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WSox8404
08-10-2004, 01:27 PM
Well I have spoken with my source in depth yesterday and I grilled him about next year for about five minutes. This is what I got out of him. We are going to try to trade Konerko. He said they want to do this because we have way too many right handed hitters. He also said that if Crede does not start listening to Walker, he is as good as gone. If this happens, he said to expect to see Uribe at third. As for Jose.....HE GONE!!! He said he does not think that there is any way in hell they are going to resign him. Then I asked him if there is any way we will go after someone such as Matt Clement. He said that there was a good possibility of something like this happening.

Overall I think this is great news. We are trying to build the team through the pitching staff. If we can add a Clement type pitcher, our rotation would be unreal. Garland as a number 5? A lot of teams wouldn't mind having him as their number 3. As for Konerko and Crede. I would miss Konerko, but not Crede. I guess Crede is a stubborn punk, and we don't need people like that. And as for Jose, thank God he is not coming back. As many of you know I hate him, so this is outstanding news to me. 5 or 6 million for him? No way. I will give further news as I get it. I might have somemore today. I will most likely see my source again later on today.

Palehose13
08-10-2004, 01:29 PM
So who's at first and who's at SS?

WSox8404
08-10-2004, 01:31 PM
So who's at first and who's at SS?
He didn't say who they were going to go after. Just who ain't coming back. I will try and ask him about possible replacements today.

bafiarocks03
08-10-2004, 01:32 PM
omg if any of that happens....they can't trade Paul......thats just nuts!!!!....same with Crede

gosox41
08-10-2004, 01:33 PM
So who's at first and who's at SS?
I know who our 1B should be:


Scew it, I can find the picture. But our first baseman next year should be Frank Thomas.



Bob

Brian26
08-10-2004, 01:34 PM
None of this information is earth shattering or even beyond what most of us are already thinking. Most of the people who were here this winter know that Konerko was almost dealt anyway. He's done a great job of strengthening his trade value this year, and he surely is possible trade bait. I think there is definitely a chance to sign Jose, and I have a feeling we're going to try to do it since we have nobody to replace him. The Crede "news" isn't news at all. This is year 4 of the Crede-experiment, and if he doesn't get it together, I expect he might be on his way out too.

gosox41
08-10-2004, 01:34 PM
Well I have spoken with my source in depth yesterday and I grilled him about next year for about five minutes. This is what I got out of him. We are going to try to trade Konerko. He said they want to do this because we have way too many right handed hitters. He also said that if Crede does not start listening to Walker, he is as good as gone. If this happens, he said to expect to see Uribe at third. As for Jose.....HE GONE!!! He said he does not think that there is any way in hell they are going to resign him. Then I asked him if there is any way we will go after someone such as Matt Clement. He said that there was a good possibility of something like this happening.

Overall I think this is great news. We are trying to build the team through the pitching staff. If we can add a Clement type pitcher, our rotation would be unreal. Garland as a number 5? A lot of teams wouldn't mind having him as their number 3. As for Konerko and Crede. I would miss Konerko, but not Crede. I guess Crede is a stubborn punk, and we don't need people like that. And as for Jose, thank God he is not coming back. As many of you know I hate him, so this is outstanding news to me. 5 or 6 million for him? No way. I will give further news as I get it. I might have somemore today. I will most likely see my source again later on today.
What about Magglio? Is he as good as gone?


Bob

Brian26
08-10-2004, 01:35 PM
By the way, Jose has 26 homers...and MANY of them have been damn meaningful. He's about as opposite of "garbage-time" as a guy can get.

WSox8404
08-10-2004, 01:36 PM
What about Magglio? Is he as good as gone?


Bob
He said that since his value went down a little, they are going to try to resign him again.

Flight #24
08-10-2004, 01:36 PM
So who's at first and who's at SS?
In that scenario, I wouldn't mind seeing Carlos move to 1B and signing a guy like Catalanotto who can provide solid OBP in LF. Or maybe even a JD Drew if they have more $$$.

At SS, you can then go get one of a number of solid veterans who won't hit great, but can move guys along & play solid D.

However, bullpen is IMO the area of biggest need. The Twins win in a large part because of their pen. If you can shut teams down in the 7th - 9th, that's a huge asset.

WSox8404
08-10-2004, 01:37 PM
None of this information is earth shattering or even beyond what most of us are already thinking. Most of the people who were here this winter know that Konerko was almost dealt anyway. He's done a great job of strengthening his trade value this year, and he surely is possible trade bait. I think there is definitely a chance to sign Jose, and I have a feeling we're going to try to do it since we have nobody to replace him. The Crede "news" isn't news at all. This is year 4 of the Crede-experiment, and if he doesn't get it together, I expect he might be on his way out too.
What you fail to understand is that we do not want Jose back. We could sign him if we wanted to, but my source said that we do not want to have him back. Jose is not coming back.

RKMeibalane
08-10-2004, 01:37 PM
So who's at first and who's at SS?
I would think that Frank could play first base two or three times a week, and someone else could be brought in to play the remaining games. I'd like to see the Sox go after Edgar Renteria to play SS, but that's probably not going to happen.

Palehose13
08-10-2004, 01:37 PM
However, bullpen is IMO the area of biggest need. The Twins win in a large part because of their pen. If you can shut teams down in the 7th - 9th, that's a huge asset.
Agreed.

bobj4400
08-10-2004, 01:38 PM
By the way, Jose has 26 homers...and MANY of them have been damn meaningful. He's about as opposite of "garbage-time" as a guy can get.
Brian-
I normally agree with most of your posts...this one is an exception. Where have the meaningful hits been since the all-star break? I think a .136 average since the break when the Sox really needed someone to step up is a large indictment of valentin's ability...

Palehose13
08-10-2004, 01:39 PM
What you fail to understand is that we do not want Jose back. We could sign him if we wanted to, but my source said that we do not want to have him back. Jose is not coming back.
I don't see why not with a drastic pay cut. He's not worth 5 mil, but maybe 2???

I wish Crede would have went to Seattle instead of MO, but I am starting to like Big Ben.

SoxxoS
08-10-2004, 01:40 PM
omg if any of that happens....they can't trade Paul......thats just nuts!!!!....same with Crede
Yes they can? What part about Crede is untouchable. His one good 2nd half where he had a .810 OPS? They can both go, but Pauly would be hard to handle. He has done nothing wrong this season.

Palehose13
08-10-2004, 01:41 PM
omg if any of that happens....they can't trade Paul......thats just nuts!!!!....same with Crede
LOL...if it were up to you we would have the same guys for twenty years. IIRC, you're a youngin' and I remember how I was attached to players on the '80's teams. Soon you'll get used to the movement of guys. Fortunately for me, my favorite player stayed on the Sox for a loooong time and is now manager. :smile:

Brian26
08-10-2004, 01:42 PM
Brian-
I normally agree with most of your posts...this one is an exception. Where have the meaningful hits been since the all-star break? I think a .136 average since the break when the Sox really needed someone to step up is a large indictment of valentin's ability...

Well, I said most of his homers have been meaningful...meaning he's a clutch guy. He had two clutch homers last night that single-handidly almost brought us back to win it. He had a huge clutch homer to tie the game late in Oakland on June 1. He had the walk-off homer to beat the tribe at home on June 22.

No doubt he's been slumping a little since the break - no argument from you. Just saying it's hard to replace 26 homers at shortstop. Especially when he does it in the clutch so often.

Brian26
08-10-2004, 01:43 PM
What you fail to understand is that we do not want Jose back. We could sign him if we wanted to, but my source said that we do not want to have him back. Jose is not coming back.

I'm curious why they don't want him back without having anyone readily lined up to take his place.

SoxxoS
08-10-2004, 01:44 PM
Well, I said most of his homers have been meaningful...meaning he's a clutch guy. He had two clutch homers last night that single-handidly almost brought us back to win it. He had a huge clutch homer to tie the game late in Oakland on June 1. He had the walk-off homer to beat the tribe at home on June 22.

No doubt he's been slumping a little since the break - no argument from you. Just saying it's hard to replace 26 homers at shortstop. Especially when he does it in the clutch so often.
I agree, and I was a Jose Valentin advocate. I have recently come to my senses and realized he is just too inconsistant. I wouldn't mind too much if he comes back, b/c you have to remember the options. Sure, Jose can go, but who is going to replace him? Kelly Dransfeldt? And don't fall into the trap of thinking Uribe isn't a step down from Valentin, b/c he definitely is.

soxrme
08-10-2004, 01:44 PM
In that scenario, I wouldn't mind seeing Carlos move to 1B and signing a guy like Catalanotto who can provide solid OBP in LF. Or maybe even a JD Drew if they have more $$$.

At SS, you can then go get one of a number of solid veterans who won't hit great, but can move guys along & play solid D.

However, bullpen is IMO the area of biggest need. The Twins win in a large part because of their pen. If you can shut teams down in the 7th - 9th, that's a huge asset.I agree that Carlos should go to first, and that we possibly could get Cabrera at short. Our bullpen is a major problem that has to be addressed. Signing Maggs would be a big bonus. Would Sweeney or Anderson be ready for left??

