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View Full Version : Juan Pierre or Aaron Rowand?


CWWTWS1
08-11-2004, 12:23 PM
Got into a little debate with a friend of mine who said that Rowand was a better player then Pierre. I told him if I had the choice, I would take Pierre. Thoughts?

JohnBasedowYoda
08-11-2004, 12:40 PM
Aaron, and no i will not support my opinion with facts or examples.

sendimjoey
08-11-2004, 01:48 PM
I would take Rowand in our ballpark, for sure. Rowand is .303/.353/.540 this year, and .283/.335/.459 in his career. He's also 13-of-14 in steals this year, and 18-of-21 in his career. Pierre is .310/.363/.384 this year and .308/.358/.374 for his career. He has a lot more stolen bases, 192, but just a TON of caught stealings, 71, which figures out to a 73% success rate, which is OK, but he really shouldn't be running that much unless he can convert at a higher rate. That's too many outs he's giving up.

In a park with a huge centerfield, Pierre is a little more interesting, because he probably does have more range than Rowand. Some of that advantage is lessened by Pierre's horrible arm, whereas Rowand has a strong, accurate arm and actually knows about hitting cut-off men. Plus, Rowand is at least a full year behind Pierre in service time, so he will be cheaper to employ for an extra year. This year, Rowand is making $340,000 and Pierre is making $2.4 million.

Here are the links...
Rowand:http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6742&context=batting

Pierre: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6550&context=batting

Something interesting that I saw while looking up these numbers: Even with his horrific recent slump (which he seems to be snapping out of the last two nights), Jose Valentin was still No. 35 in the American League in OPS -- right ahead of All-Stars Alfonso Soriano (No. 36), Matt Lawton (No. 37) and Ken Harvey (No. 39). So let's think about that before we talk of junking Jose like he's Rey Ordonez or Mike Caruso.

PK is 10th and CLee is 20th, BTW.

CWWTWS1
08-11-2004, 02:10 PM
Joey, those are interesting numbers. I don't know what it is about Pierre that intrigues me so much. I guess the fact that he can fly and is a solid left handed hitter have something to do with it. He also is a pest at the top of the lineup and when he is on base he drives pitchers crazy. Rowand can go get em in center like Pierre can, but he is not a disruptive force on the bases like Pierre.

sendimjoey
08-11-2004, 02:26 PM
I can understand that. Pierre is an interesting player, fun to watch and pretty good. I just prefer Rowand to Pierre, although I would like to see Rowand a little more patient at the plate. I think if Pierre picked his spots to steal a little more wisely, he would be more valuable. Right now, getting caught so often, he's disruptive at least as much to the Marlins offense as he is to the opponent's defense.

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 02:38 PM
Rowand's certainly had the better season. I've long been a fan of his but I never dreamed of him hitting .315 especially with another rough season. Personally, I'm clueless about where he's career is going to go after this season.

OurBitchinMinny
08-11-2004, 02:48 PM
Definitely juan pierre long term. More of a threat on the bases and has world series experience. Perfect leadoff hitter

Aidan
08-12-2004, 05:30 AM
With the Cell's easy to play CF, I would take Rowand. Pierre has more range while Rowand has the better arm. But since Rowand has alot of power and can still get on base and steal a few bases, I would take him over Pierre. Pierre is making more money and his main attraction (stolen bases) is way down this season.

WinningUgly!
08-12-2004, 07:50 AM
Rowand's occasional power doesn't cancel out Pierre's speed advantage, & Pierre's ability to move runners over makes this one easy. No brainer...Juan Pierre.

Frater Perdurabo
08-12-2004, 10:06 AM
I'd take Juan Pierre in center, leading off, with Rowand in left, batting second. Beltran would bat third and start in right, followed by Frank at DH and Pujols at first. :bandance:

doublem23
08-12-2004, 11:42 AM
Juan Pierre... The guy has a career .357 OBP and averages 51 SB and 17 CS per 162 games entering this year. In other words, he is exactly what the Sox need at the top of their line-up.

CWWTWS1
08-12-2004, 11:56 AM
Who do you think Ozzie would choose? I'd bet he would take Pierre.

gosox41
08-12-2004, 12:16 PM
players/stats?statsId=6550&context=batting (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6550&context=batting)

Something interesting that I saw while looking up these numbers: Even with his horrific recent slump (which he seems to be snapping out of the last two nights), Jose Valentin was still No. 35 in the American League in OPS -- right ahead of All-Stars Alfonso Soriano (No. 36), Matt Lawton (No. 37) and Ken Harvey (No. 39). So let's think about that before we talk of junking Jose like he's Rey Ordonez or Mike Caruso.

PK is 10th and CLee is 20th, BTW.

On the flipside of your OPS point with Valentin, he only has a .295 OBP.

Some (including me) believe that OBP is more important then slugging % for various reasons. It means a hitter is working the count more, taking more walks, probably striking out less, raising the opposing teams pitch count, putting more pressure on the opposing team when he does get on base, etc.

Someone has tried quanitifying it by stating that OBP is roughly 30% more important then SLG%. OPS obviously is the combo of the two equally.

A couple of years ago someone on ESPN.com did the top OPS players taking into account this extra 30%. It was quite interesting. I'd like to see where Jose ranks now if this were taken into consideration.


Bob

idseer
08-12-2004, 12:19 PM
Who do you think Ozzie would choose? I'd bet he would take Pierre.
you haven't a clue who oz would take.

it seems to me that aaron is exactly the kind of player ozzie wants on his team.
his ops is over 100 points higher and he's a worker and team player.
pierre's stolen bases are way down this year and his caught steals are way up.

rowand's range factor is 2.90, pierre's is 2.26
rowand's zone rating is 9.31, pierre's is .840

why should oz prefer pierre?

CWWTWS1
08-12-2004, 12:23 PM
Who was Florida's 3rd base coach last year, idseer? I'm sure Ozzie would love to have Juan on this team. He knows what a disruptive force Pierre is and he is the proto type leadoff hitter. What more can you want?

idseer
08-12-2004, 12:26 PM
Who was Florida's 3rd base coach last year, idseer? I'm sure Ozzie would love to have Juan on this team. He knows what a disruptive force Pierre is and he is the proto type leadoff hitter. What more can you want?
who's the sox coach this year? i'm sure oz loves having rowand on this team. he knows what a hard working, good hitting and fielding player he is. what more can you want?

CWWTWS1
08-12-2004, 12:28 PM
Rowand is good and is a hard worker, no doubt about it. However, if you mean to tell me that you would not want Pierre at the top of the order, I would STRONGLY disagree.

idseer
08-12-2004, 12:39 PM
Rowand is good and is a hard worker, no doubt about it. However, if you mean to tell me that you would not want Pierre at the top of the order, I would STRONGLY disagree.
non-sequitur.

that wasn't the question. the question was which guy you'd prefer on your club.

Gimm
08-12-2004, 01:03 PM
rowand's range factor is 2.90, pierre's is 2.26
rowand's zone rating is 9.31, pierre's is .840Range Factor has to be pitching staff-adjusted.

Zone Rating is a more useful tool, and Aaron's 2-year (03-04) advantage over most CF in the bigs is no fluke - but has HAS benefited from not having to play in the spacious Pro Players, Coors, old Comerica, Safeco, Fenway, etc.

Based on watching the two play (still by far the best way to determine range, as subjective as that may be), Pierre doesn't have more range either. He is faster, Rowand gets better jumps and takes better routes.

Remember, Rowand has about 950 OPS since getting regular playing time in May. Despite a week-long slump.