right now.

whitesoxfan444
08-12-2004, 02:41 AM
Yes I understand without Thomas and Maggs everything changes. But, if I am not mistaken if your going to put a batting order up there everyday you need your best out there and even if injuries happened. I gurantee if you look the white sox have the most inconsistent lineup out of all teams and ozzie guillen has made way way too many changes in the order. I am one not pleased with boarchard and you keep hitting him at sixth in the lineup when players like timo perez, ben davis, hell even joe crede at least touches the ball before he does. I also like how when Arron Rowand was hitting good at number 1 and and number 2 position that he sudden puts him 5th. White sox have not had consistent lineup all yr. I also saw earlier in season Konerko was being benched for Ross Gload. I look at lineups and his lineups never makes sense and only 2 consistent sports he ever has is 3 and 4. Just answer this question where will Arron Rowand ever stay consistent in the lineup? Why do we bat joe boachard 6th when clearly hes not even that.

AnkleSox
08-12-2004, 04:28 AM
yeah and playing twice a week surely improves your chance of hitting when the time comes, come on people this common sense, its impossible to get in a rhythm if your only playing part time.
We all know how streaky and inconsistent this team is. The only players that have proven that they can get into a good long rhythm are konerko, rowand, and lee, and they've all been left in the lineup.

I don't blame ozzie for the lineups. I do, however, blame him for not pinch hitting in late innings when it's obvious the current batter is overmatched.

Jerko
08-12-2004, 09:21 AM
You know, I'm getting about as sick of hearing "but what can we do when our 2 best hitters are out" as I am about the Twins easy schedule. We've beaten better teams than Detroit, Cleveland, and KC with "our 2 best hitters out". Yes, the 2 best hitters are out. They've BEEN out together for almost 2 months now, it's not like it just happened! I'm PRETTY sure even though "our 2 best hitters are out" that you can STILL have the same lineup 2 days in a row. Hell, I'd settle for not pinch hitting for a guy at the end of a game who already has 2 hits like I saw a couple times this past week.

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 09:58 AM
You know, I'm getting about as sick of hearing "but what can we do when our 2 best hitters are out" as I am about the Twins easy schedule. We've beaten better teams than Detroit, Cleveland, and KC with "our 2 best hitters out". Yes, the 2 best hitters are out. They've BEEN out together for almost 2 months now, it's not like it just happened! I'm PRETTY sure even though "our 2 best hitters are out" that you can STILL have the same lineup 2 days in a row. Hell, I'd settle for not pinch hitting for a guy at the end of a game who already has 2 hits like I saw a couple times this past week.
That's the reason why they stink, though. It is the two best hitters who are out. And they are by far the two best hitters on this club. You may be tired of hearing about it, but that's the major fact of life that this club has to live with.

Jerko
08-12-2004, 10:19 AM
That's the reason why they stink, though. It is the two best hitters who are out. And they are by far the two best hitters on this club. You may be tired of hearing about it, but that's the major fact of life that this club has to live with.
I understand that Torn, but like I said, the Sox were beating tougher teams without them and were actually in first place (albiet by half game) without them. Everybody is acting like these injuries just happened. I guess it's just finally catching up to them, but with Buerhle, Garcia, and Contreras the Sox should be better than 4-9 vs. Tigers, Indians, and Royals. Every time I see Borchard out there I have the feeling that the Sox are giving up the rest of this year only to see what he MIGHT be able to do next year, and to me that sucks. I know we lost our 2 best guys, and of course, in typical recent Sox fashion, instead of trying to step up and overcome adversity, they use that adversity as an excuse or an explanation when things go bad. Then again, it's hard to "step up" if you only play every 3rd day. They could have done better than they have even with the big guys hurt IMO.

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 10:29 AM
I understand that Torn, but like I said, the Sox were beating tougher teams without them and were actually in first place (albiet by half game) without them. Everybody is acting like these injuries just happened. I guess it's just finally catching up to them, but with Buerhle, Garcia, and Contreras the Sox should be better than 4-9 vs. Tigers, Indians, and Royals. Every time I see Borchard out there I have the feeling that the Sox are giving up the rest of this year only to see what he MIGHT be able to do next year, and to me that sucks. I know we lost our 2 best guys, and of course, in typical recent Sox fashion, instead of trying to step up and overcome adversity, they use that adversity as an excuse or an explanation when things go bad. Then again, it's hard to "step up" if you only play every 3rd day. They could have done better than they have even with the big guys hurt IMO.
I'm sure somebody here is obsessive-compulsive enough to have kept W-L stats for the time periods in question here, but I'm relying on memory, so anyone should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

IIRC, the Sox were under .500 during Maggs' first trip to the DL. The event precipitating the disaster was Maggs quick exit hot on the heels of Thomas going on the DL, but I'm pretty sure they weren't playing all that well with just one of them out.