Wealz
08-10-2004, 01:45 PM
Part of the problem with letting Valentin go is that they'd have to upgrade at another position to make for the offense he gives you. Yes, I can live with Uribe at short, if they sign Beltran for center or Beltre at third.

bobj4400
08-10-2004, 01:46 PM
Well, I said most of his homers have been meaningful...meaning he's a clutch guy. He had two clutch homers last night that single-handidly almost brought us back to win it. He had a huge clutch homer to tie the game late in Oakland on June 1. He had the walk-off homer to beat the tribe at home on June 22.

No doubt he's been slumping a little since the break - no argument from you. Just saying it's hard to replace 26 homers at shortstop. Especially when he does it in the clutch so often.
Even while I was sitting at the game last night, I didnt feel that those homers were exactly meaningful. I didnt think they were going to win at any point last night. It just seemed that they were pulling what I have come to call a 'Sox' or 'Garland' which is playing/pitching just well enough to lose...

That's why I didnt really feel those homers he hit last night were all the 'clutch.' I will give you the one in Oakland though and the ones he hit against the Cubs/Twins in 02 and 03...

RKMeibalane
08-10-2004, 01:47 PM
I'm curious why they don't want him back without having anyone readily lined up to take his place.
Maybe they're making a run at Edgar Renteria.

bobj4400
08-10-2004, 01:48 PM
Maybe they're making a run at Edgar Renteria.
Or Nomar...

Brian26
08-10-2004, 01:49 PM
Maybe they're making a run at Edgar Renteria.

Ah, that would be impossible since the Cubs are going to sign both Renteria AND Nomar next year. :D:

Wealz
08-10-2004, 01:50 PM
One other thing, if they are going to deal Konerko they should also deal Lee and don't wait for the offseason to do it. If they can offload even half of the $15M owed next year to those two that would be a great move. Possible destinations right now I'd think include the Braves and Angels for Konerko and the Padres and Phillies (Burrell being gone for the year) for Lee.

bobj4400
08-10-2004, 01:54 PM
One other thing, if they are going to deal Konerko they should also deal Lee and don't wait for the offseason to do it. If they can offload even half of the $15M owed next year to those two that would be a great move. Possible destinations right now I'd think include the Braves and Angels for Konerko and the Padres and Phillies (Burrell being gone for the year) for Lee.
Lee probably doesnt clear waivers...Konerko might.

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 01:55 PM
I don't see why not with a drastic pay cut. He's not worth 5 mil, but maybe 2???

I wish Crede would have went to Seattle instead of MO, but I am starting to like Big Ben.
IIRC, the story was that the M's wanted Crede and Mo, but they took Reed instead of Crede.

fledgedrallycap
08-10-2004, 01:57 PM
Could Everett pick-up a first baseman's mit?

Palehose13
08-10-2004, 01:58 PM
IIRC, the story was that the M's wanted Crede and Mo, but they took Reed instead of Crede.
Ohhhhhh...I see now.

Jjav829
08-10-2004, 01:58 PM
Could Everett pick-up a first baseman's mit?
Yes. But he'd better drop it as soon as he picks it up. I'm sure he wouldn't have any problem dropping it though.

Frater Perdurabo
08-10-2004, 01:59 PM
If Konerko is dealt (perhaps to New York for Lofton and more), then perhaps Maggs can be re-signed at a mutually agreeable but reduced price (due to deflated demand for his services at a high price because of injury concerns). I think this could be a win-win for the Sox. Lofton could platoon in CF with Rowand. As Flight #24 said, free agent Catalanotto would add OBP and could play 2B, with Lee moving to first and Everett to left. Plus, I think Crede WILL start to listen to Walker if he realizes that his future is on the line. If not, options remain.

The lineup could be: Lofton/Rowand (CF), Cat (2B), Maggs (RF), Frank (DH), Lee (1B), Everett (LF), Crede (3B), Uribe (SS), Davis/Burke (C). Not bad at all.

the_valenstache
08-10-2004, 02:03 PM
As long as we keep Jose's mustache, I'll be OK with seeing him go.

In all seriousness - and maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here - but does anyone else envision us trading away Paulie and him subsequently becoming Jim Thome? I know he runs like a statue, but once Frank retires (God/Allah/Zeppelin forbid) we're going to miss that power. If equal returns are given, I can see it making sense, but I think Paulie has taken a turn towards the more consistent this season. This has great potential to blow up in all of our faces. As it would if we kept him and he went back to hitting .183 before/after the AS break.

Contract-wise, how much would Paulie potentially bog us down? I'm not as familiar with the payroll as most posters here.

I_Liked_Manuel
08-10-2004, 02:03 PM
By the way, Jose has 26 homers...and MANY of them have been damn meaningful. He's about as opposite of "garbage-time" as a guy can get.
i can only think of about 4 that have been meaningful, 2 coming last night

bobj4400
08-10-2004, 02:03 PM
If Konerko is dealt (perhaps to New York for Lofton and more), then perhaps Maggs can be re-signed at a mutually agreeable but reduced price (due to deflated demand for his services at a high price because of injury concerns). I think this could be a win-win for the Sox. Lofton could platoon in CF with Rowand. As Flight #24 said, free agent Catalanotto would add OBP and could play 2B, with Lee moving to first and Everett to left. Plus, I think Crede WILL start to listen to Walker if he realizes that his future is on the line. If not, options remain.

The lineup could be: Lofton/Rowand (CF), Cat (2B), Maggs (RF), Frank (DH), Lee (1B), Everett (LF), Crede (3B), Uribe (SS), Davis/Burke (C). Not bad at all.
Dont we have enough over the hill, ex-Indians on our roster without bringing Lofton back? Maybe we should see if Eddie Murray has anything left in the tank as well...

Flight #24
08-10-2004, 02:09 PM
If Konerko is dealt (perhaps to New York for Lofton and more), then perhaps Maggs can be re-signed at a mutually agreeable but reduced price (due to deflated demand for his services at a high price because of injury concerns). I think this could be a win-win for the Sox. Lofton could platoon in CF with Rowand. As Flight #24 said, free agent Catalanotto would add OBP and could play 2B, with Lee moving to first and Everett to left. Plus, I think Crede WILL start to listen to Walker if he realizes that his future is on the line. If not, options remain.

The lineup could be: Lofton/Rowand (CF), Cat (2B), Maggs (RF), Frank (DH), Lee (1B), Everett (LF), Crede (3B), Uribe (SS), Davis/Burke (C). Not bad at all.
You'd better have that deal all lined up with Maggs before making that trade. He may still opt to test the market, and you could lose him anyway. I'd also like to think you could get a lot more for a power hitting 1B with solid D and avg than an OF on his last legs who's had trouble putting together complete seasons the past couple of years. The Yanks also don't ahve much else to give outside of C Navarro, who's a good but not great prospect, IIRC.

I'd much rather do a deal of Koney to Baltimore for Hairston+BJ Ryan or something. If Crede's got trade value, I could see moving him. But I dont' think he' got that much right now, and since he's cheap I thik it'd be better to platoon him with Uribe and see who can improve under Walker's tutelage first.

If (big if), you can retain Maggs and deal Koney for Hairston+Ryan, you have a very nice team:Hairston (2B) - Rowand (CF) - Thomas (DH) - Maggs (RF) - Lee (1B) - Catalanotto (LF) - Crede/Uribe (3B) - Davis/Burke (C) - SS. Add that to a rotation of Garcia-Buehrle-Contreras-Garland-Diaz/Cotts//veteran and a pen of Cotts/Ryan/Marte/Shingo/Veteran

For SS, you can go a lot of ways, in that lineup you could probably even keep Valentin and bat him ahead of Crede. He seems to do pretty well with men on base ahead of him (due likely to getting better pitches to hit), and I think he'll resign relatively cheaply (3mil/yr).

MRKARNO
08-10-2004, 02:16 PM
If we intend to get rid of Crede and Valentin, then it becomes imparitive that we bring in a good SS or 3B via free agency. Uribe can play the other position at a decent level. It would be absolutely terrible however if our 2b, SS, 3b situation only had Uribe, Harris, Alomar and Wilson Valdez in the picture.

In addition, if we're getting rid of Konerko and moving Lee to first, then I'd like to see a high average/decent power guy in left.

Free Agents I think we should go after for whatever reason:
Bret Boone-M's have a club option, but if he does go on the FA market, he'd be a nice pickup
Frank Catalanotto
Scott Williamson
Troy Glaus
Jason Varitek
JD Drew
Russ Ortiz
Matt Clement
Todd Walker
Armando Benitez
Carl Pavano
Odalis Perez
Adrian Beltre
Felix Rodriguez
Steve Kline

The Tom
08-10-2004, 02:29 PM
I agree that Carlos should go to first, and that we possibly could get Cabrera at short. Our bullpen is a major problem that has to be addressed. Signing Maggs would be a big bonus. Would Sweeney or Anderson be ready for left??
Sweeney is a couple years away, and Anderson may be a stretch as well. If Anderson is ready, however, he'll be in CF and Rowand or whoever will have to move to left. Anderson's defense in the middle is outstanding.

cornball
08-10-2004, 02:33 PM
I agree for next season PK and Jose should go. I like PK, but my guess would be for a left handed hitting 1B with better speed.

