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View Full Version : Anybody else think that the everett trade is gonna hurt us?


habibharu
08-10-2004, 06:17 PM
i think that the second everett deal is gonna come back to haunt us. given a consistent chance in Mtl. I think that rauch is gonna be a pretty decent 4th or 5th starter(he already beat petitte and the stros!) , and I know that majewski has been bouncing around throughout his career, but he has closer stuff. and everett isnt exacltly lighting the world on fire either. also i think that this deal is gonna hurt us financially, since everett is probably gonna take his 4.5 mil option next yr. and prevent us from signing a "grinder" like Cat or hairston. but what else can you expect when a moron like KW is running your team?!!!:angry: :angry: :angry:

thepaulbowski
08-10-2004, 06:17 PM
i think that the second everett deal is gonna come back to haunt us. given a consistent chance in Mtl. I think that rauch is gonna be a pretty decent 4th or 5th starter(he already beat petitte and the stros!) , and I know that majewski has been bouncing around throughout his career, but he has closer stuff. and everett isnt exacltly lighting the world on fire either. also i think that this deal is gonna hurt us financially, since everett is probably gonna take his 4.5 mil option next yr. and prevent us from signing a "grinder" like Cat or hairston. but what else can you expect when a moron like KW is running your team?!!!:angry: :angry: :angry:

No.

Huisj
08-10-2004, 06:19 PM
all year long i've been thinking rauch looks more major league ready than diaz. i still just don't get why he sat on the bench for 2 weeks after he had that rather good start against cleveland right before the cubs series. he seemed like our best fifth starter option, but never pitched again.

39thandWallace
08-10-2004, 06:25 PM
i think that the second everett deal is gonna come back to haunt us. given a consistent chance in Mtl. I think that rauch is gonna be a pretty decent 4th or 5th starter(he already beat petitte and the stros!) , and I know that majewski has been bouncing around throughout his career, but he has closer stuff. and everett isnt exacltly lighting the world on fire either. also i think that this deal is gonna hurt us financially, since everett is probably gonna take his 4.5 mil option next yr. and prevent us from signing a "grinder" like Cat or hairston. but what else can you expect when a moron like KW is running your team?!!!:angry: :angry: :angry:
Wow take it easy! KW just obtained 2 pretty damn good pitchers. If you want to point the finger it starts and ends with Reinsdorf.
As far as the Bears 4-12 wait and see I'm thinking at least 8-8.

bobj4400
08-10-2004, 06:33 PM
(he already beat petitte and the stros!)

So has everyone else this year...the astros suck.

habibharu
08-10-2004, 06:39 PM
[QUOTE=39thandWallace] KW just obtained 2 pretty damn good pitchers. .
QUOTE] the jury is still out on both of them, especially contreras.

HITMEN OF 77
08-10-2004, 06:40 PM
This trade didn't hurt us a bit. Besdies, Diaz has showed so much promise.

CHISOXFAN13
08-10-2004, 06:49 PM
[QUOTE=39thandWallace] KW just obtained 2 pretty damn good pitchers. .
QUOTE] the jury is still out on both of them, especially contreras.

The jury is out on Freddy Garcia? Are you kidding me.

fquaye149
08-10-2004, 06:50 PM
[QUOTE=39thandWallace] KW just obtained 2 pretty damn good pitchers. .
QUOTE] the jury is still out on both of them, especially contreras.
but we're assuming jon rauch would have been even passable for us, never mind what he does in nowhere-nopressure land up north?

*****.

Huisj
08-10-2004, 06:53 PM
*****.
hmm, i can usually figure out these goofy internet acronym statement things, but this one's got me confused. :?:

Iguana775
08-10-2004, 06:57 PM
hmm, i can usually figure out these goofy internet acronym statement things, but this one's got me confused. :?:
give me a f'ing break

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 07:07 PM
i think that the second everett deal is gonna come back to haunt us. given a consistent chance in Mtl. I think that rauch is gonna be a pretty decent 4th or 5th starter(he already beat petitte and the stros!) , and I know that majewski has been bouncing around throughout his career, but he has closer stuff. and everett isnt exacltly lighting the world on fire either. also i think that this deal is gonna hurt us financially, since everett is probably gonna take his 4.5 mil option next yr. and prevent us from signing a "grinder" like Cat or hairston. but what else can you expect when a moron like KW is running your team?!!!:angry: :angry: :angry:
Yes, I think that we could regret it, primarily because it isn't clear where Everett will fit next year. I've never been a great supporter of KW, but the trade made good sense at the time it was made.

Aidan
08-10-2004, 07:08 PM
Yes, I think that we could regret it, primarily because it isn't clear where Everett will fit next year. I've never been a great supporter of KW, but the trade made good sense at the time it was made.If Everett gets 100% healthy to play the field, I think he will be our starting right fielder next season.

hold2dibber
08-10-2004, 07:12 PM
i think that the second everett deal is gonna come back to haunt us. given a consistent chance in Mtl. I think that rauch is gonna be a pretty decent 4th or 5th starter(he already beat petitte and the stros!) , and I know that majewski has been bouncing around throughout his career, but he has closer stuff. and everett isnt exacltly lighting the world on fire either. also i think that this deal is gonna hurt us financially, since everett is probably gonna take his 4.5 mil option next yr. and prevent us from signing a "grinder" like Cat or hairston. but what else can you expect when a moron like KW is running your team?!!!:angry: :angry: :angry:
The Sox needed to get another bat and it made sense to go for it at the time the trade was made. With that said, I do think Rauch is going to be a decent MLB pitcher - I would have rather kept him and dealt Diaz (who also probably had more trade value).

idseer
08-10-2004, 07:46 PM
This trade didn't hurt us a bit. Besdies, Diaz has showed so much promise.
where? he's shown that he STINKS in the bigs so far.

Iguana775
08-10-2004, 07:49 PM
i think that the second everett deal is gonna come back to haunt us. given a consistent chance in Mtl. I think that rauch is gonna be a pretty decent 4th or 5th starter(he already beat petitte and the stros!) , and I know that majewski has been bouncing around throughout his career, but he has closer stuff. and everett isnt exacltly lighting the world on fire either. also i think that this deal is gonna hurt us financially, since everett is probably gonna take his 4.5 mil option next yr. and prevent us from signing a "grinder" like Cat or hairston. but what else can you expect when a moron like KW is running your team?!!!:angry: :angry: :angry:
are you a glass half empty guy? seems like it.

:chickenlittle

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 08:23 PM
If Everett gets 100% healthy to play the field, I think he will be our starting right fielder next season.
I was at Sunday's game, and he really looked bad on one ball hit over his head in left field. (In fact, Ozzie removed him from the game the next inning, IIRC.) Now, that may be due to his injuries.

