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View Full Version : White Sox going to 4-man rotation, Felix Diaz to remain in Bullpen...


Aidan
08-11-2004, 06:24 PM
White Sox | Diaz Out of the Rotation - from www.KFFL.com (http://www.kffl.com/)
Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:17:11 -0700

Scott Merkin, of WhiteSox.MLB.com, reports Chicago White Sox SP Felix Diaz will be moved to the bullpen for the rest of the season but will remain with the White Sox. The team plans on using a four-man starting rotation as long as they are in the hunt for a playoff spot this season and having Diaz work out of the pen.At least we will only have to see Diaz get rocked for a couple innings now.

doublem23
08-11-2004, 06:28 PM
With pretty much no off days for the rest of the year, I don't know how much I like this move. I know that 5 games out in mid-August isn't insurmountable, but I don't know about working the four horses that hard when the odds are so slim.

cubhater
08-11-2004, 06:32 PM
Oh boy! Now we can't complain about our fifth starter woes anymore!:o:

Seriously, this can come back to haunt us since I think we only have two off days remaining. This will tax our starters and (heaven forbid) we'll have to rely on our long relievers. Not a good idea but what else can we do?

duke of dorwood
08-11-2004, 06:42 PM
This likely means strict pitch counts and a heavy dose of the arson squad

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 06:46 PM
:ozzie

"I have a lot of confidence in my starters. I will take them out when I get the gut feeling to take them out. 3 days rest, 2 days rest, 1 days rest, it doesnt matter as long as it follows my gut feeling"

DMarte708
08-11-2004, 06:53 PM
I'll likely be lambested for this comment, but I rather Ozzie return to a 5 man rotation (even if it means conceeding the reason) then risking future injury to our three frontline starters. Contreras, Buehrle, and Garcia are signed through 2006 and I'd hate to see a DL stinct for any of these three as a result of this move.

RKMeibalane
08-11-2004, 06:57 PM
Once again we are seeing the results of Reinsdorf's cheapness. If the Sox had five capable starters, there would be no need for this. I just hope one of the Big Three doesn't hurt his arm before next season. That will set this team back even more.

Cubbiesuck13
08-11-2004, 07:03 PM
I love this win now attitude by the team and I don't understand why people here don't want to. Untill we are out of it we should go for it balls out. I am sick and tired of waiting for next year. If we don't make it then we have given it our best shot. This may increase the odds of a dead arm but really shouldn't run the risk of hurting anyone but maybe Contraras because of his forkball or splitter pitch. We don't have flame throwers and it isn't like we are asking them to do it for the whole year or even half of it. Pitchers would throw longer into games on shorter rest for consecutive seasons at a time with less medical innovation and be ok back in the good ole' days. I really like this move. Plus if a player does need another days rest then we have Diaz or Cotts to make a spot start. That is much better than having them pitch every 5 days. However, if someone besides Shingo and Marte doesn't step up NOW then we will see our 'pen start giving up more games. There isn't anything we can do about that other than hit early and hit often.

Gimm
08-11-2004, 07:06 PM
White Sox | Diaz Out of the Rotation - from www.KFFL.com (http://www.kffl.com/)
Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:17:11 -0700

Scott Merkin, of WhiteSox.MLB.com, reports Chicago White Sox SP Felix Diaz will be moved to the bullpen for the rest of the season but will remain with the White Sox. The team plans on using a four-man starting rotation as long as they are in the hunt for a playoff spot this season and having Diaz work out of the pen. Glad to see Sox brass have read the Salvaging the Season thread.


No seriously....desperate times - desperate measures. Let's hope nobody gets hurt.

Cubbiesuck13
08-11-2004, 07:06 PM
Once again we are seeing the results of Reinsdorf's cheapness. If the Sox had five capable starters, there would be no need for this. I just hope one of the Big Three doesn't hurt his arm before next season. That will set this team back even more.
And if JR would have gone out and got Vlad to back up Mags then we wouldn't be crying about lack of offense either. Then again if JR would have spent money on the bullpen then we wouldn't worry about that either. I think you are a closet Yankees fan.