Jose just needs to go.

I don't think Crede would leave based on his good defense and he is cheap. He has hit in the past and seems to be a head case now.

Win1ForMe
08-10-2004, 02:41 PM
Well I have spoken with my source in depth yesterday and I grilled him about next year for about five minutes. This is what I got out of him. We are going to try to trade Konerko. He said they want to do this because we have way too many right handed hitters. He also said that if Crede does not start listening to Walker, he is as good as gone. If this happens, he said to expect to see Uribe at third. As for Jose.....HE GONE!!! He said he does not think that there is any way in hell they are going to resign him. Then I asked him if there is any way we will go after someone such as Matt Clement. He said that there was a good possibility of something like this happening.
Matt Clement on the White Sox? Two words: Arm trouble.

Matt Clement on any other team? Two words: Perfectly fine.

I would be hesitant with Clement, I have no idea how his elbow doesn't fall off with that delivery.

fledgedrallycap
08-10-2004, 02:41 PM
Yes. But he'd better drop it as soon as he picks it up. I'm sure he wouldn't have any problem dropping it though.
I'm just stating it would be easier to find an OF to convert than an current 1B. If Thomas is coming back next year at DH, I would like to see how Everett would do at first with an off-season of training and practice.

samram
08-10-2004, 02:44 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that moving Lee to first base treats defense at that position a little frivolously? I know it's not the most important position, but guys like Derrick Lee, J.T. Snow, Olerud, Mientkiewicz, Pujols, etc. can save a lot of runs by picking bad throws, or turning 3-6-3s. I have no problem trading PK, but moving Carlos to first just because it's an open spot may not be the best thing, unless his skills as a former 3B qualify him to play there. Obviously, if that move allows a very good player to come aboard, then fine, but I don't think 1B defense should be ignored.

I also think the bullpen should be upgraded considerably. If the starters can feel confident in getting a win by throwing six or seven good innings because they know the BP will shut the door in the 7th, 8th, or 9th, they won't feel as much pressure, and I think it makes the team more attractive to good starting pitchers because they can potentially get more wins, other things held equal.

Flight #24
08-10-2004, 02:46 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that moving Lee to first base treats defense at that position a little frivolously? I know it's not the most important position, but guys like Derrick Lee, J.T. Snow, Olerud, Mientkiewicz, Pujols, etc. can save a lot of runs by picking bad throws, or turning 3-6-3s. I have no problem trading PK, but moving Carlos to first just because it's an open spot may not be the best thing, unless his skills as a former 3B qualify him to play there. Obviously, if that move allows a very good player to come aboard, then fine, but I don't think 1B defense should be ignored.

I know it's been a while, but my assumption is that having once had the skills to play 3B (although not well at hte MLB level), Carlos would bea ble to make the transition to being at least a decent fielder at 1B. With an offseason to work at it, I'd think it's doable.

Otherwise, I think you're right - it depends on who's out there. Catalanotto was once a 2B, maybe he can play 1B.....

PorkChopExpress
08-10-2004, 02:49 PM
If we don't get rid of Crede because he's cheap, but we do get rid of PK, what about moving Crede to first and Lee to his former position at Third?

Mohoney
08-10-2004, 02:50 PM
In that scenario, I wouldn't mind seeing Carlos move to 1B and signing a guy like Catalanotto who can provide solid OBP in LF. Or maybe even a JD Drew if they have more $$$.

At SS, you can then go get one of a number of solid veterans who won't hit great, but can move guys along & play solid D.

However, bullpen is IMO the area of biggest need. The Twins win in a large part because of their pen. If you can shut teams down in the 7th - 9th, that's a huge asset.

I'm worried about that groin injury that Catalanotto has. I don't think it would be prudent to invest in this guy, unless there are no other options available.

I think a lot of it depends on what we get back for Konerko. Personally, I don't want to see him moved, unless we can find other ways to make up for his run production.

Wealz
08-10-2004, 02:55 PM
I know it's been a while, but my assumption is that having once had the skills to play 3B (although not well at hte MLB level), Carlos would bea ble to make the transition to being at least a decent fielder at 1B. With an offseason to work at it, I'd think it's doable.

Otherwise, I think you're right - it depends on who's out there. Catalanotto was once a 2B, maybe he can play 1B.....
Lee doesn't hit well enough to play first. Worse comes to worse sign Catalanotto cheap for a year and put him there.

Flight #24
08-10-2004, 02:58 PM
Lee doesn't hit well enough to play first. Worse comes to worse sign Catalanotto cheap for a year and put him there.
And yet his .864 OPS would rank 3d in the AL & 10th in MLB at the position. :?:

Wealz
08-10-2004, 03:16 PM
And yet his .864 OPS would rank 3d in the AL & 10th in MLB at the position. :?:
10th in MLB isn't good enough. Not when second, short (w/o Valentin), and third are question marks, catcher too.

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 03:17 PM
If we don't get rid of Crede because he's cheap, but we do get rid of PK, what about moving Crede to first and Lee to his former position at Third?
But Crede's pretty good defensively at 3rd.

fledgedrallycap
08-10-2004, 03:22 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that moving Lee to first base treats defense at that position a little frivolously? I know it's not the most important position, but guys like Derrick Lee, J.T. Snow, Olerud, Mientkiewicz, Pujols, etc. can save a lot of runs by picking bad throws, or turning 3-6-3s. I have no problem trading PK, but moving Carlos to first just because it's an open spot may not be the best thing, unless his skills as a former 3B qualify him to play there. Obviously, if that move allows a very good player to come aboard, then fine, but I don't think 1B defense should be ignored.

I also think the bullpen should be upgraded considerably. If the starters can feel confident in getting a win by throwing six or seven good innings because they know the BP will shut the door in the 7th, 8th, or 9th, they won't feel as much pressure, and I think it makes the team more attractive to good starting pitchers because they can potentially get more wins, other things held equal.
While I won't argue your point whole-heartedly, the fact remains that some of those guys learned the position while in the majors.

A very good first baseman is a nice to have, not an essential to win a division or or W.S. I would prefere a first baseman of Frank's caliber, one who is very good at picking balls but lacks throwing/fielding ability over the opposite. The numbers show that a first baseman just doesn't have to make the same number of plays as the other positions.

As the adage goes, build up the middle.

Flight #24
08-10-2004, 03:23 PM
10th in MLB isn't good enough. Not when second, short (w/o Valentin), and third are question marks, catcher too.
You got a way to find someone better? The only guys ranked ahead of him are signed to their teams for a while. Remember - it's all about being better than an available replacement.

chisoxfan79
08-10-2004, 03:36 PM
So who's at first and who's at SS?
I know I am going to get ripped for this but why not sign Doug Mankiewitz (sorry I can not spell his name) he his a free agent, plays Gold Glove defense, will hit .275 15-20 homers at the Cell, and will come cheap because of the poor year he is having at the plate this year.

DannyCaterFan
08-10-2004, 03:39 PM
Stop kidding yourself about Konerko. He may be a serious player that can produce some numbers, but how many double plays does he hit into? Give us some speed and defense to go along with the starting staff and we will be ok. It's time to blow up this core group of players. they just don't have what it takes!

Palehose13
08-10-2004, 03:39 PM
I know I am going to get ripped for this but why not sign Doug Mankiewitz (sorry I can not spell his name) he his a free agent, plays Gold Glove defense, will hit .275 15-20 homers at the Cell, and will come cheap because of the poor year he is having at the plate this year.:KW

Who?

samram
08-10-2004, 03:40 PM
I know it's been a while, but my assumption is that having once had the skills to play 3B (although not well at hte MLB level), Carlos would bea ble to make the transition to being at least a decent fielder at 1B. With an offseason to work at it, I'd think it's doable.

Otherwise, I think you're right - it depends on who's out there. Catalanotto was once a 2B, maybe he can play 1B.....
I can see an offseason of work allowing him to be solid over there- Pujols has done it, and Carlos is a good athlete. I just wonder if this offseason will be tinkering, or if there will be wholesale changes. With groundball pitchers like Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Shingo, I think the Sox want to make sure their infield defense is good. The Cardinals staff, which I don't think is very good, has performed very well this year, and I think a lot of that can be credited to having three, if not four, GG caliber infielders. OTOH, Boston has been hurt by IF defense, and they felt that had to trade a franchise player (albeit a FA to be) to upgrade themselves.

longshot7
08-10-2004, 03:48 PM
I think getting rid of Konerko & Valentin point-blank without having proven commodities replace their production is a REALLY BAD IDEA. I don't care what Jose's batting average is - he hits in the clutch, his power numbers & rbi's are very good to have in the lineup & his defense is still above-average. Put him in the Yankees or even the Angels lineup, we're not having this discussion. He will resign for less & I think Kenny likes him, so thanks for the inside info, but I'll believe it when I see it.

btw, anyone know Robbie & Carl's contract sitches for next season?

chisoxfan79
08-10-2004, 03:48 PM
:KW

Who?
Mientkiewicz the former Twins 1B

Mohoney
08-10-2004, 03:49 PM
Stop kidding yourself about Konerko. He may be a serious player that can produce some numbers, but how many double plays does he hit into?