I doubt that Everett playing right field is the primary plan, however. That's probably where they expect Borchard to play. The many Borchard doubters on WSI will, of course, state that he won't make it, but it sure looks like it is the plan of Sox management.

Soxzilla
08-10-2004, 09:50 PM
[QUOTE=39thandWallace] KW just obtained 2 pretty damn good pitchers. .
QUOTE] the jury is still out on both of them, especially contreras.
The jury is still out on those two fantastic pitchers, yet your already crucifying kw for trading away the mildly average-aint-goin'-nowhere-but-down Jon Rauch!? Especially after jon has only pitched against the stros'!?

Hey Mr. Hypocrite meet Mr. Contradiction.

As for why Rauch sat on the bench after that big game against cleveland rather than sitting diaz. I believe the sox organization already knew that they were gonna keep diaz for the future and deal rauch, thus Jon would look better having just "aced" the best O in the league rather than letting him pitch again against the cubs and having the possibility he gets shelled.

:smile:

Lip Man 1
08-10-2004, 09:56 PM
I don't think we need to worry about regretting the two 'can't miss prospects' we gave up for Carl.

They weren't anything to start with especially Rauch.

Lip

jeremyb1
08-10-2004, 10:03 PM
Wow take it easy! KW just obtained 2 pretty damn good pitchers. If you want to point the finger it starts and ends with Reinsdorf.
As far as the Bears 4-12 wait and see I'm thinking at least 8-8.

Haha. Yeah KW would need to spend 9 and 6 million on every player he acquires to put together a good team so I guess Reinsdorf does need to spend more for us to win.

kittle42
08-11-2004, 12:30 AM
Jon Rauch sucks.

I friggin' hate it when a guy we trade has one good game and someone is already busting in with how screwed we're gonna be. Ugh.

JB98
08-11-2004, 01:01 AM
Jon Rauch sucks.

I friggin' hate it when a guy we trade has one good game and someone is already busting in with how screwed we're gonna be. Ugh.

I agree. I was ready to have a parade when they dumped Rauch. The guy is nothing more than a back-of-the-rotation starter, and those are easy to find.

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE=39thandWallace] KW just obtained 2 pretty damn good pitchers. .
QUOTE] the jury is still out on both of them, especially contreras.
And yet somehow the jury is in on Rauch & Majewski?:?:

For what it's worth, I actually DO think the jury is in on both of those guys....they've been found "guilty" of being AAAA players.

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 09:12 AM
are you a glass half empty guy? seems like it.

:chickenlittle
He's more like a "glass is broken" kind of guy.

Huisj
08-11-2004, 10:03 AM
I agree. I was ready to have a parade when they dumped Rauch. The guy is nothing more than a back-of-the-rotation starter, and those are easy to find.
hmm, that's funny. The sox haven't found one in 3 or 4 years.

inta
08-11-2004, 10:24 AM
Man whoever started this thread is a pure comedian.

Rauch can go jump in the Atlantic for all I care... walking out on your team before the game is even over?
forget it. I don't want anyone on my team like that.


I've been down on KW a bit lately, but the guy has pulled off some great trades this summer.

we got rid of koch
we got rid of rauch
we got 2 great pitchers for next to nothing.
we got robbie and carl back to help an offense that has blown chunks the last 2 months.

sure he's depleted our farm system even more this summer for 0 results, but our farm system sucked anyway.
i actually don't feel too bad going into 2005, and i couldnt say that at the end of last season...

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 10:45 AM
The KW-bashers need to remember 2 things.

1) Not many think or thought that Rauch would end up as even an average Major league #4 or 5 starter. I haven't seen anything that would change that, but I freely admit it's early to make any final decision on him. lket's at least see how he pitches for a few starts. I would not be surprised, however if in the NL, in a pitchrs park, he puts up and ERA in the high 4s. But that wouldn't cut it in the AL.

2) At the time of the deal, we had every exxpectation that Maggs was coming back and that Frank was down for either the year or at least most of it. So to all those concerned about how "KW made a bad deal becuase of the imnpact on next year", I ask: Who else was out there (no one's been traded that woudl qualify), or did you just want to call it a season in July when Frank went down and go with Gload/Borchard?

Everett was a pretty decent option, and the best available option. Sure there's some impact on next year when he'll take up 4.5mil. But I'd rather have tied down 4.5mil next year than give up in July, especially when you had every expectation that you wouldn't be down 2 big bats, just 1.

fquaye149
08-11-2004, 03:28 PM
hmm, that's funny. The sox haven't found one in 3 or 4 years.
yeah, but that's his UPSIDE, wiseguy. right now he's a back of the rotation felix diaz kind of guy.

habibharu
08-11-2004, 03:31 PM
im more worried about the financial reasons, not the rauch and majewskie

habibharu
08-11-2004, 03:32 PM
are you a glass half empty guy? seems like it.

:chickenlittle no, im a realist. and realistically, KW has not gotten the job done and needs to be fired

habibharu
08-11-2004, 03:33 PM
The jury is out on Freddy Garcia? Are you kidding me. he's given up 4 runs 3 or 4 times already. and he's suppposed to be an "ace"

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 04:00 PM
he's given up 4 runs 3 or 4 times already. and he's suppposed to be an "ace"
Ummmm......in his 8 Sox starts, he's put up a 1.07WHIP / 8.36 K/9 / 4.33 K/BB / 3.70ERA in a hitters park. I'd really enjoy it if you could tell me how many teams have a better ace pitcher.

kittle42
08-11-2004, 04:02 PM
he's given up 4 runs 3 or 4 times already. and he's suppposed to be an "ace"
What more do you want? He's not Johnson, Martinez, Clemens, Prior, etc. caliber. I don't think anyone ever thought he was.

thepaulbowski
08-11-2004, 04:04 PM
he's given up 4 runs 3 or 4 times already. and he's suppposed to be an "ace"

Please, he's been everything the Sox wanted and more so far. With the Cell being the new Coors, what do you expect. 3.77 ERA, boy that stinks.

eriqjaffe
08-11-2004, 04:20 PM
Please, he's been everything the Sox wanted and more so far. With the Cell being the new Coors, what do you expect. 3.77 ERA, boy that stinks.
Freddie at home - 4.34
Freddie on the road - 3.00

As a team, the Sox have a 5.01 ERA at home, and a 4.26 ERA on the road.