Nard
08-11-2004, 07:06 PM
This is risky business. Risky, risky business.

But it does show the attitude to win now. Most of the fans gave up last week, and the players' attitudes have been called into question, but the division/WC are still very winnable in the management's eyes.

doublem23
08-11-2004, 07:10 PM
This is risky business. Risky, risky business.

But it does show the attitude to win now. Most of the fans gave up last week, and the players' attitudes have been called into question, but the division/WC are still very winnable in the management's eyes.
I wasn't really paying attention to the pre-game interview with Ozzie on CLTV, but I think he said that he was just going to push up starters to get favorable match-ups against better teams. For instance, this weekend the Sox are headed to Boston to play the Red Sox, so they are going to skip over the 5th starter spot, but it seemed like it would kind of depend on the opponent as to whether or not they will use the 5th starter or not.

Cerberus-WG
08-11-2004, 07:13 PM
At least we will only have to see Diaz get rocked for a couple innings now.
Diaz lasted only a couple innings to begin with. :)

Cubbiesuck13
08-11-2004, 07:13 PM
I wasn't really paying attention to the pre-game interview with Ozzie on CLTV, but I think he said that he was just going to push up starters to get favorable match-ups against better teams. For instance, this weekend the Sox are headed to Boston to play the Red Sox, so they are going to skip over the 5th starter spot, but it seemed like it would kind of depend on the opponent as to whether or not they will use the 5th starter or not.
I also read that some pitchers (Garcia for one) don't like to vary in their down days. I agree that the Oz will and should throw a Diaz or Cotts when they need an extra day but how exaclty would that go down as far as the rest of the rotation?

Gimm
08-11-2004, 07:19 PM
With pretty much no off days for the rest of the year, I don't know how much I like this move. I know that 5 games out in mid-August isn't insurmountable, but I don't know about working the four horses that hard when the odds are so slim.
The odds are slim precisely because you can't make up the 5-game deficit (4 in the loss column) when you have an automatic loss every 5th game......and because Sox refuse/are unable to beef up the offense.

Aidan
08-11-2004, 07:41 PM
The 4-man rotation may not last for long...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38822

sendimjoey
08-11-2004, 07:42 PM
I hope they don't do this for very long. It makes sense this weekend, to avoid having Diaz start in Boston. But I think it's too great of a health risk to do it repeatedly. As has been pointed out, the White Sox have some serious money tied up in Garcia, Contreras and Buehrle the next 3, 2 and 3 years, respectively.

HITMEN OF 77
08-11-2004, 07:49 PM
I like it, it's the only way we can get back into the race. I do however think that we need to put Cotts in a day or two and break up the days off. I think we have 3 days off left on the schedule.

Gimm
08-11-2004, 07:50 PM
The 4-man rotation may not last for long...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38822You might be right, but it would have nothing to do with that worthless goon Kinney.

Fact of the matter is, you cannot allow Brian Anderson and May shove their pathetic "stuff" up your ass game in and out.

Do these greedy undisciplined morons know what a change-up is? Or will they all collectively show up early to the ballpark tomorrow and ask Greg Walker about this wonderous new invention?

*vomits*

cbrownson13
08-11-2004, 08:01 PM
I was listening to ESPN radio last weekend and they had Leo Mazzone (I believe that's his name) the pitching coach of the Braves and he said he could coach and win easily with a 4 man rotation. I know he is one of the best pitching coaches in the game, but if he is so confident that he could make it work, why not Coop?

Daver
08-11-2004, 08:10 PM
I was listening to ESPN radio last weekend and they had Leo Mazzone (I believe that's his name) the pitching coach of the Braves and he said he could coach and win easily with a 4 man rotation. I know he is one of the best pitching coaches in the game, but if he is so confident that he could make it work, why not Coop?
Pitching a four man rotation is not that diffucult, if you start in ST and condition all your starters to pitch every fourth day. To make the swith two thirds of the way through the season is a completely different subject, your asking your starters to change their schedules, their workout regimens, everything.

Win1ForMe
08-11-2004, 08:52 PM
I really don't see the point to this. Since our little slide started, we're just 4-10 in games started by the "big four" of Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, and Garland. Somehow I don't think we're losing ground because of our 5th starters.