About the same number as Crede, and HE'S not going anywhere.

Just keep Konerko. His run production is worth $8 million. If you want salary gone, don't re-sign Valentin.

Either way, any team with Jon Garland as a #4 starter isn't making any noise anyway. This guy is actually getting worse.

mdep524
08-10-2004, 03:49 PM
Well I have spoken with my source in depth yesterday and I grilled him about next year for about five minutes. This is what I got out of him. We are going to try to trade Konerko. He said they want to do this because we have way too many right handed hitters. He also said that if Crede does not start listening to Walker, he is as good as gone. If this happens, he said to expect to see Uribe at third. As for Jose.....HE GONE!!! He said he does not think that there is any way in hell they are going to resign him. Then I asked him if there is any way we will go after someone such as Matt Clement. He said that there was a good possibility of something like this happening.

Overall I think this is great news. We are trying to build the team through the pitching staff. If we can add a Clement type pitcher, our rotation would be unreal. Garland as a number 5? A lot of teams wouldn't mind having him as their number 3. As for Konerko and Crede. I would miss Konerko, but not Crede. I guess Crede is a stubborn punk, and we don't need people like that. And as for Jose, thank God he is not coming back. As many of you know I hate him, so this is outstanding news to me. 5 or 6 million for him? No way. I will give further news as I get it. I might have somemore today. I will most likely see my source again later on today.
This is good to hear. Trading Paulie is a great idea, as long as we get some serious talent for him. Dumping him a la Ray Durham for Jon Adkins would be a terrible mistake. The key is to target someone to trade for (Carl Crawford? A middle infielder?), then approach the other team and say you're willing to give up Paulie/Lee/whatever the case may be. What you shouldn't do is shop Paulie around and say "OK, what will you give me for this guy I am trying to get rid of?" I hope KW handles the situation correctly...

chisoxfan79
08-10-2004, 03:52 PM
This is good to hear. Trading Paulie is a great idea, as long as we get some serious talent for him. Dumping him a la Ray Durham for Jon Adkins would be a terrible mistake. The key is to target someone to trade for (Carl Crawford? A middle infielder?), .
I would kill for Carl Crawford, trade Konerko and a good minor leaguer I don't care.

mdep524
08-10-2004, 03:55 PM
I think getting rid of Konerko & Valentin point-blank without having proven commodities replace their production is a REALLY BAD IDEA.
Agreed, but Konerko is not a FA- if we trade him the idea would be to get some major league talent in return.

btw, anyone know Robbie & Carl's contract sitches for next season?
IIRC, Robbie is a FA and Carl has a player option for '05.

Deadguy
08-10-2004, 03:57 PM
Glad to see the Sox are going to try and move Konerko. Konerko and Lee are near clones of each other, so one of them needs to be moved, and I'd definitely prefer Konerko of the two, since Lee is the better athlete of the two. Even though I am a Konerko hater, I can't really bash him for anything he did this year, except for maybe hitting too many solo homeruns, but I won't miss him.

I'm not surprised to read that Crede isn't listening to Walker. I get the impression that a lot of the hitters on this team are selfish pricks that seem to go with their own ways, without listening to the coaching staff.

I will be sorry to see Valentin go. I know he's very unpopular on this forum right now, but he's been one of the best clutch hitters on this team since 2000, and he always gives 100%.

samram
08-10-2004, 03:57 PM
While I won't argue your point whole-heartedly, the fact remains that some of those guys learned the position while in the majors.

A very good first baseman is a nice to have, not an essential to win a division or or W.S. I would prefere a first baseman of Frank's caliber, one who is very good at picking balls but lacks throwing/fielding ability over the opposite. The numbers show that a first baseman just doesn't have to make the same number of plays as the other positions.

As the adage goes, build up the middle.
I agree that it's more important to be strong up the middle, and if moving Carlos to 1B allows that to happen, I'm all for it. I just don't want Carlos there because the Sox traded PK to get one guy who has a high OBP and can play LF, and the rest of the infield defense is the same. I wouldn't mind the aforementioned (I think by Flight#24) trade of PK for Hairston and B.J. Ryan, especially if the Sox went after Cabrera or Renteria at SS. Then a FA signing for LF such as Catalanatto or Dellucci (who has a higher OPS), or perhaps a trade for Randy Winn, leaves the Sox with a lineup of 2B- Hairston, SS- Renteria/Cabrera, CF- Rowand, DH- Thomas, RF- Everett, 1B- Lee, LF- Cat/Dellucci/Winn, 3B- Crede, C- Davis/other. It would be nice if the Sox could get Maggs back too, but under the above scenario, it may be cost prohibitive. If he was back with these other moves, he could hit third or fourth, and there would be a lot of flexibility. Or maybe I'm out of my mind.:D:

Deadguy
08-10-2004, 03:59 PM
I would kill for Carl Crawford, trade Konerko and a good minor leaguer I don't care.
Crawford was just offered a 6 year contract by the Devil Rays. They certainly wouldn't be interested in moving cheap, young talent.

Wealz
08-10-2004, 04:00 PM
You got a way to find someone better? The only guys ranked ahead of him are signed to their teams for a while. Remember - it's all about being better than an available replacement.
Lee will make $7.5M next year. Deal him and use his savings to improve the team. That improvement could be first base, could be second, short or in the pen or somewhere else. There's no law that says the team can't be better with a weaker first baseman but better second baseman and bullpen for example. Lee at first is not good enough bang for the buck in my view.

mrzerofan
08-10-2004, 04:02 PM
Who are they going to trade Konerko for?

mdep524
08-10-2004, 04:04 PM
About the pitching, I think Matt Clement is a bit overrated. he is good, no doubt, but this is a career year for him, an injury or a slump could be right around the corner in '05. For my money, I would go after Carl Pavano. That guy is a stud, quality starts almost every time out. Imagine a rotation of

Buehrle
Garcia
Pavano
Contreras
Garland

Wow. That would be one of the best rotations in the AL.

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-10-2004, 04:04 PM
I dont want to see konerko go. He's been my favorite white sox player since i was a kid. Hes my favoirte current baseball player and i would hate to see him on another team.:(:

Flight #24
08-10-2004, 04:04 PM
Lee will make $7.5M next year. Deal him and use his savings to improve the team. That improvement could be first base, could be second, short or in the pen or somewhere else. There's no law that says the team can't be better with a weaker first baseman but better second baseman and bullpen for example. Lee at first is not good enough bang for the buck in my view.
Ah - so you get rid of Lee. OK, that make s abit more sense, but I dont' see where you'll get a 1B that provides a higher OPS and costs anything less.

I'm also not sure you'll find a 2B that'll cost a lot less and provide enough improvement offensively to offset the loss of Lee unless you trade for him (i.e. Hairston).

chisoxfan79
08-10-2004, 04:08 PM
Crawford was just offered a 6 year contract by the Devil Rays. They certainly wouldn't be interested in moving cheap, young talent.
I know it is just a pipedream but I figured Tampa Bay is looking for some middle of the order thunder and they have more than enough speed. Trade them Honel or Mcarthy with Konerko and see what they say.

PorkChopExpress
08-10-2004, 04:08 PM
I agree with moving Lee and Konerko. We'll get good players in return, and this team we have just does not cut it. There is no reason to try and hold on to the core since the core has failed us for years. I like both Lee and Konerko, and trading them is nothing personal, but we need to shake this team up, not just trim the fat.