I'm pretty dang happy with the way Freddie's pitched. Better at the Cell than Buehrle, in fact.

habibharu
08-11-2004, 04:27 PM
Freddie at home - 4.34
Freddie on the road - 3.00

As a team, the Sox have a 5.01 ERA at home, and a 4.26 ERA on the road.

I'm pretty dang happy with the way Freddie's pitched. Better at the Cell than Buehrle, in fact.so what? buehrles not an ace either! and with what we gave up for freddy, he better pitch like an ace. 4.34 at home is pathetic

iwannago
08-11-2004, 04:28 PM
I don't always agree with KW's trades or signings. However all KW trades made this year really can not be judged until next year or later.

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 04:28 PM
so what? buehrles not an ace either! and with what we gave up for freddy, he better pitch like an ace. 4.34 at home is pathetic
Why don't you check the stats for other pitchers @ USCF. You'll see that 4.34 is actually pretty damn good.

OurBitchinMinny
08-11-2004, 04:34 PM
rauch blows

jabrch
08-11-2004, 04:40 PM
Why don't you check the stats for other pitchers @ USCF. You'll see that 4.34 is actually pretty damn good.
Don't feed the :dtroll:

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 04:42 PM
so what? buehrles not an ace either! and with what we gave up for freddy, he better pitch like an ace. 4.34 at home is pathetic
Buehrle's ERA is 2.76 on the road and about 2 runs higher at home. This reflects the fact that US Cellular Field is one of the hardest parks to pitch at in the major leagues. Garcia's ERA outside the Cell is 3.1ish. Both of these pitchers are definately aces whether you chose to believe it or not, but it's just a fact of life that their ERAs aren't going to be pretty at US Cellular Field. There are hardly any pitchers in baseball that could post a sub-3.5 ERA pitching half of their games at US Cellular field. This just shows how good Loaiza's year was last year because his road ERA was 2.46, while his home ERA was 3.32. This year I think the new roof made the Cell an absolute launching pad and a 3.75 ERA would be commendable.

OEO Magglio
08-11-2004, 04:44 PM
so what? buehrles not an ace either! and with what we gave up for freddy, he better pitch like an ace. 4.34 at home is patheticWow, this is a complete joke. A 4.34 in the al is actually really good, plus considering the cell is about as hitter friendly a park there is, that is very darn good. Also, what did we give up? A catcher that is hitting around .215, while we got a catcher that is hitting around .310, a minor league outfielder that is hitting .290, granted reed is having a solid year in the minors but he hasn't proven anything, we get an ace and your still trying to do everything in your power to prove that this trade was bad because you really want kenny to fail.:dtroll:

habibharu
08-11-2004, 04:46 PM
Why don't you check the stats for other pitchers @ USCF. You'll see that 4.34 is actually pretty damn good. pedro-1.80 ERA, sabathia-21 IP, 2.91 ERA, mulder-21 IP, 3.43 ERA, zito-21 IP, 2.7o ERA,halladay-1.13 ERA

habibharu
08-11-2004, 04:50 PM
Buehrle's ERA is 2.76 on the road and about 2 runs higher at home. This reflects the fact that US Cellular Field is one of the hardest parks to pitch at in the major leagues. Garcia's ERA outside the Cell is 3.1ish. Both of these pitchers are definately aces whether you chose to believe it or not, but it's just a fact of life that their ERAs aren't going to be pretty at US Cellular Field. There are hardly any pitchers in baseball that could post a sub-3.5 ERA pitching half of their games at US Cellular field. This just shows how good Loaiza's year was last year because his road ERA was 2.46, while his home ERA was 3.32. This year I think the new roof made the Cell an absolute launching pad and a 3.75 ERA would be commendable. neither of these pitchers are aces! they are both perfect number 2's! i will give you 15 SPs Id rather have than both of them. give me ur thoughts: mulder,zito,santana,sabathia,brown,pedro,schilling ,halladay,schmidt,johnson,
prior, wood,zambrano, clemens,sheets. those are just off of the top of my head

kittle42
08-11-2004, 04:55 PM
pedro-1.80 ERA, sabathia-21 IP, 2.91 ERA, mulder-21 IP, 3.43 ERA, zito-21 IP, 2.7o ERA,halladay-1.13 ERA
You forget, they get to face the Sox. :smile:

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 04:58 PM
neither of these pitchers are aces! they are both perfect number 2's! i will give you 15 SPs Id rather have than both of them. give me ur thoughts: mulder,zito,santana,sabathia,brown,pedro,schilling ,halladay,schmidt,johnson,
prior, wood,zambrano, clemens,sheets. those are just off of the top of my head I would place Johnson, Schmidt and the old Pedro(definately not the 2004 version) above Buehrle and Garcia. The others you mentioned are all aces which I place on a similar level to Garcia and Buehrle. These two have the disadvantage of pitching half the time in US Cellular Field and when you factor NL/AL and park factor, I think you will find that Garcia and Buehrle match up pretty well with most other "aces."

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:00 PM
I would place Johnson, Schmidt and the old Pedro(definately not the 2004 version) above Buehrle and Garcia. The others you mentioned are all aces which I place on a similar level to Garcia and Buehrle. These two have the disadvantage of pitching half the time in US Cellular Field and when you factor NL/AL and park factor, I think you will find that Garcia and Buehrle match up pretty well with most other "aces." *****! you gotta be kidding me! you would rather have buehrle or garcia instead of guys like sheets, prior, wood, or sabathia?

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 05:01 PM
pedro-1.80 ERA, sabathia-21 IP, 2.91 ERA, mulder-21 IP, 3.43 ERA, zito-21 IP, 2.7o ERA,halladay-1.13 ERA
The best you can come up with is a sample size of 21IP, and you're actually citing guys with <10IP? You realize how ridiculous you look doing that, especially when you're supposed to be one of the stat-happy Beanophiles?

Here's something for you: Garcia's 3-year USCF ERA: 3.54.

Garcia's overall ERA is better than Pedro's. His Road ERA is better than Pedro's. Neither is a very meaningful statistic, much like your selection of minimal IP counts to rate players as better than Garcia.

USCF ranks 3d in all of baseball as a hitters park. It ranks 2d in all of baseball as a HR hitters park. Go check your park-adjusted ERAs and see what it tells you about Freddy's performance.

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:03 PM
The best you can come up with is a sample size of 21IP, and you're actually citing guys with <10IP? You realize how ridiculous you look doing that, especially when you're supposed to be one of the stat-happy Beanophiles?

Here's something for you: Garcia's 3-year USCF ERA: 3.54.

Garcia's overall ERA is better than Pedro's. His Road ERA is better than Pedro's. Neither is a very meaningful statistic, much like your selection of minimal IP counts to rate players as better than Garcia.