Win1ForMe
08-11-2004, 09:20 PM
From the Trib:

According to manager Ozzie Guillen, if the White Sox are within four games of the Minnesota Twins by the time the two teams meet again—which will be Sept. 14-16 in Minnesota—he will go to a four-man pitching rotation for the remainder of the season.

"If we get the opportunity and the chance to be in this spot to win this thing, I think we will try to do it," Guillen said.
.................

In any event, Guillen said he'll likely use Buehrle and Jon Garland, Tuesday's starter, on short rest this weekend in Boston and skip Felix Diaz. Guillen said the decision to pass Diaz was more a reflection of keeping Garcia and Contreras on schedule than Diaz's pitching.

Diaz allowed seven runs and three home runs in 21/3 innings Monday night.

With Monday being an off day, Garcia and Contreras would both have an extra day off without skipping Diaz.

"The last time Garcia threw with six days' rest was real tough, and he told me he doesn't like to have another day off," Guillen said.http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040810soxbits,1,4133674.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

calderon
08-11-2004, 09:50 PM
I don't like the sound of this, can we please fast forward to 2005?

Gimm
08-11-2004, 11:12 PM
Try it as long as the starters don't throw more than 90-100 pitches a game.

If team isn't any closer to the Twins by the August 31st deadline, then call it a season.

Until then, it's at least worth a fight.

balke
08-12-2004, 01:30 AM
:ozzie

"I have a lot of confidence in my starters. I will take them out when I get the gut feeling to take them out. 3 days rest, 2 days rest, 1 days rest, it doesnt matter as long as it follows my gut feeling"
The Royals are pushing your guts in Oz. The royals. :mad:

PorkChopExpress
08-12-2004, 07:27 AM
Mark Buehrle, Freddy Garcia, Jose Contreras, and Jon Garland - the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse!

KingXerxes
08-12-2004, 09:44 AM
We're five out with about fifty to go, and while that's not insurmountable it would certainly look more achievable if the White Sox were hitting. While we've had problems all year with a fifth starter - that doesn't seem to be the glaring weakness right now.

If they go to a four man rotation, that's only going to put more and more pressure on the bullpen - especially given the fact that the White Sox don't get a day off for about a month - and the bullpen already looks like it's fried.

Kenny Williams has an aggressive "win now" attitude that a lot of people seem to really like on this board, but in order to justify aggressively making moves to win now, you have to be a a solid position to justify that attitude. As an example, let's a say guy took his last $500 and bought Lotto tickets in order to "win now". If he hits - people will say what a genius he was, but if he loses he's an idiot who just blew his last $500. I'm starting to think that Kenny Williams - in a proverbial sense - prefers Lottery investments to savings accounts. His attitude is fine if the house is paid off, the kids' college money is put away, and the credit cards are paid off - but I don't think that's really the situation with this team right now.

I still think Cotts should be made the fifth starter - give him some starts and let's see what he's got. Last year he was touted as a phenom, and now he's buried in the bullpen.

Gimm
08-12-2004, 01:14 PM
We're five out with about fifty to go, and while that's not insurmountable it would certainly look more achievable if the White Sox were hitting. While we've had problems all year with a fifth starter - that doesn't seem to be the glaring weakness right now..What. are. you. talking. about.

The last 2 times a 5th starter took the mound, the game was lost in the 2nd (Schoeneweis) and 3rd inning (Diaz) respectively.

Do you understand what an automatic loss every 5th day can mean when a team is desperately trying to make up 4 game deficit in the loss column with only 51 games to go? Think of what that does for an already-anemic offense - and how much confort it gives to the opposing pitcher when he knows that he could give up 5 runs in 7 innings and his team will stilll win the game because the 5th starter on the Sox will give up 7 runs in 5 innings.

Hell, Sox were coming off a 2-game winning streak and things were beginning to look up a bit after a string of 1-run losses against Twins and Tigers.....and Schoneweis stop the momentum dead in its tracks by surrendering 10 runs in the 2nd inning of the following game, just ripping the heart out.......No, thanks - I'd rather take a chance on the 4-man rotation from now on.