HomerCoach
08-10-2004, 04:18 PM
Carlos Delgado, Eric Milton, and Tony Womack

bafiarocks03
08-10-2004, 04:21 PM
LOL...if it were up to you we would have the same guys for twenty years. IIRC, you're a youngin' and I remember how I was attached to players on the '80's teams. Soon you'll get used to the movement of guys. Fortunately for me, my favorite player stayed on the Sox for a loooong time and is now manager. :smile:

yes i would.....im a youngin'....lol......i think im a little more than attached....i don't like trading...like when they traded D'Angelo and Miggy!! lol....:bandance: :D:

Tekijawa
08-10-2004, 04:37 PM
First we'll start out with Frank for prospects, then trade Paulie for Bulpen help and Prospects, then trade the Bull pen help for cash. Then we package Uribe and Harris for Darren Erstad, who we've wanted for a long time. Then we trade Joey Cora for Cash. Jose Valentin For Cash and a Cash to be named later, and put a sack of coins in at Short stop. We will deffer the Salary of the Sack of coins with out interest out to 2008 allowing us much needed Cap room to Bring Back estaban Loiaza and then trade him to the Yankess for Cash. Rowand CASH, CREDE CASH, Borchard is untouchable so we'll sign him to a longterm contract and trade him to the Expos for future considerations and a PTBNL. Garcia and Buehrle would be traded to St. Louis for Naming rights to their New stadium, Jerry and Ozzies Def Comedy field. Contreras will retire after this year and the Alomar Brothers will join him. Shingo will try and come back because he likes the city so Jerry will then Cut Man Soo Lee Sighting that he "just got them mixed up all the time anyway". Harold Baines will bat lead off next year making the league minimum and a rotation of Jon Adkins, Neil Cotts, Felix Diaz, Arnie Munioz and Gio Gonzalez will be the Start the season. Kenny will trade Sweeney and Cash for Rauch who will be the closer. The outfield will consist of Steff, Hangar and CHeeses, but cheese will only play home night games because of his Moderator duities here. I will be third base coach as I am the tallest and easily seen from any base. We will go with Brian Daubach at first and Ross Gload at third, we haven't had a 2nd baseman for a couple years now so I don't think not playing anyone there next year will make a difference. At Catcher the Mighty Ben Davis will be inked to a 10 year 7 million dollar a year contract....

My Pen just ran out of teal, so you guys can fill in the rest.

MushMouth
08-10-2004, 04:47 PM
First we'll start out with Frank for prospects, then trade Paulie for Bulpen help and Prospects, then trade the Bull pen help for cash. Then we package Uribe and Harris for Darren Erstad, who we've wanted for a long time. Then we trade Joey Cora for Cash. Jose Valentin For Cash and a Cash to be named later, and put a sack of coins in at Short stop. We will deffer the Salary of the Sack of coins with out interest out to 2008 allowing us much needed Cap room to Bring Back estaban Loiaza and then trade him to the Yankess for Cash. Rowand CASH, CREDE CASH, Borchard is untouchable so we'll sign him to a longterm contract and trade him to the Expos for future considerations and a PTBNL. Garcia and Buehrle would be traded to St. Louis for Naming rights to their New stadium, Jerry and Ozzies Def Comedy field. Contreras will retire after this year and the Alomar Brothers will join him. Shingo will try and come back because he likes the city so Jerry will then Cut Man Soo Lee Sighting that he "just got them mixed up all the time anyway". Harold Baines will bat lead off next year making the league minimum and a rotation of Jon Adkins, Neil Cotts, Felix Diaz, Arnie Munioz and Gio Gonzalez wil be the rotation. Kenny will trade Sweeney and Cash for Rauch who will be the closer. The outfield will consist of Steff, Hangar and CHeeses, but cheese will only play home night games because of his Moderator duities here. I will be third base coach as I am the tallest and easily seen from any base. We will go with Brian Daubach at fist and Ross Gload at third, we haven't had a 2nd baseman for a couple years now so I don't think not playing anyone there next year will make a difference. At Catcher the Mighty Ben Davis will be inked to a 10 year 7 million dollar a year contract....

My Pen just ran out of teal, so you guys can fill in the rest.

:rolling:We can also find a spot for Ginter! :ginter

jshanahanjr
08-10-2004, 04:47 PM
The only way I move Lee or Paulie is too retain Maggs and add a good starter and/or some bullpen help.

Cowch44
08-10-2004, 04:48 PM
First we'll start out with Frank for prospects, then trade Paulie for Bulpen help and Prospects, then trade the Bull pen help for cash. Then we package Uribe and Harris for Darren Erstad, who we've wanted for a long time. Then we trade Joey Cora for Cash. Jose Valentin For Cash and a Cash to be named later, and put a sack of coins in at Short stop. We will deffer the Salary of the Sack of coins with out interest out to 2008 allowing us much needed Cap room to Bring Back estaban Loiaza and then trade him to the Yankess for Cash. Rowand CASH, CREDE CASH, Borchard is untouchable so we'll sign him to a longterm contract and trade him to the Expos for future considerations and a PTBNL. Garcia and Buehrle would be traded to St. Louis for Naming rights to their New stadium, Jerry and Ozzies Def Comedy field. Contreras will retire after this year and the Alomar Brothers will join him. Shingo will try and come back because he likes the city so Jerry will then Cut Man Soo Lee Sighting that he "just got them mixed up all the time anyway". Harold Baines will bat lead off next year making the league minimum and a rotation of Jon Adkins, Neil Cotts, Felix Diaz, Arnie Munioz and Gio Gonzalez will be the Start the season. Kenny will trade Sweeney and Cash for Rauch who will be the closer. The outfield will consist of Steff, Hangar and CHeeses, but cheese will only play home night games because of his Moderator duities here. I will be third base coach as I am the tallest and easily seen from any base. We will go with Brian Daubach at first and Ross Gload at third, we haven't had a 2nd baseman for a couple years now so I don't think not playing anyone there next year will make a difference. At Catcher the Mighty Ben Davis will be inked to a 10 year 7 million dollar a year contract....

My Pen just ran out of teal, so you guys can fill in the rest.
....makes sense.

DVsoxfan
08-10-2004, 04:49 PM
If Pauly is moved it better be for bullpen help, proven veteran bullpen help. As for his replacement. I wouldnt be suprised if Gload was the everyday 1st basemen next year. Ozzie loves him, and he's a dangerous lefty bat.

wdelaney72
08-10-2004, 04:55 PM
Whoever said Jose's batting average doesn't matter becuase he hits in the clutch needs to put the crack pipe down.

These "clutch hits" might not be necessary if he wasn't an automatic out in his previous at bats. He sucks at hitting (the numbers don't lie, and he sucks defensively).

This team is built on the 3-run homer. It's clearly not worrking. Yes, I'm sure KW wants to dump salary, but it's also about changing the focus of the team to manufacturing runs with smart hitting and speed. This organization has been in love with C. Lee for as long as I can remember. He's one of the more consistent hitters on this team, who does not clog the bass paths. Moving Paulie dumps salary, dumps one of many Right Handed bats, and dumps another guy who is way to slow. Yes Paulie's numbers have been good this year, but for the sake of moving to a different (and hopefully a more productive direction) he's got to go.

I don't care of Crede gets traded, but Juan Uribe playing everyday is not the answer. He's proven this year to be nothing more than a utility player who needs to learn to look at more pitches (too swingy).

Some stupid team like the Mets, will overpay for Magglio. I doubt he'll be back.

I would be more than willing to give Everett a look at 1B. Many players have made the transition at the MLB level. I think he could do it. C. Lee's defense at LF has been such an improvement, I see no reason to move him.

Jerome
08-10-2004, 04:55 PM
Why not put our efforts towards resigning Maggs? A healthy lineup of Frank, Maggs, PK, and Lee could not be stopped. We saw that this year. Add Rowand in center, Everrett off the bench. Just get rid of Valentin.

If Frank and Maggs were healthy, we would be in first place, we would not be talking about all this tinkering, and we would not be getting ridiculous suggestions like sign Doug Mintkewiezchchcd whatever. How many games have we lost this year because of Konerko's defense and speed?


1. CF Rowand
2. 2B Harris
3. RF Maggs
4. DH Frank
5. LF Lee/Everrett
6. 1B Konerko
7. 3B Uribe/Crede
8. SS Anyone with a higher OBP than Valentin
9. C Ben Davis? Burke?


Ozzie will only improve as a manager, plus our pitching staff is shaping up nicely for next year. If Frank and Maggs are healthy, they will hit. Besides, what would we recieve in a trade for Konerko? I guess I'd be for it if I was blown away, but Sox fans are used to giving up a lot in trades.

SoxxoS
08-10-2004, 04:56 PM
If Pauly is moved it better be for bullpen help, proven veteran bullpen help. As for his replacement. I wouldnt be suprised if Gload was the everyday 1st basemen next year. Ozzie loves him, and he's a dangerous lefty bat.
Put the pipe down, or give me what you are smoking.

DVsoxfan
08-10-2004, 04:58 PM
Put the pipe down, or give me what you are smoking.
I'm just saying that it could happen. Knowing our management, coaches etc.

wdelaney72
08-10-2004, 05:05 PM
Why not put our efforts towards resigning Maggs? A healthy lineup of Frank, Maggs, PK, and Lee could not be stopped. We saw that this year.
Factually speaking, they were stopped quite effectively in 2000 against Seattle in the first round of the playoffs.

SoxxoS
08-10-2004, 05:07 PM
I'm just saying that it could happen. Knowing our management, coaches etc.
If Gload is our starting 1B, then it's about time for ALL of us to hang it up as Sox fans.

DickAllen72
08-10-2004, 05:08 PM
Why not put our efforts towards resigning Maggs? A healthy lineup of Frank, Maggs, PK, and Lee could not be stopped. We saw that this year. Add Rowand in center, Everrett off the bench. Just get rid of Valentin.