USCF ranks 3d in all of baseball as a hitters park. It ranks 2d in all of baseball as a HR hitters park. Go check your park-adjusted ERAs and see what it tells you about Freddy's performance. see my post above for all of the SP's i would rather have than both of our guys.

OEO Magglio
08-11-2004, 05:04 PM
*****! you gotta be kidding me! you would rather have buehrle or garcia instead of guys like sheets, prior, wood, or sabathia?Lets see, Prior's era is over 5 right now, Sabathia has a higher era, less k's then freddy, wood has never won over 14 games, sheets has definitely been great this year but as of right now Freddy is definitely in the same category with all of those guys and better then most of them.

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 05:05 PM
*****! you gotta be kidding me! you would rather have buehrle or garcia instead of guys like sheets, prior, wood, or sabathia?
Just 1 example: Sabathia's 3-yr ERA is 4.14 with a .246BAA. Garcia's is 3.95 with the same BAA. Park factor, you say? Well, Freddy's road ERA is 4.14 to Sabathia's 4.44.

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 05:05 PM
see my post above for all of the SP's i would rather have than both of our guys.
Just because you'd rather have them, doesn't make them any better.

thepaulbowski
08-11-2004, 05:06 PM
pedro-1.80 ERA, sabathia-21 IP, 2.91 ERA, mulder-21 IP, 3.43 ERA, zito-21 IP, 2.7o ERA,halladay-1.13 ERA
These stats are prior to this year (renovation of the upper deck.) In other words, they are meaningless. Like comparing the stats in Houston year over year without taking into consideration the Astrodome compare to Minute Maid.

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:06 PM
Just 1 example: Sabathia's 3-yr ERA is 4.14 with a .246BAA. Garcia's is 3.95 with the same BAA. Park factor, you say? Well, Freddy's road ERA is 4.14 to Sabathia's 4.44.im just saying that if i had one game to pitch, regardless where the game is, i would take at least those 15 guys, if not more, over freddy and burly

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 05:06 PM
*****! you gotta be kidding me! you would rather have buehrle or garcia instead of guys like sheets, prior, wood, or sabathia?
If you had Sheets, Prior and Wood pitching in the AL, then their ERAs would certainly be higher. Combine that with the fact that they would have to pitch half the time in one of the hardest parks to pitch in the majors and their ERAs might all be near or over four. Wood and Sheets have had their most success when they are able to keep the ball in the yard and it's hard to do that at US Cellular Field. Sabathia's ERA right now is just the same as Buehrle's and he hardly pitches at the Cell, though Sabathia has had trouble at home. I would definately say that Buerhle is more proven and a slightly better pitcher than CC

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:07 PM
Just because you'd rather have them, doesn't make them any better. well, i guarantee that, if you put your bias aside, you will agree with me that you would rather have those guys

OEO Magglio
08-11-2004, 05:08 PM
well, i guarantee that, if you put your bias aside, you will agree with me that you would rather have those guysWhy is he being biased? Freddy has pitched better then most of those guys this year, you're the one being biased because you have something against KW.

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:09 PM
If you had Sheets, Prior and Wood pitching in the AL, then their ERAs would certainly be higher. Combine that with the fact that they would have to pitch half the time in one of the hardest parks to pitch in the majors and their ERAs might all be near or over four. Wood and Sheets have had their most success when they are able to keep the ball in the yard and it's hard to do that at US Cellular Field. Sabathia's ERA right now is just the same as Buehrle's and he hardly pitches at the Cell, though Sabathia has had trouble at home. I would definately say that Buerhle is more proven and a slightly better pitcher than CCi understand this board is biased as hell against the scrubs but *****! do you know the kind of talent that wood or prior have? yes, they have been ****ty at times, but in any given game EITHER one of them has the potential to throw a 2 hit shutout with 15 K's! our guys DO NOT have that kind of talent! sure buehrle and freddy are VERY good SP's, just not on the level of the guys i mentioned.

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:10 PM
Why is he being biased? Freddy has pitched better then most of those guys this year, you're the one being biased because you have something against KW. YES! ur absolutely right! i do have something against KW! and that is that he has NOT got the job done and needs to GO!

OEO Magglio
08-11-2004, 05:12 PM
i understand this board is biased as hell against the scrubs but *****! do you know the kind of talent that wood or prior have? yes, they have been ****ty at times, but in any given game EITHER one of them has the potential to throw a 2 hit shutout with 15 K's! our guys DO NOT have that kind of talent! sure buehrle and freddy are VERY good SP's, just not on the level of the guys i mentioned.Will you please explain to me how you came up with that?

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 05:12 PM
well, i guarantee that, if you put your bias aside, you will agree with me that you would rather have those guys
I'm sure that if you learned to interpret stats instead of just accepting them at face value that you'd sound more rational.

When will you just accept that US Cellular Field is a bandbox that's hard to pitch in? You need more stats?:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3289

Top 5 park factors:
1. Coors Field 1140
2. Fenway Park 1078
3. US Cellular Field 1073
4. Ameriquest Field at Arlington 1070
5. Oriole Park at Camden Yards 1056

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:14 PM
Will you please explain to me how you came up with that? 1 simple reason: their STUFF! both of those guys have absolutely FILTHY stuff. Freddy has filthy stuff too, but IMO, not like those guys. and burly's stuff doesnt come close

OEO Magglio
08-11-2004, 05:16 PM
1 simple reason: their STUFF! both of those guys have absolutely FILTHY stuff. Freddy has filthy stuff too, but IMO, not like those guys. and burly's stuff doesnt come closeFreddy has better stuff then Prior. Wood has always had great stuff but he's never won over 14 games, I could care less about Wood's stuff until he learns to win with that stuff.

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:16 PM
I'm sure that if you learned to interpret stats instead of just accepting them at face value that you'd sound more rational.