The offense needs help, true. It needed help back when they were 2 games up without Magglio or Thomas in the line-up in June. It needed help when they were 1/2 game up in late July. Robbie and Everett were fine low-cost acquisitions that will pay dividents before it's all said and done, but the Sox needed a RF who would be a major presence in the middle of the order to help take pressure off Lee, Konerko and Valentin - say a certain RF.

KW failed to secure that player and the team's offense died -- all those frustrating 1- and 2-run losses in the last couple of week that should have never been. JR himself said that money isn't a problem - with a 65 Mill payroll, how many expensive offensive talents have the Sox acquired to help fill the void left by Frank?

Anyway this offense we have right now, while criminally neglected by the persons running the franchise, is still BETTER than 2.5 runs a game. At some point, Robbie, Uribe, Valentin and Everett will get hot again and the team will start putting up some runs. THAT's when the ALC race will get interesting. Hopefully it won't be too late.

And yes, I am still hoping KW gets Hairston/Lofton and Cruz, Jr to try jump-start this thing :bandance:

habibharu
08-12-2004, 01:18 PM
the 4 man rotation thing is idiotic. we are not going anywhere this season. LET DIAZ PITCH! we have to develop him for the future. all this 4 man **** is gonna do is **** up one of our SPs for next yr!

Gimm
08-12-2004, 01:44 PM
all this 4 man **** is gonna do is **** up one of our SPs for next yr!!
Not if they're closely monitored by the coaches and trainers.

Not if there is a strict pitch count imposed.

Not if Diaz/Cotts are so good out of the pen, that Ozzie can feel comfortable taking the starters out in the 6th inning. Well, Felix and Neal, your table is set.


Oh and....bring up Kelly Wunsch. But not before releasing Mike Jackson.

KingXerxes
08-12-2004, 01:53 PM
Not if they're closely monitored by the coaches and trainers.

Not if there is a strict pitch count imposed.

Not if Diaz/Cotts are so good out of the pen, that Ozzie can feel comfortable taking the starters out in the 6th inning. Well, Felix and Neal, your table is set.


Oh and....bring up Kelly Wunsch. But not before releasing Mike Jackson.
Not if..............not if...........not if.

If Diaz and Cotts are "so good" out of the pen, then you may as well start them. I don't undertand your logic. If the four starters are put on strict pitch counts - then the bullpen will have their collective tongue hanging out by mid-September. And if.........IF.........the White Sox make the playoffs, they'll have absolutely no chance to succeed due to the fact that the entire pitching corp is spent.

Mohoney
08-12-2004, 02:27 PM
the 4 man rotation thing is idiotic. we are not going anywhere this season. LET DIAZ PITCH! we have to develop him for the future. all this 4 man **** is gonna do is **** up one of our SPs for next yr!

Let Diaz and Cotts pitch in AAA instead of messing their heads up even more up here, then call them back up in September. I would rather get a 5th starter off the scrap heap, and hope and pray that he's at least servicable.

If we're seriously going to go to a 4 man rotation, we better make a trade for a bullpen arm and compliment that with bringing up Kelly Wunsch. With an 8 man bullpen, we just might be able to pull it off.

We would have to send a position player down to the minors, though. How about one of the Joes?

Gimm
08-12-2004, 02:31 PM
.If Diaz and Cotts are "so good" out of the pen, then you may as well start them.
There is a reason why Glover and Shoeneweis, among many others (including Gagne and Hawkins) were much better pitching an inning or two in the pen than they were starting. Their fastball had mustard in the pen. Their breaking ball had more bite. Control was sharper because they didn't have to overthrow. Batters only saw them once through the line-up - if that.

I can see Diaz, Adkins and Cotts pitching a scoreless inning or two to bridge to Politte-Wunsch-Marte-Shingo. I can't see them starting a game and NOT giving up 3-4 runs in the first 4-5 innings.

And remember, the 4-man rotation thing will only be used if Sox are within shooting distance of the Twins. If a week from now they fall to 8 games out, Sox will probably go back to the 5-man set-up.