If Frank and Maggs were healthy, we would be in first place, we would not be talking about all this tinkering, and we would not be getting ridiculous suggestions like sign Doug Mintkewiezchchcd whatever. How many games have we lost this year because of Konerko's defense and speed?


1. CF Rowand
2. 2B Harris
3. RF Maggs
4. DH Frank
5. LF Lee/Everrett
6. 1B Konerko
7. 3B Uribe/Crede
8. SS Anyone with a higher OBP than Valentin
9. C Ben Davis? Burke?


Ozzie will only improve as a manager, plus our pitching staff is shaping up nicely for next year. If Frank and Maggs are healthy, they will hit. Besides, what would we recieve in a trade for Konerko? I guess I'd be for it if I was blown away, but Sox fans are used to giving up a lot in trades.


While I agree with all of that, how much would that team cost in total salary next year? Keep in mind we still need to add a proven fifth starter and a proven reliever to that mix.

If we did do that and JR spent the money on that roster, we'd be in great shape, barring multiple injuries again, of course.

Now for kicks, let's imagine what would have happened this year if instead of Maggs and Frank going down, it was Konerko and Lee who were out. Everett would have taken Lee's place and Gload would be in for Paulie. I think that team, with a healthy Maggs & Frank, would be in first place now.

Tekijawa
08-10-2004, 05:08 PM
I wouldnt be suprised if Gload was the everyday 1st basemen next year. Ozzie loves him, and he's a dangerous lefty bat.
The glove on his right Hand is even more dangerous than the bat in his left!:angry:

DickAllen72
08-10-2004, 05:14 PM
The glove on his right Hand is even more dangerous than the bat in his left!:angry:

You're thinking of Gload's outfielder's glove. Actually, he's an excellent defensive first baseman.

DVsoxfan
08-10-2004, 05:19 PM
You're thinking of Gload's outfielder's glove. Actually, he's an excellent defensive first baseman.
Though he has a good glove @ first, I never said I WANTED him to be the 1st basemen, I simply thought that it could happen. I dont want it to happen, I like Pauly.

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 05:24 PM
Well I have spoken with my source in depth yesterday and I grilled him about next year for about five minutes. This is what I got out of him. We are going to try to trade Konerko. He said they want to do this because we have way too many right handed hitters. He also said that if Crede does not start listening to Walker, he is as good as gone. If this happens, he said to expect to see Uribe at third. As for Jose.....HE GONE!!! He said he does not think that there is any way in hell they are going to resign him. Then I asked him if there is any way we will go after someone such as Matt Clement. He said that there was a good possibility of something like this happening.

Overall I think this is great news. We are trying to build the team through the pitching staff. If we can add a Clement type pitcher, our rotation would be unreal. Garland as a number 5? A lot of teams wouldn't mind having him as their number 3. As for Konerko and Crede. I would miss Konerko, but not Crede. I guess Crede is a stubborn punk, and we don't need people like that. And as for Jose, thank God he is not coming back. As many of you know I hate him, so this is outstanding news to me. 5 or 6 million for him? No way. I will give further news as I get it. I might have somemore today. I will most likely see my source again later on today.
While I'm sorry to see the players we've had for awhile depart, I think that it is necessary. If we keep dropping, it might be good to see this get started in the form of waiver deals. As I mentioned in the post-game thread, maybe last night's HR's helped Valentin's trade value. Unlike most of you, I'd like to see some names that we don't know -- high level prospects, rookies, and second-year players with promise -- but that KW has scouted well. While the right-handed line-up rationale makes sense, I think we also need to get younger. Even if this year's draft was as good as the Sox media have claimed, it will take awhile for those prospects to turn into players that can help us either directly or as trade currency. We could use some good young players in between.

PorkChopExpress
08-10-2004, 05:56 PM
Why not put our efforts towards resigning Maggs? A healthy lineup of Frank, Maggs, PK, and Lee could not be stopped. We saw that this year. Add Rowand in center, Everrett off the bench. Just get rid of Valentin.

If Frank and Maggs were healthy, we would be in first place, we would not be talking about all this tinkering, and we would not be getting ridiculous suggestions like sign Doug Mintkewiezchchcd whatever. How many games have we lost this year because of Konerko's defense and speed?


1. CF Rowand
2. 2B Harris
3. RF Maggs
4. DH Frank
5. LF Lee/Everrett
6. 1B Konerko
7. 3B Uribe/Crede
8. SS Anyone with a higher OBP than Valentin
9. C Ben Davis? Burke?


Ozzie will only improve as a manager, plus our pitching staff is shaping up nicely for next year. If Frank and Maggs are healthy, they will hit. Besides, what would we recieve in a trade for Konerko? I guess I'd be for it if I was blown away, but Sox fans are used to giving up a lot in trades.
If we hold on to everyone else but Valentin, there is no way we'll be able to get Maggs. Like someone else already mentioned, no matter what we offer him, some stupid team like Boston or the Mets will overpay to get him. Our only chance is to get him locked up now, and I don't see that happening.

habibharu
08-10-2004, 06:02 PM
out of valentin, crede, hurt, maggs, lee, and PK, no more than two should be back. and since maggs is pretty much gone, we should bring back hurt and lee. that would supply enough power for this team. unfortuantely because of KWs bonehead moves, everett will probably come back, so he'll be DH. frank will play 1b. you move uribe to third. you put either willie at 2b or sign hairston to play 2b. sign renteria to play ss, aaron will play center, lee in LF, and whoever we trade crede and PK for will either be part of the rotation or play one of the OF spots. davis and burke will platoon at C. rotation will be burly, freddy, contreras, garland, and a guy we traded for or diaz/stewart/pavano/perez

Gimm
08-10-2004, 06:09 PM
Konerko has a fairly high trade value now and many GM's feel he's just entered his prime, albeit later than most (he is 28). I advocate trading him only if it means the money saved goes toward signing some Studly McRaker, not if it means the money is pocketted and we get some Ross Gload clone.

Oh and anyone who'd rather have Renteria at 60 Mill/5 years over Valentin at 2 Mill/1 year is an idiot - yes, possibly an even a bigger idiot than that guy who wanted to give Orlando Cabrera 27 Mill over 3 last off-season.

Gimm
08-10-2004, 06:12 PM
I know I am going to get ripped for this but why not sign Doug Mankiewitz (sorry I can not spell his name) he his a free agent, plays Gold Glove defense, will hit .275 15-20 homers at the Cell, and will come cheap because of the poor year he is having at the plate this year.Because there is such a thing as a LIMIT. To the lenghts one is willing to go to win the division.

No Pirzinski. No Menkevic. No Hunter.

BainesHOF
08-10-2004, 06:42 PM
I said coming into this season that either Lee or Konerko should be traded. Theire trades values have only gone up since then. At least one of them must be traded because they are indeed the same kind of player - a good hitter who is slow and not very good defensively.

If I had to pick one, I'd be much more inclined to trade Lee. He's a big part of our problem. He's talented, but his attention span zones in and out much, much too much. For every good play, he commits two boners. And I'm sick of him not running balls out. On top of it, he doesn't always pay attention in the field. No excuse for that.

However, Konerko's trade value is at an all-time high now. Maybe we should trade both of them. Konerko has to continue batting this well at all times to overcome his severe lack of speed and his poor fielding. He's too streaky. I don't think he's going to put five years like this together.

So, you can trade them, and perhaps even Garland to fill in our holes. Let's trade Konerko and Lee to stockpile more pitching. Then trade Garland for a respectable position player.

Crede is not a major leaguer on a winning team. He must go no matter what. I've never seen a hitter struggle so much yet refuse to alter any of his swings. It's past the point of being ridiculous.

Uribe can be an everyday player next year either at third, short or second. Overall, he's a pretty good hitter when played regularly. And the guy hustles, which this team needs more of. Watch him run to first base compared to many of our other players.

Rowand has proved that he belongs in center field everyday. Hopefully he can relax a bit and improve his clutch hitting.

That is all for now.

HITMEN OF 77
08-10-2004, 06:48 PM
I don't care how much trade value PK has, you can't get rid of the guy. He's proven that last year was an off 1/2 year and putting up huge numbers this year as usual. Also, you don't want to get rid of a fan favorite. Jose, Crede and Maggs are your trade bait. PK, I think he's the only guys who hasn't landed on DL either.

Aidan
08-10-2004, 06:53 PM
I don't care how much trade value PK has, you can't get rid of the guy. He's proven that last year was an off 1/2 year and putting up huge numbers this year as usual. Also, you don't want to get rid of a fan favorite. Jose, Crede and Maggs are your trade bait. PK, I think he's the only guys who hasn't landed on DL either.I like Paulie as well and think he is a great power hitter. Everyone complains that he is slow. What first basemen out there are speedy? I can't think of any. He is making alot of money ($8 million) but Mike Sweeney of the Royals is making $11 million.

I wouldn't mind keeping Jose for a low price but if he leaves, Uribe can play SS. But if Crede is traded, we will need Uribe to play 3B and get someone to play SS. How can Maggs be used as tradebait since he will be a free agent after this season?