When will you just accept that US Cellular Field is a bandbox that's hard to pitch in? You need more stats?:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3289

Top 5 park factors:
1. Coors Field 1140
2. Fenway Park 1078
3. US Cellular Field 1073
4. Ameriquest Field at Arlington 1070
5. Oriole Park at Camden Yards 1056 yes i understand that! but did you see the stats for those SP's that i showed you? yes, some of them have VERY small Sample sizes, but guys like mulder, zito, and sabathia have all had three starts here against a pretty damn good offense I might add!:)

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:18 PM
Freddy has better stuff then Prior. Wood has always had great stuff but he's never won over 14 games, I could care less about Wood's stuff until he learns to win with that stuff. no way in HELL, freddy has better stuff than prior. when mark is on, even the pitches he throws for strikes are unhittable! and yes, ur right about wood, he has never lived up to his potential, but that is partly due to the fact that the scrubs have sucked the past few years. he has not gotten a lot of run support

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 05:20 PM
i understand this board is biased as hell against the scrubs but *****! do you know the kind of talent that wood or prior have? yes, they have been ****ty at times, but in any given game EITHER one of them has the potential to throw a 2 hit shutout with 15 K's! our guys DO NOT have that kind of talent! sure buehrle and freddy are VERY good SP's, just not on the level of the guys i mentioned.
Do you want to know why they have this "ability"? It's called pitching in the national league! When you have an easy out once every 9 hitters, that can translate into 3 extra strikeouts if a pitcher is having a great game. A 15 K game....hell a 13+ K game in the American League is very difficult and very rare due to the fact that you have to face 9 major league hitters instead of 8 in the national league. There has been ONE 13 K game in the AL this year and only 5 of 12+ and Johan Santana has four of them. There have been SIX 13+ K games in the NL this year and even an 18 K game.

And pitchability is not all about K's. Greg Maddux was one of the great pitchers of the past 15 years and he wasn't exactly a strikeout artist.

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 05:21 PM
well, i guarantee that, if you put your bias aside, you will agree with me that you would rather have those guys
Really? Let's take a look and see.....

Guys on your list I'd take over Freddy: Mulder, Santana, Schmidt, Prior, Sheets, Schilling, Halladay

Please note: None of these guys are or will be available for a couple of years

Guys I'd rate similar to Garcia: Zito (check his last 2 years), Sabathia, Brown (unreliable), Pedro (ditto), Johnson (age, injury), Zambrano, Wood, Clemens (age). Personally, I'd take him over all but Pedro, Johnson, Clemens, Zambrano for 1 year and over all but Zambrano for 2-3.

Given age, reliability, & performance, Garcia's not in the top 7-10 aces, but he's certainly in the next group. And at $9mil/yr, he's cheaper than most of the guys on this list are or will be.

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 05:22 PM
yes i understand that! but did you see the stats for those SP's that i showed you? yes, some of them have VERY small Sample sizes, but guys like mulder, zito, and sabathia have all had three starts here against a pretty damn good offense I might add!:)
I wont even discuss pitchers with that small of a sample size. We can start talking at 50 IP in the 2004 version of US Cellular field

OEO Magglio
08-11-2004, 05:22 PM
no way in HELL, freddy has better stuff than prior. when mark is on, even the pitches he throws for strikes are unhittable! and yes, ur right about wood, he has never lived up to his potential, but that is partly due to the fact that the scrubs have sucked the past few years. he has not gotten a lot of run supportPrior's stuff isn't dominating like some people believe. Does he have good stuff... no doubt but he was so great last year because he could locate his pitches anywhere he wanted to. Freddy has some of the best stuff in baseball, just ask Eric Chavez. Also this is a pretty pointless argument who cares about stuff, you have to know how to pitch to be a great pitcher, it doesn't matter how great your stuff is if you don't know how to use that stuff.

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 05:24 PM
I didn't want to come to this, but habibharu, you're a total idiot. Your bias against Kenny Williams makes it impossible for you to look at this team objectively and your attitude resembles a "the grass is greener on the other side" far too much. I'm not saying this based on just one thread either, but all of your posts are the same.

You :dtroll::dtroll::dtroll:

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:24 PM
Really? Let's take a look and see.....

Guys on your list I'd take over Freddy: Mulder, Santana, Schmidt, Prior, Sheets, Schilling, Halladay

Please note: None of these guys are or will be available for a couple of years

Guys I'd rate similar to Garcia: Zito (check his last 2 years), Sabathia, Brown (unreliable), Pedro (ditto), Johnson (age, injury), Zambrano, Wood, Clemens (age). Personally, I'd take him over all but Pedro, Johnson, Clemens, Zambrano for 1 year and over all but Zambrano for 2-3.

Given age, reliability, & performance, Garcia's not in the top 7-10 aces, but he's certainly in the next group. And at $9mil/yr, he's cheaper than most of the guys on this list are or will be. u dont understand what i am saying! im not talking about a real life situation here, where we have to take into account health, age,salary, etc. All i am saying is that if i had to win ONE game, i would take all of those pitchers over our two guys. Obviously, taking into account all of those things our guys move up the list because of old guys like clemens, schilling, and johnson

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:25 PM
I didn't want to come to this, but habibharu, you're a total idiot. Your bias against Kenny Williams makes it impossible for you to look at this team objectively and your attitude resembles a "the grass is greener on the other side" far too much.

You :dtroll::dtroll::dtroll: alright thats fine, u can say whatever u want. but ive said it before and ill say it again, this team IS NOT going to win **** under KW! i would be willing to bet anything at all on that!

santo=dorf
08-11-2004, 05:28 PM
Jon Rauch, the AAA closer, and KW bashers are like this thread.

:threadsucks

You realize that KW traded away a failed AL starter with arm problems whose traded value was lower after the GM came out publically and said he was available to any team who wanted him, and a career minor leaguer for a guy who was an all-star last year with two more years on his contract don't you?

And what's this BS about Freddy not being an ace? When the trade was made everyone on ESPN was talking about how he's a #1 and he was the best starter pitcher on the market. But according to you, he isn't.

What about acquiring a guy who when his stuff is on, he's unhittable for a pitcher whose ERA had gone up in 8 consecutive starts?

You were crying for KW to trade for a fifth starter, and he got the best pitcher on the market.

Yet it seems that once a week you have to kind a way to bash a man who's doing the best job he can do.
:dtroll:

jordan23ventura
08-11-2004, 05:28 PM
The Sox needed to get another bat and it made sense to go for it at the time the trade was made. With that said, I do think Rauch is going to be a decent MLB pitcher - I would have rather kept him and dealt Diaz (who also probably had more trade value).
I really don't think Diaz's value has depreciated all that much. He's been rock solid in Triple A and is one of the top pitching prospects in the Sox system. Now obviously he's blown up at the ML level, but in flashes he shows the ability to get people out. Another ML team could attribute his lack of sucess either to being not seasoned enough, more pressure, and/or poor player development. I'm not saying that either of those options are the case, but the point is that for a guy to be that dominant at Triple A he has to have potential. He's young and maybe a team like Milwaukee would find him to be very interesting.

Just an idea, but how aboiut revisiting the Ben Sheets deal in the offseason? Crede+Diaz+Borchard+Munoz for Sheets+Kolb??