The loss of one hurt. The loss of both is what KOed this group of players.

soxtalker
08-12-2004, 10:47 AM
Well, for one thing, we could plant Borchard's ass on the bench where it belongs and take our chances with Carl Everett. I think Harris should have batted ninth against a lefty. Rowand should be leading off.
That's just replacing one problem with another. I was at Sunday's game, and Everett looked terrible defensively. I doubt that it was just this one game, since I've seen other WSI postings commenting on his poor defense. Hopefully, this is mainly due to his injuries. Ozzie has poor alternatives to choose among.

sendimjoey
08-12-2004, 11:50 AM
In 2003, Jerry Manuel ran out the SECOND FEWEST LINEUPS among the 31 managers covered in the 2004 edition of The Bill James Handbook. Bobby Cox was the only manager who trotted out fewer lineups, and if you remember anything about the 2003 Braves and the way they scored runs, I think you can see why Cox didn't have to make too many changes.

I'm all for keeping the lineup the same when that ordering performs. That's what Guillen has done this year, using the same lineup the next day after they score a lot of runs. Technically, Guillen had a different lineup on Tuesday from Monday, but the Sox didn't start scoring until Willie Harris replaced Roberto Alomar, so Harris got the start Tuesday.

Would you rather have a manager who leaves a badly slumping player in the No. 4 hole because that slugger is a "sensitive warrior"? The tinkering has been necessary because of -- and I know many are tired of hearing this one -- the injuries to Ordonez and Thomas and the prolonged slumps of players such as Uribe, Harris, Valentin and Crede.

mdep524
08-12-2004, 12:10 PM
I agree it would be nice, despite the circumstances, to have an every day line up. Mine would be:

Alomar 2B
Perez RF
Lee LF
Konerko 1B
Everett DH
Rowand CF
Valentin SS
Davis C
Uribe 3B

Though I also agree that this prolonged slump of HALF of that line up, plus Crede and Harris, kill any notion of consistency anyway.

alohafri
08-12-2004, 01:01 PM
At this point I'm so frustrated that I'd be happier if he just kept Borchard out indefinitely---he is worse than the Choice, worse than Crede and worse than Uribe. Clearly JB needs to go back to Little league--he is CLUELESS!

That lineup last night sucked. I was at that game and there were 2 times that there should have been double plays but the infield was just pathetic. I think Valentin should have been out there showing the rest of those stiffs how to execute a DP--and his bat wouldn't have mattered anyway--his replacement last night didn't do any better than he would have.

I could have gone to today's game too but chose not to. I still haven't recovered from the headache I got in the 9th inning last night.

once again,
GET RID OF BORCHARD!! WE DON'T NEED HIM!! HECK, PUT THE BATBOY OUT THERE--HE COULDN'T DO ANY WORSE!!

---Mrs. Aloha

Lip Man 1
08-12-2004, 01:05 PM
Hal:

The Sox were 17-19 without Maggs in the lineup the first time around.

Lip

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 04:23 PM
At this point I'm so frustrated that I'd be happier if he just kept Borchard out indefinitely---he is worse than the Choice, worse than Crede and worse than Uribe. Clearly JB needs to go back to Little league--he is CLUELESS!

That lineup last night sucked. I was at that game and there were 2 times that there should have been double plays but the infield was just pathetic. I think Valentin should have been out there showing the rest of those stiffs how to execute a DP--and his bat wouldn't have mattered anyway--his replacement last night didn't do any better than he would have.

I could have gone to today's game too but chose not to. I still haven't recovered from the headache I got in the 9th inning last night.

once again,
GET RID OF BORCHARD!! WE DON'T NEED HIM!! HECK, PUT THE BATBOY OUT THERE--HE COULDN'T DO ANY WORSE!!

---Mrs. Aloha
I was thinking the same thing about Uribe and those FCs that should have been DPs. As for Borchard, I think I could swing the bat quicker than he does, and I'm in my mid-50s.

TornLabrum
08-12-2004, 04:26 PM
Hal:

The Sox were 17-19 without Maggs in the lineup the first time around.

Lip
Thanks, Lip. I thought they were under .500, but couldn't remember by how much. Unless there is a complete revamping of this lineup (Billy Beane model: guys with high OBPs to balance out the boppers and give them a chance for more than solo shots), we probably are close to a .500 club.

RKMeibalane
08-12-2004, 06:50 PM
ummmm.... would it be too much to field the same damn lineup two days in a row
:jerry

"Use the same lineup more than once? Are you crazy? How is any team supposed to win by doing that?"