PorkChopExpress
08-10-2004, 07:03 PM
I don't care how much trade value PK has, you can't get rid of the guy. He's proven that last year was an off 1/2 year and putting up huge numbers this year as usual. Also, you don't want to get rid of a fan favorite. Jose, Crede and Maggs are your trade bait.
First of all, Maggs is not trade bait. No one will trade now for someone who can't play the rest of the season, and is gone after the season.

As for PK, someone will trade for him. There is always someone who needs a 30+ HR guy. He was one of the well-known snubs at the all-star game this year, and as we can see from Torre's love of Loaiza, people don't always look to past years, just the last year.

JB98
08-10-2004, 07:06 PM
Konerko has been the only consistent hitter on the team this year. Not a single poster in this thread has convinced me that he is part of the problem.

minastirith67
08-10-2004, 07:15 PM
I don't care who the hell goes (except maybe Frank) as long as this team makes the playoffs and has a run at the World Series.

Building a championship winning team needs to be the priority for Reinsdorf and Williams. I don't know if it is...and next season will be another opportunity for them to really try this time, instead of being half-assed about it.

Hangar18
08-10-2004, 07:19 PM
What you fail to understand is that we do not want Jose back. We could sign him if we wanted to, but my source said that we do not want to have him back. Jose is not coming back.This is dumb. Unless we get Nomar or Edgar Renteria, then we need to sign
Jose Valentin again. And do it CHEAPER THIS TIME. I know he will stay
for $2 million. Also, he is NOT a top of the order guy ...... keep him towards the bottom of the lineup and the guy is dangerous. Id like to see him stay at 7th or even 8th, but those spots seemed reserved for Joe Crede and the Catcher. As for Catchers, wouldnt it be nice to have a Jason Kendall behind
the plate ?? Signing Magglio would IMMEDIATELY make us legit contenders,
but ONLY if they get 1 more pitcher, and FIX the Bullpen this time.

What is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o Freaking Unbelievably Frustrating about the 2004 Season, is the fact that SOX fans everywhere told them to get another TopLevel Pitcher, Keep the Bullpen Intact, and address a Leadoff Hitter/Outfielder. Its also Frustrating that the MEDIA (Kiley, Giangreco, Mariotti, FOX, CBS among others) were too busy covering baseballs blowing up, Goats being summoned, Maddux Updates, Messiah Watches, Dusty Pandering, and Peeing-their-Pants with Conflict-of-Interest Giddiness instead of ROASTING this team for going into Opening Day with that Lineup. They did Nothing. So some of this, I blame on the Chicago Media. Had they been doing their job instead of acting like the backwater, high-school equivalent hacks that they are, the SOX wouldve felt Enormous Pressure to DO SOMETHING.

This team was put together so Precariously, so last-second, So 2nd rate Bargain-basement like, its hard for me to believe them when they let so
many Key Components go, and say with a straight face they Expect to "Contend", because its a "weak division". Dumb Dumb Dumb. Who said the division was "weak?"......the media. Anyone watching the Tigers knew some Offense would make them good. The Indians, have Built their Farm up very Nicely and got a few Good Players thru trades also (hear that Pirates/Expos/Reds/RedSox, get something in return instead of garbage)
Dont get me started with the Twinkies. The Media have been wrong about them too many times.

This team was a major injury away from being Exposed as a Fraud. 2 major injuries occured and here we are ...... thinking about 2005 already. STupid. This team wasted my time this year and im pretty darn mad still about the turn of events. Cmon? How hard is it to ADDRESS YOUR HOLES? JR the idiot
chose to make more holes and he was burned again. OH .........
but look at all the money he saved, not resigning the BullPen, Letting Colon go and NOT getting anyone to replace him, and letting Graffanino slip away.

Nice Job Jerry you jackass. you saved yourself some Green. But as your counting your money in October, reclining in your La-Z-Boy watching the SOX-Less Playoffs begin without your team for the 4th year in a row and 20th time out of 23, will it be all worth it? Wish I was your boss, because Id FIRE YOU for baseball ineptness. And your skills at Urban Planning and Stadium Design get an F too.

owensmouth
08-10-2004, 07:33 PM
What you fail to understand is that we do not want Jose back. We could sign him if we wanted to, but my source said that we do not want to have him back. Jose is not coming back.
Who is "we"?

Iguana775
08-10-2004, 07:50 PM
:tomatoaward

Evman5
08-10-2004, 07:58 PM
Here is my plan, after recent events I have only a couple minor adjustments.
At SS I think Guzman would be a viable option and I would trade Crede and let Uribe play 3b. As I predicted we traded E-Lo and hopefully we can still move Jose because hopefully he is not coming back. Our rotation is looking great and now instead of needed two pitchers in the offseason we only need one, PAVANO!

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http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon1.gif The official: Rebuild the Sox thread
I am so disgusted with this team right now that I decided I wanted to look at ways to fix the current team and change our overall philosophy. I would like to get other people's opinions on what plans of action they would take to make our club a solid playoff contender for the next couple of years.

1. I think one of our biggest problems right now is team speed. We don't have players they can go from first to third on a single. Teams routinely go from first to third and then they go on to score on infield groundouts or sac flys. It is actually ridiculous how many times the opposing teams score on us like this compared to how often we do. We need to try and rebuild with more speedy players.

I suggest that we go out and find a few guys that could do this for us. I would love to see us acquire Hairston from the o's. I also think that we should make a strong push for Edgar Renteria in the off season. I think he should be made our number one priority. He also has decent power, which would probably only increase at the cell. The trick here is to find guys with speed that can utilize it! For example NOT guys like Julio Ramirez (remember when he hit .400 during Spring training and then he hit below .100 before being sent dow). I am not ready to give up on Willie Harris yet, but he better start showing us he can be a solid contributer at the top of the lineup.

2. Clean out the guys they don't fit. THe first two guys I would trade from our team is Paul Konerko and Jose Valentin. Paulie's value is at a high and we should be able t oget a nice return on him. I mean I love Paulie as much as anybody, but he is the slowest moving thing on the planet. There are an endless amount of times were his lack of speed has cost us runs. He is also a double play machine which once again going back to the need for speed. WE need guys that can beat out the double play grounders, because the GIDP absolutely kills this team.

Secondly I am sorry, but it is time for Jose to pack his bags. I love Jose and his leadership, but he is the POSTER CHILD for everything that is wrong with the Sox. He is an all or nothing hitter and is way too streaky. He still makes too many errors even though he has improved his defense tremendously. I hate all this crap about how clutch JOSE is and how every time he makes a costly error he always seems to make up for it. Well we wouldn't need all this clutch hitting from him if he didn't put us in that position in the first place. I realize I am being a little harsh on Jose because sometimes he does come through even if he hasn't done something stupid in the game. It is wonderful that he provides us with all this tremendous power, however, I believe this is one of the reasons he strikes out so much. It is rare for a shorstop to be among the leaders in HRs and this is exactly why we should trade him. Some team will look at that power and say we can live with the low average as long as he provides us with the long ball. So If I were running the team, Jose would be gone to the highest bidder tomorrow.

3. Go out and find more pitching. We need to shift away from the philosophy of outslugging teams and instead of outscoring them, try to stop them from scoring. I would, if possible, trade Loaiza. He was defintely a one year wonder and we should try to get something for him because we will not be resigning him. In the Offseason I would love to see us go after Carl Pavano or Johan Santana. I have no clue what will happen to Santana after the year, but I do know he will get extremely pricey for the small market Twins if he goes to arbitration. So defintely go out and get two more pitchers, because I could live with Garland as a number 5. Radke is a free agent so maybe he finally wont be able to beat us!

So we could possibly have a rotation of:
Garcia
Buehrle
Pavano/ Santana (Pavano is more realistic)
Radke or another solid starter
Garland

4. Get Guys that can do the fundamentals. BUnting, moving a man over, hitting to the right side, sacrifice flys, hitting the cutoff man, make smart decisions. I suggest that we go out and get more players from the National league because everybody in the NL is forced to these things more often than in the AL. For Example, I consider Timo Perez the best bunter on our team right now. It seems like he is the only one that can consistently get a bunt down.

5. Let Magglio Walk. I would rather spend the 14 mil towards a solid starter and a guy like Renteria. A pitcher dictates whether or not you are going win 20% of your games. I would like to see us spread Magglio's money around and put it too fill more holes

My line-up for Next Year:
2b- Hairston Jr.
SS- Renteria
DH- Thomas
1b- Lee
LF- Catalanotto
RF- Everett
CF- Rowand
3b- Crede
C- FIND ONE!!!!!!!!/ Alomar

Super Subs: Uribe, Harris, Perez

I think Carlos could play 1b I have heard talk of moving him there before and seems like he could do that. I think Frank Catalanotto would come fairly cheap after this year and I think he would be a great addition. I am not entirely sure what I would do with Crede, because apparently he still has great trade value. However, I still have hope for him to become the all-star he was born to be!:rolleyes:

Well this is what I would do to fix our team for the upcoming season. I don't think It is too unreasonable. Trading Paulie, Jose and letting Magglio walk will definitely free up some cash to make some of these moves. Also we no longer have Koch's contract on our hands, so there is some financial flexibility, hopefully. I am not giving up on this season yet, but I hope that we can fix some of the flaws in our team. I think if we went into next year with this team we would have a lot of success. If you happen to read this Kenny, No Charge!:wink:

balke
08-10-2004, 08:14 PM
can we still keep the "Jose jose jose jose JOOse Jooose!!" chant, since Contreras is actually a player who deserves a chant like that?