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 05:30 PM
u dont understand what i am saying! im not talking about a real life situation here, where we have to take into account health, age,salary, etc. All i am saying is that if i had to win ONE game, i would take all of those pitchers over our two guys. Obviously, taking into account all of those things our guys move up the list because of old guys like clemens, schilling, and johnson
That's fine. In that case, I'd like to add Sandy Koufax circa 1963, Bob Gibson circa 1964, & Satchel Paige cira 1945. Wow, I wouldn't want Freddy over any of those guys for 1 game, he must really suck.

habibharu
08-11-2004, 05:31 PM
He's been rock solid in Triple A and is one of the top pitching prospects in the Sox system. that isnt saying too much!

jordan23ventura
08-11-2004, 06:04 PM
that isnt saying too much!
Just because I don't want to add to the list of people who are already arguing with you, I'll say this...

KW is the worst GM in history. Our farm system is terrible and that is only because JR is really an alien from planet Cubula, a distant body 9,000,000 light years away in Wrigley Galaxy - a future Tribune-owned galaxy. You see, the White Sox were actually supposed to win seven back-to-back world championships in a row, and 17 in a twenty year span which would cripple the Cubs franchise to the point of relocation to San Juan. But the President Sosa, determined to keep Chicago a Cubs town, decided to foil our attempts by sending a robot covered in human skin back in time to ruin everything. Ron Schueler was his henchman until people started to catch on. Then, he hired KW. As a result, we have no good prospects and never will and everybody sucks.

steff
08-11-2004, 06:07 PM
*****!

Holy cow.. you sure do need a lot of effing breaks. :cool:

maurice
08-11-2004, 06:52 PM
Somebody's been drinking too much cubbie coolaid. Their entire starting staff is a huge injury risk. That's what happens when in Dusty you trusty.

Potential and $1.50 get you a cup of coffee. MLB is all about results. Despite six years in the big leagues, Wood and his "stuff" have failed to produce even one solid season. (By contrast, Buehrle and Garcia have won 16+ games five times.) Prior was outstanding last season, but this year he's averaging less than five innings per start with a .500 record and a 5 ERA. The best starter on the cubs over the past two seasons has been crazy-ass, 23-year-old, $450K/year Carlos Zambrano.

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 07:02 PM
Despite six years in the big leagues, Wood and his "stuff" have failed to produce even one solid season. I'm going to have to dissagree with that. His rookie campaign was damn good for a rookie. 3.4 ERA and 12.56 K/9. That K/9 rate was just ridiculous and it's been so throughout his career, though not to that extent. He's really only had one bad season: 2000 when he was coming back from injury. Other than 2000 his career ERA is 3.39. I would say out of the 6 years in the bigs that 5 of them have been pretty solid to say the least for Wood. Wood has had the problem of being on teams that dont win many games. Even the two playoffs teams had only 90 and 88 wins respectively. There's no question that he's pretty fragile as he's only been able to pitch 30+ starts twice in his career, but you can't deny that he's a good pitcher, whether or not you like him or the team he plays for.

It's just that those numbers would obviously not be as gaudy if he had to pitch 100 innings a year in US Cellular Field and they might not even look as good as Garcia's or Buehrle's.

The best proof of this is Mike Hampton's ERA increasing by 2 runs moving to Colorado and decreasing by 2 runs once he left.

maurice
08-11-2004, 07:13 PM
His rookie campaign was damn good for a rookie.
That's not the issue. A 13-6 record with a 3.40 ERA in the NL might be damn good for a rookie, but it does not a "solid season" make, particularly when you compare it to, say, Garcia's 2001 season (18-6 with a 3.05 ERA in the AL).

To put things in perspective, in any given year, scores of pitchers win more than 13 games. No AL starter currently has an ERA under 3.15, but ten starters in the NL do. It's nice to be able to pitch to pitchers and PHs, instead of DHs.

MRKARNO
08-11-2004, 07:17 PM
That's not the issue. A 13-6 record with a 3.40 ERA in the NL might be damn good for a rookie, but it does not a "solid season" make, particularly when you compare it to, say, Garcia's 2001 season (18-6 with a 3.05 ERA in the AL).

Well as far as Garcia's 2001 is concerned, I don't call that solid. I call that excellent. He led the AL in ERA IIRC. If top 3 in the league is what you call solid, then our definitions differ, but I'd call a 4 ERA in the AL a solid year and a 3.5 in the NL a solid year. It's not a difference of opinion, just in definition.

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 07:23 PM
You realize that KW traded away a failed AL starter with arm problems whose traded value was lower after the GM came out publically and said he was available to any team who wanted him, and a career minor leaguer for a guy who was an all-star last year with two more years on his contract don't you?

Haha. Well just to clarify KW is the same GM who lowered Rauch's trade value, no? Also, what's your definition of failed? Do you need one major league start? Or four? Just so I know.

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 07:25 PM
Don't feed the :dtroll:

Jabrch, I get the impression 2,000 of your posts include crap like that. If you don't have anything to say about baseball, why post?

SEALgep
08-11-2004, 07:27 PM
Haha. Well just to clarify KW is the same GM who lowered Rauch's trade value, no? Also, what's your definition of failed? Do you need one major league start? Or four? Just so I know.Rauch lowered his trade value himself.

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 07:34 PM
I would place Johnson, Schmidt and the old Pedro(definately not the 2004 version) above Buehrle and Garcia. The others you mentioned are all aces which I place on a similar level to Garcia and Buehrle. These two have the disadvantage of pitching half the time in US Cellular Field and when you factor NL/AL and park factor, I think you will find that Garcia and Buehrle match up pretty well with most other "aces."

Man. I like Buehrle a lot and Garcia is a good starter but I think you need a better explanation than park effects to put them in the class with the aforementioned starters. You listed the park factors yourself. The Cell is 1.07 (based on a small sample size) which would make a 3.8 ERA 3.67. That's not quite night and day. Buehrle's very good and I consider him a number one with Garcia not so far behind but that doesn't put him on a level with Schilling or Santana. Zito and Clemens are probably the only two players on the list I wouldn't consider significantly better than Buehrle/Garcia in terms of ability.

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 07:36 PM
Rauch lowered his trade value himself.

Really? I missed the leak he gave the press about the incident or the press conference where he told other clubs he would be traded.

OEO Magglio
08-11-2004, 07:37 PM
Man. I like Buehrle a lot and Garcia is a good starter but I think you need a better explanation than park effects to put them in the class with the aforementioned starters. You listed the park factors yourself. The Cell is 1.07 (based on a small sample size) which would make a 3.8 ERA 3.67. That's not quite night and day. Buehrle's very good and I consider him a number one with Garcia not so far behind but that doesn't put him on a level with Schilling or Santana. Zito and Clemens are probably the only two players on the list I wouldn't consider significantly better than Buehrle/Garcia in terms of ability.Jeremy, could you please explain to me how you determined that sabathia, wood, prior, and sheets are significantly better then Freddy?

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 07:39 PM
The best you can come up with is a sample size of 21IP, and you're actually citing guys with <10IP? You realize how ridiculous you look doing that, especially when you're supposed to be one of the stat-happy Beanophiles?

Here's something for you: Garcia's 3-year USCF ERA: 3.54.

Garcia's overall ERA is better than Pedro's. His Road ERA is better than Pedro's. Neither is a very meaningful statistic, much like your selection of minimal IP counts to rate players as better than Garcia.

USCF ranks 3d in all of baseball as a hitters park. It ranks 2d in all of baseball as a HR hitters park. Go check your park-adjusted ERAs and see what it tells you about Freddy's performance.

Flight, how are you complaining about sample sizes and then basing your opinions of Garcia as a pitcher on 120 innings? Furthermore, Garcia's three year Cell numbers aren't much more significant than his four starts there this season or the other guys' two starts there this season. Finally, using '04 park effects to evaluate '02 performances when the stadium has underwent substantial renovations is a major no no.

balke
08-11-2004, 07:45 PM
Flight, how are you complaining about sample sizes and then basing your opinions of Garcia as a pitcher on 120 innings? Furthermore, Garcia's three year Cell numbers aren't much more significant than his four starts there this season or the other guys' two starts there this season. Finally, using '04 park effects to evaluate '02 performances when the stadium has underwent substantial renovations is a major no no.

I'm out of the argument, cause this is the only part I read, but I can say that those upper deck seats they took out up top behind homeplate, seem to help the ball carry some. Me and my buddies were talkin about that earlier this season at a sox/twinky game.

Flight #24
08-11-2004, 07:57 PM
Flight, how are you complaining about sample sizes and then basing your opinions of Garcia as a pitcher on 120 innings? Furthermore, Garcia's three year Cell numbers aren't much more significant than his four starts there this season or the other guys' two starts there this season. Finally, using '04 park effects to evaluate '02 performances when the stadium has underwent substantial renovations is a major no no.
Did you miss the part where I said the #s had minimal to no relevance? I was citing them as examples of the ridiculousness of habibharu's "arguments.

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 08:03 PM
Jeremy, could you please explain to me how you determined that sabathia, wood, prior, and sheets are significantly better then Freddy?

Well, rereading my post I was admittedly a little all over the place. I don't think all of those guys are better players to have on your club and better pitchers than Garcia. There are two ways to evaluate the issue. Simply the ability of the pitcher and the value of having the player on your club. Someone like Sabathia probably isn't clearly a better pitcher but he's a much, much better comodity, which in my opinion is the critical way to evaluate the issue.

Sabathia, Prior, and Sheets' career numbers aren't significantly better than Freddy's but they're younger meaning they figure to improve more in the future than Garcia. Sabathia is 24 and pitchers tend to hit their peak around 26 to 28 so he's performed more or less as well as Garcia up until this point and he figures to take substantial steps forward the past few seasons. Sheets is 26 and it's obviously going to be quite difficult for him to improve too much on his performance from this season but since he's in his prime he could keep it up and he can slip some from and still be tons better than Garcia over the next couple years. The guy has an ERA in the 2s.

The other key with those three young guys is that they're young enough that they're still very inexpensive. Garcia is averaging nine million over the next few seasons. Sabathia by comarison has a ridiculous extension. He only makes 2.45 million this season and averages just 5.75 million (less than we'll be paying Contreras) over the next couple seasons. Sheets makes just 2.4 million this season and doesn't figure to make too close to 9 million next season. Prior cost the Cubs a ton with his signing bonus but he's making just 3 million this season.

On purely a performance level, this is mostly issues that've been rehashed repeatedly at this point. Garcia's 28 and despite spending the last several seasons in an extreme pitchers park the last few years he's only had one and two thirds seasons that he's resembled a number one starter. Neither of those seasons have been on the same planet as Sheet's astounding '04 and Prior's '03. There's a lot of talk about the Cell's park effects but how many games has he pitched there? 5 or 6? He pitched a lot more at Safeco which is every bit as much a pitchers' park as the Cell is a hitters' park so any effects there have been negated. At best his two best seasons have been as good as ever season but Woods '00 when he returned from Tommy John surgery. I can see how if you look at Garcia in the best possible light - as an ace who had nearly half of his career marred by an ear injury and did not benefit from Safeco - he's as good as these guys but he's not better and I'm not inclined to look at him in that severely optimistic light.

jeremyb1
08-11-2004, 08:04 PM
Did you miss the part where I said the #s had minimal to no relevance? I was citing them as examples of the ridiculousness of habibharu's "arguments.

Apparently. I think it's still pretty important to note though in case anyone else missed it.

jordan23ventura
08-12-2004, 02:22 AM
Somebody's been drinking too much cubbie coolaid. Their entire starting staff is a huge injury risk. That's what happens when in Dusty you trusty.

Potential and $1.50 get you a cup of coffee. MLB is all about results. Despite six years in the big leagues, Wood and his "stuff" have failed to produce even one solid season. (By contrast, Buehrle and Garcia have won 16+ games five times.) Prior was outstanding last season, but this year he's averaging less than five innings per start with a .500 record and a 5 ERA. The best starter on the cubs over the past two seasons has been crazy-ass, 23-year-old, $450K/year Carlos Zambrano.
Prior will get it together some time, but as of right now Zambrano and Clement are the guys that the Cubs are going to have to go to when it counts.

Hopefully though, it never will count and the Cubs will choke against Atlanta during the seasons final games in October and lose the wildcard to Philly, while the Sox go on to post one of the most miraculous combacks in history to win the division by one game in the last game of the season. Then, they go on to the ALCS and WIN in game 7 and all the reporters that can't tell you a dman thing about the White Sox have to turn themselves into Sox fans all throughout the postseason. Ahh, poetic justice indeed.

jordan23ventura
08-12-2004, 02:26 AM
Prior will get it together some time, but as of right now Zambrano and Clement are the guys that the Cubs are going to have to go to when it counts.