Gimm
08-10-2004, 08:17 PM
How hard is it to ADDRESS YOUR HOLES?.
Hello, hole!

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 08:31 PM
Konerko has been the only consistent hitter on the team this year. Not a single poster in this thread has convinced me that he is part of the problem.
He doesn't have to be "part of the problem" for them to want to trade him. After the 1983 Western Division championship season, Lamar Hoyt wasn't a problem. But they still made a trade for a young short stop, who was on the team for many years. They had a hole to fill, and they traded one of their top players. The same holds here. We have a number of holes, and, as others have pointed out, he will be highly valued by other teams.

SomebodyToldMe
08-10-2004, 08:37 PM
can we still keep the "Jose jose jose jose JOOse Jooose!!" chant, since Contreras is actually a player who deserves a chant like that?
sounds good to me because he's the only jose that i like on this team.

California Sox
08-10-2004, 08:52 PM
Trade them Honel or Mcarthy with Konerko and see what they say.
Shh! KW might hear you! Seriously, why is it whenever we have a good prospect someone suggests making him a throw-in in some deal? Haven't we given away enough in the lastcouple of years?

longshot7
08-10-2004, 09:01 PM
How hard is it to ADDRESS YOUR HOLES? JR
I'm not even gonna touch this one.

anyway, to whoever accused me of smoking crack - (mmm.....crack) - give me some viable options for SS if Valentin goes. One that will replace his #'s and defense - and by viable I mean no Cubbie KoolAid (i.e. Renteria (not going anywhere), Nomar, Jeter, or Tejada).

Gimm
08-10-2004, 09:58 PM
Trade them Honel or MaCarthy with Konerko and see what they have to sayOh ya, trade two exceptionally talented and improving studs with an ace ceiling (if they stay/get healthy, knocking on wood) as well as a gritty fan favorite Slugger having a breaking out year at the age of 28......

Genius, I tell ya. :rolleyes:

Iguana775
08-10-2004, 10:12 PM
Oh ya, trade two exceptionally talented and improving studs with an ace ceiling (if they stay/get healthy, knocking on wood) as well as a gritty fan favorite Slugger having a breaking out year at the age of 28......

Genius, I tell ya. :rolleyes:
I do not want Honel PART OF ANY TRADE.

owensmouth
08-10-2004, 10:22 PM
KW may want to hold onto Konerko. He needs to have somebody to trade to reacquire Robbie Alomar next year.

jordan23ventura
08-10-2004, 10:23 PM
If Gload is our starting 1B, then it's about time for ALL of us to hang it up as Sox fans.
Not that I'm really advocating this or anything, but a Gload/Mintkiewicz platoon would be cheap and probably pretty effective if the Sox had to trade Paulie just to dump his salary.

jordan23ventura
08-10-2004, 10:25 PM
I'm not even gonna touch this one.

anyway, to whoever accused me of smoking crack - (mmm.....crack) - give me some viable options for SS if Valentin goes. One that will replace his #'s and defense - and by viable I mean no Cubbie KoolAid (i.e. Renteria (not going anywhere), Nomar, Jeter, or Tejada).
I believe Renteria has options. Besides, if you were playing for St Louis this year would you want to leave?

SoxFanSince67
08-10-2004, 10:25 PM
So goes my plan to purchase a Konerko Jersey when in Chicago later this month.

owensmouth
08-10-2004, 10:31 PM
He doesn't have to be "part of the problem" for them to want to trade him. After the 1983 Western Division championship season, Lamar Hoyt wasn't a problem. But they still made a trade for a young short stop, who was on the team for many years. They had a hole to fill, and they traded one of their top players. The same holds here. We have a number of holes, and, as others have pointed out, he will be highly valued by other teams.
By that time, Hoyt had a bit of a problem

JB98
08-10-2004, 10:50 PM
He doesn't have to be "part of the problem" for them to want to trade him. After the 1983 Western Division championship season, Lamar Hoyt wasn't a problem. But they still made a trade for a young short stop, who was on the team for many years. They had a hole to fill, and they traded one of their top players. The same holds here. We have a number of holes, and, as others have pointed out, he will be highly valued by other teams.

Fine. Let's trade PK and Lee. Maggs will be gone via free agency. This way, Frank can get bat third, and Borchard will bat fourth. Just great.

soxtalker
08-10-2004, 10:57 PM
By that time, Hoyt had a bit of a problem
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall that ever being mentioned as a reason that the Sox traded Hoyt. Hadn't he just won the Cy Young award also?

owensmouth
08-10-2004, 11:04 PM
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall that ever being mentioned as a reason that the Sox traded Hoyt. Hadn't he just won the Cy Young award also?
Who's going to admit that they knew? Lamar started taking the stuff during the playoff that year.

Lip Man 1
08-10-2004, 11:12 PM
Hoyt was traded after the 1984 season, not the 1983 one.

Lip

Gimm
08-11-2004, 01:53 AM
I do not want Honel PART OF ANY TRADE.
A year from now, Brandon MaCarthy might actually be a better pitcher than Honel.

In any event, I do not want to give up either. Those two plus Gio Gonzalez is the REAL future of the Sox. Cotts and Diaz are just holding the fort down for now.

HITMEN OF 77
08-11-2004, 12:56 PM
He doesn't have to be "part of the problem" for them to want to trade him. After the 1983 Western Division championship season, Lamar Hoyt wasn't a problem. But they still made a trade for a young short stop, who was on the team for many years. They had a hole to fill, and they traded one of their top players. The same holds here. We have a number of holes, and, as others have pointed out, he will be highly valued by other teams.And then becasue of that trade, they didn't make the playoffs for 10 more years and in reality they could have used Hoyt and made a run again in 1985.

maurice
08-11-2004, 01:38 PM
A year from now, Brandon MaCarthy might actually be a better pitcher than Honel.
IMHO, McCarthy already has more value than Honel.

Honel is a huge ??? until they figure out *** is wrong with his arm.

JRIG
08-11-2004, 01:59 PM
Not that I'm really advocating this or anything, but a Gload/Mintkiewicz platoon would be cheap and probably pretty effective if the Sox had to trade Paulie just to dump his salary.
Except they both hit left-handed, thus making a platoon worthless.

Gimm
08-11-2004, 02:21 PM
IMHO, McCarthy already has more value than Honel.

Honel is a huge ??? until they figure out *** is wrong with his arm.
Even without the elbow injury, Mac is passing him by.

Mac is actually filling out and gaining velocity as predicted, while even before his injury Honel did not throw as hard as he did in HS (high-80's vs low-90's) - which is strange since the organization at one point projected him to top out at 93-95 as he filled out in his early 20's. With his killer knuckle curve (two tilts) and a solid change up, Honel would have had a bright future with low-to-mid-90's velocity. Oh well.

Again, MaCarthy, Gonzalez and Honel would be my 3 untouchables. And I actually like Cotts and Diaz, too but if the trade is right, then you know.

OurBitchinMinny
08-11-2004, 02:40 PM
I want to keep konerko. But if you can get a lot for him I guess you gotta do it. Lee can move to 1b i think.

OurBitchinMinny
08-11-2004, 02:47 PM
Lee doesn't hit well enough to play first. Worse comes to worse sign Catalanotto cheap for a year and put him there.
Are you kidding me?

SoxxoS
08-11-2004, 02:58 PM
A year from now, Brandon MaCarthy might actually be a better pitcher than Honel.

In any event, I do not want to give up either. Those two plus Gio Gonzalez is the REAL future of the Sox. Cotts and Diaz are just holding the fort down for now.
I think Danny Wright and Matt Ginter were holding the fort down for Cotts and Diaz.

Gimm
08-11-2004, 03:19 PM
I think Danny Wright and Matt Ginter were holding the fort down for Cotts and Diaz.
Cotts never had control to be a top-of-the-rotation pitcher. Nor does he have a breaking ball or velocity potential on par with either Mac or Honel. He is still very much the ?

Diaz? What can I say, the guy chokes. Also, his fastball doesn't have NEAR the velocity and movement as advertised. Good slider-change combo though. Not a hopeless cause like Ginter or Glover, but not a blue chip prospect either. We'll see if he can max out his velocity potential in the bullpen if Sox switch to a 4-man rotation.

JDP
08-11-2004, 03:20 PM
My insider source says that we'll be tied for the division on opening day. *nods*