Hopefully though, it never will count and the Cubs will choke against Atlanta during the seasons final games in October and lose the wildcard to Philly, while the Sox go on to post one of the most miraculous combacks in history to win the division by one game in the last game of the season. Then, they go on to the ALCS and WIN in game 7 and all the reporters that can't tell you a dman thing about the White Sox have to turn themselves into Sox fans all throughout the postseason. Ahh, poetic justice indeed.And even better! Dusty Baker and Sammy Sosa talk to the media following a 3 game sweep to Atlanta and discuss how the season ended in utter disappointment. Then, both men (in different interviews) each look DIRECTLY into the camera and wish the Sox good luck in the postseason!

I think if that happened I'd buy a beer for every Cubs fan I know, then drink it for them in celebration of their pathetic sadness.

jordan23ventura
08-12-2004, 02:33 AM
And even better! Dusty Baker and Sammy Sosa talk to the media following a 3 game sweep to Atlanta and discuss how the season ended in utter disappointment. Then, both men (in different interviews) each look DIRECTLY into the camera and wish the Sox good luck in the postseason!

I think if that happened I'd buy a beer for every Cubs fan I know, then drink it for them in celebration of their pathetic sadness.Then, during an intimate massage session, Jay "I'm a Dead Ringer for Joey Buttafuco" Moronotti sympathizes with Sammy Sosa by telling him that it's okay to be a loser, as he's been one all his life. After that, he drops a bombshell. He's cheating on Sammy with.... LaTroy Hawkins??

Sammy: "I can't believe you! He told me he hated the media!"

Man Soo Lee
08-12-2004, 02:54 AM
The other key with those three young guys is that they're young enough that they're still very inexpensive.
Which is why they are virtually impossible to acquire. If you want good, cheap starting pitchers, you better draft and develop them. If you don't, you'll have to pay for them.

Or if you don't draft or pay them, you can just cross your fingers that it's going to be Jon Garland's breakthrough year and then wonder why you're in second place again.

Aidan
08-12-2004, 05:43 AM
Which is why they are virtually impossible to acquire. If you want good, cheap starting pitchers, you better draft and develop them. If you don't, you'll have to pay for them.

Or if you don't draft or pay them, you can just cross your fingers that it's going to be Jon Garland's breakthrough year and then wonder why you're in second place again.Excellent point. How long do you think the Twins are going to be able to keep Johan Santana? Once that guy hits free agency and wants $10+ million a season, the Twins won't be able to afford him. He is probably the best starting pitcher in the A.L. with Mulder a close second.

Flight #24
08-12-2004, 10:35 AM
The other key with those three young guys is that they're young enough that they're still very inexpensive. Garcia is averaging nine million over the next few seasons. Sabathia by comarison has a ridiculous extension. He only makes 2.45 million this season and averages just 5.75 million (less than we'll be paying Contreras) over the next couple seasons. Sheets makes just 2.4 million this season and doesn't figure to make too close to 9 million next season. Prior cost the Cubs a ton with his signing bonus but he's making just 3 million this season.


That's fine, and I'd certainly agree that having a comparable pitcher at a lower price is better(setting aside the debate about who's better, I think we'd agree that they're in the same ballpark). The problem is that that's not an option. Cleveland certainly isn't looking to trade Sabathia. I find it highly unlikely that Milwaukee was ever looking to trade Sheets. Prior aint going nowhere until possibly FA.

When those pitchers become available, short of a major economic change in baseball, I'll bet they make at least what Freddy's making. If you have a young ace, it lets you do other things with $$$. If you don't have one, you need to get one if you want to have a realistic shot at a WS.

RKMeibalane
08-12-2004, 11:16 PM
Jeremy, could you please explain to me how you determined that sabathia, wood, prior, and sheets are significantly better then Freddy?
Just ignore him. Jeremey still has problems expressing his thoughts and ideas to other people.

infohawk
08-19-2004, 05:35 PM
i think that the second everett deal is gonna come back to haunt us. given a consistent chance in Mtl. I think that rauch is gonna be a pretty decent 4th or 5th starter(he already beat petitte and the stros!) , and I know that majewski has been bouncing around throughout his career, but he has closer stuff. and everett isnt exacltly lighting the world on fire either. also i think that this deal is gonna hurt us financially, since everett is probably gonna take his 4.5 mil option next yr. and prevent us from signing a "grinder" like Cat or hairston. but what else can you expect when a moron like KW is running your team?!!!:angry: :angry: :angry:
I don't believe Rauch fits in with KW's plans. Diaz may in fact be headed for the bullpen. KW is clearly looking to build the team around a dominant starting rotation. Going into the season we had Buehrle and Loaiza as the "anchors" to the rotation. Many of us were hopeful Loaiza would continue as an effective pitcher, even if not a 20 game winner. It quickly became evident that his "stuff" just wasn't as good. That left Buehrle. KW went out and got Garcia and Contreras. Garcia, Contreras and Buehrle make a pretty formidable front three. KW will have some money to spend over the winter and will most probably target a quality starter. Remember, KW has repeatedly stated that when acquiring a pitcher, he isn't looking for a #5 type guy. He wants to acquire frontline starters in any moves. I believe he will get one over the winter. Garland would then become the #5 starter where he should excel. It is possible that Garland and Diaz might have to battle it out for the 5th spot during spring training. I wouldn't be surprised if KW acquired two pitchers over the winter and then traded Garland alone or in a package to address other needs. I am getting excited about the prospect of having a deep rotation. In my opinion, the Sox haven't had that kind of a rotation since 1994 when they ran McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere and I think Belcher out there. There would be no room in the 2005 rotation for Rauch.

santo=dorf
08-19-2004, 05:42 PM
Haha. Well just to clarify KW is the same GM who lowered Rauch's trade value, no? Also, what's your definition of failed? Do you need one major league start? Or four? Just so I know.

How long was he with the organization? Rauch brings nothing to the table, and he was worth little before he decided to walk out on his team. Maybe I should not have used the word "failed," but unproven. We don't have time to try and develop pitchers with arm problems while we are in a pennant chase while starving for some offensive help.

TheBull19
08-20-2004, 04:29 PM
An ace is somebody who can go out and pitch effectively throughout a year of 33-35 starts year in and year out. Someone you can count on to give you 220+ IP a year, consistently pitch 7+ innings a game, and win games. Though great stuff and lots of strikeouts can help a pitcher to those goals, stamina and location, keeping hitters off balance are more important. By those standards, Buerhle and Garcia clearly suit the definition of aces more than Prior, Wood, Sheets, Sabathia, etc. Yeah, its great those guys can throw 2 hit, 18 K shutouts occassionaly, but I'd rather have a couple of guys who make their 34 starts, average their 230 IP and win more games. Obviously, you can't compare them to guys like Johnson and Clemens, but who can? I'd rather have a couple of guys in their 20's anyway.